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1 year ago (1.13.2)
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I’m sorry but nothing you can say will justify layering. Having played many years on private servers vanilla client, and seen packed cities which I have yet to see in classic... or like in a dangerous area, all the player skeletons and bodies not being there. Zone pvp is janky too. People whisper me for layer hops while they are pvping or to avoid pvp or to farm nodes on different layers.

I’m used to being able to sell potions using /s and /y in orgrimmar but it doesn’t work very well because everyone in city are in diff layers. Also Rp in storm wind is fucked up too... you never encounter random rp like, ppl sat on a bench. Because of layers again. It breaks up the community. They need to end it asap

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1 year ago (1.13.2)
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Yea, layering is definitely immersion breaking. It was blasted endlessly on reddit and other forums, but blizzard insists that it's necessary.

Even now we can see just how poorly implemented this was, despite all the bug reports of layer abuse that happened during the beta. To get a better understanding of how little blizzard expected of vanilla, look no further than 2 weeks before release. There were 3 servers to choose from for NA alone.

Yea, no shit we'll need layering with so few servers. Then the day of release you see they release like 20+ more servers to meet the demand. And there are still queue times.

Layerings problems span more than just immersion breaking and layer hoping. People have found out that they can reset raid bosses by layer hoping. They've been farming insane amounts of gear that normally you'd have to wait weeks to farm. Luckily, blizz finally responded to this and said they're going to fix the "bug" and ban people who were exploiting this. But a lot of people are saying the damage is done, unless blizz some how deletes literally every piece of gear and gold that came as a result of this exploit.

But I'm right there with you man. It sucks seeing in guild chat people asking for layer hops and all that. And it's also sad that private servers were able to more faithfully recreate the vanilla "experience".

   Stfuppercut
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1 year ago (1.13.2)
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I don't mind very much. And I don't think most players do either. I'm not sure why people are always setting themselves on fire over it.

   Kall Tinyhoof Selexin
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1 year ago (1.13.2)
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If you don't mind it you should.
Here's one extremely game breaking way to exploit layering:

Layering was a mistake from the start and now we're starting to truly see how big the fuck up has been.

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1 year ago (1.13.2)
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Bootymaster wrote:
1 year ago
All the player skeletons and bodies not being there.
Not disagreeing with you about layers, but the lack of skeletals is also due to a different change blizzard made. Each player only leaves a single skeleton now, and old ones despawn when you die. They were afraid of people writing things on the ground with skeletons. You're not going to see huge amounts of skeletons even after layering goes away.

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1 year ago (1.13.2)
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Blizzard needed to choose a system that would help with the launch load. Layering was one of the options. Layering was clearly the worst option. They chose it anyways. Even now, we have many players who shrug and support it... These are typically the same players who are not manipulating and abusing it. As one of the guys who has become pretty good at violating layering, I hate layering SO much... All the guys I know who abuse this system every play session, feel the exact same way; it was unnecessary and that there were better options available. I was pointing out flaws with this system months and months ago as an ignorant outsider that hadnt even tested the system... And most of the bugs I predicted made it through along with a whole host of new bugs that I had not predicted. The system is inherently flawed and is designed in a way that is easy to abuse.

A layered world where players can trigger phasing when they wish with a simple invite - obviously this is not going to end well.

   Justbe
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1 year ago (1.13.2)
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Cannot wait for this system to be gone.
I said when it was announced it could be exploited and would have unintended consequences. The instance bug alone is huge

   Stfuppercut
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1 year ago (1.13.2)
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I don't like layering but it does help us somewhat. Imagine having to fight for mobs. It would take forever to grind/quest. Yes, the exploiting is a bit much but layering does benefit us in some ways.

   Vlostek
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1 year ago (1.13.2)
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Chablo wrote:
1 year ago
I don't like layering but it does help us somewhat. Imagine having to fight for mobs. It would take forever to grind/quest. Yes, the exploiting is a bit much but layering does benefit us in some ways.
Yea, can you imagine? Gosh... If we had to interact with a bunch of other people in a massive world... Yucky. What if we had to... Fight... For resources or control of quest hubs instead of using layering to avoid war in Warcraft? That would be just terrible. All of this forced interaction causing tension and adversity that players would have to face together. A harsh world where you are incentivized to interact with others in an effort to survive and thrive? Yuck, yuck, yuck! So glad we have layering as a get-out-of-jail-free card whenever we want a shortcut. So glad I could seamlessly surf my way across layers all the way to 60 to avoid all conflict and then turn around and cash in on that same system while farming devilsaur skins. Yay layering! /s

   Justbe
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9 months ago
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1 year ago (1.13.2)
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Stfupepercut you can’t fight with your own faction. And you can’t complete quests in raids. (Also aren’t you the guy that abused layering with the dungeon exploit?)

It’s here and it’s a game. No way to avoid it except going back to pservers. Just enjoy the experience for what it is, a recreation of WoW vanilla, and take a break from the negativity circle jerk.

