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Stfuppercut wrote:
1 year ago
RedridgeGnoll wrote:
1 year ago
The Blue lines encirlcing the zone are for Alliance Boats dropping players off. The Red lines crossing the middle of the zone represent Horde Zeppelins dropping players off across the zone. I don't know what your lines represent.
So you were planning on giving horde mid control at the start of the game with higher access to the entire map? Jesus Christ... Have you actually ever played a video game before? I just imagine the horde mages launching off the zepp with slowfall in all directions immediately grabbing every valuable node while the alliance are slowly waiting to find a spot to jump off, and then swim 10-20 yards before being able to mount... Start every match losing. Sick PvP idea dude.

I think you need to join a battleground and play a few matches before you try and innovate the entire PvP experience.
Honestly, I think both realms should use ships. The boats would let players off right next to the shorline. The Horde boat travels one direction and the Alliance boat travels the opposite direction. You jump off the boat and mount up. Honor would mainly be awarded through players kills and roaming the zone. I do think there should be Keeps that can be taken by large groups however. Large groups can fight over Keeps/Castles for honor. However, roaming as a large group would not be an efficient way to farm honor from player kills.

The whole point of the boat system is so that players enter the Frontier from many directions and can't be camped.

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RedridgeGnoll wrote:
1 year ago
Honestly, I think both realms should use ships. The boats would let players off right next to the shorline. You jump off the boat and mount up. Honor were mainly be awarded through players kills and roaming the zone. I do think there should be Keeps that can be taken by large groups however. Large groups can fight over Keeps/Castles for honor. However, roaming as a large group would not be an efficient way to farm honor from player kills.

The whole point of the boat system is so that players enter the Frontier from many directions and can't be camped.
But that isnt what you said, that isnt what you thought and that isnt what you drew. You didnt even consider the glaring imbalance that would cause until it was outlined. You were going to give a faction mid control. These are the types of oversights you continuously fail to see... Very obvious issues with your ideas. And so this is what we do... You give a terrible idea, I tell you why its terrible, you justify your idea and try to run damage control to salvage it. I give you more critique, you address that critique as if you had already thought of those concerns and we go on and on and on... Your idea never gets better, the idea never improves and we are left with an awful idea that you cant identify as awful. There is nothing here to salvage. You took a failed system (again) and then rehashed it without adding anything new.

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Stfuppercut wrote:
1 year ago
RedridgeGnoll wrote:
1 year ago
Honestly, I think both realms should use ships. The boats would let players off right next to the shorline. You jump off the boat and mount up. Honor were mainly be awarded through players kills and roaming the zone. I do think there should be Keeps that can be taken by large groups however. Large groups can fight over Keeps/Castles for honor. However, roaming as a large group would not be an efficient way to farm honor from player kills.

The whole point of the boat system is so that players enter the Frontier from many directions and can't be camped.
But that isnt what you said, that isnt what you thought and that isnt what you drew. You didnt even consider the glaring imbalance that would cause until it was outlined. You were going to give a faction mid control. These are the types of oversights you continuously fail to see... Very obvious issues with your ideas. And so this is what we do... You give a terrible idea, I tell you why its terrible, you justify your idea and trying to run damage control to salvage it, I give you more critique, you address that critique as if you had already thought of those concerns and we go on and on and on... The idea is awful. There is nothing here to salvage. You took a failed system (again) and then rehashed it without adding anything new.
Where did I outline where the objectives where? The objectives could all be near the shoreline. It isn't about one faction controlling the zone, it is about small scale honor farming. Players enter the zone to search for and kill other players primarily. You want to split players up once they enter the zone. You don't want Horde and Alliance to be entering the zone in the same spot.

Determing what the objectives would be is important. You don't want players farming honor through objectives that are uncontested. You ultimately just want players to spread out and roam. Would having Keeps fights for larger groups be a bad idea, is it better to just never incentivize large group pvp I wonder?

