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RedridgeGnoll wrote:
1 year ago
TBC and WOTLK are pure nostalgia.
This is the exact logic that prevented classic from being made for so long. Why do you think that you have a better understanding of what strangers want than they do?

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Bumlebi wrote:
1 year ago
I cannot understand how so many people who are excited about classic scream for *insert personal favourite expansion*. Like other people have made clear in this thread, the first expansion after vanilla started the awful formulaic experience that WoW became so quickly. Vanilla has an immense world that none of the expansions come close to, and this to me is what makes WoW so amazing.

I do, however, understand why people would be excited to replay the expansion in which they saw their own WoW prime, so to speak. The nostalgia and happy memories are great, and for me this would be TBC. Still, the way expansions insta-invalidate the rest of the world with their bigger and better numbers and somewhat contained zones is downright toxic to WoW, and TBC laid for foundation for every awful expansion that ever came after.

The cool thing about redoing vanilla with classic is that we can look back, and realise exactly what things steered WoW off the line in the beginning and try to correct these. Simply going down the preset path of already made expansions is missing the point by such a longshot that I'm impressed with how many people want this.

I can only compare to OSRS when talking about Classic+, and obviously Runescape is a very different game with lots of sidewards content which can more easily be added or changed. WoW is more about progressing upwards (bigger, better numbers again), so while it is not clear to me how Classic+ should be executed, I am convinced that the best way to preserve what we love about the vanilla game is to stay with vanilla but modify it slowly and carefully.

EDIT: I also do not believe in having multiple servers which are on different expansions. This will only confuse new incoming players and lessen the player base for all games.
What is hard to understand? If someone enjoyed TBC more than classic, why wouldn't they eventually want an official server for it? TBC and WOTLK are the two xpacs which were "my WoW prime" as you put it. Part of the reason I'm so pumped for classic is because the classic content (i.e. 1-60) was still a massive part of those two expansions. Classic is also SO MUCH closer to the TBC and WOTLK experience than retail is, so that excites me. As far as lessening the playerbase with multiple servers, I doubt it will be an issue, since there are currently pservers with thriving communities, and as we've seen with classic, official servers can draw crowds orders of magnitude larger than pservers can.

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Telvaine wrote:
1 year ago
Bumlebi wrote:
1 year ago
I cannot understand how so many people who are excited about classic scream for *insert personal favourite expansion*. Like other people have made clear in this thread, the first expansion after vanilla started the awful formulaic experience that WoW became so quickly. Vanilla has an immense world that none of the expansions come close to, and this to me is what makes WoW so amazing.

I do, however, understand why people would be excited to replay the expansion in which they saw their own WoW prime, so to speak. The nostalgia and happy memories are great, and for me this would be TBC. Still, the way expansions insta-invalidate the rest of the world with their bigger and better numbers and somewhat contained zones is downright toxic to WoW, and TBC laid for foundation for every awful expansion that ever came after.

The cool thing about redoing vanilla with classic is that we can look back, and realise exactly what things steered WoW off the line in the beginning and try to correct these. Simply going down the preset path of already made expansions is missing the point by such a longshot that I'm impressed with how many people want this.

I can only compare to OSRS when talking about Classic+, and obviously Runescape is a very different game with lots of sidewards content which can more easily be added or changed. WoW is more about progressing upwards (bigger, better numbers again), so while it is not clear to me how Classic+ should be executed, I am convinced that the best way to preserve what we love about the vanilla game is to stay with vanilla but modify it slowly and carefully.

EDIT: I also do not believe in having multiple servers which are on different expansions. This will only confuse new incoming players and lessen the player base for all games.
What is hard to understand? If someone enjoyed TBC more than classic, why wouldn't they eventually want an official server for it? TBC and WOTLK are the two xpacs which were "my WoW prime" as you put it. Part of the reason I'm so pumped for classic is because the classic content (i.e. 1-60) was still a massive part of those two expansions. Classic is also SO MUCH closer to the TBC and WOTLK experience than retail is, so that excites me. As far as lessening the playerbase with multiple servers, I doubt it will be an issue, since there are currently pservers with thriving communities, and as we've seen with classic, official servers can draw crowds orders of magnitude larger than pservers can.

