I have a played a paladin tank from TBC to Cata.
Because I really wanted to know if they work in classic, I recently played one on a pserver. I had a very knowledgeable player tutoring me, so I think I know everything to do it as optimal as possible.
That said, lets look at what you miss compared to TBC+ and what is a urban legend.
- getting mana back on heals received
- a taunt mechanic
- a damage reduction cooldown
- the ability to range pull ( without engineering )
Can't ever fix issues 1-3, #4 can be worked around, for example with grenades or by using https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=10314/exorcism.
Being engineer is mandatory as paladin tank, I would even suggest it's mandatory for paladins of every specc because it fixes a couple of your class limits.
In addition, as with retardins, you need to have optimal enchants and consumes, to perform better and be less of a burden.
Now equipment isn't that bad as people make it out to be. You need a wild mix of stats: stamina, enough int for 4k mana unbuffed, spelldamage and mp5. I would not suggest going too much into defense, because you probably won't ever tank raid bosses, and it's fine to be critted & crushed by dungeon bosses. As any good tank will tell you, get bigger bags and use a variety of equipment tailored to the specific encounters.
That said, you ARE the slowest tank and need to drink every other pull and will burn alot of https://classic.wowhead.com/item=13444/ ... ana-potion and https://classic.wowhead.com/item=20520/dark-rune. And it really helps if your gear is one tier higher than the current content ( like t1 for 60ies dungeons) . Also don't forget to remind your group to never stun enemies, because if they don't hurt themselves attacking you, you make less threat.
So long story short: it works, but it takes some effort.
If you have more questions, feel free to ask!
This is the entire reason I would strongly suggest you don't get discouraged. Not to blame anyone, but in my opinion you received the wrong message.Gauze wrote: ↑3 months agoHowever, after reading through everything in this thread I do not think it will be a path I take as I will have limited play time (family) and will most likely aim for a more casual guild which I am guessing would make this even more difficult. While it does seem like it is technically possible, the playtime and commitment to overcome the potential handicap might be a bit too high to really make it work.
1. The environment that will most probably decline your wish to tank as a paladin will not be a casual environment, it will be at the progressive/hardcore end of the spectrum. If you want to play a protection pally in a casual guild, I'm sure you'll find a community that enables you to.
2. The handicaps (your words not mine) you face as a Paladin are not of a nature that you can overcome by adding playtime. As has been stated by others in this thread, paladins lack the right gear for tanking mana efficiently. Also, there is no way to compensate for a lack of a taunt ability. (This is what I gathered from others comments, I'm not a paladin specialist)
3. The whole viable vs. optimal discussion escalates extremely quickly; i'd like to provide my perspective.
In today's Classic World of WarCraft, we - the players - are omniscient.
Back in 2005, we, the majority of the player base - any statements made hereafter are based on subjective experience - were clueless. I was in a guild back then that was neither ambitious nor casual. We aspired to clear all content, but we had no ambition to be the best. Most players I remember would run with the tier sets, even tier 0 & organize their specs to compliment the set bonuses. There were no Best in Slot item lists. Some of us knew there was such a thing as thottbot, but we were young and simply wanted to play the game. Some people used consumables, some didn't, I remember farming the Blasted Lands buffs, while others were completely oblivious to the fact that these even existed. There was no organized world buffing & our raid was composed of whatever players were online at the time of the raid. And guess what, we cleared raids. We might have taken several raid evenings to do so, but we did. Week by week.
With today's optimized raid compositions, complete with predetermined specs and geared "by bis list", minmaxed for raid content, we can quite effortlessly start clearing Molten Core in a single evening a few days after everyone hit level 60. The private server community has absolutely pushed the limit of what is technically possible to achieve.Their efforts, theorycrafting and testing are much appreciated assets to the community & should be highly valued and respected.