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RedridgeGnoll wrote:
1 year ago
Where did I outline where the objectives where? The objectives could all be near the shoreline.
Previously on RedridgeGnolls big PvP idea...
RedridgeGnoll wrote:
1 year ago
The objectives in the Frontier would be varied and spread out.
Do you see what you're doing here? This is damage control. You previously said the objectives were all spread out. Though, it wouldn't matter if they were near the shore, even if this is clearly not what you intended (you didnt intend for them to be by the shoreline and you didn't know why mid control was important), because mid control would still be superior. Want to know how I know this, and want to know why no one here will disagree with me? Because we have all PvP'd before and having mid control with an easy path to rotate is dominant positioning and will win. Many teams will opt to sacrifice a node just to hold mid control because it is so strategically valuable.

Your lack of insight is telling. You should not be proposing PvP ideas because you dont understand the core fundamentals of PvP.

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Stfuppercut wrote:
1 year ago
RedridgeGnoll wrote:
1 year ago
Where did I outline where the objectives where? The objectives could all be near the shoreline.
Do you see what you're doing here? This is damage control. You previously said the objectives were all spread out. Though, it wouldn't matter if they were near the shore, even if this is clearly not what you intended (you didnt intend for them to be by the short and you didnt know why mid control was important), because mid control would still be superior. Want to know how I know this, and want to know why no one here will disagree with me? Because we have all PvP'd before and having mid control with an easy path to rotate is dominant positioning and will win. Many teams will opt to sacrifice a node just to hold mid control because it is so strategically valuable.

Your lack of insight is telling. You should not be proposing PvP ideas because you dont understand the core fundamentals of PvP.
The Frontier isn't about controlling objectives. It is about roaming and killing players in small groups. This isn't some faction v faction large scale battle for control. The whole purpose of the objectives are to just move small groups players around the zone Besides you could always try using boats for both factions instead.. Do I think there could be a large scale objective somewhere? It would be interesting, but you have to realistically make it so that large groups can't reliably farm honor from player kills.

I get back to the premise of having Horde and Alliance in a Frontier. Why would they zerg if only one single group earns honor? Why would they zerg if the objectives could only be controlled by individual players or small groups? If the honor gains are low for zergs, then why would they even bother and not BG instead? In Dark Age of Camelot there were no battlegrounds at max level, so there were no options. Zerging isn't the only issue, it is just the concept of large groups. 5+ players fighting 2-3 players. That is what Frontiers are trying to discourage. Competitive PvPers want small scale encounters.

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RedridgeTroll gonna farm himself up to 60.

Don't feed the troll, let him post his dumb ideas for himself.

/thumbsdown

/Mooo

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Erik wrote:
1 year ago
RedridgeTroll gonna farm himself up to 60.

Don't feed the troll, let him post his dumb ideas for himself.

/thumbsdown

/Mooo
Still more than 30 days left, this man is providing us all with solid content, regardless if it is fictional. Im all in.

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RedridgeGnoll wrote:
1 year ago
The Frontier isn't about controlling objectives. It is about roaming and killing players in small groups. This isn't some faction v faction large scale battle for control. The whole purpose of the objectives is to just move small groups players around the zone Besides you could always try using boats for both factions instead.. Do I think there could be a large scale objective somewhere? It would be interesting, but you have to realistically make it so that large groups can't reliably farm honor from player kills.

I get back to the premise of having Horde and Alliance in a Frontier. Why would they zerg if only one single group earns honor? Why would they zerg if the objectives could only be controlled by individual players or small groups? If the honor gains are low for zergs, then why would they even bother and not BG instead? In Dark Age of Camelot there were no battlegrounds at max level, so there were no options. Zerging isn't the only issue, it is just the concept of large groups. 5+ players fighting 2-3 players. That is what Frontiers are trying to discourage.
Your idea is all over the place... You cant even keep it straight. First it was open world, then there were population caps. First we had objectives spread out, and now the objective is to get kills (which will be a MASSIVE concern with faction imbalance). First you drew a diagram where horde had mid control, and then you said you wanted both teams to be on boats... You should probably get your head straight and figure out what YOU want before you try and sell it to the rest of us.

