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Psojed wrote:
1 week ago
While this may be true, don't forget that any given raid will also have Warriors capable of using Taunt. Unless you're some special raid leader who wants to build a raid with absolutely no Taunt present, this shouldn't pose any significant problem. I don't know about you guys, but if a Palatank cannot tank one or two specific bosses because Blizzard didn't give him a Taunt, it doesn't mean that they shouldn't tank any boss EVER, or that they cannot be good at tanking.
I was waiting for it and already wrote how things work , but due to TLDR seems you didn't seen it!

Four Horsemen :

Thats the only excuse everyone always bring.
Its hard for paladin but doable still.
1 of the horse you can tank with 2 tanks soaking 8 debuffs
While as paladin you will make threat , as warrior you will just taunt until 8th mark without threat making.
Each mark reduce tank threat when it hit
Which mean at the end when 8th mark hit the warr, he dont taunt and pala will have the aggro.
The horse with holy damage is the one you can do as pala and 1 tank
Its hardest fight , but still doable for pala tank

The debuffs which 4hm lands to the Tank , reduces his Aggro down by 25% (unless pservers bug) .
Which mean when Warrior Taunt , he doesn't do much threats and at the last debuff , he doesn't do any threats and he is going to be 2nd on Aggro when debuff land, that how Automatically Paladin is going to take over the Horse.


You can survive up to 8 Debuffs, Well as i said , it is hardest fight for Paladin Tank and most Challenging, but not impossible. If you rotate with 8 debuffs, it is going to have time to use only 2 tanks for 1 Horse (easiest is top right) . While rest of 6 tanks rotate thru the other 3 horses ignoring the horse you tank. When other Tanks kill 1 of the Horses, they simply assist you and job done.

Or repeating as better explanation :

Let me Begin:

The most easiest of them is either the Shadow (top left) or Holy (top right) Horse .

You as a Paladin , using BiS Gear, all consumes and world Buffs , can manage to grow and have up to 14k HP or more.

Which mean , you are now able to tank (with some efforts) and handle 8 Debuffs from the horse.

How the Rotation and strategy work , together with 1 Tank (it will be hard for Healers, but doable) Warrior or Druid , who is able to Taunt, you can 2 Tank one of these 2 horses, since their normal damage is weak , but debuffs are only strong dmg taken.

First you as Paladin go there and Tank up to 6 debuffs (each of them reduce threats) and burn the whole mana trying to build massive amount of threats (exorcism ftw).

Once you get 6 debuffs, the Warrior runs and Taunt it from you (same rule by debuffs apply to him) , while he make extra tiny threats in order to take and keep the target from you , he should not do threats,but enough to keep the horse on him without making more than 110% threats compare to Paladin (control over threats).

Once the Warrior goes up to 7 Debuffs (exact time when the Paladin debuffs are about to gone) he uses Last Stand or Shield Wall , so he can manage to survive the 8th without causing problem to healer, for the last debuff he simply not making threats.

Once the last debuff hit the Warrior , thanks to aggro reducing by each mark , the Warrior is going to loose his threats and the Horse will automatically run back to the previous Tank (Paladin) who will be taking over from the Warrior with Exorcism and Judgement.

The Paladin then , can manage to tank up to 8 Debuffs with all cd's and Priest Bubble on him in order to Absorb and Survive the last one.

And vise versa with Warrior taking over at the end.

(challenging,but doable,never impossible)

Until the second time Paladin take over up to 8 debuffs (building up massive threats), the group already had like nearly 3 minutes spend, by that time , they should already killed one of the horses , which mean , you have extra tanks that are going to make it easy and take over this Horse too for lesser debuffs.

The Healers threats in this case it will never be any problem , since they constantly loose their threats by swapping and get the first 4 debuffs .

The only Place , this might not work is Private Servers , if they don't have this properly scripted.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3 Drakes and particulary Firemaw :

Have Warrior Taunting you when Drake is about to use his Ability called (Wing Buffed) , let the Warrior or Druid (whoever is going to Taunt you) sit on the right side of the Boss (or left , opposite from you). Once he Taunt and then Boss use his Ability "Wing Buffed" , he is going to loose threat and you will remain with your original threat , then Boss will return back to you automatically.

- Wing Buffet = reduce threat by 25% toward the Main Target (In Pservers this is bugged and it wipes more than 50% or full amount of threat) . (he does that Ability each

Make sure Offtank taunt you 10 Seconds before "Wing Buffed" Ability from Boss is used in case he resist, so he will have a chance to Mocking Bow or re use 2nd time Taunt .

That mean you only need Fire Resistance Gear , so you can resist 75% of his Debuffs, which makes you Tank/Spank that Boss without risk of loosing Aggro (if Offtanks Taunt you in time correctly) .

Fight is simple , have Offtank taunting you for Wing Buffeds and enjoy being Main Tank.

This same rule apply for all 3 drakes , only difference between 1/2 and 3rd Drake is that at 1/2 you need Fire Resistance Gear while at 3rd Drake you need Shadow Resistance Gear and Mortal Strike on Boss (welcome) .

Use DBM Addon , it shows you timing for Wing Buffet.

https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Battleg ... did=338277
Revision as of 20:19, November 23, 2006

Quoting:

Satura and her adds will occasionally reset aggro for several seconds and start chasing random people for a duration of 5 seconds. After those 5 seconds they will return to the highest aggro target, so as long as you don't pull aggro off of the tank they will go back to him.

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Holyfrog wrote:
1 week ago
As for the sunken temple video. The target is 1 level higher, and the Paladins does a total of SIX swings. This doesnt prove anything. With only 1 level difference and a total of 6 attacks, the probability of seeing a partial resist would be extremely low. Your post too honestly too long to address, but this is exactly what I was trying to say with my previous post. You simply have no understanding of how evidence works, so debating with you is entirely pointless.
Sure :

Raids = no Partial Resist , Scholomance = no Partial Resist.

Even tho it's hard to see, using slow mode 0.25 from the HTML by Youtube , you can see every bit of the Video!

Even 1 lvl higher apply to the rule of = Partial Resist!

Even with 6 swings and 1 lvl higher , same rule <24 Resistance apply = which mean you will ANYWAY Resist!

Beta doesn't mean it can't be bugged, but since all sources says and proves it should never resist then 0 resistance suppose to be!