That being said: yes, you can raid the same content without optimized comp, gear and spec. You will take a while longer & you will probably experience wipes, but the Molten Core as the first raid tier can most definitely be cleared with non-optimal builds as long as the unique challenges posed by certain bosses are understood can technically be overcome (starting with enough raid members that can decurse, for example). Organizing to go for a couple of world buffs and having your guild organize some basic consumables for the raid, you should be good to go. I dare predict that with some amount of preparation, combined with the quality of life improvements that are addons, early raiding will still be a breeze compared to the old days.
Careful, CAREFUL! there is a lot of negative misconceptions regarding paladin tanking from misinformed people even from paladin tanks themselves...Gauze wrote: ↑3 months agoIt is normally stated that Paladins can't tank and Warriors are king, but I am was curious if they can legitimately not tank and holds agro or if they are just less optimal than a warrior? With the knowledge of the classes, raids, easier to optimize your gear, etc. Is Paladin tanking still a dead end? While I mained priest in classic, I did quite a bit of Paladin tanking in BC and really enjoyed it.
Yes, I know warriors are better at tanking, but with the right gear and spec nowadays, is it possible?
1. Paladins can tank but are not optimal. (Paladins require more effort than warriors.)
2. Yes they can MT. Taunt it not a deal breaker because chances are as a paladin you are already in a serious guild therefore "Threat Leap Frogging" is not outside the realm of reality and more easily performed. (there are also bubble tricks, etc...)
I play as a shaman raid tank and when people say paladins can tank it bothers me to insane levels since paladins are a whole tier above shamans.
If you have any question feel free to @ me.
@Caperfin I am curious about "Threat Leap Frogging", haven't heard the term, would you be so nice as to explain the basic principle?
Do you want to play paladin tank for it's fantasy or for the playstyle? I personally find the spell rotations as pala tank quite boring, thus not worth the trouble for me.
@Rinkusan Basically, overthrowing suddenly the current tank's threat to gain aggro, through clever mechanics.
Let me explain, the current tank that has aggro on the boss can receive Blessing of Protection, Limited Invulnerability Potion, light of elune, etc... during this time the second tank in threat uses a combination of heavy dealing threat inducing things to gain aggro: trinket activate, oil of immolation, power infusion, racial activate, equip threat wep/shield, etc...
P.S. I've even had Judgement of the Crusader applied as a temporary debuff while I overthrew the current tank threat, the moment I overtook threat it simply was removed. Also, this "trick" is VERY EASY on the Alliance assuming you put in the effort.
This, this so much.Rinkusan wrote: ↑3 months ago1. The environment that will most probably decline your wish to tank as a paladin will not be a casual environment, it will be at the progressive/hardcore end of the spectrum. If you want to play a protection pally in a casual guild, I'm sure you'll find a community that enables you to.
Too many people speak in absolutes when they should speak in the context of hardcore/progressive only. You being a casual player in a casual raiding guild, or getting time to only pug 1 or 2 dungeons when you log on to play, you likely wont ever experience the resistance to pally tanking that you feel from certain commenters in this thread.
Also remember that the numbers for beta are differing from private servers by a lot. No one really knows how Pally tanking, or any spec will really clock in at. We have a good idea, but its difficult to say if the threat mechanics for palladins will be identical to private servers, or if it will be easier or harder (Compared to PS)
@Caperfin thank you, good sir.
Also many people are assuming paladin tanking is only accepted in casual guilds. THIS IS not the case. Paladin tanking (especially in a raiding context) requires massive amounts of effort and therefore the guild needs to reflect this mentality.
It has become very much the norm the last few years for Hardcore guild to adopt unconventional stuff just because it imposes a challenge to an otherwise trivialised games.
Does anyone here find it ironic that it requires a certain degree of min/maxing to effectively tank as a prot paladin, but choosing to play a prot pally is suboptimal right out of the gate? We have a casual guy here, playing a very small amount of time, looking to get into the game and tank a few dungeons, maybe participate in the odd raid and logout. He wants to know if prot pally is for him. It clearly isnt. Yet we're going to sit here and micro analyze ALL of the things he would need to do, outgear the content, farm consumes, find people to accept him, etc etc etc... Instead of just accepting the reality. This will not be suited for OP. This will not be suited for the majority of players.
