Ok, I don't have much more to add to discussion. I'll just leave it here and quote a couple sentences. Of course it's from retail, but I can easily imagine same situation in Vanilla: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20753178448

All I can say is Loot Council does not take into account those who work harder on their gear than others, infact it rewards putting in as little effort as possible, as people with lower level gear will nearly always get the upgrades.

Loot council is a massive red flag for me when joining any guild. Just don't use it.

Even on the slim chance the officers don't abuse it they are still human and will make mistakes.

I've been screwed over by loot council twice. Two different guilds. Two different games. (That's how dumb I am).

Never, EVER again.

There is one method, and one method only that determines your contribution and that's DKP. So either DKP or, as a compromise - /roll. (Because loot is tossed at you like beads at Mardi Gras)

Loot council is as good as the council running it.

"I've run out of arguments, here's a thread where people are debating the exact same things you've just argued against for the past hours"

Well, if you're going to bring retail into discussion, please try and find any guild that's using DKP and how many are using Loot Council. Can't find a single decent guild on Kazzak, Tarren Mill or Draenor (servers generally worth a fuck in terms of PvE progression) that still uses DKP.

Taking it bit by bit:

Jackass#1: DKP is more likely to allow people with lower level gear to get upgrades because they can just farm DKP points while getting carried by others. This of course depends on how your LC / DKP system is designed - to cater towards the lowest common denominators, or the people who are actually deserving of that loot.

Jackass#2: I just explained why DKP is also human and prone to bias in design.

Jackass#3: Sorry, the guy wasn't even raiding on that character at the time when he made that comment and the only thing he couldn't even finish the heroic raid which launches 1 month after he made that comment. Credentials aside, if I had 1g every time some random jackass complained "LC was not fair" just because he didn't get loot, I'd have a year of sub right now. Anyone who takes /roll as a valid loot distribution system is also a confirmed jackass.

And you know how I can tell that people who complain about corrupt LC are in the minority? Because it's still the most popular loot distribution system used by most guilds out there. There are far more people satisfied with this system than there are people upset about it.

I actually agree with Jackass#4, if you have idiots running LC you will get idiotic results.

I'm not sure, but it might fall under meme thread.

SpoilerShow

Yeah, in reality if you do something like that people will fuck off in an instant. Seriously, I dare you to conduct an LC where all your loot goes to 5 people and see if people can/will sign up for the next raids, see if you can run more than 3 raids before people quit.

I'd feel uncomfortable deciding who gets what anyway. Would never want to be on the council.

How about this then, my guild isn't looking to progress quickly. The premise of joining my guild is an understanding that people have lives, responsibilities, job, kis etc etc. It'll be very difficult for all members to earn DKP consistently due to other commitments. As such, I believe that for us a Loot Council would be a better solution. But our LC won't be looking at min/maxing for faster progression, we'll be looking at doing our best to make people smile. My guild members joined after reading a very transparent description of the expectations of being a member. AFK's, alt f4's and slacking, having babies sat on your lap crying into the mic at 2am. DKP won't work in my guild, imo, it'll be too situational for many to ever expect to win drops. Its a really tough choice to make. But I believe with the maturity of the community now there won't be any cry babies /gquitting when they don't get what they want. I'd rather run a raid 40 times and every time make someone happy, than run it 20 times to make 10 people happy so we can clear it a little bit faster. I don't know, maybe it's just me. I also don't want to spend half my evening tracking DKP, it's not fun, I've got shit to do too. I'll be relying on "grown ups" making "grown up" decisions and maybe making a sacrifice here or there, for the moral of the guild. Hopefully Dave the Tank may feel a bit empathetic to John the tank as he's had a tough time with his kids the last couple of weeks. So when that new shield drops Dave may just say, "Hey John, you take it bro". That's the guild I want to run. A loot Council by the people for the people.

Soupoftheday wrote: ↑

6 years ago

we'll be looking at doing our best to make people smile

Also, my wife, kids, and any IRL people I know won't be playing, and I don't care if you're an officer or not. If you're not in it for the love, and to share that love, then you won't be in it. Personally I believe Pamela who is a single mum of 3 kids and plays when she can should be just as entitled to a bit of loot when she's with us as Jack who raids every week is. Who's really more dedicated, the person managing a family, a house and a job or the guy who has the luxury of sitting at his PC all day? If Jack doesn't think it's fair he's in the wrong place. Why shouldn't Pamela have her moment!

That's just loot socialism in my opinion. Look at Venezuela.

In my experience, in the right hands, Loot Council unequivocally better for the success of the guild in regards to progression. Get the right pieces to the right people in order to achieve success. With that being said, if your leadership/council play favoritism or puts personal issues in the way, then your guild will suffer harder than a poorly run DKP system.

My vanilla guild on Malfurion started with DKP and ran into some issues early on with hoarding. People were turning down clear upgrade in favor of something else that they wanted. These upgrades were then being sharded and wasted.

A big discussion was made on our forums, we voted and scrapped the DKP system for a Loot Council system. Because of the switch, we lost a few members along the way, but in reality, those individuals weren't real team players, to begin with, and it was a positive loss.

Our guild thrived under Loot Council. Our Loot Council was extremely fair in all but 95% of the looting (we're human and make some mistakes here and there). If a close call came between two people in regards to upgrade, attendance was factored in. If that was equal, they rolled off. The arguments, the gossiping in /tell, the drama stopped. You knew exactly who was most likely getting which pieces first and you knew when you were guaranteed second, third, etc.


Overall, I think both systems work. I prefer Loot Council.

Merode wrote: ↑

6 years ago

That's just loot socialism in my opinion. Look at Venezuela.