Because what he said is right.

What so many fail to understand is that TBC shares more in common with Retail than Classic does with TBC. TBC created the formula that all expansions followed. It is why we have BFA today. Classic is basically an entirely different MMO. That is why so many want it.

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RedridgeGnoll wrote:
1 year ago

What so many fail to understand is that TBC shares more in common with Retail than Classic does with TBC. TBC created the formula that all expansions followed. It is why we have BFA today. Classic is basically an entirely different MMO. That is why so many want it.
So this appears to be the hangup in all of this.

It's worth thinking of this as a question of historical interpretation, like something historians would argue about. Was the changeover to TBC mostly a continuation of Vanilla's design and structure, or was it a dramatic shift to something closer to the game of the modern era?

I think this is a super interesting question without a clear answer, nor does it need one and that's okay because things are complicated sometimes. But does this distinction matter? If BC is more or less like Classic, does that make requests for TBC servers anymore legitimate or illegitimate? I don't think it does.

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Telvaine wrote:
1 year ago
Bumlebi wrote:
1 year ago
I cannot understand how so many people who are excited about classic scream for *insert personal favourite expansion*. Like other people have made clear in this thread, the first expansion after vanilla started the awful formulaic experience that WoW became so quickly. Vanilla has an immense world that none of the expansions come close to, and this to me is what makes WoW so amazing.

I do, however, understand why people would be excited to replay the expansion in which they saw their own WoW prime, so to speak. The nostalgia and happy memories are great, and for me this would be TBC. Still, the way expansions insta-invalidate the rest of the world with their bigger and better numbers and somewhat contained zones is downright toxic to WoW, and TBC laid for foundation for every awful expansion that ever came after.

The cool thing about redoing vanilla with classic is that we can look back, and realise exactly what things steered WoW off the line in the beginning and try to correct these. Simply going down the preset path of already made expansions is missing the point by such a longshot that I'm impressed with how many people want this.

I can only compare to OSRS when talking about Classic+, and obviously Runescape is a very different game with lots of sidewards content which can more easily be added or changed. WoW is more about progressing upwards (bigger, better numbers again), so while it is not clear to me how Classic+ should be executed, I am convinced that the best way to preserve what we love about the vanilla game is to stay with vanilla but modify it slowly and carefully.

EDIT: I also do not believe in having multiple servers which are on different expansions. This will only confuse new incoming players and lessen the player base for all games.
What is hard to understand? If someone enjoyed TBC more than classic, why wouldn't they eventually want an official server for it? TBC and WOTLK are the two xpacs which were "my WoW prime" as you put it. Part of the reason I'm so pumped for classic is because the classic content (i.e. 1-60) was still a massive part of those two expansions. Classic is also SO MUCH closer to the TBC and WOTLK experience than retail is, so that excites me. As far as lessening the playerbase with multiple servers, I doubt it will be an issue, since there are currently pservers with thriving communities, and as we've seen with classic, official servers can draw crowds orders of magnitude larger than pservers can.
Nothing wrong with wanting something. In my post I was trying to convey the message that to me it seems like people don't consider the implication of having said wish fulfilled, which is what I think is a shame. I have played on TBC private servers, too, and loved it, but I do not think this is the correct way to go for Classic in the long term.

Yes, 1-60 was more meaningful during TBC and Wrath than today, and yes those two expansions also resemble Classic more closely than retail. I don't really see how this argument validates anything because of course it is true. There is only 1 expansion between vanilla and Wrath, and we have 4 expansions in between Legion and Wrath.

Lessening the player base can be thought of in more ways than just numbers, sorry for being unclear here. Fragmentating "WoW-players" through 8 different games (if all expansions would get to have their own games) reduces the overall sensation of quality and feeling for the game, at least for me it does.

