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1 year ago (1.13.2)
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Hey guys, I'm thinking of rolling a Shaman for my second character. However I've been researching it and I have two questions that impact my decision of how am I going to play. Would appreciate any insight you can give me!

1. I want to PvP as Elemental, but I also want to raid. As I understand it I will almost always be asked to heal raids instead of DPS, which I don't mind. But as this is an alt I think paying 50g every time I want to swap playing between PvE and PvP is too costly, and I will most likely be pugging all raids with this character, so I'm thinking of healing with the 30/0/21 spec I will be PvPing with. From what I've read I should have little problems up until AQ, but will I ever be picked for AQ and Naxx pug groups with this spec, even months after the raids are released?

I don't know if I'll always be stigmatized for not having Mana Tide Totem or not, even if technically the better geared and experienced raid would make up for the lack of it. Plus it's a pug doing a raid that's been out for a while so I'd assume less people would care. But I know some people take Vanilla raiding super seriously, so I don't know how often that attitude would be carried over into pugs.


2. How big of a deal is the increased hitbox range on Tauren as Elemental? Does it make kiting that much more difficult? I really want Warstomp for all those combos with Iron Grenade in PvP that are otherwise impossible without it, but having a larger hitbox while never utilizing the Tauren's increased melee range seems like a big disadvantage.

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1 year ago (1.13.2)
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So, a couple things:

Gear almost always outstrips spec. If you have a decent set of healing gear, you could be entirely specced outside of Resto and get by.

If you're mostly relying on pugging, not sure if you should be worried about AQ/Naxx. At the same time, if you have a guild of PvPers to play with, you could just play a pvp resto talent spec. Don't worry about respeccing all the time. The build you said is fine. And if you want to become a committed pvp and pve healer, then work out a spec for it. But again, gear almost always carries the day over spec.

I can't speak to the hitbox thing with elemental, I'll leave it up to the hardcore PvP bros, but at the end of the day, level a character that you can stare at for 60 levels.

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Gensei wrote:
1 year ago
So, a couple things:

Gear almost always outstrips spec. If you have a decent set of healing gear, you could be entirely specced outside of Resto and get by.

If you're mostly relying on pugging, not sure if you should be worried about AQ/Naxx. At the same time, if you have a guild of PvPers to play with, you could just play a pvp resto talent spec. Don't worry about respeccing all the time. The build you said is fine. And if you want to become a committed pvp and pve healer, then work out a spec for it. But again, gear almost always carries the day over spec.

I can't speak to the hitbox thing with elemental, I'll leave it up to the hardcore PvP bros, but at the end of the day, level a character that you can stare at for 60 levels.
I was wondering about this because when doing some research I saw quite a few people saying that not having mana tide is a big deal, that people will be moved in and out of healer groups just for it, and when things go wrong I'll be an easy target for blame for not having it. So from this I got the impression that without it I will be passed over often. Not sure if this is true or not.

Why do you say I shouldn't be worried about AQ/Naxx if I am pugging? Of course there will be little pugs when they first release, but that won't always be the case right? Unfortunately I have to rely on pugs because I can't commit to a second guild and I'm not sure my guild will be doing alt runs yet. I want to PvP as elemental anyway.

About the hitbox, I don't mind looking at a Tauren but I don't want to put myself at unnecessary disadvantage. Luckily I read that items like Orb of Deception, Noggenfogger's Elixir and Savory Deviate Delight will bring your hitbox down to the same as other races when in use. So that will be an additional necessary expense as a Tauren, but War Stomp is worth it.

Thanks so much for the help!

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1 year ago (1.13.2)
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Apav wrote:
1 year ago
As I understand it I will almost always be asked to heal raids instead of DPS, which I don't mind.
Not necessarily, if you're not aiming for world first or fast progression you should be fine. But also consider enh as a dps alternative.
Apav wrote:
1 year ago
How big of a deal is the increased hitbox range on Tauren as Elemental?
Tauren is funnily enough mostly used in premades. Judging by your text, I'd say go Orc.

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1 year ago (1.13.2)
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Apav wrote:
1 year ago
I want to PvP as Elemental, but I also want to raid. As I understand it I will almost always be asked to heal raids instead of DPS, which I don't mind. But as this is an alt I think paying 50g every time I want to swap playing between PvE and PvP is too costly, and I will most likely be pugging all raids with this character, so I'm thinking of healing with the 30/0/21 spec I will be PvPing with. From what I've read I should have little problems up until AQ, but will I ever be picked for AQ and Naxx pug groups with this spec, even months after the raids are released?
I've never PuG'd AQ and Naxx, so I can't speak to that, but you will heal just fine for MC PuGs with 30/0/21. You can keep a separate set of gear that focuses on +healing and mp5, and then go for +damage for your elemental PvP fun.

