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Poll  •  Frost or Elemental for PVP with poverty gear
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Horde
3 months ago (Beta)
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Thanks to those who contributed to my discussion on the least gear dependent classes, specifically with a focus on PVP.

Based in part on that discussion, I'm leaning toward playing a mage as my main.

I've done some research on my own and watched a fair amount of PVP videos (mostly Vurtne) and I'm hoping to get some opinions from this community on frost vs. elemental.

Is elemental a more gear dependent spec or is it comparable to frost in that respect? It seems like Vurtne might have started with frost and settled into elemental and I'm wondering if that was driven by the acquisition of gear or if it is simply a superior, more versatile or more enjoyable spec.

For those who are knowledgeable about the class, with the aforementioned in mind, is there a preferred order for selecting talents in either of the two specs I mentioned?

Thanks in advance for taking the time to respond. Have an awesome day all...

Cheers.

Hillsbrad Foothills
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Alliance
Paladin
3 months ago (Beta)
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Frost is superior, with or without gear, but Elemental is really fun to play. I also started with Frost and drifted into Elemental eventually, but that was for a change of pace and because it was enjoyable.

Also, keep in mind that although Vurtne is undoubtedly the OG, many of his videos are World PvP against a random gaggle of players, many of which are quite clueless. Not that what he pulls off isn't challenging, because he does tend to juggle multiple opponents at once, but it's not a good indication of what to expect against an organized AB or WSG premade.

My advice is wait until you gear up before trying out Elemental. You're going to need that extra STA to deal with the lack of ice barrier. Also, you will miss improved counterspell - at higher skill levels your opponents will be more adept at baiting your counterspells with cast cancels.

   ejangle Stfuppercut
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Horde
3 months ago (Beta)
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@rijndael Appreciate the info. Assuming I'll be mixing in battlegrounds as I level, what spec (and talent selection order) would you recommend? I'm willing to play a sub-optimal leveling build if it gains me greater viability in PVP, especially given I won't be ahead of the pack and will probably be faced with more world PVP encounters as I level in contested zones.

Are there any vanilla frost mage players/videos you'd recommend? Perhaps videos that include a mixture of BGs and world PVP...

Cheers.

Undercity
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Horde
Shaman
3 months ago (Beta)
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What am I missing, are you talking about doing a frost mage or an elemental shaman? Or are you referring to Mage's fire spec as elemental?

Hillsbrad Foothills
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Alliance
Paladin
3 months ago (Beta)
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Luckily for you Frost is solid in both PvP and PvE and you won't really need to sacrifice much either way, you can make slight adjustments here and there as needed.

Be aware that PvP while leveling is messy. You will get ganked. Fights won't be fair. In most cases one talent point here and there is not going to make much of a difference aside from the core 1 pointer frost cooldowns.

First, I suggest you watch this:

Then, you can make some PvP-centric modifications to his build recommendations depending on our preference, such as:
- Forego maxing out Winter's Chill in favor of Imp. Cone of Cold to improve burst damage
- Forego maxing out Piercing Ice in favor of talents like Permafrost to improve kiting ability

The most noteworthy talents are:
- Ice Block, Ice Barrier, Cold Snap are phenomenal gank preventative abilities, so you'll always take them as soon as they're available on the way down the tree.
- The Frost Nova, Shatter & Ice Shards synergy will allow you to nuke a mofo. Frostbite talent is icing on that cake.

Oh, and if your focus is PvP, go engineering. Half of the shit Vurtne pulls in his videos is due to that.

   ejangle Artmos
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Hillsbrad Foothills
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Paladin
3 months ago (Beta)
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snickerwicket wrote:
3 months ago
What am I missing, are you talking about doing a frost mage or an elemental shaman? Or are you referring to Mage's fire spec as elemental?
He's referring to the Mage "Elemental" (0/24/27) build and how it stacks up against pure Frost (17/0/34):
https://classicdb.ch/?talent#oZVgMzf0uZVzGhkbth

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Undercity
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Shaman
3 months ago (Beta)
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rijndael wrote:
3 months ago
snickerwicket wrote:
3 months ago
What am I missing, are you talking about doing a frost mage or an elemental shaman? Or are you referring to Mage's fire spec as elemental?
He's referring to the Mage "Elemental" (0/24/27) build and how it stacks up against pure Frost (17/0/34):
https://classicdb.ch/?talent#oZVgMzf0uZVzGhkbth
Oh I see!

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Horde
3 months ago (Beta)
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@rijndael Thanks again my friend. I'll take a look at the video and stuff this evening when I get home from work. Sincerely appreciate you taking the time to respond.

I planned to go engineering but I'm not sure if I want to start off with mining and engineering straight away or pick up skinning to sell leather and make a bit of extra cash as I level.

Cheers.

