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RedridgeGnoll wrote:
1 year ago
How many times do I have to explain this concept?

If there are two honor systems, then there is no fixed path of least resistance. When one system has more competition, the other system becomes the path of least resistance. It goes back and forth. If Premade Battlegrounds are giving the best honor, but eventually become too saturated or competitive, then grinding honor through World PvP becomes the fastest method. Vice versa.

The point you fail to realize is that most players are not grinding Rank 14. Not everyone can even achieve the top ranks, because of how the system works. The system is not based on cumulative honor, ir is based on how much honor a player esrns relative to others. If most everyone is doing battlegrounds, then there are fewer players and competition for rankinf up in World PvP. As long as both battlegrounds and world pvp allow for players to unlock gear, then both systems would be popular.

Let me explain how it works in Classic. Crossrealm Battlegrounds make ranking up in World PvP unviable. There is no second option and a defining aspect of the game becomes trivialized.
I do not think your ideas are bad or wrong, not saying they are good either but as a returning player, I wouldn't want this!
Just upset will all the same threads trying to fix something that isnt broken.
I even think people who hasnt played would want to experience it the way it was to compare it to the time when they played!
And to experience what the people in vanilla had to go through to be at the top!

I am looking forward to Classic because it was at the state of WoW where I loved it the most!
Even if the pvp system is flawed, maybe it isnt, either way I want it how it was!
I want to relive how the game was, how world pvp was, how battlegrounds were and how you achieve rank 14!
It was an honor to be rank 14 and you needed to put the time and join like minded people to achieve it!

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| Nýxt - Affliction Warlock | Kirtonos PVP | Level 60 | =-|-= | Awkaran - Resto Druid | Kirtonos PVP | Level 27 |
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RedridgeGnoll wrote:
1 year ago
Ranking up doing World PvP once Crossrealm battlegrounds are released is not viable.
I dont think World PvP was ever viable to rank up even before crossrealms at least ranking to high levels

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Nyxt wrote:
1 year ago
RedridgeGnoll wrote:
1 year ago
Ranking up doing World PvP once Crossrealm battlegrounds are released is not viable.
I dont think World PvP was ever viable to rank up even before crossrealms at least ranking to high levels
It stopped being viable once battlegrounds were released. If there had been no battlegrounds, then there would be Rank 14 players in world pvp.

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Out of curiosity, for those of you who participated in the honor system back in Vanilla, what rank can someone reasonably be expected to achieve while PvPing casually? Say, by PvPing 8-10 hours per week?

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rijndael wrote:
1 year ago
Out of curiosity, for those of you who participated in the honor system back in Vanilla, what rank can someone reasonably be expected to achieve while PvPing casually? Say, by PvPing 8-10 hours per week?
Probably Rank 7 or 8 depending on your server.

   rijndael
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RedridgeGnoll wrote:
1 year ago
It stopped being viable once battlegrounds were released. If there had been no battlegrounds, then there would be Rank 14 players in world pvp.
Techniquely yes, it was the only way to rank before battlegrounds but...
In my opinion, I dont think World PvP was meant to rank up to rank 14...

When I started playing battlegrounds were the way to rank and it was a funner and better way to rank.
World PvP is in my mind and how it paned out in Vanilla was a past time event...
It was to have fun, it was cause chaos to the other faction, it was being a dick sometimes and helping your allys getting jumped.
It was spontaneous! To me thats what made it World PvP.

I wouldnt want World PvP be a way of ranking because then World PvP would lose its soul and lose the fun of it.
It would be a chore and a job which it shouldnt.

Like i said #nochanges

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Nyxt wrote:
1 year ago
I am going to pull an @Apol and bounce!
Still looking for @Apol to pick me up so I can bounce!

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RedridgeGnoll wrote:
1 year ago
rijndael wrote:
1 year ago
Out of curiosity, for those of you who participated in the honor system back in Vanilla, what rank can someone reasonably be expected to achieve while PvPing casually? Say, by PvPing 8-10 hours per week?
Probably Rank 7 or 8 depending on your server.
I was as casual as you can be in Vanilla maybe i did a little more than 8-10 hours a week.
I got Knight-Captain which was Rank 8

   rijndael
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does it realy matter how many different parallell systems you got to get to rank 14?

you still have to compete against no-lifers spending all their days grinding honor


as a casual you cant realy compete against that nomatter how you do

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If there are two system then players would be able to hit Rank 14 in both World PvP and Battlegrounds. It isn't like now where you take the path of least resistance and do bgs for rank 14. With two systems, one player hitting rank 14 in world pvp would not prevent a different player from hitting rank 14 in bgs.

