100 hours is a lot to troll up just for a single vote.Pippina wrote: ↑5 years agoWhich is why I agree there will be some people who do it. But again, Blizzard wouldn't consider doing any future development for Classic unless the playerbase was large enough to support it. The amount of people who would have to commit to a 100+ hour troll job for the lulz to impact our content supermajority votes in any meaningful manner would be enormous.
Gensei - Shaman, Bloodsail Buccaneers
Make it 50 hours in the past month instead of 100 total ever, and you have a perfectly workable solution.
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TL;DR
Taking flying out of TBC is basically just classic+ anyways, and people aren't dedicated enough to troll votes for 100+ hours, take it from a lifelong troll.
This mindset assumes that enough people agree with you that there will still be enough people to have a populated server post phase 6, that those people won't get bored 2 or more years out of the same content, and when the population begins to die off due to lack of new content at that time you will then have a high enough population to keep it entertaining.
You immediately have to begin to look at what damage splitting the game's population will do.
reading all of this about 'trolling votes', just look at what already exists! Old school runescape and current runescape are totally different. Yet current runescape players don't play old school just to fuck with people and votes, and even if some do, how many people are that dedicated to trolling? Why would someone who likes retail play a game for hundreds of hours just to 'troll'? At that point, if they've played hundreds of hours, they've played more than many casual players! They're literally just players at that point, and their vote, by my estimation, becomes as valid as mine or yours regardless of viewpoint.
Which leads to this! So let's say they split Classic into Classic and Classic+. TBC Comes out and there's a whole other section we have to cut from our existing group of players to populate that server. We can't afford to just assume that if they release a server, it will have a great long term population. Numbers from classic right now indicate we're going to have a ton of people, but if you want a game to last it's a different story.
So! What am I rambling about?
If you take flying out of BC, and you keep the level cap the same and scale down gear to appropriate levels find some other way of keeping getting new gear interesting (looking at games like gw2 or other mmos with a level cap that doesn't rise every expansion for inspiration), it's just a new zone. Heck, make it a level 40 leveling zone for people to go to and make it worth level 60's time to do the content and it's just that, new content. Which is what most Classic+ people are asking for!
I'm not trying to say that Classic as it exists is bad, far from it! I loved classic then and I'll love it now. Is there a place in this world for a purely 1.12 vanilla server with absolutely no changes never ever cross my heart and hope to die? Absolutely, and the same could be said for TBC, WOTLK, what have you.
Does that mean that Classic+ couldn't take existing content and use it in such a way that it is appropriately scaled and doesn't break the most important part of WoW, a shared, persistent world? It can definitely be done!
"But Blizzard is mostly Activision now, they'll fuck it up!"
"Cash shops!"
Great arguments, which is why we need to put agency in the player's hands! It's not perfect, but neither is any form of democracy! It does have the potential, however, to produce a truly unique and magical experience that can last for as long as we want to play it.
I mean it's vague because different people have different notions. But essentially, I think it boils down in its most basic form:pan0phobik wrote: ↑5 years agoIs there a universal definition of 'classic+' ?
I can surmise what you guys mean but Im curious.
Raid content beyond Naxx, both 20 and 40 man raids. It would be cool to have a progression path exclusively for a small, 20 man guild. Would likely repurpose areas that were intended to be in Vanilla but got scrapped or held off for later, for example: Karazhan, Grim Batol, Dragon Isles. Even things that were added in later expansions probably had inital designs or concepts that ultimately went unused. In the case of Kara, Blizzard made three versions of it and used the 3rd for BC. It'd be cool to see what Grim Batol or whatever else would look like in the lore context and in the spirit of Vanilla, and it would be entirely unlike its Cata iteration. Same thing with Uldum, which was originally intended as a raid, likely similar to Uldaman. There's a giant door to it in southern Tanaris.