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Holyfrog wrote:
1 week ago
I'm not even going to bother with this. If you cannot see why having the entire tank group get knocked away on Ragnaros, or having the Paladin get blown up 15 seconds into the Vael fight is bad then me explaining it is not going to change your view here. My point was that using a Paladin tank bring additional RNG into the raid that you would not have had to deal with using another tank class.
And your Ignorance that Hamer of Ragnaros have 75% chance to get resisted by Fire Resistance ?!

Which ALL Tanks are going to use it anyway!
Holyfrog wrote:
1 week ago
or having the Paladin get blown up 15 seconds into the Vael fight is bad then me explaining it is not going to change your view here.
You again Ignore the Part that Vaelstrasz is anyway going to use Blazing on the Main Tank regardless if it's Warrior or Paladin!

https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Vaelast ... did=347980
Revision as of 01:35, November 30, 2006

Burning Adrenaline

Vael only casts Burning Adrenaline in two scenarios: He will cast it on random mana users thruought the fight and he will cast it on the current tank every 45 seconds. 1 tank killed every 45 seconds for 3 minutes --> 3 / 0.75 = 4 tanks. When the MT is afflicted, healers must be ready to transition to the next tank while keeping the old one up at the same time untill the debuff kills him.

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killerduki wrote:
1 week ago
Psojed wrote:
1 week ago
Source?
JoWisdom is triggering from any melee hit and any spell hit from the whole raid, so not triggering from seal hits sounds like a bug. But you're the first person who says that it doesn't trigger from it. AFAIK Theloras and other spelladins tested SoR a lot, and I believe the only thing that wasn't triggering from SoR was Shadow Oil.
http://paladin-guide.blogspot.com/2005/ ... ments.html

SATURDAY, DECEMBER 17, 2005

Evidence that SoR suppose to proc Judges
This is not proof. The post you link is from 2005, which is before the Paladin overhaul in patch 1.9 that dramatically changed the behaviour of almost every Paladin mechanic. SoR included. There's also no actual proof on this thread other than the poster stating it works. No ingame screenshot or anything of the sort.
It's perfectly possible the Seals ability to proc JoW was removed entirely in patch 1.9 and without some actual evidence from post 1.9 we will never know.

There's a certain irony here. You expect an absurd standard of evidence for anything regarding Warrior, but you are willing to consider any random forum thread evidence in favor of Paladins. You dont get to do that. If you wont adhere to your own standard of evidence, then I will simply dismiss your claims outright.



Anyway. I launched the repack and attempted to test mana longevity with a Paladin wearing full endgame best in slot as the mana argument keeps getting brought up over and over.

I attempted to simulate a raid scenario as closely as I could, using every standard raid buff that increase either mana regen, or the total Mana pool of the Paladin. I simulated Blessing of Kings with Elune's Blessing (10% stats) and gave myself Blessing of Wisdom.
To simulate SoR not proccing JoW, I auto attacked without a Seal, and recast Seal of Wisdom and judged it on cooldown as the mana cost is the same on both SoR and SoW.

By using both Major Mana and Demonic Rune, I lasted exactly 1min 20 seconds before I was completely out of mana. The majority of bosses outside of MC will last a lot longer than this. By dropping Consecration entirely from the rotation I made mana last up to a full 4 minutes. But this also means a dramatic drop in TPS.

Tests were also done with a 1.5 speed Flurry Axe, which produce relatively poor threat for higher mana regen.



As we can see, Paladins will truly struggle to maintain a high threat rotation This problem will be even worse once you start to include Exorcism into your rotation. The core problem like I explained before is that all thread generating abilities are tied to 8-10 second cooldowns. Your threat simply does not scale with gear the same way a Warrior does, as no level of gear will let you use your abilities more frequently where a Warrior get to do that by simply wearing more DPS gear to deal more damage, take more damage and generate more rage.

   Xaldron Linguine Frosted Roadblock Tewi
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killerduki wrote:
1 week ago
Holyfrog wrote:
1 week ago
As for the sunken temple video. The target is 1 level higher, and the Paladins does a total of SIX swings. This doesnt prove anything. With only 1 level difference and a total of 6 attacks, the probability of seeing a partial resist would be extremely low. Your post too honestly too long to address, but this is exactly what I was trying to say with my previous post. You simply have no understanding of how evidence works, so debating with you is entirely pointless.
Sure :

Raids = no Partial Resist , Scholomance = no Partial Resist.

Even tho it's hard to see, using slow mode 0.25 from the HTML by Youtube , you can see every bit of the Video!

Even 1 lvl higher apply to the rule of = Partial Resist!

Even with 6 swings and 1 lvl higher , same rule <24 Resistance apply = which mean you will ANYWAY Resist!

Beta doesn't mean it can't be bugged, but since all sources says and proves it should never resist then 0 resistance suppose to be!
Thank you for the video. The part with the core hounds seem to suggest Holy Damage can partially resist. I see a lot of 51-52 damage which I assume is the full damage of Consecration. Additionally there's some numbers showing 35 which would be Blessing of Sanctuary, 135 which would be Holy Shield.

But, in addition here there's some numbers in the range of 46 damage, which is 90% of 51 damage. This is directly in line with what you would expect to see from a Consecration partially resisting.
There's also some damage numbers which display 39 damage. This is 75% of 52 damage. Again in line with what we would expect from partial resists.

Image

I am open to alternative explanations as to what these numbers could be. They are not from SoR, because SoR only ever has a damage difference of 1 between the highest and lowest attack. Unless ofcourse it is SoR, but it's getting partial resists.

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Holyfrog wrote:
1 week ago
killerduki wrote:
1 week ago
Psojed wrote:
1 week ago
Source?
JoWisdom is triggering from any melee hit and any spell hit from the whole raid, so not triggering from seal hits sounds like a bug. But you're the first person who says that it doesn't trigger from it. AFAIK Theloras and other spelladins tested SoR a lot, and I believe the only thing that wasn't triggering from SoR was Shadow Oil.
http://paladin-guide.blogspot.com/2005/ ... ments.html

SATURDAY, DECEMBER 17, 2005

Evidence that SoR suppose to proc Judges
This is not proof. The post you link is from 2005, which is before the Paladin overhaul in patch 1.9 that dramatically changed the behaviour of almost every Paladin mechanic. SoR included. There's also no actual proof on this thread other than the poster stating it works. No ingame screenshot or anything of the sort.
It's perfectly possible the Seals ability to proc JoW was removed entirely in patch 1.9 and without some actual evidence from post 1.9 we will never know.