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RedridgeGnoll wrote:
1 year ago
With two systems, one player hitting rank 14 in world pvp would not prevent a different player from hitting rank 14 in bgs.
But it would invalidate the achievement of rank 14. It would create more rank 14s. It would devalue BG grinding and thus, because players will choose the path of least resistance, whichever system ended up hosting the quickest leveling experience would be used by the majority, and for those who participated in the opposing system, it would still be easier.

Anything that reduces the inherent challenge in Classic is an awful idea. If anything they need to flat out increase the difficulty of most aspects of the game.

g0bledyg00k wrote:
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Stfuppercut wrote:
1 year ago
If anything they need to flat out increase the difficulty of most aspects of the game.
I agree with this, I mean people spent alot of time back them grinding everything whether its pvp, pve, professions, secret quests and quests such like the Black Scarab quest, mostly because they didnt know everything. Now going back to Classic with 15 years of data and experience people know where to go, what to do, how to do it, and when to do it! So things will happen faster than before which two things should change, I think, the difficulty and what and how to get it. Like some people said about the AQ war event, to change the 'what mats to farm' to complete it so it doesnt end before it starts...

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How can so many defend a system that trivialized World PvP, and awarded the top rankings to players who exploited random battlegrounds in premade groups 24/7. I am not suggesting removing that playstyle, but rather to keep World PvP more relevant.

Blizzard could just increase the honor earned from World PvP. In a later patch they did that, but it is obvious it was not enough. If they increased honor in World PvP, it could make reaching rank 14 in battlegrounds not possible. Instead why not have two systems, and give players more than one option for ranking. The current system makes premade battlegrounds the only way to achieve high ranks. World PvP dies in WoW for many reasons. A major reason was because the honor was so low compared to battlegrounds.

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Nyxt wrote:
1 year ago
I mean people spent alot of time back them grinding
This. As much as we hold Classic dear, there will be an incredible lack of content to keep players interested. What used to take guilds months will be walked through in a few short days and for some guilds, in a few hours. There wont be content gatekeeping guilds for months on end. There wont be unkillable bosses like cthun. Removing the grinding aspect of PvP is advocating for the removal of content in a game that is desperately short on content.

I know most people will have a knee-jerk reaction to me saying that Classic lacks content, so I'll try to be clear. While Classic boasts a ton of content in contrast to other expansions, anytime we repeat content that we have already done and optimize our routes, the difficulty of completing said content becomes more and more manageable. This would be no different to any other expansion. By revisiting Classic and going through a world that is already explored, we can expedite our routes and minimize our time investment. So while Classic technically has a lot of content, that content will not take players anywhere near the time to complete it. Removing content, in this case a massive grind, is not a good idea.

Also running to parallel systems that offer the same reward at different levels of difficulty undermines the integrity of the game and is shit.

g0bledyg00k wrote:
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Stfuppercut wrote:
1 year ago
Nyxt wrote:
1 year ago
I mean people spent alot of time back them grinding
This. As much as we hold Classic dear, there will be an incredible lack of content to keep players interested. What used to take guilds months will be walked through in a few short days and for some guilds, in a few hours. There wont be content gatekeeping guilds for months on end. There wont be unkillable bosses like cthun. Removing the grinding aspect of PvP is advocating for the removal of content in a game that is desperately short on content.

I know most people will have a knee-jerk reaction to me saying that Classic lacks content, so I'll try to be clear. While Classic boasts a ton of content in contrast to other expansions, anytime we repeat content that we have already done and optimize our routes, the difficulty of completing said content becomes more and more manageable. This would be no different to any other expansion. By revisiting Classic and going through a world that is already explored, we can expedite our routes and minimize our time investment. So while Classic technically has a lot of content, that content will not take players anywhere near the time to complete it. Removing content, in this case a massive grind, is not a good idea.

Also running to parallel systems that offer the same reward at different levels of difficulty undermines the integrity of the game and is shit.
That is why I am advocating for a World PvP system, because PvP content can be replayable. There are like 20 contested zones and endless World PvP possibilities. However, a lot of that potential is wasted once Battlegrounds are released. Besides, WSG, AB, and AV are 15 years old. When you devalue World PvP, you take away a lot of content in the game.