Soupoftheday wrote: ↑

6 years ago

Also, my wife, kids, and any IRL people I know won't be playing, and I don't care if you're an officer or not. If you're not in it for the love, and to share that love, then you won't be in it. Personally I believe Pamela who is a single mum of 3 kids and plays when she can should be just as entitled to a bit of loot when she's with us as Jack who raids every week is. Who's really more dedicated, the person managing a family, a house and a job or the guy who has the luxury of sitting at his PC all day? If Jack doesn't think it's fair he's in the wrong place. Why shouldn't Pamela have her moment!

Soupoftheday wrote: ↑

6 years ago

Personally I believe Pamela who is a single mum of 3 kids and plays when she can should be just as entitled to a bit of loot when she's with us as Jack who raids every week is.

Soupoftheday wrote: ↑

6 years ago

Who's really more dedicated, the person managing a family, a house and a job or the guy who has the luxury of sitting at his PC all day?

I guess it's a hard concept to grasp. I get that, I'm not even sure it would be feasible at all either. It would require a guild full of trusting, empathetic, selfless and understanding team players who were in it for the love of the community feeling rather than the progression. I can see how that might prove difficult to achieve.

For loot council you need trust and comradeship within the guild, but if the officers are cool then it's great.
DKP really feels counter-productive, makes it possible to screw the other one over. I remember this guy, needed this weapon that nobody else did. Someone else just announced in the voice chat that he'll throw in some dkp even he doesn't need it, juust so the guy can't take the weapon for the least dkp possible, since "it's worth alot more for that to happen". So yeah.

Also, suicide kings is another good option for this (well anything is better than dkp really).

ToriK wrote: ↑

6 years ago

For loot council you need trust and comradeship within the guild, but if the officers are cool then it's great.
DKP really feels counter-productive, makes it possible to screw the other one over. I remember this guy, needed this weapon that nobody else did. Someone else just announced in the voice chat that he'll throw in some dkp even he doesn't need it, juust so the guy can't take the weapon for the least dkp possible, since "it's worth alot more for that to happen". So yeah.

Also, suicide kings is another good option for this (well anything is better than dkp really).

If you intend to compete for server firsts you should be using a modified loot council with the rules and metrics used to determine who gets what explained as in depth as possible. With a quality loot council decision you can know who is going to get what before the raid even starts.

If you want to just raid. DKP is fine. Individuals will be happy but your overall guild will suffer. Now if you dont mind this, it's not s problem.

Whoops, replied to the wrong post. Carry on.

DKP with class/spec or MT priority on important drops, plus LC for things like Thunderfury. This is optimal for the majority of guilds.
Pure LC is best for the super competitive ones though.

Mizu wrote: ↑

6 years ago

DKP with class/spec or MT priority on important drops, plus LC for things like Thunderfury. This is optimal for the majority of guilds.
Pure LC is best for the super competitive ones though.

Soupoftheday wrote: ↑

6 years ago

I guess it's a hard concept to grasp. I get that, I'm not even sure it would be feasible at all either. It would require a guild full of trusting, empathetic, selfless and understanding team players who were in it for the love of the community feeling rather than the progression. I can see how that might prove difficult to achieve.

In actual vanilla and TBC we ran pure dkp bidding and all; In Cata we ran EP/GP; on nostalrius we ran Loot council but had a point (dkp) system that tracked attendance, loot received, contribution, and activity to the guild that informed loot council decisions; During Legion mythic raiding we ran Pure Loot council consisting of officers; On Lightbringer we again ran pure loot council this time consisting of officers (including class leaders) and myself guiding discussion and representing a tie vote.

For classic we are running a more advanced proprietary system that is similar to dkp-guided loot council but much more automated and more transparent while also being collaborative with the entire guild.

I had less drama with loot council and dkp-guided loot council than any other system. Progression was also significantly easier and faster with these systems.

EP/GP is vastly superior to pure dkp but slows down progression by not targeting optimal distribution like loot council and also by creating a bizzare incentive to not take minor upgrades until you receive the major upgrade you want most.

dkp has similar issues in that people can not only waste points on items they can also target items to receive items out of optimal distribution.

The strength of dkp and ep/gp is they only minimally rely on the trust of leadership and are more transparent than a pure loot council system. For casual guilds, reoccuring pugs, and guilds that do not have strong leadership EP/GP and DKP are definitely the way to go unless you use GDKP.

For guilds with strong experienced leadership and those focused on optimal progression there really is no substitute for some type of loot council.

The downfall of loot council is that it's only as good and as trustworthy as it's council It also can suffer from a lot of implicit subconscious bias if the council isn't well organized and using objective measures to guide decisions.

For the progression minded raider I would always encourage them to find a LC or LC hybrid guild because if you can't trust the leadership with loot decisions than there are likely to be many other failings for the guild and you, assuming the ability to roll on whatever server you want (like there is now), can almost certainly find guilds that are better led.

I will always vote loot council, mostly because dkp is a pain in the ass to track and manage etc but also because I’ve been on the receiving end of dkp bias as MT where I basically bought stuff and the guild leaders/officers didn’t take any dkp from me for them because they liked having me around which sounds good in theory but you feel guilty for it so you don’t bid on OS items or end up sinking it into gearing up a friend or whatever.

Merode wrote: ↑

6 years ago

ToriK wrote: ↑

6 years ago

For loot council you need trust and comradeship within the guild, but if the officers are cool then it's great.
DKP really feels counter-productive, makes it possible to screw the other one over. I remember this guy, needed this weapon that nobody else did. Someone else just announced in the voice chat that he'll throw in some dkp even he doesn't need it, juust so the guy can't take the weapon for the least dkp possible, since "it's worth alot more for that to happen". So yeah.

Also, suicide kings is another good option for this (well anything is better than dkp really).

It depends on what DKP system you choose. With fixed price DKP it is not an issue.