You need to be someone who is willing to min/max. You will need to read about your spec and learn the nuances of your spec. You will need to actively downrank your spells and use a TON of consumes, even for the most trivial content. You will need engineering and you will need to play with competent players who use their threat meter and understand your weaknesses. ALLLLL of these stars need to align, just so this guy can do some dungeons. Lets be real. This wont be for him. This wont be for the majority of users. These meme specs are meme specs for a reason. This isnt to say they arent valuable in a certain context, but dont bullshit this poor guy.
Its SO crazy to me that most min/maxers roll their eyes at these sorts of specs (me included), yet the people vouching for them HAVE to min/max just to make their spec playable. Lol. Its so weird. I understand that being unique and playing something unconventional is attractive for some of you, but the effort vs the reward will not be worth it for most people.
I don't think anyone bullshitted him, it seems like everyone has actually done the opposite and pointed out everything that needs to be done to make it work. It's going to be a shit fight and a shit load of work, but if you really want to do it you can. I don't see much bullshit in this thread personally. It's obviously up to @Gauze to decide whether or not he is willing to do it (which is looks like he isn't based on his response), but I think all the facts have been laid out to help him make that decision. Some people are more willing to encourage others to try different things, but there has been a lot of warnings and caveats on the posts here to ensure people know that Prot Paly ain't for the faint-hearted.
Also, you may trigger @Caperfin with some of your comments
The guy said hes looking to play casually and has limited time to play. It quite clearly isnt the spec for him, yet people are continuing to try and sell it. Its just unfortunate.
Thats exactly right. Based on his response it quite clearly is not for him.
I'm totally okay with teasing the meme king if he shows up!!!!
@Stfuppercut maybe all the posters encouraging him are all secretly looking to play prot warriors and don't want all their BiS gear taken by some skirt wearing holy man??
I never considered that... That would be the meta right? Encourage people to play terrible specs so that there is less competition... Why have I been making pro hunter posts all this time? What am I doing!?!
BOOMKINS WILL BE NEEDED IN CLASSIC! CREATE BOOMKINS AND PROT PALLYS STAT! HORDE BIS RANGED DPS ARE ELE SHAMANS! - avoid hunters at all costs!
No jokes, if I pushed rank on horde, I would consider playing an ele shaman for PvP. They are nutty. In PvE, they may be in the bottom two specs overall? Complete trash in any raiding context.
Believe it or not, I've even seen some people try to min/max ele into a working spec. "Well if you just have your druids rotate their innervates and..."
We get into the same sillyness as any of these other conversations. Making the terrible spec work just requires you to min/max, outgear the content, use a TON of consumes and find a group of enablers who are willing to accommodate your suboptimal choices despite the fact that it will drag them down as well. It just isn't practical for the majority of the playerbase.
@Selexin @Stfuppercut lol you guys are actually triggering me. Going oom is a very outdated notion pushed by people putting no effort into making their class work. Ele shaman is the highest dps spec within the hybrids (assuming no flame buffet enh shamans or mightstone pallies are present). Idk if you guys have played on pserver but raids are done VERY fast and are put on farm. These "meme" specs are brought into raids faster than you think, simply because it imposes a challenge. Naturally, if the person under-performs they would get kicked which would be the EXACT same situation if they played a normal spec.
this was posted on the shaman discord and i it think explain it well
P.S. I am sorry to OP for diverging the convo.
I like Skarm but he really should give Protection a fair chance and put a bit more effort in. It shows that he's an expert at warriors but at best an average paladin.
Killerduki would be a better source but he's hard on the other side of the argument and tends to ignore how much additional stress he pulls on the group just to do what he does. The truth lies somewhere in the middle.