   Tinyhoof Selexin Hunter
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1 year ago (1.13.2)
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Transfered to a low population server. There's never enough people to create more than one layer. Plus there is no one running any end game content yet.

So this whole layering exploit hasn't touched this realm. Especially considering the population is so low, the AH barely functions past Lvl20. If you got anything worth selling, you wouldn't, atleast for awhile.

I know it's a pain in the ass and it's a cop out for Blizzard. But if layering is a huge problem I suggest rerolling on one of the several new realms. The ones that were made to address the queue problem(that didn't...). Or wait and see if they open free transfers once again.

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1 year ago (1.13.2)
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morbidmike wrote:
1 year ago
If you don't mind it you should.
Here's one extremely game breaking way to exploit layering:

Layering was a mistake from the start and now we're starting to truly see how big the fuck up has been.
This guy is all over the map about the economy and has some weird impression that items ought be set at a certain price and thats it.
He also fails to understand that a reduction in price is a win for consumers. He complains things are too cheap then cries about some prediction people will hoard things and increase the prices. Buying and selling items arent for you to intervene and decide who gets what, the quantity of what and for you to decide the cost or price.

World of Warcrafts "economy" is a terrible economy even without layers. Its just part of the game.

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1 year ago (1.13.2)
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Imagine thinking the game would have been playable without layering. Without layering, we'd all still be level 25 at this point. It'll be fun when it's removed though.


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1 year ago (1.13.2)
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Hunter wrote:
1 year ago
Imagine thinking the game would have been playable without layering. Without layering, we'd all still be level 25 at this point. It'll be fun when it's removed though.
Well, the alternative wouldn't be the current server populations without layering.

Layering enabled megaservers with tens of thousands of players. In a world without layering, and without any other population phasing technology of some sort, there would be no megaservers in classic.

I'm not saying layering is good, or that megaservers are good. But comparing layering to a server of the same size without layering isn't realistic. A single server with say 40,000 players online at the same time was never an option.

   Stfuppercut
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1 year ago (1.13.2)
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Hunter wrote:
1 year ago
Imagine thinking the game would have been playable without layering. Without layering, we'd all still be level 25 at this point. It'll be fun when it's removed though.
Imagine creating enough servers to accomodate all players at launch without layering. Oh wait- small indie company

   Stfuppercut
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1 year ago (1.13.2)
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Most people want to play on the big servers because of the healthy auction house, more guilds and people to play with together, faster instances and other bits that makes bigger realms better...

I prefer a realm that doesn't have queues and has a 10% max difference in faction sizes. I hate when horde is 30% more than alliance. Breaks the world PvP.

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1 year ago (1.13.2)
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Hunter wrote:
1 year ago
Imagine thinking the game would have been playable without layering. Without layering, we'd all still be level 25 at this point. It'll be fun when it's removed though.
Huh? There were plenty of other options... ... .... .............. Havent you been following any of the discussions about layering?

g0bledyg00k wrote:
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1 year ago (1.13.2)
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Personally, I think layering was a very good option. The population has died down enough, and people have gone deep enough into progressing their main characters, to soon safely remove layering before phase 2. Sure, one may cry left and right about Blizzard's s choices. But while you do so, I'll just cherish the fact that they gave us the game we wanted, and have some fun playing it.

Edit:

Pippina wrote:
1 year ago
Layering enabled megaservers with tens of thousands of players. In a world without layering, and without any other population phasing technology of some sort, there would be no megaservers in classic.
Good. I love it. I love the megaservers. I want precisely that.
Besides -- and know you in specific might not be making this argument, Pippina -- these megaservers don't disconnect the feeling of a tightly-knit community. I recognize players from low levels. I recognize enemies. I have my notepad with KoS list, and I have gotten revenge plenty of times. I know all the guilds.

Megaservers and layering was good for vanilla WoW, at least that's what I think.


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1 year ago (1.13.2)
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Here we go again :smile:

Layering exists, but it wont forever. It's not going to change for an alternate system, it will be removed. Accept it, or exploit it, and move on.

   Hunter
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1 year ago (1.13.2)
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Selexin wrote:
1 year ago
Here we go again :smile:

Layering exists, but it wont forever. It's not going to change for an alternate system, it will be removed. Accept it, or exploit it, and move on.
Thats nice, now back to the conversation - OP feels like layering "kills the feel", and I couldnt agree more! Why do people try to snuff out conversations that they dont want to participate in... You like layering @Selexin, thats great, a lot of us dont; we're having a discussion about that. I just feel like its such a childish response to a thread that has some good discussion. We talked about layering prelaunch. I outlined many of the issues we're seeing. You argued until you were blue in the face and disagreed with my prediction that layering would be easy to abuse and very profitable, you were incorrect. We can both agree that layering exists and will continue to exist until it is removed, I believe I stated that immediately after it was announced. Just because layering exists doesnt mean we cant criticize it or talk about how its ruining our experience though.

Its okay for us to like different things... Its okay that youre casual... Its okay that you dont understand how layering is impacting your experience or are intentionally turning a blind eye to its impacts. Ignorance is bliss and I wish I was as uninformed about layering as you are. Believe me, I genuinely do.