There's a certain irony here. You expect an absurd standard of evidence for anything regarding Warrior, but you are willing to consider any random forum thread evidence in favor of Paladins. You dont get to do that. If you wont adhere to your own standard of evidence, then I will simply dismiss your claims outright.



Anyway. I launched the repack and attempted to test mana longevity with a Paladin wearing full endgame best in slot as the mana argument keeps getting brought up over and over.

I attempted to simulate a raid scenario as closely as I could, using every standard raid buff that increase either mana regen, or the total Mana pool of the Paladin. I simulated Blessing of Kings with Elune's Blessing (10% stats) and gave myself Blessing of Wisdom.
To simulate SoR not proccing JoW, I auto attacked without a Seal, and recast Seal of Wisdom and judged it on cooldown as the mana cost is the same on both SoR and SoW.

By using both Major Mana and Demonic Rune, I lasted exactly 1min 20 seconds before I was completely out of mana. The majority of bosses outside of MC will last a lot longer than this. By dropping Consecration entirely from the rotation I made mana last up to a full 4 minutes. But this also means a dramatic drop in TPS.

Tests were also done with a 1.5 speed Flurry Axe, which produce relatively poor threat for higher mana regen.



As we can see, Paladins will truly struggle to maintain a high threat rotation This problem will be even worse once you start to include Exorcism into your rotation. The core problem like I explained before is that all thread generating abilities are tied to 8-10 second cooldowns. Your threat simply does not scale with gear the same way a Warrior does, as no level of gear will let you use your abilities more frequently where a Warrior get to do that by simply wearing more DPS gear to deal more damage, take more damage and generate more rage.

*applause*

May I add;
1) The usage of BoW makes the paladin unable to use BoS.
2) The usage of seal- and judgement of wisdom makes the paladin unable to use Seal- and judgement of Righteousness.

Both limiting the paladin's all ready limitid TPS to a minimum. Unless of course, like in Killerduki's "evidence", you wear full AQ40 + thunderfury gear in MC. *sigh*

   Linguine killerduki
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Holyfrog wrote:
1 week ago
Btw, a 100% heal wont help you live through Maexxna web wrap making the final web wrap entirely RNG compared to simply using Shield Wall and running no risk of the tank dying. Chromaggus getting frenzied while the Hunter is stunned from bronze affilction is also a really good time for Shield Wall, or multiple other scenarios where incoming damage is temporarily high or the healers are not able to heal for whatever reason such as being out of range on Ouro, or someone dying at a bad time or during enrage of Huhuran. Shield Wall is simply much much better than anything a Paladin can bring as it can almost entirely negate something going wrong by providing plenty time for the raid to recover. Lay on Hands will heal you up once, then you keep taking full damage.
That's why Improved Lay on Hand is better option than Shield Wall , while Improved Lay on Hand for those fights is extremely efficient and last 2 minutes , Shield Wall last few seconds wont guarantee the Bosses are dying for the duration , especially in most of the fights you mention.

(Not talking about already cleared Raid running around with T3 Gear and killing Bosses in few seconds where in such Gear quality you don't really need Def CD's to survive)

Example is Chromaggus , not often people killing it fast enough during Progression time , so Warrior Tank have big chance to loose Shield Wall and die there .

Maexxna during Enrage will ALWAYS Web Wrap , after and before Web Wrap Warrior is often without Shield Wall causing Stress and risk of dying, Paladin in this Scenario will have Improved LoH for the last 2 Minutes and handle this action extremely easy!

Ouro is even better for Paladin , especially Imp LoH that last for 2 minutes unlike few seconds of Shield Wall that have big chance to go away , not only that , you wont have enough Paladin Healers to handle ALL Tanks there with Imp LoH , so Prot Paladin speccing into Imp LoH is again extremely efficient!

Huhuran is different story , but using Tank Rotation and Tank Swapping , Remove ALL Debuffs before Enrage using Bubble and instant /macro Remove , is going to cause this Boss do extremely low dmg, especially if you use Nature Resistance Gear, the Boss is piss easy so needing for Def CD is extremely low in that scenario.
Warrior in that case don't have the pleasure of using Bubble to remove the Debuffs by Huhuran , so if Boss isn't killed during Shield Wall = Raid Wipe.

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killerduki wrote:
1 week ago
That's why Improved Lay on Hand is better option than Shield Wall , while Improved Lay on Hand for those fights is extremely efficient and last 2 minutes , Shield Wall last few seconds wont guarantee the Bosses are dying for the duration , especially in most of the fights you mention.
Just have the Holy Paladin cast Imp. Lay on Hands before the fight and drink up again. Boom. Warrior also has 30% more armor.
killerduki wrote:
1 week ago
you wont have enough Paladin Healers to handle ALL Tanks there with Imp LoH , so Prot Paladin speccing into Imp LoH is again extremely efficient!
Literally all you need to do is bring one more Holy Paladin to negate needing a Prot Pally's LoH. Either way, you're bringing a Paladin.

   Xaldron Holyfrog Stfuppercut
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Holyfrog wrote:
1 week ago
I'm not even going to bother with this. If you cannot see why having the entire tank group get knocked away on Ragnaros, or having the Paladin get blown up 15 seconds into the Vael fight is bad then me explaining it is not going to change your view here. My point was that using a Paladin tank bring additional RNG into the raid that you would not have had to deal with using another tank class.
And your Ignorance that Hamer of Ragnaros have 75% chance to get resisted by Fire Resistance ?!
I am not though. Warriors have 0% chance to get hit by Hammer of Ragnaros. Paladins can get hit, but then have a 75% chance to resist.
Warriors are objectively better for this fight as they entirely remove the RNG element of the knockback.

Holyfrog wrote:
1 week ago
or having the Paladin get blown up 15 seconds into the Vael fight is bad then me explaining it is not going to change your view here.
You again Ignore the Part that Vaelstrasz is anyway going to use Blazing on the Main Tank regardless if it's Warrior or Paladin!

https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Vaelast ... did=347980
Revision as of 01:35, November 30, 2006

Burning Adrenaline

Vael only casts Burning Adrenaline in two scenarios: He will cast it on random mana users thruought the fight and he will cast it on the current tank every 45 seconds. 1 tank killed every 45 seconds for 3 minutes --> 3 / 0.75 = 4 tanks. When the MT is afflicted, healers must be ready to transition to the next tank while keeping the old one up at the same time untill the debuff kills him.
Yes, the tank will always get Burning Adrenaline 45 seconds into the fight. This means with a Warrior or Druid tank you know exactly when the transition is going to happen. A Paladin might get Burning Adrenaline at any random time as they have a Mana bar.

