I know what I'm about duki :)

Watched your video a while ago. Good stuff.

Starting my own guild with some old school players - sitting at a solid 20 man core right now. Should be able to get some quality raid tanking footage.

Gard wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Starting my own guild with some old school players - sitting at a solid 20 man core right now. Should be able to get some quality raid tanking footage.

Good luck , anything i can help you with ,feel free to poke ;)

Gard wrote: ↑

5 years ago

I know what I'm about duki :)

Watched your video a while ago. Good stuff.

Starting my own guild with some old school players - sitting at a solid 20 man core right now. Should be able to get some quality raid tanking footage.

Be sure to get some footage on progression so we can really figure out how viable this is!!! Super excited to watch your progress!

Gard wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Caspus wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Prot paladin best paladin.

I remember you. Ossi tanking I think.

Ossi is one of my favorite fights to tank. AQ20 is a lot of fun.

For anyone not aware, duki has spent the last several years on a constant propaganda campaign to convince the vanilla community that paladins are actually excellent tanks or DPS, and alluding to a bunch of evidence that he either can't provide or provides in the form of highly questionable cherrypicked screenshots/videos. All the way back to the early days of Nostalrius, he was shitting up their forums with long debates about how paladins are great at all roles and everyone's just too stupid to see it. If you're inclined to believe his nonsense, beware that he's extremely dishonest and manipulative.

In my point of view I dont really care if they're bad or not. I never felt the need to prove myself for everything I do.

When I started tanking as a paladin I basically ignored every guide, every how to video, all the fourm naysayers and just figured it out for myself. I had a lot of failures and a lot of surprises. I altered my strategies to get around hurdles and created my own playstyle that worked most of the time depending on how drunk I was.

My recommendation to newer players is just do it and ignore everyone else. Figure it out for yourself if you enjoy doing it. Dont be scared of failure or messing up. You will never learn otherwise. Is playing prot challenging? No. Does it require some more grinding in regards to resources, consumes, gear? Yes. (Wow grinding in vanilla? Ridiculous!)


I'll be playing prot paladin regardless as I have for half a decade. Don't let forum bickering decide for you. Most people dont give a shit and a lot of guilds enjoy the extra challenge of changing it up with a pally tank, moonkin, etc.

Tldr: dont let nerds decide what you should do

I agree with most of this. I do think guides are great, and I do think re-inventing the wheel is maybe not the best approach when you are trying to fit into a guild where 39 other people have expectations of killing bosses.

However given the state of the information on Paladin tanking at the moment, I dont think your approach is too bad. Like you, I also figured out most of what I know on my own during my year on Northdale. A lot of what I do is based on how I approached Palatanking in TBC both in 2007 and on private servers, which I then adapted to Vanilla's Paladin mechanics and pve mechanics.

I do think playing Protection Paladin requires a special kind of mindset though. It's for sure not for everyone, and you have to be willing to put up with a very strong stigma against the class, as well as being willing to overcome the challenges that playing Paladin pose compared to other tanks.

But plenty of players have done it. Caspus is one of the people I actually look up to as far as Paladin tanking goes. He has extensive experience tanking raids, and has made the class work in a raid scenario.

I'll quote this part of Caspus post, as this is really the most important part:

Caspus wrote: ↑

5 years ago

My recommendation to newer players is just do it and ignore everyone else.

If you REALLY want to play Protection Paladin, then just do it. If you work hard and you are willing to learn and do a lot of work trying to find solutions to each problem you will face then you will be rewarded for your efforts. Just dont expect the class to perform at the same level as the other tanks and dont expect easy raidspots like a good Warrior/Druid tank will get. As long as you are well aware of this, and you are willing to work around that then Im sure you will eventually find a raidspot where you get to play the spec you want to play.

If you enjoy problem solving and figuring out solutions on making a janky class work. (Because it can work) you'll enjoy it a lot and will certainly impress yourself and others as you play. Protection paladins reflect the actual players ability and determination. The player carries the spec more than the spec carries the player.