Short summary: Is it viable? Yes. Is it optimal? Hell no.
Can you tank a random elite quest? Sure thing, Specc doesn't matter here. Pop the aggrobuff, retri aura and do what you otherwise would do as dps.
Can you do 5 man dungeons? Yes you can, consecration or full prot will be required or at least reccomended.
Can you do raids? Specific encounters? Yes. Some encounters you can't without putting a large amount of strain on the rest of the raid.
The biggest issue a paladin tank has is he needs to understand threat way better then the average warrior and he's more suspectible to errors.
a) Mana issues:
Mana issues can be reduced with pots, downranking, seal of wisdom, flurry axe/ironfoe and those AQ crafted gloves that give mana on hit. If you're just tanking a 5 man, drink as the rest of the casters and you won't have any issues. You're not in a marathon.
If you don't use judgment on cooldown, only one max rank consecration/encounter and holy shield if available you can last an entire instance without drinking. Your aggro will however be a lot worse then a bear/warrior. So the group needs to focus the main target and may not open with pyroblast POM pyroblast.
b) AOE tanking: If Skarms tactic work for warriors on classic like they do in private servers then paladins will be weaker here.
c)Lack of taunt:
mostly only matters in raids due to multiple tank fights. In 5mans a BoP or HoJ will do the job. Longer cooldowns and different mechanic as taunt, so again, makes it harder then your average fury/arms warrior.
If you don't want to wait for a warrior for 5 mans, pick a paladin and a warlock and do the instance. Once a warrior is available you can always summon him in and switch to DPS/heal. I did this quite often back then but in about 50% of the cases I ended up finishing the instance.
I wonder what kind of stress i personally did toward you and did you ever played with me at first in order to claim such claims?!Killerduki would be a better source but he's hard on the other side of the argument and tends to ignore how much additional stress he pulls on the group just to do what he does. The truth lies somewhere in the middle.
First play with me before you conclude such silly things.
Exactly what i said on the post above, created this account now.
As for Skarm , i wonder how much people follow his false information about Protection Paladin , when he himself clearly did never ever Main Tank as Paladin 40 man Raid Boss. he doesn't even have any clue how certain fights work as Paladin Protection.
Most important about Skarm is that he obviously doesn't rely on Judgement of Wisdom with Seal of Righteousness as Threat+Mana Regeneration Tool , therefore he claim that Paladins have Mana Issues.
How silly is that.
I've watched your videos but probably never played with you.killerduki wrote: ↑2 months agoI wonder what kind of stress i personally did toward you and did you ever played with me at first in order to claim such claims?!Killerduki would be a better source but he's hard on the other side of the argument and tends to ignore how much additional stress he pulls on the group just to do what he does. The truth lies somewhere in the middle.
First play with me before you conclude such silly things.
First of all, let me thank you for showing other people that a paladin can tank raid encounters. I very much enjoyed those and I really think it's important to show that it can be done to give paladins a chance instead being laughed out of the room for even suggesting that they can get a mob to hit them and survive the experience.
What I don't like is the general "paladin is best tank" vibe or paladin as a main tank. Because except for some fairly niche situations a warrior will always be the better solution. So at least in my opinion gearing up a paladin to be a maintank will cause difficulties for a raidgroup that a warrior of equal skill and gear wouldn't have.
Back in classic I had for large part of the content the dubious honor of bringing BoSanctuary to the raid. When offtanks where unavailable or their damage was needed more then additional healing I often ended up offtanking. Usually keeping a trashmob busy while the MT tanked the first focus target and then spotted it off me as soon as the raid was done with the first. Shows that getting a tanking set as a paladin is not worthless by any means.
With the new meta changing to loads of fury warriors and paladin tanking being a big no-no I'm kinda scared that this part of the game will be gone outside of guild groups.
Did someone test if this works in the BETA? I'm quite sure that the spelladin crowd tried it and SoR seems to not procc most effects but to my knowledge they didn't try JoW.
3 months ago