Again, Paladins are objectively worse than Warriors for this fight. Their threat also does not scale with infinite mana the same way a Warrior or Druid scale with infinite rage as well as introducing additional RNG into the fight.

You are being incredibly dishonest if you are going to sit and pretend these are not real concerns.

   Linguine Xaldron Stfuppercut Roadblock Tewi
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killerduki wrote:
1 week ago

That's why Improved Lay on Hand is better option than Shield Wall , while Improved Lay on Hand for those fights is extremely efficient and last 2 minutes , Shield Wall last few seconds wont guarantee the Bosses are dying for the duration , especially in most of the fights you mention.
A Warrior can also get Lay on Hands. You actually never want to cast this as a Paladin tank even if you have the talent, as it drains all your mana and leaves you to produce zero threat. Having Imp Lay on Hands as a Paladin tank also mean you give up 2% Parry, which would increase both your mitigation and threat (due to Parry haste)
Example is Chromaggus , not often people killing it fast enough during Progression time , so Warrior Tank have big chance to loose Shield Wall and die there .
Maexxna during Enrage will ALWAYS Web Wrap , after and before Web Wrap Warrior is often without Shield Wall causing Stress and risk of dying, Paladin in this Scenario will have Improved LoH for the last 2 Minutes and handle this action extremely easy!
Can you please stop using these nonsensical absurd troll arguments?

Having Shield Wall AND Lay on Hands is objectively better than only having Lay on Hands.

   Linguine Xaldron Stfuppercut
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I’m learning more about paladins from this thread alone than years of retail.

Quite fascinating stuff if you remove some of the weird parts of the thread. :biggrin:

   killerduki Rinkusan
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Holyfrog wrote:
1 week ago
killerduki wrote:
1 week ago
Psojed wrote:
1 week ago
Source?
JoWisdom is triggering from any melee hit and any spell hit from the whole raid, so not triggering from seal hits sounds like a bug. But you're the first person who says that it doesn't trigger from it. AFAIK Theloras and other spelladins tested SoR a lot, and I believe the only thing that wasn't triggering from SoR was Shadow Oil.
http://paladin-guide.blogspot.com/2005/ ... ments.html

SATURDAY, DECEMBER 17, 2005

Evidence that SoR suppose to proc Judges
This is not proof. The post you link is from 2005, which is before the Paladin overhaul in patch 1.9 that dramatically changed the behaviour of almost every Paladin mechanic. SoR included. There's also no actual proof on this thread other than the poster stating it works. No ingame screenshot or anything of the sort.
It's perfectly possible the Seals ability to proc JoW was removed entirely in patch 1.9 and without some actual evidence from post 1.9 we will never know.

There's a certain irony here. You expect an absurd standard of evidence for anything regarding Warrior, but you are willing to consider any random forum thread evidence in favor of Paladins. You dont get to do that. If you wont adhere to your own standard of evidence, then I will simply dismiss your claims outright.



Anyway. I launched the repack and attempted to test mana longevity with a Paladin wearing full endgame best in slot as the mana argument keeps getting brought up over and over.

I attempted to simulate a raid scenario as closely as I could, using every standard raid buff that increase either mana regen, or the total Mana pool of the Paladin. I simulated Blessing of Kings with Elune's Blessing (10% stats) and gave myself Blessing of Wisdom.
To simulate SoR not proccing JoW, I auto attacked without a Seal, and recast Seal of Wisdom and judged it on cooldown as the mana cost is the same on both SoR and SoW.

By using both Major Mana and Demonic Rune, I lasted exactly 1min 20 seconds before I was completely out of mana. The majority of bosses outside of MC will last a lot longer than this. By dropping Consecration entirely from the rotation I made mana last up to a full 4 minutes. But this also means a dramatic drop in TPS.

Tests were also done with a 1.5 speed Flurry Axe, which produce relatively poor threat for higher mana regen.



As we can see, Paladins will truly struggle to maintain a high threat rotation This problem will be even worse once you start to include Exorcism into your rotation. The core problem like I explained before is that all thread generating abilities are tied to 8-10 second cooldowns. Your threat simply does not scale with gear the same way a Warrior does, as no level of gear will let you use your abilities more frequently where a Warrior get to do that by simply wearing more DPS gear to deal more damage, take more damage and generate more rage.
Why the hell am i going to spam Consecration which bad threat against Single Target?! ...

Not only that , Pots/Runes/Innervates/Power Infusions yada yada yada ... Ignorance is Bliss.

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Holyfrog wrote:
1 week ago
killerduki wrote:
1 week ago
Holyfrog wrote:
1 week ago
As for the sunken temple video. The target is 1 level higher, and the Paladins does a total of SIX swings. This doesnt prove anything. With only 1 level difference and a total of 6 attacks, the probability of seeing a partial resist would be extremely low. Your post too honestly too long to address, but this is exactly what I was trying to say with my previous post. You simply have no understanding of how evidence works, so debating with you is entirely pointless.
Sure :

Raids = no Partial Resist , Scholomance = no Partial Resist.

Even tho it's hard to see, using slow mode 0.25 from the HTML by Youtube , you can see every bit of the Video!

Even 1 lvl higher apply to the rule of = Partial Resist!

Even with 6 swings and 1 lvl higher , same rule <24 Resistance apply = which mean you will ANYWAY Resist!

Beta doesn't mean it can't be bugged, but since all sources says and proves it should never resist then 0 resistance suppose to be!
Thank you for the video. The part with the core hounds seem to suggest Holy Damage can partially resist. I see a lot of 51-52 damage which I assume is the full damage of Consecration. Additionally there's some numbers showing 35 which would be Blessing of Sanctuary, 135 which would be Holy Shield.

But, in addition here there's some numbers in the range of 46 damage, which is 90% of 51 damage. This is directly in line with what you would expect to see from a Consecration partially resisting.
There's also some damage numbers which display 39 damage. This is 75% of 52 damage. Again in line with what we would expect from partial resists.