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Stfuppercut wrote:
1 year ago
RedridgeGnoll wrote:
1 year ago
The Frontier isn't about controlling objectives. It is about roaming and killing players in small groups. This isn't some faction v faction large scale battle for control. The whole purpose of the objectives is to just move small groups players around the zone Besides you could always try using boats for both factions instead.. Do I think there could be a large scale objective somewhere? It would be interesting, but you have to realistically make it so that large groups can't reliably farm honor from player kills.

I get back to the premise of having Horde and Alliance in a Frontier. Why would they zerg if only one single group earns honor? Why would they zerg if the objectives could only be controlled by individual players or small groups? If the honor gains are low for zergs, then why would they even bother and not BG instead? In Dark Age of Camelot there were no battlegrounds at max level, so there were no options. Zerging isn't the only issue, it is just the concept of large groups. 5+ players fighting 2-3 players. That is what Frontiers are trying to discourage.
Your idea is all over the place... You cant even keep it straight. First it was open world, then there were population caps. First we had objectives spread out, and now the objective is to get kills (which will be a MASSIVE concern with faction imbalance). First you drew a diagram where horde had mid control, and then you said you wanted both teams to be on boats... You should probably get your head straight and figure out what YOU want before you try and sell it to the rest of us.
I absolutely think that Frontiers should be free of sharding and instancing. Having it be server-only is always preferable. I have made concessions, because I think it is important to explore any criticism of the system. Boats, Zeppelins... the whole point is so that players don't enter the Frontier at the same location so there is no camping. Faction imbalance is mitigated in the following ways. Frontiers are designed to incentivize small scale PvP. This means honor is restricted to single groups or players. Honor gained is heavily and incrementally diminished the larger a group size is. There are underpopulation bonuses for capturing objectives and killing enemies. The goal being to promote Arena-type PvP fights.

I am concerned about having repeatable objectives that one faction can just complete over and over. Objectives should reward players once upon capture, then award additional honor if they are defended. You have this perception that if one faction is outnumbered that they will be ganged up on. If there are 20 horde and 6 Alliance in the zone, then the 20 horde won't be incentivized to group up to hunt the 6 alliance. If those 20 horde are split into small roaming groups, the population imbalance in the zone is not that important. Population imbalance in a zone doesn't guarantee unfair fights. That is evidenced by World PvP zones like searing gorge and eastern plaguelands.

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@Stfuppercut so you are grinding here! :biggrin:

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s1atan wrote:
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@Stfuppercut so you are grinding here! :biggrin:
TBC ain't out yet.

   s1atan
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RedridgeGnoll wrote:
1 year ago
The Frontier isn't about controlling objectives. It is about roaming and killing players in small groups.
> Not about structured content
> Winning an objective is insignificant and you wouldn't bother trying to 'win'
> There are nodes for some reason but they don't matter
> Idea is to walk around by yourself outside to find other players to PVP

I have a revolutionary idea to revitalize world PVP

There could be this zone outside of cities. These zones aren't controlled by either faction, making them kind of 'contested'. There could be drop ships where you are delivered into this 'contested zone' to begin competing. To keep the Warcraft theme going, the alliance could ride these big birds and the horde could ride on a flying lion or something. The drop ships would be on some kind of path, I guess it could be called a 'flight path'.

There could be nodes for players to collect in this 'contested zone'. They wouldn't help you win the contested zone, but they would lure people in to play. These nodes could help people with their professions. Think about chunks of rock that you could pick at and loot metals for blacksmithing, or beds of flowers that could be picked. Or you could get in fights with animals and take their skins.

Players would be able to fight other players from the opposing faction. This would be called player vs player, I guess it could be referred to as 'PvP'. And the fights would be very honorable since they are done in the name of your faction's leader, so players could be rewarded with points. These points could be called 'honor points'.

So you'd have all these loose objectives drawing people in. Players would come to find these nodes, and other players would be incentivized to kill them for points.