Apav wrote:
1 year ago
How big of a deal is the increased hitbox range on Tauren as Elemental? Does it make kiting that much more difficult? I really want Warstomp for all those combos with Iron Grenade in PvP that are otherwise impossible without it, but having a larger hitbox while never utilizing the Tauren's increased melee range seems like a big disadvantage.
As a healer I feel that avoiding Rogue stunlocks or even Warrior intercepts with Hardiness will be more useful than War Stomp overall. For that reason I'd pick Orc, and it would also eliminate your concern stated above. Your matchups will indeed be affected by the hitbox, but I can't comment on how often that would realistically translate into a disadvantage in PvP situations. Will it have caused you to lose one out of every ten fights that you would otherwise have won if you had a normal hitbox? I have no idea. It's just another factor in your cost-benefit analysis to take into account.

This is a good read for you: https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwow/com ... en_hitbox/

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1 year ago (1.13.2)
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You wont have to respec. The 30/0/21 build is just fine. Sure you probably won't be topping any meters, but honestly, mostly people just want you for the windfury totem anyway. Also, lacking manatide isn't a huge deal. Manatide is overrated in my opinion. Sure it gives AoE mana regen to your group, but it's such a small amount of mana that it just makes me wish a druid cast innervate on 1 person instead.

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1 year ago (1.13.2)
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As long as you have healing gear on hand, then you don't need to spec in resto.

Leeway / taruen massive range in melee:

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1 year ago (1.13.2)
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@Apav

hey Apav, what did you settle on? still going shaman?

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1 year ago (1.13.2)
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I can't speak much on the first point as I don't have any first-hand experience, but from what I've read by trolling the Shaman discord for a few months, yes, 30/0/21 will get you through the first two raid tiers no problem as a healer as long as you're geared appropriately for healing. It's not optimal and mana tide is nice to have, but you can still get in there and sling chain heals just fine.

Regarding the PVP race choice, War Stomp is great because Shaman is the only class without some form of "hard" CC, so War Stomp fills that void, which gives you enough time to pop a Lesser Healing Wave or go for a kill with CL+Shock(+nova totem if you really wanna go nuts). It's also helpful as a secondary interrupt when your Earth Shock is on cooldown. One extra little bonus is that Tauren's hearthstone animation is the same as their healing animations, which is not the case for Orcs, and can be helpful for baiting out interrupts (assuming your opponent doesn't have enemy cast bars up, or even knows the difference in animations).

That said, you can also get these combos and free heals with Iron Grenades, whereas you can't get the Orc Hardiness benefit from anything else. Consider that every non-Shaman class has access to a stun either in their main kit or through talents, so stuns are going to come up a lot in PVP. I'm not sure if War Stomp and Grenades share DRs (I've heard Grenades count as an "incapacitate" rather than a stun, but I've also heard Orc stun resist works on grenades, so I'm not sure), so someone more knowledgeable than me could fill you in better there.

In any case, most hardcore PVPers are going to tell you to go Orc for any class that can be Orc, just because the benefit of hardiness is so nice. I know your question was mostly about hitbox size, but since you're primarily going Ele, yes it's going to mainly just be a disadvantage. I tend to have a hard enough time getting away from persistent melees as an Orc. If you truly want to play Tauren more or just can't stand looking at Orcs though you'll still find plenty of success (and while I've enjoyed having Hardiness here, there are definitely times I wished I had war stomp like my pserver Tauren Shaman).

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1 year ago (1.13.2)
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Thanks so much for the help guys! I really appreciate it.

rijndael wrote:
1 year ago
I've never PuG'd AQ and Naxx, so I can't speak to that, but you will heal just fine for MC PuGs with 30/0/21. You can keep a separate set of gear that focuses on +healing and mp5, and then go for +damage for your elemental PvP fun.
You bring up a good point. I'm sure they weren't pugged back in Vanilla, but I'm not sure if they were on private servers that frequently.
rijndael wrote:
1 year ago
As a healer I feel that avoiding Rogue stunlocks or even Warrior intercepts with Hardiness will be more useful than War Stomp overall. For that reason I'd pick Orc, and it would also eliminate your concern stated above. Your matchups will indeed be affected by the hitbox, but I can't comment on how often that would realistically translate into a disadvantage in PvP situations. Will it have caused you to lose one out of every ten fights that you would otherwise have won if you had a normal hitbox? I have no idea. It's just another factor in your cost-benefit analysis to take into account.