Super minor class changes, likely not heavily impacting things on the high end, bleeding edge, but giving more options for casual and semi-casual players, like for elemental shaman, just a talent that helps with mana management and add Nature damage to Curse of Elements (which is dumb that it's not the case already considering the name). Part of the motivation for this is that Blizzard was sitting on many changes they wanted to make for the classes but held off so more stuff would ship with BC and the BC patch. Kevin Jordan said that if there was more time/patches in vanilla, most really PvE non-viable specs would have seen some kind of small buffs, and fury warrior dps would have been nerfed a bit. They were not intended to be higher dps than rogues.
Really (and this is where my personal philosophizing comes in) vanilla was originally a living, breathing game that had changes along the way. Classic, as we're getting it, is a game frozen in time at patch 1.12. Like the mosquito in amber in Jurassic Park. And I think it is reasonable to stay that way until we have access to all the original content. But I think it's also reasonable, after it's been long enough, to let the game start to be alive again and change a tiny bit, while very, very astutely maintaining the spirit and essence of vanilla.
That's it. Those are the two pillars of the typical players notion of Classic+. Just more to do in the same magical game world and more ways to do it.
TL;DR - more PvE content, and minor class changes to make a lot of the unviable specs better for casual-oriented guilds. The king classes/specs would still likely reign among the top raiding guilds. More life breathed into the old world and more variety in the class composition of your typical raid. But nothing rocking the boat.
Gensei - Shaman, Bloodsail Buccaneers
classic + means different things to different peopleGensei wrote: ↑5 years agoI mean it's vague because different people have different notions. But essentially, I think it boils down in its most basic form:pan0phobik wrote: ↑5 years agoIs there a universal definition of 'classic+' ?
I can surmise what you guys mean but Im curious.
Raid content beyond Naxx, perhaps even another one or two 20 man raids, so that you have a progression path if you have a guild that just wants a 20 man raid team. Would likely repurpose areas that were intended to be in Vanilla but got scrapped or held off for later, for example: Karazhan, Grim Batol, Dragon Isles. Even things that were added in later expansions probably had inital designs or concepts that ultimately went unused, it'd be cool to see what Grim Batol or whatever would look like in the lore context of Vanilla, and it would be entirely unlike its Cata iteration. Same thing with Uldum, which was originally intended as a raid, likely similar to Uldaman. There's a giant door to it in southern Tanaris.
Super minor class changes, likely not heavily impacting things on the high end, bleeding edge, but giving more options for casual and semi-casual players, like for elemental shaman, just a talent that helps with mana management and add Nature damage to Curse of Elements (which is dumb that it's not the case already considering the name). Part of the motivation for this is that Blizzard was sitting on many changes they wanted to make for the classes but held off so more stuff would ship with BC and the BC patch. Kevin Jordan said that if there was more time/patches in vanilla, most really PvE non-viable specs would have seen some kind of small buffs, and fury warrior dps would have been nerfed a bit. They were not intended to be higher dps than rogues.
And guild banks. Really (and this is where my personal philosophizing comes in) vanilla was originally a living, breathing game that had changes along the way. Classic, as we're getting it, is a game frozen in time at patch 1.12. Like the mosquito in amber in Jurassic Park. And I think it is reasonable to stay that way until we have access to all the original content. But I think it's also reasonable, after it's been long enough, to let the game start to be alive again and change a tiny bit, while very, very astutely maintaining the spirit and essence of vanilla.
That's it.
TL;DR - more PvE content, after Naxx and more 20 man content and there's lots of stuff in the old vanilla world that you can use, and minor class changes to make a lot of the unviable specs better for casual-oriented guilds. The king classes/specs would still likely reign among the top raiding guilds. More life breathed into the old world and more variety in the class composition of your typical raid. But nothing rocking the boat. + guild banks.
some want horizontal progression past naxx.
some want vertical.
some no balance changes, some want minor, some want heavy.
some want LFD, transmog, and others added. some do not.
Yes...I know those are asks/requests by people in the community about Classic+.
My point was that the two things I highlight are the most basic, foundational parts of that conversation. More content and minor class tweaks.
Gensei - Shaman, Bloodsail Buccaneers
i'd disagree with you on the minor class tweaks. i've seen more calls for wholesale re-balance of classes then minor tweaks.