It would be an outdoor world event, so the nodes and animals would just respawn automatically over time.

If only this system already existed. It would be great to be able to just go outside of town and find players from the other faction to fight.

Maybe one day in classic+ we'll get these 'contested zones' with 'mining and gathering nodes' inside connected by walking or taking 'flight paths' where people could run into each other and engage in 'PvP'.

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Another idea for my 'contested territory' idea

You could form a group of friends and people you regularly play with. It could be called a collective, or maybe a 'guild'.

If you got into trouble in one of these 'contested zones' then you could call for backup from people in your 'guild' to drop in reinforcements from the 'flight paths' to help engage in 'PvP'.

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s1atan wrote:
1 year ago
@Stfuppercut so you are grinding here! :biggrin:
I think we all are at this point. When there's no claasic to play, the only game that remains is the shitposting game.

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Threads like this are what keep this community so healthy. This is our purge. We come here, we beat the shit out of redridge. He trolls. We all have fun and then we can be civil in other threads. Its a pretty good relationship... Possibly unhealthy, but it seems to be working.

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Pippina wrote:
1 year ago
RedridgeGnoll wrote:
1 year ago
The Frontier isn't about controlling objectives. It is about roaming and killing players in small groups.
> Not about structured content
> Winning an objective is insignificant and you wouldn't bother trying to 'win'
> There are nodes for some reason but they don't matter
> Idea is to walk around by yourself outside to find other players to PVP

I have a revolutionary idea to revitalize world PVP

There could be this zone outside of cities. These zones aren't controlled by either faction, making them kind of 'contested'. There could be drop ships where you are delivered into this 'contested zone' to begin competing. To keep the Warcraft theme going, the alliance could ride these big birds and the horde could ride on a flying lion or something. The drop ships would be on some kind of path, I guess it could be called a 'flight path'.

There could be nodes for players to collect in this 'contested zone'. They wouldn't help you win the contested zone, but they would lure people in to play. These nodes could help people with their professions. Think about chunks of rock that you could pick at and loot metals for blacksmithing, or beds of flowers that could be picked. Or you could get in fights with animals and take their skins.

Players would be able to fight other players from the opposing faction. This would be called player vs player, I guess it could be referred to as 'PvP'. And the fights would be very honorable since they are done in the name of your faction's leader, so players could be rewarded with points. These points could be called 'honor points'.

So you'd have all these loose objectives drawing people in. Players would come to find these nodes, and other players would be incentivized to kill them for points.

It would be an outdoor world event, so the nodes and animals would just respawn automatically over time.

If only this system already existed. It would be great to be able to just go outside of town and find players from the other faction to fight.

Maybe one day in classic+ we'll get these 'contested zones' with 'mining and gathering nodes' inside connected by walking or taking 'flight paths' where people could run into each other and engage in 'PvP'.
Because those zones are full of players leveling. Those zones also have flightmasters that can be camped. Frontiers are for level 60s. You can't rank up doing World PvP once battlegrounds are released, and the world PvP objectives in the contested zones are pointless. I don't think this Frontier concept is refined enough, and having mobs/nodes for level 60s in the frontiers could always work.

Ideally players in larger groups can fight over Keeps and objectives in the Frontier. The issue is when these large groups start roaming zones and killing solo/small mans. That is what Frontiers seek to prevent. You can't realistically achieve high honor ranks doing World PvP once battlegrounds are released. The purpose of Frontiers is to sort of change that, and give players more options. It is a daunting undertaking, because once you designate a zone for World PvP, it can be cause many problems. What largely makes Classic World PvP somewhat successful, is that the players in the contested zones are not actively seeking it out.

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@RedridgeGnoll After reading through both your and @Stfuppercut posts. I just want to say you do realise what you're asking for is open world pvp with small encounters, which literally happens on pvp servers, where there is open world pvp, and people are usually solo or in small groups...