If you want to to have a more casual say experience, more laid back (for lack of better term) then warrior will be a better choice for the "just wanna get shit done" type of player.

If you're into min/maxing to the furthest degree and wanna speed run raid content then go warrior.

Protection paladin is best explained as a tryhardy spec in a relaxed environment. You can get everything done but not to the highest degree (and that's okay).

Hi palatanks enthusiasts, I've been wondering if there was a big difference between humans and dwarfs racials when it comes to this role. What would you recommend? I have to say I'm more into female dwarves... :)

When it comes down to it play what you want.

But I prefer humans basically because of Sword and Mace spec which gives +5 weapon skill to mace/sword. This helps out on overall threat. You also have diplomacy which is my favorite racial in the game because 10% rep makes the game that much easier overall (at least for me).

Dwarves have stone form which clears and makes you immune to all disease and poison and gives a extra 10% armor while the ability is up. Since you're a paladin you can already get rid of disease and poison with cleanse though a mana free "cleanse" is nice when you're stretching out your mana and the 10% armor isn't crazy (but it can be nice on some bosses)

In my experiences I always preferred human. I always aim to maximize threat. But if you like dwarves and a little extra mitigation and a free cleanse then go for it.

Zephyr wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Hi palatanks enthusiasts, I've been wondering if there was a big difference between humans and dwarfs racials when it comes to this role. What would you recommend? I have to say I'm more into female dwarves... :)

Human is the clear choice if you intend to do any sort of bosstanking.

Why? Because most tank weapons are swords or maces, which means you will be able to take advantage of the +5 weapon skill at any point throughout the game. Because there's very little gear with chance to hit available for a Protpala, in practice a Dwarf Paladin tank will never be able to reach hitcap without severely gimping their gear.

A Human however can, as having the racial and speccing into Precision in the prot tree means you need a total of 3% less hit to reach the cap than a Dwarf for a total hitcap of 3% from gear. This is perfectly attainable by just wearing more or less regular gear, especially late game when some tank gear starts to get hit on it as well.

For everything that isnt a boss such as raid trash, boss adds, or dungeons it makes no real difference which race you pick. I dont consider the human reputation racial to be that good. There's not a lot of factions where this rep will actually matter. Unless you intend to farm rep like timbermaw, thorium brotherhood etc, then all the factions you need rep with are so easy to get exalted with anyway.

The only really timeconsuming one would be Zul'Gurub, but at most you talk about saving 100g or so in Bijous on the auction house. Not worth picking human for that alone. It's really the weapon skill racial that makes Human the king of PvE on Alliance. 3% hit from a racial is HUGE, and the glancing blow damage reduction, while not that great for a Paladin is still just a nice icing on the cake.

Thanks a lot for your detailed answers guys! My first ever char back then was a human paladin, I will reconsider it :)

I should have ended my previous post with a "Play what race you prefer".

At the end of the day, you play to enjoy the game. If you want to play dwarf and not human, then just do it. The difference in the grand scheme of things is not that huge.

Holyfrog wrote: ↑

5 years ago

I agree with most of this. I do think guides are great, and I do think re-inventing the wheel is maybe not the best approach when you are trying to fit into a guild where 39 other people have expectations of killing bosses.

This is everything. If you are solo, make self-interested decisions. If you are part of a team, make decisions that benefit your team. Create value and you will be valuable. Create a deficit and you will be disposable. In all situations in life, not just raiding.

This is a video game, its not that serious. Play however you want, be nice to people and make friends.

Caspus wrote: ↑

5 years ago

This is a video game, its not that serious. Play however you want, be nice to people and make friends.

True enough. I have played on numerous rec sports teams with adults on the weekends. There was still a base amount of coordination and teamwork that is necessary to have fun. If you plan on playing a rec hockey game and 5 goalies show up, it wont be fun. If someone attempts to be the goalie without any goalie equipment this also wont be fun. Teamwork requires a bit of selflessness in any circumstance.