Image

I am open to alternative explanations as to what these numbers could be. They are not from SoR, because SoR only ever has a damage difference of 1 between the highest and lowest attack. Unless ofcourse it is SoR, but it's getting partial resists.
Consecration work the same even against PVP and even in Low lvl targets , It work same as SoR (1 dmg up/down) each swing/tick..

That is NOT Partial Resist, it is how such Ability behave ! Has nothing with Partial resists at all!

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Holyfrog wrote:
1 week ago
killerduki wrote:
1 week ago
Holyfrog wrote:
1 week ago
As for the sunken temple video. The target is 1 level higher, and the Paladins does a total of SIX swings. This doesnt prove anything. With only 1 level difference and a total of 6 attacks, the probability of seeing a partial resist would be extremely low. Your post too honestly too long to address, but this is exactly what I was trying to say with my previous post. You simply have no understanding of how evidence works, so debating with you is entirely pointless.
Sure :

Raids = no Partial Resist , Scholomance = no Partial Resist.

Even tho it's hard to see, using slow mode 0.25 from the HTML by Youtube , you can see every bit of the Video!

Even 1 lvl higher apply to the rule of = Partial Resist!

Even with 6 swings and 1 lvl higher , same rule <24 Resistance apply = which mean you will ANYWAY Resist!

Beta doesn't mean it can't be bugged, but since all sources says and proves it should never resist then 0 resistance suppose to be!
Thank you for the video. The part with the core hounds seem to suggest Holy Damage can partially resist. I see a lot of 51-52 damage which I assume is the full damage of Consecration. Additionally there's some numbers showing 35 which would be Blessing of Sanctuary, 135 which would be Holy Shield.

But, in addition here there's some numbers in the range of 46 damage, which is 90% of 51 damage. This is directly in line with what you would expect to see from a Consecration partially resisting.
There's also some damage numbers which display 39 damage. This is 75% of 52 damage. Again in line with what we would expect from partial resists.

Image

I am open to alternative explanations as to what these numbers could be. They are not from SoR, because SoR only ever has a damage difference of 1 between the highest and lowest attack. Unless ofcourse it is SoR, but it's getting partial resists.
But, in addition here there's some numbers in the range of 46 damage, which is 90% of 51 damage. This is directly in line with what you would expect to see from a Consecration partially resisting.
46 Damage is from Seal of Righteousness , while 51-52 is from Consecration.

You can very easy see his SoR Active or you tend to ignore it?!

https://classicdb.ch/?spell=20293

Fills the Paladin with holy spirit for 30 sec, granting each melee attack an additional 20.528735632184 to 71.44 Holy damage. Slower weapons cause more Holy damage per swing. Only one Seal can be active on the Paladin at any one time.

Depend on Weapon Speed , SP etc etc.

The 46 Number you see it due to "Ignite Icon Buff" he have on him , once that Buff was gone , his dmg went down to 39 , which mean he has something that increased his SoR DMG!

Just look careful at it = 1st screenshot is with Ignite buff (how i call that icon since i don't know what is) , 2nd screenshot is without ignite buff.

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Holyfrog wrote:
1 week ago
Holyfrog wrote:
1 week ago
I'm not even going to bother with this. If you cannot see why having the entire tank group get knocked away on Ragnaros, or having the Paladin get blown up 15 seconds into the Vael fight is bad then me explaining it is not going to change your view here. My point was that using a Paladin tank bring additional RNG into the raid that you would not have had to deal with using another tank class.
And your Ignorance that Hamer of Ragnaros have 75% chance to get resisted by Fire Resistance ?!
I am not though. Warriors have 0% chance to get hit by Hammer of Ragnaros. Paladins can get hit, but then have a 75% chance to resist.
Warriors are objectively better for this fight as they entirely remove the RNG element of the knockback.

Holyfrog wrote:
1 week ago
or having the Paladin get blown up 15 seconds into the Vael fight is bad then me explaining it is not going to change your view here.
You again Ignore the Part that Vaelstrasz is anyway going to use Blazing on the Main Tank regardless if it's Warrior or Paladin!

https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Vaelast ... did=347980
Revision as of 01:35, November 30, 2006

Burning Adrenaline

Vael only casts Burning Adrenaline in two scenarios: He will cast it on random mana users thruought the fight and he will cast it on the current tank every 45 seconds. 1 tank killed every 45 seconds for 3 minutes --> 3 / 0.75 = 4 tanks. When the MT is afflicted, healers must be ready to transition to the next tank while keeping the old one up at the same time untill the debuff kills him.
Yes, the tank will always get Burning Adrenaline 45 seconds into the fight. This means with a Warrior or Druid tank you know exactly when the transition is going to happen. A Paladin might get Burning Adrenaline at any random time as they have a Mana bar.

Again, Paladins are objectively worse than Warriors for this fight. Their threat also does not scale with infinite mana the same way a Warrior or Druid scale with infinite rage as well as introducing additional RNG into the fight.

You are being incredibly dishonest if you are going to sit and pretend these are not real concerns.
I am not though. Warriors have 0% chance to get hit by Hammer of Ragnaros. Paladins can get hit, but then have a 75% chance to resist.
Warriors are objectively better for this fight as they entirely remove the RNG element of the knockback.
What the hell are you talking about ....
Do you even have any clue how this shit work or you just talk out of your ass!?

Let me educate YOU!

https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Ragnaros?oldid=347727
Revision as of 21:30, November 29, 2006

Hammer of Ragnaros - Ranged Knockback and Damage
20–30s cooldown. "By fire be purged!" This attack targets a random player and knocks back all players (excluding the target) within ~20 yards. They are knocked back from the impact point which is at the foot of the target.

And who are "THEM" standing next to tank?! Nobody !

Image
Again, Paladins are objectively worse than Warriors for this fight. Their threat also does not scale with infinite mana the same way a Warrior or Druid scale with infinite rage as well as introducing additional RNG into the fight.
ROFL , Paladins having Infinite Mana not only would bring Paladin Tank to Spam ALL Abilities on CD, will also include Hamers on CD spamming etc and bringing 0 problems to the "Consumes using" , Especially if you do use the Tier 2 set to increase the threat , hence Tier 2 Set do offer Fire Resistance to make this fight easier and that Vael itself doesn't do some problem with Physical dmg but with Fire Dmg.