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RedridgeGnoll wrote:
1 year ago
Stfuppercut wrote:
1 year ago
Nyxt wrote:
1 year ago
I mean people spent alot of time back them grinding
This. As much as we hold Classic dear, there will be an incredible lack of content to keep players interested. What used to take guilds months will be walked through in a few short days and for some guilds, in a few hours. There wont be content gatekeeping guilds for months on end. There wont be unkillable bosses like cthun. Removing the grinding aspect of PvP is advocating for the removal of content in a game that is desperately short on content.

I know most people will have a knee-jerk reaction to me saying that Classic lacks content, so I'll try to be clear. While Classic boasts a ton of content in contrast to other expansions, anytime we repeat content that we have already done and optimize our routes, the difficulty of completing said content becomes more and more manageable. This would be no different to any other expansion. By revisiting Classic and going through a world that is already explored, we can expedite our routes and minimize our time investment. So while Classic technically has a lot of content, that content will not take players anywhere near the time to complete it. Removing content, in this case a massive grind, is not a good idea.

Also running to parallel systems that offer the same reward at different levels of difficulty undermines the integrity of the game and is shit.
That is why I am advocating for a World PvP system, because PvP content can be replayable. There are like 20 contested zones and endless World PvP possibilities. However, a lot of that potential is wasted once Battlegrounds are released. Besides, WSG, AB, and AV are 15 years old. When you devalue World PvP, you take away a lot of content in the game.
But these contested zones are for leveling pretty much. That's why endgame PvP is in BGs.

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Kuro wrote:
1 year ago
RedridgeGnoll wrote:
1 year ago
Stfuppercut wrote:
1 year ago
Nyxt wrote:
1 year ago
I mean people spent alot of time back them grinding
This. As much as we hold Classic dear, there will be an incredible lack of content to keep players interested. What used to take guilds months will be walked through in a few short days and for some guilds, in a few hours. There wont be content gatekeeping guilds for months on end. There wont be unkillable bosses like cthun. Removing the grinding aspect of PvP is advocating for the removal of content in a game that is desperately short on content.

I know most people will have a knee-jerk reaction to me saying that Classic lacks content, so I'll try to be clear. While Classic boasts a ton of content in contrast to other expansions, anytime we repeat content that we have already done and optimize our routes, the difficulty of completing said content becomes more and more manageable. This would be no different to any other expansion. By revisiting Classic and going through a world that is already explored, we can expedite our routes and minimize our time investment. So while Classic technically has a lot of content, that content will not take players anywhere near the time to complete it. Removing content, in this case a massive grind, is not a good idea.

Also running to parallel systems that offer the same reward at different levels of difficulty undermines the integrity of the game and is shit.
That is why I am advocating for a World PvP system, because PvP content can be replayable. There are like 20 contested zones and endless World PvP possibilities. However, a lot of that potential is wasted once Battlegrounds are released. Besides, WSG, AB, and AV are 15 years old. When you devalue World PvP, you take away a lot of content in the game.
But these contested zones are for leveling pretty much. That's why endgame PvP is in BGs.

That is a good point. However there are a lot of contested zones with level 60 content. In Classic WoW you kill level 60s in Blackrock or Hearthglen only to earn meager honor. Killing players for little to no reward in World PvP is a bad system.

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RedridgeGnoll wrote:
1 year ago
That is a good point. However there are a lot of contested zones with level 60 content. In Classic WoW you kill level 60s in Blackrock or Hearthglen only to earn meager honor. Killing players for little to no reward in World PvP is a bad system.
I never played vanilla, but as I can see Blizzard never intended World PvP to be a fully-fledged PvP mode. People mostly remember it as thrilling experience while leveling or just passing through some zones and they will still PvP in the world for the fun of it, including me.

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Kuro wrote:
1 year ago
RedridgeGnoll wrote:
1 year ago
That is a good point. However there are a lot of contested zones with level 60 content. In Classic WoW you kill level 60s in Blackrock or Hearthglen only to earn meager honor. Killing players for little to no reward in World PvP is a bad system.
I never played vanilla, but as I can see Blizzard never intended World PvP to be a fully-fledged PvP mode. People mostly remember it as thrilling experience while leveling or just passing through some zones and they will still PvP in the world for the fun of it, including me.

It becomes less thrilling when the reward is irrelevant. Crossrealm battlegrounds means players standing in Ironforge and Orgrimmar queueing nonstop. That is what retail is.

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@RedridgeGnoll Seems like you glazed over an important point that @Nyxt made.