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RedridgeGnoll wrote:
1 year ago
What so many fail to understand is that TBC shares more in common with Retail than Classic does with TBC. TBC created the formula that all expansions followed. It is why we have BFA today. Classic is basically an entirely different MMO. That is why so many want it.
TBC? no. Wrath? yes.
TBC stayed true to Classic Balance/Design (hybrid tax), to having to progress from one raid to another, and to ensuring that dungeons were time consuming and required coordination and cc.

TBC did not equalize dps of hybrids with pures.
TBC did not give access to everything to everyone.
TBC did not make dungeons aoe tank and spank chain pull fests (unless you outgeared it).
TBC kept the attuning to raids (and even some dungeons) until they were removed near the end to get ready for wrath.
TBC subscribed to one difficulty of raid.

the expansion you are thinking about is WRATH.

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Bumlebi wrote:
1 year ago
Yes, 1-60 was more meaningful during TBC and Wrath than today, and yes those two expansions also resemble Classic more closely than retail. I don't really see how this argument validates anything because of course it is true. There is only 1 expansion between vanilla and Wrath, and we have 4 expansions in between Legion and Wrath.
This is false.
Burning Crusade more closely resembles classic/vanilla. this is true.
Wrath? wrath was modern wow design through and through.

aoe tank and spank dungeons? check
equalization of dps? check
everyone has aoe? cc? check
release of one patch includes plenty of catchup mechanics so you can skip previous content? check
multiple difficulty settings for raids? check
easy baseline raid difficulty? check
Automated Grouping with teleports to dungeons? check
Extreme Ease of leveling? check
not having to attune to raids or dungeons? check

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Instinctz wrote:
1 year ago
Bumlebi wrote:
1 year ago
Yes, 1-60 was more meaningful during TBC and Wrath than today, and yes those two expansions also resemble Classic more closely than retail. I don't really see how this argument validates anything because of course it is true. There is only 1 expansion between vanilla and Wrath, and we have 4 expansions in between Legion and Wrath.
This is false.
Burning Crusade more closely resembles classic/vanilla. this is true.
Wrath? wrath was modern wow design through and through.

aoe tank and spank dungeons? check
equalization of dps? check
everyone has aoe? cc? check
release of one patch includes plenty of catchup mechanics so you can skip previous content? check
multiple difficulty settings for raids? check
easy baseline raid difficulty? check
Automated Grouping with teleports to dungeons? check
Extreme Ease of leveling? check
not having to attune to raids or dungeons? check
All that said, I agree. Unfortunately for me, deathknight is by far my favorite class in wow, mostly for lore reasons. The closest I can get to playing a dk in vanilla is wrath, since that's the closest expansion to vanilla that had them.

I would absolutely love it if they redid wotlk and tbc with classic design philosophy, so I guess in a way I am asking for classic+?

But that brings us back to the whole "what does classic+ really mean" debate.

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Telvaine wrote:
1 year ago
I would absolutely love it if they redid wotlk and tbc with classic design philosophy, so I guess in a way I am asking for classic+?
BC did follow classic design.
Classic + means different things based on who you ask.
which is why Classic + is so hard to make work.

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Instinctz wrote:
1 year ago
BC did follow classic design.
I agree, but as we have already seen, other people in this thread strongly disagree.

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RedridgeGnoll wrote:
1 year ago
What is so good about WOTLK?
Btw the answer to this is story. Arthas and the scourge is the best storyline in the warcraft universe. That is why wrath had the highest population in that chart that was being linked earlier. That is also why Legion had such a large population spike in the same chart. Legion has imo the second best story.

Arthas and the scourge are solid, interesting, ominous enemies. So are Sargeras and the burning legion.

(Imho) Cata, MOP, WOD, and BFA have shit stories, which is why you see the massive population drops.

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Telvaine wrote:
1 year ago
RedridgeGnoll wrote:
1 year ago
What is so good about WOTLK?
Btw the answer to this is story. Arthas and the scourge is the best storyline in the warcraft universe. That is why wrath had the highest population in that chart that was being linked earlier. That is also why Legion had such a large population spike in the same chart. Legion has imo the second best story.

Arthas and the scourge are solid, interesting, ominous enemies. So are Sargeras and the burning legion.