Well then we're dealing in anecdotal experience, which doesn't account for much. It'll be more helpful to find what the community wants after the game's been out for a year, I think. People who've never played it before will have their views better formed.Instinctz wrote: ↑5 years agoi'd disagree with you on the minor class tweaks. i've seen more calls for wholesale re-balance of classes then minor tweaks.
Gensei - Shaman, Bloodsail Buccaneers
They hands down need to rebalance the entire classes, not just tweak them. I mean, you could think adding taunt to a Protection Paladin would make it balanced and call it a day, but not really.
The fact that people are so against balancing for Classic blows my mind as certain specs are literally unplayable, but 50 year old #nochanges bandwagoners will bandwagon I guess.
Human Warrior - Shazzrah Firemaw PVP
because i've seen where balance leads. if you want proof - look at retail.ariba wrote: ↑5 years agoThey hands down need to rebalance the entire classes, not just tweak them. I mean, you could think adding taunt to a Protection Paladin would make it balanced and call it a day, but not really.
The fact that people are so against balancing for Classic blows my mind as certain specs are literally unplayable, but 50 year old #nochanges bandwagoners will bandwagon I guess.
also - because you pro balance change guys can't even agree with each other.
some want buffs to hybrids to the point where they actually warrant a raid slot. some want buffs to the point where hybrids are competitive with a pure. some want buffs to the point where dps are equal.
but i'll debate you on this point. to start with, in your ideal situation. how balanced would you need?
if rogues, mages, hunters, and warlocks were doing 1,000 dps with full raid buffs
how much dps would the hybrids need to do?
It's odd that someone who wants a lot of changes is very upset with the nochanges crowd, but then also won't engage in any middleground like I've laid out?ariba wrote: ↑5 years agoThey hands down need to rebalance the entire classes, not just tweak them. I mean, you could think adding taunt to a Protection Paladin would make it balanced and call it a day, but not really.
The fact that people are so against balancing for Classic blows my mind as certain specs are literally unplayable, but 50 year old #nochanges bandwagoners will bandwagon I guess.
Gensei - Shaman, Bloodsail Buccaneers
It's not really about that, it's just about making the weaker specs relevant. I don't care to see a, say, Balance Druid and a Feral Druid both top the DPS meter, but to at least see them both somewhat on it. How can anyone think having a Balance Druid cast 3 Starfires and then literally auto-attack for the rest of the fight be even remotely balanced? (I know they're more relevant than that, as they've got battle-res, curse/poison remove and heals and Ferals can potentially achieve Hunter DPS if intense try-harding and very relvant gear, but you get my point.) Balancing back then was far worse than it is in retail in its current patch. Almost non-existent.Instinctz wrote: ↑5 years agobecause i've seen where balance leads. if you want proof - look at retail.ariba wrote: ↑5 years agoThey hands down need to rebalance the entire classes, not just tweak them. I mean, you could think adding taunt to a Protection Paladin would make it balanced and call it a day, but not really.
The fact that people are so against balancing for Classic blows my mind as certain specs are literally unplayable, but 50 year old #nochanges bandwagoners will bandwagon I guess.
also - because you pro balance change guys can't even agree with each other.
some want buffs to hybrids to the point where they actually warrant a raid slot. some want buffs to the point where hybrids are competitive with a pure. some want buffs to the point where dps are equal.
but i'll debate you on this point. to start with, in your ideal situation. how balanced would you need?
if rogues, mages, hunters, and warlocks were doing 1,000 dps with full raid buffs
how much dps would the hybrids need to do?
Human Warrior - Shazzrah Firemaw PVP
but the problem is - not everyone agrees with you.ariba wrote: ↑5 years agoIt's not really about that, it's just about making the weaker specs relevant. I don't care to see a, say, Balance Druid and a Feral Druid both top the DPS meter, but to at least see them both somewhat on it. How can anyone think having a Balance Druid cast 3 Starfires and then literally auto-attack for the rest of the fight be even remotely balanced? (I know they're more relevant than that, as they've got battle-res, curse/poison remove and heals and Ferals can potentially achieve Hunter DPS if intense try-harding and very relvant gear, but you get my point.) Balancing back then was far worse than it is in retail in its current patch. Almost non-existent.Instinctz wrote: ↑5 years agobecause i've seen where balance leads. if you want proof - look at retail.ariba wrote: ↑5 years agoThey hands down need to rebalance the entire classes, not just tweak them. I mean, you could think adding taunt to a Protection Paladin would make it balanced and call it a day, but not really.