Nyxt wrote:
1 year ago
When I started playing battlegrounds were the way to rank and it was a funner and better way to rank.
World PvP is in my mind and how it paned out in Vanilla was a past time event...
It was to have fun, it was cause chaos to the other faction, it was being a dick sometimes and helping your allys getting jumped.
It was spontaneous! To me thats what made it World PvP.

I wouldnt want World PvP be a way of ranking because then World PvP would lose its soul and lose the fun of it.
It would be a chore and a job which it shouldnt.
The scrappy, improvised wPvP you seem to be interested in has its character because there are no rewards. As soon as you pollute it with the honor system it will become organized and systematic just like premade bgs — fighting will mostly happen in zones with the closest graveyards and the shortest flights to major cities (i.e. Hillsbrad). There will be more consistent and organized raids run by cliques which produce more honor per hour than PUGs flailing around. We will undoubtedly see this happen in phase 2.

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Lendryn wrote:
1 year ago
@RedridgeGnoll Seems like you glazed over an important point that @Nyxt made.

Nyxt wrote:
1 year ago
When I started playing battlegrounds were the way to rank and it was a funner and better way to rank.
World PvP is in my mind and how it paned out in Vanilla was a past time event...
It was to have fun, it was cause chaos to the other faction, it was being a dick sometimes and helping your allys getting jumped.
It was spontaneous! To me thats what made it World PvP.

I wouldnt want World PvP be a way of ranking because then World PvP would lose its soul and lose the fun of it.
It would be a chore and a job which it shouldnt.
The scrappy, improvised wPvP you seem to be interested in has its character because there are no rewards. As soon as you pollute it with the honor system it will become organized and systematic just like premade bgs — fighting will mostly happen in zones with the closest graveyards and the shortest flights to major cities (i.e. Hillsbrad). There will be more consistent and organized raids run by cliques which produce more honor per hour than PUGs flailing around. We will undoubtedly see this happen in phase 2.
The reason world pvp was popular was because players were new to the game and mmos in general. Nowadays players care about rewards more than ever. If you take away the reward for doing world pvp, then less players will do it.

I am well aware of the shortcomings of "organized" world pvp. Camping flightmasters, farming levelers etc.. that is why blizzard added battlegrounds. Giving players the option to do bgs was probably healthy for world pvp and the server. The problem is that battlegrounds kill the major incentive to world pvp. I am suggesting having a world pvp rank system, so that players who prefer that playstyle can continue to progress doing so.

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RedridgeGnoll wrote:
1 year ago
Kuro wrote:
1 year ago
RedridgeGnoll wrote:
1 year ago
That is a good point. However there are a lot of contested zones with level 60 content. In Classic WoW you kill level 60s in Blackrock or Hearthglen only to earn meager honor. Killing players for little to no reward in World PvP is a bad system.
I never played vanilla, but as I can see Blizzard never intended World PvP to be a fully-fledged PvP mode. People mostly remember it as thrilling experience while leveling or just passing through some zones and they will still PvP in the world for the fun of it, including me.

It becomes less thrilling when the reward is irrelevant. Crossrealm battlegrounds means players standing in Ironforge and Orgrimmar queueing nonstop. That is what retail is.
I get your point, but Blizzard sees rewarding and competitive PvP only in form of BGs. Your idea or anything else that will encourage World PvP might be good for modern WoW or other games, but there's no changing that in Classic WoW. I personally don't like and don't want to grind to Rank 14. But people who will get there will be rightfully strong and great and we will admire them :D

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We have this open world in Classic WoW with so much potential, then Blizzard adds Crossrealm Battlegrounds that you can join from a capital city. Look where that led us to.

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RedridgeGnoll wrote:
1 year ago
I am suggesting having a world pvp rank system, so that players who prefer that playstyle can continue to progress doing so.
Yes, I heard you the first 12 times. Having BGs and wPvP simultaneously doesn't solve any of the problems you just admitted to.

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Lendryn wrote:
1 year ago
RedridgeGnoll wrote:
1 year ago
I am suggesting having a world pvp rank system, so that players who prefer that playstyle can continue to progress doing so.
Yes, I heard you the first 12 times. Having BGs and wPvP simultaneously doesn't solve any of the problems you just admitted to.
How can you say that? There would be two systems. One for ranking up in World PvP. One for ranking up in Battlegrounds. Both systems allow players to reach the max ranks. Ranking in one system does not affect ranking in the other. What downside is there?

In Classic WoW, Phase 2 will make World PvP the only way to rank up. Then in Phase 3 Battlegrounds become the only way to rank up. Why not have two ways to rank up instead of just one? It adds content to Classic.

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