This is a good read for you: https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwow/com ... en_hitbox/
Thanks so much for the video. I learned that masking effects like Orb of Deception, Noggenfogger's Elixir, and Deviate Delight will negate the increased hitbox and changes that come with it. I'm quite intrigued by the idea of playing a Human Shaman now, so I'm going to go with this. I plan to play Ele, not heal in PvP. I was drawn to the spec by these big combos in the first place, and War Stomp will make it easier for me to accomplish that. I don't really mind missing out on the stun resistance since I already see myself playing like I have one shot to do these combos and if they don't work out I'm dead anyway. The increased hitbox was another story because it would make it much harder to kite, but this isn't an issue for me now that I know I can negate it at will.
Caperfin wrote:
1 year ago
@Apav

hey Apav, what did you settle on? still going shaman?
Shaman was always the plan! My decision was just between Resto and Ele as well as what race. But it's settled, I'm going to play a Tauren/Human hybrid (thanks to Deviate Delight), heal as Ele in PvE and see how far that will take me. :)
Grozlam wrote:
1 year ago
I can't speak much on the first point as I don't have any first-hand experience, but from what I've read by trolling the Shaman discord for a few months, yes, 30/0/21 will get you through the first two raid tiers no problem as a healer as long as you're geared appropriately for healing. It's not optimal and mana tide is nice to have, but you can still get in there and sling chain heals just fine.

Regarding the PVP race choice, War Stomp is great because Shaman is the only class without some form of "hard" CC, so War Stomp fills that void, which gives you enough time to pop a Lesser Healing Wave or go for a kill with CL+Shock(+nova totem if you really wanna go nuts). It's also helpful as a secondary interrupt when your Earth Shock is on cooldown. One extra little bonus is that Tauren's hearthstone animation is the same as their healing animations, which is not the case for Orcs, and can be helpful for baiting out interrupts (assuming your opponent doesn't have enemy cast bars up, or even knows the difference in animations).

That said, you can also get these combos and free heals with Iron Grenades, whereas you can't get the Orc Hardiness benefit from anything else. Consider that every non-Shaman class has access to a stun either in their main kit or through talents, so stuns are going to come up a lot in PVP. I'm not sure if War Stomp and Grenades share DRs (I've heard Grenades count as an "incapacitate" rather than a stun, but I've also heard Orc stun resist works on grenades, so I'm not sure), so someone more knowledgeable than me could fill you in better there.

In any case, most hardcore PVPers are going to tell you to go Orc for any class that can be Orc, just because the benefit of hardiness is so nice. I know your question was mostly about hitbox size, but since you're primarily going Ele, yes it's going to mainly just be a disadvantage. I tend to have a hard enough time getting away from persistent melees as an Orc. If you truly want to play Tauren more or just can't stand looking at Orcs though you'll still find plenty of success (and while I've enjoyed having Hardiness here, there are definitely times I wished I had war stomp like my pserver Tauren Shaman).
These are all very good points, thanks! I'm pretty sure engineering grenades were stuns in Vanilla and were changed to incapacitate in TBC. Not sure if they share DRs either. As I said above I'm not too remissed to lose that extra stun resist since I already planned to live and die by these combos anyway. That's why War Stomp is so desirable to me, it will make doing these combos easier and even if it shares a DR with engineering grenades I can still space them out. Also as I mentioned above, I found out you can negate the hitbox issues with things like Orb of Deception, Noggenfogger's Elixir, and Deviate Delight, so the hitbox issue isn't even an issue if you don't mind not looking like a Tauren and can afford it!

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1 year ago (1.13.2)
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Apav wrote:
1 year ago
1. I want to PvP as Elemental, but I also want to raid.
Youre going to find three answers. Youre going to find the happy-silly-fun-time answer where you hear that everything is viable and that everything can be completed with 39 characters and thus everything is viable. Youre going to hear that if you arent min/maxing youre a piece of garbage. And youre going to hear the more rational answer that is, your opportunities as this spec will be VERY VERY small in PvE. Almost non-existant.
Apav wrote:
1 year ago
2. How big of a deal is the increased hitbox range on Tauren as Elemental? Does it make kiting that much more difficult?
Yes. Its suboptimal. Playing as a Tauren Ele sham in PvP is not as good as your other options available.