It really sucks that I heard what layering was and predicted exactly what it would become. It sucks that I was right. It sucks that I abused it a ton to gain an equal playing field. It sucks that phase 1 is worse than it would have been.

g0bledyg00k wrote:
9 months ago
Never making a single investment again until I 100% know it pays off.
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1 year ago (1.13.2)
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Stfuppercut wrote:
1 year ago
Selexin wrote:
1 year ago
Here we go again :smile:

Layering exists, but it wont forever. It's not going to change for an alternate system, it will be removed. Accept it, or exploit it, and move on.
Thats nice, now back to the conversation - OP feels like layering "kills the feel", and I couldnt agree more! Why do people try to snuff out conversations that they dont want to participate in... You like layering @Selexin, thats great, a lot of us dont; we're having a discussion about that. I just feel like its such a childish response to a thread that has some good discussion. We talked about layering prelaunch. I outlined many of the issues we're seeing. You argued until you were blue in the face and disagreed with my prediction that layering would be easy to abuse and very profitable, you were incorrect. We can both agree that layering exists and will continue to exist until it is removed, I believe I stated that immediately after it was announced. Just because layering exists doesnt mean we cant criticize it or talk about how its ruining our experience though.

Its okay for us to like different things... Its okay that youre casual... Its okay that you dont understand how layering is impacting your experience or are intentionally turning a blind eye to its impacts. Ignorance is bliss and I wish I was as uninformed about layering as you are. Believe me, I genuinely do.

It really sucks that I heard what layering was and predicted exactly what it would become. It sucks that I was right. It sucks that I abused it a ton to gain an equal playing field. It sucks that phase 1 is worse than it would have been.
Hahahaha, "It's okay that you're casual" pfahaha. Way to be "sneakily" arrogant and elitist. That's hilarious.


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1 year ago (1.13.2)
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@stfuppercut Classic exists, it has its own meta. Layering exists, and it won't forever. We can of course continue to have this discussion, as we have for 5 months - but I do often like to point out the futility of complaining about it into a vacuum.

It's ok :smile: enjoy your layering, its the most profitable thing you'll ever experience! Exploit! Profit! enjoy! You are so proud of your exploitation, don't try to stop it early. You got 1100+ devilsaur leather, imagine if you had no layering!!

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1 year ago (1.13.2)
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Hunter wrote:
1 year ago
Hahahaha, "It's okay that you're casual" pfahaha. Way to be "sneakily" arrogant and elitist. That's hilarious.
You get used to it. conform with @Stfuppercut or be deemed inferior and receive passive aggressive snide comments! :smile:

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1 year ago (1.13.2)
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I dont have any problems with layering.

   Hunter
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1 year ago (1.13.2)
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Justbe wrote:
1 year ago
And it's also sad that private servers were able to more faithfully recreate the vanilla "experience".
To be fair, they had population bloat. PS's purposefully amped up and clustered the servers to allow for 4x,5x,6x the classic server population. Neither Private servers nor blizzard have faithfully recreated the real classic experience when it comes to server popoulation / population management. It just so happens that most players, even those no changes people, actually do want that "Full World" mmo feel and would rather have population caps raised rather than split the populations into layers based on orriginal caps.


Assuming blizzard is telling the truth on layering, the world feeling empty / dead will not change when layering is collapsed / removed. Nor would we be experiencing anything different if blizzard didnt impliment layering at all. Each layer is theoretically a full population cap on its own (We don't now layer caps or counts for sure, but this is what we are lead to believe / current leading theory). Once layering goes away, the pop cap for the single remaining layer (THE server) will not increase, and queues will just be implimented. This means that instead of 3x layers all being populated with ~5k players, 2/3 of which you cannot see. You now have 1 layer with ~5k players. Either way, population density will not change and will still be (about) an average representation of server progression equally distributed across all the zones. The only difference is that now, all those other players on the server will be stuck in a queue waiting to get in, or realm transfer away. (Assuming we actually understand how it is currently implimented and blizzards intentions with the layer collapse.) One thing that will change is that as the population as a whole moves towards higher levels, those zones will feel more populated, but the rest of the world will still feel as empty or emptier as it is currently.

Your private server experience (When it comes to population) != vanilla wow, and unless blizzard intentionally impliments a change from vanilla to allow for increased player count from vanilla, apart from the layer hopping crap, your empty world experience will not change much if at all.

I also wish they would have just raised population caps rather than impliment layering, but to say that PS's re-did vanilla wow better than blizzard is not true. They completely changed the way the game was played with increased population caps, dynamic mob and node spawns, etc. They just did it different than Blizzard, and since most of the PS's were made by wow enthusiests (At least orriginally), those enthusiests got to solve the same problems the way they thought best, rather than the way blizzard thought best.

I also agree that layering has played out its usefullness and has now tipped the scales to being more harmful than helpfull. One could argue it was nessecary for opening or not, but now it needs to go away. I havent heard of any arguments to keep if any longer.

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