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Holyfrog wrote:
1 week ago
killerduki wrote:
1 week ago

That's why Improved Lay on Hand is better option than Shield Wall , while Improved Lay on Hand for those fights is extremely efficient and last 2 minutes , Shield Wall last few seconds wont guarantee the Bosses are dying for the duration , especially in most of the fights you mention.
A Warrior can also get Lay on Hands. You actually never want to cast this as a Paladin tank even if you have the talent, as it drains all your mana and leaves you to produce zero threat. Having Imp Lay on Hands as a Paladin tank also mean you give up 2% Parry, which would increase both your mitigation and threat (due to Parry haste)
Example is Chromaggus , not often people killing it fast enough during Progression time , so Warrior Tank have big chance to loose Shield Wall and die there .
Maexxna during Enrage will ALWAYS Web Wrap , after and before Web Wrap Warrior is often without Shield Wall causing Stress and risk of dying, Paladin in this Scenario will have Improved LoH for the last 2 Minutes and handle this action extremely easy!
Can you please stop using these nonsensical absurd troll arguments?

Having Shield Wall AND Lay on Hands is objectively better than only having Lay on Hands.
Can you please stop using these nonsensical absurd troll arguments?

Having Shield Wall AND Lay on Hands is objectively better than only having Lay on Hands.
Sure Shield Wall+LoH will be better, but only for few seconds , meanwhile :

Having 4 Warrior Tanks and only 1 who can do Shield Wall (chromaggus is taunt immune) while other 3 "Selfish" Shield Wall Tanks aren't providing nothing there, Using 3 Paladin Tanks with Imp LoH and 1 Warrior Tank is more beneficial by far, since you get extra (Non selfish) 6 Minutes extremely good o shit Buff! Which mean Boss is going to be killed with Tank receiving extremely low dmg for the whole duration , making it easier for everyone!

Or in other scenario 3 Holy Paladins in group and 4 Warrior Tanks = 6 minutes Imp LoH with few seconds Shield Wall only, while 3 Holy paladins 1 MT Paladin and 3 Warr Tanks = 8 minutes Imp LoH without having a need for Shield Wall at all!

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killerduki wrote:
1 week ago
46 Damage is from Seal of Righteousness , while 51-52 is from Consecration.

You can very easy see his SoR Active or you tend to ignore it?!
The base damage of SoR at 60 is 18.675 multiplied by weapon speed, multiplied by 0.85 for onehand and 1.2 for 2h.

Because Invisusira is using a 2.0 speed Quel'Serrar, the base damage would be (18.675 * 2) * 0.85 = 31.7 damage. This gets further increased by onehanded specialization and improved Seal of Righteousness for a total of 39-40 damage per hit.

By looking at the damage dealt by Consecration and Holy Shield we can further calculate that Invisusira is using roughly 80-90 Spellpower on gear which directly translates into a 8-9 damage increase on SoR for a total damage of 48.

If we assume the number 46 is Seal of Righteousness, that would mean Invisusira does not have One-Handed Weapon Specialization. With only Improved Seal of Righteousness we would expect to see 45.51 damage which gets rounded up to 46.

So yes, you are actually correct. This number can be explained by Seal of Righteousness. However, the other number, 39. Cannot be explained by Seal of Righteousness.
Just look careful at it = 1st screenshot is with Ignite buff (how i call that icon since i don't know what is) , 2nd screenshot is without ignite buff.
This so called "Ignite" buff is Sanctuary, from Quel'Serrar. The proc provides you with 300 armor and some defense. It has no impact on the damage you deal. You simply cannot explain both these numbers with SoR damage alone. This leads me to believe partial resist is very much a thing.

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killerduki wrote:
1 week ago
Hammer of Ragnaros - Ranged Knockback and Damage
20–30s cooldown. "By fire be purged!" This attack targets a random player and knocks back all players (excluding the target) within ~20 yards. They are knocked back from the impact point which is at the foot of the target.

And who are "THEM" standing next to tank?! Nobody !
Offtanks.

You want 2, preferrably 3 tanks for Ragnaros. Healers need to be in range, which means the area these offtanks stand on will be very small. Because its not possible to guarantee you do not resist the melee range knockback, there will be times when you as a Paladin tank gets knocked back, and you need to run back into range with the boss.

During this run-in it's unavoidable that you need to run past the healers, and past the other two tanks. If you were to get a Hammer of Ragnaros right as this occured, and you happen to not resist said Hammer of Ragnaros you will end up knocking back half the tank healers, or worse, both other offtanks, leaving your raid with only one tank in melee range. If you then were to die, or eat another knockback, this likely means a wipe as Ragnaros now starts oneshotting casters one by one until some tank can get back into melee range.

Ragnaros very much can be done as a Paladin tank. But please do not say its easier or just as easy with a Paladin tank because that is simply flat out false. Having more mana users near the melee or tanks means your raid is subjected to more RNG than if you were to use a Warrior or Druid.

I am not going to bother addressing this dumb Shield Wall argument any further btw, so please stop posting about it.
All I am going to say about it is that a Warrior tank will ALWAYS have Lay on Hands when needed in addition to Shield Wall. A Paladin cannot ever have both.
I also have no idea why you think using Shield Wall is selfish. It's a cooldown that is there for you to use. You absolutely want to use it if you need it. Besides, if you need multiple Shield Walls you can just have another warrior Taunt (Hey, remember this little spell?) and then use another Shield Wall.

Obviously this does not work on every boss, but works on some. If you get Time Lapse on Chromaggus f.ex you can just have the off-tank use Shield Wall as well. There's nothing selfish about Shield Wall. In an case, it's dumb fucking argument, because Lay on Hands can be cast on other players.

What you are actually looking at from a mitigation perspective is the following:
Warrior - Defensive Stance, Lay on Hands, Shield Wall
Paladin - Lay on Hands

So please dont insult our intelligence by arguing this point further.

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killerduki wrote:
1 week ago
The 46 Number you see it due to "Ignite Icon Buff" he have on him , once that Buff was gone , his dmg went down to 39 , which mean he has something that increased his SoR DMG!
https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=22850/sanctuary

It is simply https://classic.wowhead.com/item=18348/quelserrar 's proc effect.


Edit: Holyfrog beat me to it, but I checked through classic.wowhead.com and this is the only buff using that icon that it could possibly be.

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Holyfrog wrote:
1 week ago
killerduki wrote:
1 week ago
46 Damage is from Seal of Righteousness , while 51-52 is from Consecration.