(Imho) Cata, MOP, WOD, and BFA have shit stories, which is why you see the massive population drops.

story and Ulduar. that's literally it.

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RedridgeGnoll wrote:
1 year ago
TBC shares more in common with Retail than Classic does with TBC. TBC created the formula that all expansions followed. It is why we have BFA today. Classic is basically an entirely different MMO. That is why so many want it.
That's utter bollocks. The biggest shift in game design philosophy came between MoP and WoD. BC didn't make the entire 1-60 world obsolete. It only made level 58-60 content obsolete. You still had to get your character from level 1 to level 58 in the old world if you wanted to get to Outland. You still had to farm old world mats to get your professions high enough to use Outland mats. Warlords was the expansion that said "yeah fuck all that shit, just buy a boost to 90 and start making Draenor gear with level 1 professions. Or no professions, if you have the right garrison buildings"
Instinctz wrote:
1 year ago
TBC did not equalize dps of hybrids with pures.
TBC did not give access to everything to everyone.
TBC did not make dungeons aoe tank and spank chain pull fests (unless you outgeared it).
TBC kept the attuning to raids (and even some dungeons) until they were removed near the end to get ready for wrath.
TBC subscribed to one difficulty of raid.
Instinctz wrote:
1 year ago
aoe tank and spank dungeons? check
equalization of dps? check
everyone has aoe? cc? check
release of one patch includes plenty of catchup mechanics so you can skip previous content? check
multiple difficulty settings for raids? check
easy baseline raid difficulty? check
Automated Grouping with teleports to dungeons? check
Extreme Ease of leveling? check
not having to attune to raids or dungeons? check
None of those have anything to do with modern WoW design philosophy expect the "these amplifiers go up to eleven" raid difficulty tradmill.

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Black Monarch wrote:
1 year ago
The biggest shift in game design philosophy came between MoP and WoD
disagree, the biggest change was towards "bring the player not the class" and the design change of everyone should be able to see content.

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I'm really only playing Classic to show support for TBC/WotLK in the future. Vanilla gameplay is a little bland for my tastes... but I'd still rather play Vanilla than BfA, especially if it helps Blizz decide to open TBC.

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Instinctz wrote:
1 year ago
disagree, the biggest change was towards "bring the player not the class"
That is player behavior, not game design.

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Black Monarch wrote:
1 year ago
RedridgeGnoll wrote:
1 year ago
TBC shares more in common with Retail than Classic does with TBC. TBC created the formula that all expansions followed. It is why we have BFA today. Classic is basically an entirely different MMO. That is why so many want it.
That's utter bollocks. The biggest shift in game design philosophy came between MoP and WoD. BC didn't make the entire 1-60 world obsolete. It only made level 58-60 content obsolete. You still had to get your character from level 1 to level 58 in the old world if you wanted to get to Outland. You still had to farm old world mats to get your professions high enough to use Outland mats. Warlords was the expansion that said "yeah fuck all that shit, just buy a boost to 90 and start making Draenor gear with level 1 professions. Or no professions, if you have the right garrison buildings"
This, 100%. Cata was the start of the nonsense with getting rid of old talent trees, literal destruction of the old world, heirlooms (one of my all time biggest gripes), and streamlining and optimization of quest rewards. (

WOD and the beginning of pruning was the real shameful turn away from the old style of combat.

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Telvaine wrote:
1 year ago
This, 100%. Cata was the start of the nonsense with getting rid of old talent trees, literal destruction of the old world, heirlooms (one of my all time biggest gripes),
Heirlooms started in wrath and real talent trees weren't removed until Pandaland.

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In my personal opinion.

I am a classic player, not a tbc or any other expansion kind lover.
But do not mind new content as long it keeps my game separate.

A few servers that is TBC, so that those that longed for offical TBC servers gets it. And i of course can keep my Vanilla with no sprinkles.