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Stfuppercut wrote:
1 year ago
Apav wrote:
1 year ago
1. I want to PvP as Elemental, but I also want to raid.
Youre going to find three answers. Youre going to find the happy-silly-fun-time answer where you hear that everything is viable and that everything can be completed with 39 characters and thus everything is viable. Youre going to hear that if you arent min/maxing youre a piece of garbage. And youre going to hear the more rational answer that is, your opportunities as this spec will be VERY VERY small in PvE. Almost non-existant.
All replies in this thread have been seemingly level headed, no one is telling me I'll breeze through the content or will never step in a raid. It seems the majority are saying I won't be optimal but I'll be able to get by. Because gear is more important than spec so as long as I have healing gear I'll be mostly fine. That Mana Tide Totem isn't a make or break deal, and that most people just want Shaman mainly for Windfury totem and aren't expecting Shamans to top healing meters anyway. Does all of this match with what you would consider having VERY VERY small almost non-existent opportunities in PvE?

To me it doesn't, it sounds like it's a bit more than that. Unless these people are referring to the first few raids and you're referring to all raids, factoring in AQ and Naxx with that assessment. I fully understand I won't be able to step into AQ and Naxx right away which is why I was referring to months after release when people are more geared and are doing the raid more smoothly. For situations where a raid lead doesn't mind taking someone with a suboptimal spec because they know the raid can make up for it, but are down a Shaman and can't find another.

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Apav wrote:
1 year ago
Does all of this match with what you would consider having VERY VERY small almost non-existent opportunities in PvE?
Yes. Because while you wont need to be speccd appropriately, others will be willing to and they will often be brought instead. The conversation is not whether something can be done, rather if it is worth doing. You are playing on a mega server... They will just find someone else in most cases.
Apav wrote:
1 year ago
To me it doesn't, it sounds like it's a bit more than that. Unless these people are referring to the first few raids and you're referring to all raids, factoring in AQ and Naxx with that assessment. I fully understand I won't be able to step into AQ and Naxx right away which is why I was referring to months after release when people are more geared and are doing the raid more smoothly. For situations where a raid lead doesn't mind taking someone with a suboptimal spec because they know the raid can make up for it, but are down a Shaman and can't find another.
I'm looking at all of vanilla in expectation that you will want to find roots and begin to network within a guild or group of players. Running suboptimal specs is mostly about the leverage you wield within a specific community. If you know the right people and have networked properly, you can play any spec regardless of how awful it is. Because value comes in many forms. Perhaps you wont provide as much value as someone else within a raid, but through networking you have found value in other ways, like friendship/companionship.

If I wanted to choose a suboptimal build, I would start by playing something optimal. I would provide a raid team value. I would slowly build my offspec gear. When BG's released in phase 3 (running a PvP build before this is silly), I would start to make a transition into my Ele build and secure a spot on a premade BG team where I could provide high value. I would then begin to bridge that conversation with the guild during my transition and ensure they were onboard with my new spec.

I run 2 raid teams. If I ask 10 paladins if anyone wants to play ret, all 10 will tell me they do. If I ask 10 priests who wants to go shadow, all 10 will jump at the opportunity. Everyone wants a free pass to go memetarded. Why? They are fun, unique specs that allow you to play something incredibly selfish and gear in a way that is SUPER fun outside of raids. Allowing one guy to meme, especially if he hasnt earned his stripes, causes more issues than a suboptimal spec is worth. Be diplomatic if you want to meme.

Can a raid run an Ele? Of course. Will they? Probably not. If they do, it probably wont be you unless youve played your cards right.

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1 year ago (1.13.2)
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Stfuppercut wrote:
1 year ago
I'm looking at all of vanilla in expectation that you will want to find roots and begin to network within a guild or group of players.
This is the line of value @Apav. If you find a Guild and make your intentions clear early, you will have no problems (that's assuming they accept your decision, if not, find a guild who do). Don't mislead your guild with your intentions and you will be fine, even if you aren't given loot priority over mages etc.

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These are all very good points, thank you both.

Stfuppercut wrote:
1 year ago
I'm looking at all of vanilla in expectation that you will want to find roots and begin to network within a guild or group of players. Running suboptimal specs is mostly about the leverage you wield within a specific community. If you know the right people and have networked properly, you can play any spec regardless of how awful it is. Because value comes in many forms. Perhaps you wont provide as much value as someone else within a raid, but through networking you have found value in other ways, like friendship/companionship.
Selexin wrote:
1 year ago
This is the line of value @Apav. If you find a Guild and make your intentions clear early, you will have no problems (that's assuming they accept your decision, if not, find a guild who do). Don't mislead your guild with your intentions and you will be fine, even if you aren't given loot priority over mages etc.
Something worth noting that this is a 3rd or 4th alt. Even if my guild does alt runs, we won't be doing 3rd alt runs, and even though I have a lot of free time I don't think I'll be able to commit to another guild. The plan for any alt after #2 was always to play when I feel like it and don't commit to anything on that character, whether that be premade BGs or guild raids outside of pugging. So it might be a bit harder to build relationships with pug groups unless there are notable frequent long-running ones with a core group of people frequently joining that I could be a regular in.