You can very easy see his SoR Active or you tend to ignore it?!
The base damage of SoR at 60 is 18.675 multiplied by weapon speed, multiplied by 0.85 for onehand and 1.2 for 2h.

Because Invisusira is using a 2.0 speed Quel'Serrar, the base damage would be (18.675 * 2) * 0.85 = 31.7 damage. This gets further increased by onehanded specialization and improved Seal of Righteousness for a total of 39-40 damage per hit.

By looking at the damage dealt by Consecration and Holy Shield we can further calculate that Invisusira is using roughly 80-90 Spellpower on gear which directly translates into a 8-9 damage increase on SoR for a total damage of 48.

If we assume the number 46 is Seal of Righteousness, that would mean Invisusira does not have One-Handed Weapon Specialization. With only Improved Seal of Righteousness we would expect to see 45.51 damage which gets rounded up to 46.

So yes, you are actually correct. This number can be explained by Seal of Righteousness. However, the other number, 39. Cannot be explained by Seal of Righteousness.
Just look careful at it = 1st screenshot is with Ignite buff (how i call that icon since i don't know what is) , 2nd screenshot is without ignite buff.
This so called "Ignite" buff is Sanctuary, from Quel'Serrar. The proc provides you with 300 armor and some defense. It has no impact on the damage you deal. You simply cannot explain both these numbers with SoR damage alone. This leads me to believe partial resist is very much a thing.
By looking at the damage dealt by Consecration and Holy Shield we can further calculate that Invisusira is using roughly 80-90 Spellpower on gear which directly translates into a 8-9 damage increase on SoR for a total damage of 48.

If we assume the number 46 is Seal of Righteousness, that would mean Invisusira does not have One-Handed Weapon Specialization. With only Improved Seal of Righteousness we would expect to see 45.51 damage which gets rounded up to 46.
Sure i would consider myself wrong about Consecration , and would accept that 39 coming from Consecration , since it is extremely randomly around the targets he isn't targeting , on top that there is "clue about it" which we could consider Evidence :

https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Consecration

WoW Icon 16x16 Patch 1.7.0 (13-Sep-2005):
Fixed a bug where area of effect periodic damage spells were being resisted more frequently than they should have been when casting lower level ranks of the spell (affected spells were Blizzard, Consecration, Explosive Trap, Flamestrike, Hurricane, Rain of Fire and Volley).

Still as i said Consecration is not our best Single Target threat Ability , it is worse from all and heavy Mana inefficient , this has nothing with SOR Partial Resisting at all!

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killerduki wrote:
1 week ago
Still as i said Consecration is not our best Single Target threat Ability , it is worse from all and heavy Mana inefficient , this has nothing with SOR Partial Resisting at all!
Sure, it's not the best, nor the most mana efficient. It's still 100+ TPS when used with 100 Spellpower. TPS you sorely need.

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Holyfrog wrote:
1 week ago
My point is that this is not the current private server behaviour for these spells. I'm sure SoR is intentional and meant to act similar to how melee is penalized by glancing, dodge and parry. Because this is not the case on private servers (where Duki's experiences come from) it means Prot will produce less threat in Classic than on these servers.
I see no reason why would SoR be penalized by dodge, parry. It isn't on private servers, and it also isn't on classic beta. If you're looking for an old video, then from the top of my head I know Jamaz uses SoR in his video with reckoning and his SoR is never dodged/parried/missed.

Glancing blows are only a thing for white autoattacks, not for abilities.


Holyfrog wrote:
1 week ago
That is the current way it behaves on the Beta. If you find me a video of SoR proccing JoW from some old video ill change my position, but this is the current Beta behaviour of Judgement of Wisdom with SoR.
Theloras is not in the Beta btw. Our Spelladin tests are entirely done on private servers.
I know Theloras isn't in the beta, but apparently some of the spelladins are, and they do the testing on the beta realm. Unless this information was a lie?

I don't think there is any video, but we'll see.
Holyfrog wrote:
1 week ago
I have never said Paladins cannot tank in raids. But there are bosses that are straight up not doable with a Paladin, or where a Warrior/Druid would be a much better choice. This is contrary to Duki's claim that Paladins can tank every boss in the game.

Do you agree if I say having tanks capable of tanking every boss in a raid is better than having a tank that can only tank some? Unlike a Druid, a Paladin not currently tanking a boss is not capable of producing a lot of DPS, and without Illumination as a talent they will struggle to heal. That leaves swinging Nightfall which for Paladins have about a 40% uptime. A Protwarrior doing the same thing would have a 50% uptime on the debuff.
The thing is, duki has actual experience tanking those bosses, even if just on private servers.

And no, I wouldn't agree. I don't see any benefit from having tanks that can tank everything. It's similar to how you have to take multiple tanks with you into raids for specific encounters, even while some bosses don't require multiple tanks.
As you pointed out, off-duty Warrior tanks have little to do apart from proccing Nightfall. Dunno about Druids and their healing. But Paladins can heal without Illumination just fine. It should be obvious - Illumination is only a mana longevity talent, and doesn't affect healing output. Any paladin can heal damn well by just switching gear. I did exactly that as Ret :)
Holyfrog wrote:
1 week ago
I disagree. I think Spellpower gear is entirely necessary. A Druid has infinite rage due to their mechanics, so not going to discuss them, but a Warrior gain rage by dealing damage, and by taking damage. Their abilities are only limited to how much rage they can generate, and by equipping more threat gear they will increase both rage from attacking and rage from taking damage.
As a Warrior tank progress through the content they will rarely have rage issues. This is due to the fact that on lower tier content they can dualwield tank, and on higher tier content they currently do not overgear, they will be taking enough damage to sustain their rage regardless.

This is very different from a Paladin tank. Every single threat producing ability of the Paladin is on a cooldown. Judgement is 8/10 seconds, Holy Shield is 10 seconds, Consecration is 8 seconds. No matter how much gear a Paladin gets, their ability to dish out more threat never increases. They can improve the amount of time they are able to sustain a high threat rotation, but they will never produce more threat as they gear up, unless they go for spellpower.
This means a Paladin in full best in slot AQ40/Naxxramas gear will produce the exact same amount of threat as a Paladin wearing full green gear from 5mans. Only by increasing spellpower, or by having a weapon such as Thunderfury (super unrealistic) will the threat go up.
Well, you said it yourself - it's obvious that spellpower increases the threat generation. Your default gear - the Tank gear - WILL include spell damage from T2 and T2,5 pieces, which are also spell damage gear. Because there is no better gear to use. The itemization is just that bad outside of Warrior Tier sets.