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Black Monarch wrote:
1 year ago
None of those have anything to do with modern WoW design philosophy expect the "these amplifiers go up to eleven" raid difficulty tradmill.
all those are standard modern wow design. sorry you don't like it.
Black Monarch wrote:
1 year ago
That is player behavior, not game design.
umm. wow. someone not paying attention. blizzard was the one who said that.
https://www.engadget.com/2009/02/27/gho ... the-class/ and it started with wrath. but good try.

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Black Monarch wrote:
1 year ago
Telvaine wrote:
1 year ago
This, 100%. Cata was the start of the nonsense with getting rid of old talent trees, literal destruction of the old world, heirlooms (one of my all time biggest gripes),
Heirlooms started in wrath and real talent trees weren't removed until Pandaland.
My bad I guess, it all blurs together, but screw heirlooms and new talent trees.

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I think they should definitely do TBC on a separate realm where you can copy your character.
They have potential to kill all private servers very easily. Offer The classic/tbc/wrath option at a reduced price like 8.99 a month versus the 14.99 and they can combat people from leaving and joining private servers.
The main reason I played private servers in TBC back then was because it was free. That's the main reason most played them then. Most play them now for the nostalgia.

They need to capitalize! Keep us wanting to spend the money and not lose it to private server donations and other bs.

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Black Monarch wrote:
1 year ago
Telvaine wrote:
1 year ago
This, 100%. Cata was the start of the nonsense with getting rid of old talent trees, literal destruction of the old world, heirlooms (one of my all time biggest gripes),
Heirlooms started in wrath and real talent trees weren't removed until Pandaland.
More Anti-Cataclysm propaganda. What else is new.

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Instinctz wrote:
1 year ago
Black Monarch wrote:
1 year ago
None of those have anything to do with modern WoW design philosophy expect the "these amplifiers go up to eleven" raid difficulty tradmill.
all those are standard modern wow design.
No, they're not. Have you even PLAYED modern WoW recently? Half of the things you listed don't exist.
Telvaine wrote:
1 year ago
screw heirlooms and new talent trees.
Heirlooms were fine back when they didn't exist for every f**king slot... I'm ashamed to admit that I was one of those stupid n00bs begging for heirloom pants and shields during late Cat and early MoP. Now I realize that every new heirloom made hundreds of quest rewards and dungeon boss drops irrelevant, which in turn sucked a lot of the fun out of questing and spamming dungeons.

I have a slight preference for the old talent trees but I didn't lose my shit over the new system. I was much more bothered by the removal of the relic slot.

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TBC came too fast, not enough people cleared Naxx and it was hasted decision. Greens and blues in 65-70 range were better than Naxx non-set gear. But Blizzard was at its peak and decided to capitalize on popularity, Who wouldn't?

Fact is once 10+ guilds per server get KT down and have Naxx on the farm for a month or two if there is no, people will start dropping out unless there is an idea for continuation. Subjectively no matter how much I like original classic, I like the idea of 1.14 or how you call it Classic+

First, people love PVP, and it should be the way to actually use hard-earned gear, one of the most loveable things of TBC is the arena and there will be a whole new experience of original WoW to add arena on top of the Classic experience.

On the other hand, not everyone is ready to get Naxx gear, there should be few content additions that will help people catch up but not trivialize previous content. Since Atiesh is made in Naxx and with extended server life more people will have it Kara is probably the best thing. Since raids are limited in vanilla to 20 and 40, Kara would be awesome 20 man. Another very enjoyable raid tuned for fast clearing and mount rewards was Zul Aman, it would be nice to "discover" new portal behind Troll zone in North EPL to it

Best way to add more 5 man content is trough Caverns of Time in Tanaris. I remember that everyone loved those instances.

TL:DR: 1.14
PVP - Arena (no resilience gear)
PVE
- 2x 20 mans Karazhan & Zul Aman (gear equal to non-set pieces of Naxx)
- 5 mans Caverns of Time (gear equal to BWL/AQ40)

For other stuff, not sure, but I would love to limit it to Azeroth only without changing anything for players not in endgame, this gives options for:
- Azshara BG
- Uldum Raid
- Grim Batol
- Archimonde Raid (old Hyjal Caverns of time)

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