Tirisfal Glades
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Undead
Mage
3 months ago (Beta)
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It will depend more so on your play style and skill level rather than gear. That's not to say a naked mage will be able to take down another mage in full Naxx gear (but possibly a Naxx geared warrior lol). The greatest advantage you will have as a mage in vanilla is knowing how other classes work because unlike retail WoW, classes in Classic are more nuanced and very few have self heals. That being said, a knowledgeable aggressive-playing elemental mage will be able to put down enough damage to put an opponent on the defensive (at a minimum) and burn them down. The key to staying alive as an elemental mage is to stay on the move and be the aggressor.
Frost mages are great to beginner mages because there is so much defense within the spec. Frostbite procs are a great way to create space and do some really good damage. The only downside is that everyone is going to be frost mages and everyone you run up against is going to know what they are in for against a frost mage.
All of the above is something to keep in mind once you hit 60. To answer your question about the preferred order of selecting talents I would strongly advise you level as frost and follow This https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... nknown.png for single target or this https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... nknown.png for AOE. Trying to level as elemental is a mana nightmare. Level as frost and then respec if you want at 60.

*There is a fantastic mage discord channel you should familiarize yourself with over the next month if you have not already. It is located at viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1091 under "Mage Specific" > "[Discord] Mage Classic"

   ejangle teebling
Our time will come.
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Horde
3 months ago (Beta)
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@Cletus Thanks so much for the info, I really appreciate it. I have to say this community is effing magical... absent the typical fuckery that seems to be present in most MMO communities or just forums in general, where the anonymity of the interweb seems to breed a special type of douche'baggery. Ahhh... Feelings...

Anyways... I tend to have a more aggressive playstyle so I think elemental will ultimately be more fun for me, especially considering frost will be the more common spec. I'm good with a learning curve or a spec that forces skill vs. button mashing.

At this point, I am planning to play horde and while I intend to do a fair amount of world PvP, the majority of my PvP'ing will occur in battlegrounds. With that said, should being on the horde side influence my spec? I ask because Alliance have Paladins, which have the ability to negate a large amount of the control that frost talents offer... I just don't know if it will happen enough to render the spec ineffective.

Let's keep the discussion going. Have an awesome day all.

Cheers.

Hillsbrad Foothills
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Alliance
Paladin
3 months ago (Beta)
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ejangle wrote:
3 months ago
At this point, I am planning to play horde and while I intend to do a fair amount of world PvP, the majority of my PvP'ing will occur in battlegrounds. With that said, should being on the horde side influence my spec? I ask because Alliance have Paladins which have the ability to negate a large amount of the control that frost talents offer... I just don't know if it will happen enough to render the spec ineffective.
It's true that blessings are a pain in the ass for a Mage, but Shaman can purge them. It will not negate enough to make Frost ineffective, the Pally can only Blessing of Freedom one target at a time. The important thing to remember as a Mage is that CC won't be as effective against a good Pally because he'll Blessing of Sacrifice his allies to break out of Poly, so you really need to time those counterspells to lock them out of the holy tree for enough time to do some damage. In fact, this is such a glaring weakness in Pallies that they will sometimes proactively bubble in the critical seconds at the beginning of a major fight to ensure that they can get some big heals off on their targeted ally without worrying about CS, since geared toons in Vanilla can focus fire players down in a matter of seconds.

I think your avatar already implies this but do roll Undead. WotF is phenomenal for PvP.

   ejangle
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Mulgore
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Tauren
3 months ago (Beta)
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ejangle wrote:
3 months ago
I have to say this community is effing magical... absent the typical fuckery that seems to be present in most MMO communities or just forums in general, where the anonymity of the interweb seem to breed a special type of douche'baggery. Ahhh... Feelings...
I believe you are referring to John Gabriel's Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory:
Image

   ejangle teebling
I have nothing fancy to add here, but if you've never played Binary Domain, you should.
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Hillsbrad Foothills
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Paladin
3 months ago (Beta)
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Jon Bloodspray wrote:
3 months ago
I believe you are referring to John Gabriel's Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory:
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A timeless Penny Arcade classic.

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Warlock Affliction
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Horde
Warlock
3 months ago (Beta)
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rijndael wrote:
3 months ago
Also, you will miss improved counterspell - at higher skill levels your opponents will be more adept at baiting your counterspells with cast cancels.
And baiting with hearthstone casting :wink:

Frost is king, control and defense!

But I enjoy the non-cookie cutter specs though!
I really like blast wave and when TBC hit I fell in love with dragons breathe!
I would pvp as almost full fire! Blast wave, dragons breathe and igniting your opponent! Was fun but dangerous! No defense!

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| Nýxt - Affliction Warlock | Kirtonos PVP | Level 38 |
| Fatherbatch - Holy Priest | Kirtonos PVP | Level 1 |
Mulgore
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US Smolderweb
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Mage
4 days ago (1.13.2)
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How would a deep frost/pyroblast build work?

Don't even think it would be considered deep frost at that point, but you get what I mean.

Frost all the way w. pyroblast built-in, mainly for the meme. Thoughts?

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