The fact that people are so against balancing for Classic blows my mind as certain specs are literally unplayable, but 50 year old #nochanges bandwagoners will bandwagon I guess.
also - because you pro balance change guys can't even agree with each other.
some want buffs to hybrids to the point where they actually warrant a raid slot. some want buffs to the point where hybrids are competitive with a pure. some want buffs to the point where dps are equal.
but i'll debate you on this point. to start with, in your ideal situation. how balanced would you need?
if rogues, mages, hunters, and warlocks were doing 1,000 dps with full raid buffs
how much dps would the hybrids need to do?
like i said - you may be fine with hybrids doing enough dps to warrant a raid slot (like say, burning crusade), but there are those who want hybrids to be more in line with wrath, or retail.
And that's perfectly fine. I'm aware of the fact that people don't want certain specs to be even remotely relevant for either PVP/PVE.
Human Warrior - Shazzrah Firemaw PVP
not what i meant. but go ahead and plead ignorance.
even among the ones pro balance crowd.
you have those who want what you want (basically BC balance).
but others want MORE.
You know, I brought up this exact same point in discussions about the possibility of Modern players spending months playing a game that they don't even like just to have a few cosmetic items added to their collections in a different game. And y'all thought I was crazy.snickerwicket wrote: ↑5 years agoreading all of this about 'trolling votes', just look at what already exists! Old school runescape and current runescape are totally different. Yet current runescape players don't play old school just to fuck with people and votes, and even if some do, how many people are that dedicated to trolling? Why would someone who likes retail play a game for hundreds of hours just to 'troll'? At that point, if they've played hundreds of hours, they've played more than many casual players! They're literally just players at that point
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literally had plenty of modern players say they would "if blizzard put linked rewards into classic i'd play".Black Monarch wrote: ↑5 years agoYou know, I brought up this exact same point in discussions about the possibility of Modern players spending months playing a game that they don't even like just to have a few cosmetic items added to their collections in a different game. And y'all thought I was crazy.
the number of claims of it on the blizz forums was staggering.
all this discussion is doing is convincing me even more that changes to the game should be put to a vote. Think of it this way: would you rather have a game that never changes or adds content OR one that can eventually change if enough players agree that it should? I would rather have a game that can have consistently released new content because the alternative is a game that we may want now, but won't still want to play 5 years after phase 6.
And isn't that the point? To make a new version of Classic that can be consistently enjoyed for many, many years?
no. the point, as stated many times by blizzard, was to make an authentic vanilla wow experience.snickerwicket wrote: ↑5 years agoAnd isn't that the point? To make a new version of Classic that can be consistently enjoyed for many, many years?
that is it.
you're not wrong, but that distinction by blizzard is probably what made them think we wouldn't want classic in the first place. WoW was popular when it came out, but it remained popular because they could add content. The question shouldn't be should they add or not add, the question should be what gets added and how.Instinctz wrote: ↑5 years agono. the point, as stated many times by blizzard, was to make an authentic vanilla wow experience.snickerwicket wrote: ↑5 years agoAnd isn't that the point? To make a new version of Classic that can be consistently enjoyed for many, many years?
that is it.
Literally three people ever said that. It's far from "staggering"
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here? maybe. have you followed reddit? the wow forums? mmo-champion?
I was referring specifically to the WoW forums and the thread on them titled something like "blizzard please reconsider your position on collection linking" that had like 1900 replies.
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well i can guarantee you it's more then three.Black Monarch wrote: ↑5 years agoI was referring specifically to the WoW forums and the thread on them titled something like "blizzard please reconsider your position on collection linking" that had like 1900 replies.
I counted. I took screenshots. It was either exactly or very close to three.
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Best Runes for Rogue Tank in SoD?Does anyone have recommendations for the best runes to use on a rogue tank?Maekor • 1 year ago
Furious
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