What you're trying to do is literally take something already in the game which works quite well, and try to make it an inferior instanced or open world thing (still can't figure out which one it is you seem to go back and forth very fast)

   Selexin
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I still stick by my original conspiracy theory - @RedridgeGnoll works for Blizz, and is throwing around these crazy Classic+ ideas for testing/market research and taking the comprehensive responses from @Stfuppercut back to Blizz HQ for further brainstorming. You'll see Uppercut in the credits of Classic+ for sure, maybe even an NPC named after him.

Please note; RedridgeGnoll never rises to the bait of people calling him out, calling him a troll or generally being more directly disdainful of his posts.... He only ever offers further changes, adaptions or explanations for his ideas. Intriguing isn't it?

/tinfoilhat

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Selexin wrote:
1 year ago
I still stick by my original conspiracy theory - @RedridgeGnoll works for Blizz, and is throwing around these crazy Classic+ ideas for testing/market research and taking the comprehensive responses from @Stfuppercut back to Blizz HQ for further brainstorming. You'll see Uppercut in the credits of Classic+ for sure, maybe even an NPC named after him.

Please note; RedridgeGnoll never rises to the bait of people calling him out, calling him a troll or generally being more directly disdainful of his posts.... He only ever offers further changes, adaptions or explanations for his ideas. Intriguing isn't it?

/tinfoilhat
Imagine if this were true?
Blizzard is screwed then if these are there ideas lol

Also this is probably the best way to level to 60, "...only ever offers further changes, adaptions or explanations...", keep talking to @Stfuppercut

   Stfuppercut Selexin
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Apol wrote:
1 year ago
@RedridgeGnoll After reading through both your and @Stfuppercut posts. I just want to say you do realise what you're asking for is open world pvp with small encounters, which literally happens on pvp servers, where there is open world pvp, and people are usually solo or in small groups...

What you're trying to do is literally take something already in the game which works quite well, and try to make it an inferior instanced or open world thing (still can't figure out which one it is you seem to go back and forth very fast)
You have to understand level 60 endgame. It is all Battleground farming. Premades stomping randoms all day. That is crossrealm battlegrounds. Blizzard realized that players wanted a more competitive pvp system, one which was designed around small scale fights.

Arena isn't in Classic, that is why Frontiers are being proposed. The Frontiers would be an area where level 60 players would be able to roam and partake in small scale PvP. It is about making World PvP more competitive than the flightmaster/low level ganking that happens in contested zones. Does the idea need refinement. Of course. What what makes MMO PvP special is the open world nature of it. You can't replicate that in FPS, RTS, or MOBAs.

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>How can these PvP Frontiers be balanced and make it fair to players both factions?

This is pretty simple actually.

The solution is to have a mandatory Gameplay Education Exam before entering this zone. The Frontier zone is walled off and has a bunch of locked doors. The only way to enter the zone is to enter a classroom environment, where you must sit though a 30 minute lecture on the principals of the 'Frontier Playstyle Experience'. Core tenants of the zone are explained in a brief 300 page document. Ideas such as 'thou shalt not zerg' and 'you're supposed to roam in small groups' and 'there are objectives, but they don't matter, so just roam around by yourself' are explained. Without any reason, but they are explained. At the end of the playstyle lecture, an exam is given. Kind of like a DMV driver's license exam. You must get at least 80 of the 100 questions correct in order to obtain your Fronteir PvP Zone License™.

Once inside the Frontier PvP Zone, the PvP Enjoyment begins. You must abide by the principals of the frontier. If you get too close to any other character on your faction, a Frontier Playstyle Enforcement Officer will drive up in a Frontier PvP Playstyle Patrol Car and issue a Frontier Playstyle Warning Citation. The Frontier Playstyle Warning Officer reminds you that for your enjoyment you must spread out and roam by yourself. If you fail to comply within 30 seconds then the Frontier Playstyle Enforcement Officer calls for backup and a second Frontier Playstyle Enforcement Officer will arrive, followed by a third. Your character will be arrested for violating the Frontier Playstyle Experience Code Of Conduct, and you will be returned to the Frontier Playstyle Enforcement Holding Cell. Blizzard could re-use existing art assets here, and use the GM Island jail for this use:



Your character would be held in the Frontier Playstyle Enforcement Holding Cell for 3 hours of game time for the first offense, 6 hours of game time for the second offense, and 12 hours of game time for third and subsequent violations of the Frontier Playstyle Experience Code Of Conduct. To make sure players learn their lesson, they will have to remain logged in the entire time to serve their sentence. And to make sure players don't sleep this time off, players will have to prove that they are sitting at their computer and attentive throughout the duration of their sentence. This will be proven by moving their character to different colored circles on the ground every few minutes. This prevents people skipping out on time served for violations of the Frontier Playstyle Experience Code Of Conduct.

After a player serves their time in the Frontier Playstyle Enforcement Holding Cell, they will have to re-take the Frontier Gameplay Education Exam, not unlike a person trying to get their driver's license back after being chaged with a DUI.


> This seems like a good idea, and solves the problem with players teaming up in large groups. How would the faction imbalance issue be solved?


The Frontier Playstyle Experience Code Of Conduct will mandate an even outcome regardless of how lopsided the factions are. This is actually pretty simple. The honor points from each faction will be displayed at the top of the screen. Any time one faction gets more than 3% more honor kills than the other, Frontier Playstyle Enforcement Officers will be dispatched from the Frontier Playstyle Enforcement Station in patrol cars. The Frontier Playstyle Enforcement Officers will go out to players on the winning faction and remind them that it is not fun for the other side to have less honor kills, and remind players that they must immediately go find an enemy player and offer their bodies to them for an honor kill. Players will have 30 seconds to offer themselves to an opposing player and allow themselves to be killed by a player on the opposing faction. Players that fail to comply within 30 seconds will be rounded up and sent to the Frontier Playstyle Enforcement Holding Cell, similar to players that refuse to spread out and Roam Freely™.

I think with sufficient penal code and enforcement officer NPCs, this Frontier zone idea is actually pretty good. The Rules of Enjoyment just need to be clearly codified and all violators must be subject to strict punishment.

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Pippina wrote:
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Words of Wisdom
Got alot of good ideas sir

Question: How does one apply to become A Frontier Playstyle Enforcement Officer?

What classes do I need to attend to become one?
And when do I get my gun?

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@Selexin I thought you were joking!

 Blizzard Entertainment
Arena isn't in Classic, that is why Frontiers are being proposed. - <Senior Game Manager> RedridgeGnollizzard

   Selexin
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#nochanges

<Dungeon Grind / Tempo> Fairbanks NA PvP Alliance...... https://discord.gg/GMph6a Come find your duo partner or dungeon cleave team for Classic. And join us for raiding quickly after Classic launches.
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Pippina I love the enthusiasm. The Frontier system is modeled after Dark Age of Camelot. It was a popular MMO in its time. The game had 3 factions, and each faction had its own Frontier, which were PvP zones with Castles. If your faction controlled the most castles, then you would earn access to a special PvE dungeon, as well as World Buffs.

I think that something similar could work in Classic. I am aware that faction imbalances exist in open world pvp. I have suggested measures to help underpopulated realms fighting in the Frontier. The problem with Dark Age of Camelot was that you basically needed a full group to have success in the Frontier. This meant 8 players and specific classes. Groups had all kinds of speed and buff advantages as well, which further separated the haves and have nots in the Frontiers. Fortunately, WoW open world PvP was never that group reliant. The classes can all solo pretty well. Having a designated open world area where the Horde and Alliance can fight is something never properly implemented in WoW. In any open world pvp mmo the main emphasis always needs to be on small scale PvP. I do think that a keep style system in a WoW frontier could work, but you can't reward large group roaming/ganking. Large group fights should be over keeps/castles. Reclaiming castles as the underdog faction could be a fulfilling experience. Too much emphasis on large scale pvp was the downfall of DAOC and every other PvP MMO.

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