Stfuppercut wrote:
1 year ago
If I wanted to choose a suboptimal build, I would start by playing something optimal. I would provide a raid team value. I would slowly build my offspec gear. When BG's released in phase 3 (running a PvP build before this is silly), I would start to make a transition into my Ele build and secure a spot on a premade BG team where I could provide high value. I would then begin to bridge that conversation with the guild during my transition and ensure they were onboard with my new spec.
I read that Ele Shamans are very weak starting out in PvP but it's the spec that benefits most from AQ gear (I read it's a night and day difference). So like you said, it seems the very obvious to me now that the only good choice is to start off as Resto, build up an Ele offspec but instead of switching around Phase 3 I think I'll switch around Phase 5. This allows me more time to get better gear for both sets, and because of the fact that it's weak in PvP in early Vanilla gear and this is a lower priority alt that will be getting gear less frequently, I may as well not even bother with Ele for BGs in Phase 3 and maybe Phase 4.

Stfuppercut wrote:
1 year ago
I run 2 raid teams. If I ask 10 paladins if anyone wants to play ret, all 10 will tell me they do. If I ask 10 priests who wants to go shadow, all 10 will jump at the opportunity. Everyone wants a free pass to go memetarded. Why? They are fun, unique specs that allow you to play something incredibly selfish and gear in a way that is SUPER fun outside of raids. Allowing one guy to meme, especially if he hasnt earned his stripes, causes more issues than a suboptimal spec is worth. Be diplomatic if you want to meme.
I don't like playing suboptimal or meme specs because I want to offer full value to the raid, and if I could respec back and forth every time I would. But I'll already be constantly respeccing on two or three other characters. I don't think I could afford frequent respeccing on yet another, and this alt is already lower on the priority list. If you want to play so many alts at some point you have to be willing to cut corners a bit on the lower priority alts. But I understand the consequences of that, I'll always be honest about it and I'm fine with only going with groups that are still willing to take me.

Stfuppercut wrote:
1 year ago
Can a raid run an Ele? Of course. Will they? Probably not. If they do, it probably wont be you unless youve played your cards right.
I never said I wanted to DPS as Ele. I wanted to heal as Ele because I was under the assumption that something suboptimal as that is still more valuable than DPSing as Ele.

So it's settled then, I'll go Resto then until I have an Ele offset that can be considered geared for PvP which probably won't be until AQ. I guess my final question becomes then, how feasible will it be to pug AQ or Naxx either by DPSing with an Ele spec in AQ/Naxx Ele gear, or healing with an Ele spec in AQ/Naxx Resto gear? Would pugs take me more frequently with one over the other? Of course because I have higher priority characters, and because I want raids to start frequently clearing it so there will be more leniency, I'm talking about months after release of the raid.

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1 year ago (1.13.2)
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Apav wrote:
1 year ago
So it's settled then, I'll go Resto then until I have an Ele offset that can be considered geared for PvP which probably won't be until AQ. I guess my final question becomes then, how feasible will it be to pug AQ or Naxx either by DPSing with an Ele spec in AQ/Naxx Ele gear, or healing with an Ele spec in AQ/Naxx Resto gear? Would pugs take me more frequently with one over the other? Of course because I have higher priority characters, and because I want raids to start frequently clearing it so there will be more leniency, I'm talking about months after release of the raid.
You easiest option of course is just speccing 30/0/21 and raiding as and building a strong healing set first, but still then having the option to PvP/Grind/PvE as ele. This choice of course puts you at a disadvantage, if they are choosing between two healing shamans and one has mana tide totem and one doesn't, we know who the invite will go to. I have a lvl 28 shaman, i am going to 0/0/21 first. Then I will either go 30 points elemental or 30 points enhancement for the rest of the leveling to 60. I still haven't decided. Enhance means building a whole 2nd set, but its easier to level as enh/dps as enhance while healing dungeons compared to the mana hungry ele. Ele is better PvP and probably more fun, but I think the simplest and safest option is 0/30/21. Natures swiftness is your 'oh shit button' and you have enough healing talents for dungeons easily. Plus going 30 points in enh means great totems for your melee party members/raiders.

edit: I probably didn't help you out much there. I think you will eventually find your 'spot' with your shaman. Probably resto to raid/gear up your ele set and switch later, or rely on respec/hybrid build.

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