Yes but this is a video game. The same game where you can kill ony with 40 priests or even 4 man it. I would argue playing a pickup softball game takes more coordination and teamwork than raiding BWL. You don't need a min max comp to clear content smoothly. There are going to be many guilds with a lot of memes running around clearing content like everyone else.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree then =). A group of 40 players playing selfishly with no regard for the team or success will just end in full blown failure. Video game or not, it is a team-based activity.

Caspus wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Prot paladin best paladin.

I just had to create an account just to say you are Shimmering Platinum in this Warhammer to the head thread.

I do agree with that fully 100%. 40 people being selfish will lead to failure. But that has nothing to do with if someone is playing a different spec or not. Unless in your mind you're imagining a guild with all the tanks being prot paladins, 18 of the dps are arcane mages, smite priests and feral druids and all the healers are specced shadow/ret/feral so they can pvp afterwards. Then yes that would crash and burn. But i'd have a feeling that guild would struggle to figure out how discord works before they even step foot in a raid.

Everyone is selfish to a degree. No one plays this game purely on the fact of teamwork and doing whats best for the guild. There are selfish desires mixed into everything.

I've seen min/max, everything perfect speed clearing guilds crash and burn after clearing AQ40 on release day and guilds with off-specs like ret paladins/prot, moonkins, smite priests etc clear most of naxx which started at launch day.

I've been in a speed clearing guild on Northdale on my orc warrior. Min/max everyone was the correct race/spec. 38 minute MC clear was the record I was apart of, 45 minutes for BWL, AQ40 cleared at launch. But the guild was full of toxic pricks so it died. At the same time there is a guild running around with memespecs clearing naxx as we speak.

Guild survival is based solely on the personalities of the people playing and the leadership. Not by what people play as a class/spec (Of course you need a balance of tanks, dps and healers...But its a MMO and people aren't hard to find.). I can attest to this because I played Protection Paladin since the launch of lightbringer and progressed MC all the way to naxx without tossing on a dress to heal while i've watched guilds with the perfect comp, perfect setup, tryhard to the max burnout and die before AQ was released.

Tldr: It doesn't matter what you play to clear content

Caspus wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Tldr: It doesn't matter what you play to clear content

Play what I find most enjoyable and make it work for me? Fun? Enjoyment? NOT OPTIMAL?

UNHEARD OF

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

5 years ago

If you do get the chance, I think this video will help shed some light on prot pally tanking in vanilla Gauze.



Most of this was covered throughout the thread, but the information is a bit more credible coming from someone with a lot of prot pally experience. For context, the video you will be watching has gameplay of a VERY geared prot paladin clearing a very entry level piece of content and you can still see the mana issues that were discussed. He has some interesting insight on gearing as well.

Bear in mind that this footage is from private. So it is entirely possible that prot paladins will be the BEEZ KNEEZ in Classic, if private values were WAY off... But lets be real, this will probably be your reality give or take a little inaccuracy here or there.

edit: It's really funny to think about the juxtaposition of some of these meme specs. Most of these specs are inherently suboptimal but require a player to min/max in an effort to make them viable? So you have to be a min/maxer and intentionally choose a suboptimal spec and then min/max just to become relevant. A really strange thought. I guess this is why they appeal to such a small percentage of the playerbase? I didnt realize how deep the tanking meta goes for prot pallies... As I watch this video, its so much worse than I had imagined.

I'm not a fan of paladins, but I love the tanking playstyle of it. Incredible AoE, the only downside is the amount of consumables you need :C

I can't take Skarm seriouslly when he talks about paladin tanks. He's a good warrior tank but he should just stick to that. Watch his pally videos with a grain of salt if you must. But when he talks about paladins his goal is pretty much just to shit talk.

He's not really a great warrior tank either (sacrilege I know), just a max effort one.
I was doing double facepalms when he did that off-tank threat "competition" on target dummy with Duki and was using heroic strike.

I've actually raided with him and had a lot of buddies continue to raid with him and they never liked him. I guess that makes me bias but he crashed his own guild and caused a lot of drama.