I don't know what did you try to say with all the cooldowns or how does this relate to Warriors or Druids being able to generate rage. If you're comparing resource generation, then for Warriors there are:
- Their own abilities
- Rage consumable (2min CD)
- Taking damage
- Dealing damage

For Paladins, there are:
- Their own abilities (BoW)
- Mana consumable (2min CD)
- Separate Mana consumable (Runes)
- Dealing damage (JoW)
- Mana/MP5 trinkets
- MP5 consumables (food, elixirs)
- Abilities of others in the raid (Innervate)
- Gimmicks ( https://classic.wowhead.com/item=18637 can be used by any engineer in the raid )

From the cooldowns point of view, all tanks are limited by the global cooldown for using their abilities. But Consecration has 8 second duration, Holy Shield generates threat on blocks and also has duration, Seal has a duration. So the only ability that is really affected by the cooldown in terms of TPS is Judgement, and Judgement isn't affected by GCD.

This brings us to the major difference in threat generation. Warrior and Druid can only generate Threat from autoattack and using one ability at a time. You can't be using for example Sunder Armor and Shield Slam both at the same moment. So you're trying to spend all your Rage as fast as you can, but you're limited by GCD (and your ability to generate Rage).

Paladin is limited by his mana, but not really by GCD, because most of his spells are in effect even during the GCD. Meaning, Palatank can be using Consecration, Holy Shield, Seal of Righteousness at the same time. They are active and do their thing while you do something else - use Judgement for example. If Paladin abilities didn't have cooldowns, you could run around and place several Consecrations, generating HUGE amounts of threat, while still generating standard threat from everything else. Well, assuming you would have enough mana to do that :mrgreen:
Holyfrog wrote:
1 week ago
So just so its clear. A Paladin not stacking Spellpower will NEVER be able to hold aggro against a raid with optimal debuff usage, proper consumes and who all know what they are doing. They just wont.
Sorry, but nothing of what was said above proves that Paladin cannot hold aggro against a raid with optimal debuff usage. And you will be stacking spell damage - just not from all your gear. Greater Arcane Elixir + spelldmg oil + spelldmg enchant on a spelldamage weapon should be enough.
Holyfrog wrote:
1 week ago
And this bring me back to my previous point, which is that Spellpower gear is not that well itemized for tanking. Your T1 is garbage. Doesnt help tanking in any way. That leaves T2 and T2.5 as your threat gear. The problem is both these sets have considerably lower stamina than a Warrior's tier sets. Where a Warrior would be using Tier sets mixed with offensive offpieces (also with high stamina) a Paladin need to use T2 and T2.5 in his/her gear, and rely on defensive mitigation offpieces, which again typically either have the same or lower stamina than plate DPS gear a Warrior can tank would be using.
I believe we have already established that Palatanks have lower health pool than Warriors, and that itemization is the main downside to Palatanking.

For example, your choice of wrists in Phase 1 will be https://classic.wowhead.com/item=12550 or https://classic.wowhead.com/item=16857 until Dire Maul opens with https://classic.wowhead.com/item=18754 in P2 and then https://classic.wowhead.com/item=16951 in P3. An obvious pick for T2. As stated above, parts of T2 and T2,5 will be parts of your Tank gear, not parts of a separate Threat gear, simply because there isn't really anything else to tank with.
Holyfrog wrote:
1 week ago
There's some bosses you dont want Judgement of Wisdom. Especially in MC and BWL there's barely any fights apart from Nef where you would want one. You also cannot rely on a Holy Paladin always being able to keep up the Judgement.
I agree with you a Retpala is great to have in the group of the Protpala, but it's a huge obvious disadvantage regardless. Instead of your tank group being Tank, Tank, Tank, Warlock, Paladin, you now need two tank groups so the Paladin tank can get both Sanctity Aura, Devotion Aura and Blood Pact.
Ok, please explain why you don't want JoW? :mrgreen:

Ok, count with me. :mrgreen: You have 3 tanks, 1 paladin, 1 warlock.
1 tank = Protadin, using Devotion aura.
2 tanks are Warriors.
Paladin is ret, giving Sanctity.
Warlock is warlock as usual. 1 + 2 + 1 +1 = 5, one group, no special needs. All tanks get stamina from imp and Devo aura. Where's the problem?
Holyfrog wrote:
1 week ago
This also mean the second tank group need 3 friggin Paladins (The Prot needs Ret aura too), and you will need the Ret to take a DPS loss from not being in another stacked melee group.
Who says prot needs ret aura? :lol:
Holyfrog wrote:
1 week ago
Not true. I am sorry, but you really need this mana regeneration to function. A Protpala typically have under 3000 mana. You cannot sustain your threat unless you get every last piece of mana regen you can. Especially true when you get into Naxxramas and you need to incorporate Exorcism into your rotation.
Well, this brings us back to good old duki and me vs. statements...

About holding threat... You remember the Magmadar video being thrown around a lot? There's no JoW, and there's no mana potion used, yet he held threat. How is that possible?
About Exorcism in your rotation... So a Paladin is able to maintank MC, BWL and AQ40, but not Naxxramas unless he starts using Exorcism, correct? :lol:
Holyfrog wrote:
1 week ago
You are not thinking about this the right way. Paladins require Mana Potions just to produce their regular standard threat rotation.
No, they don't. It's been shown in the Magmadar video. Also for @Linguine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of ... hilosophy)
When two parties are in a discussion and one makes a claim that the other disputes, the one who makes the claim typically has a burden of proof to justify or substantiate that claim especially when it challenges a perceived status quo.
I believe we can all agree that the standard, or the status quo, is NOT chugging manapots on cooldown. You have just claimed that Paladins need to chug manapots to be able to generate a standard threat rotation. That is why this is your claim to prove. @Holyfrog
Holyfrog wrote:
1 week ago
A Protpala chugging mana pots can probably produce similar threat to a full Protection Warrior, but in this case the Protwarrior have the advantage of a higher base armor from being able to use better itemized gear in the first place, on top of 2000 armor from the pot, on top of 10% damage reduction from def stance.
Again, you are claiming that a Palatank chugging manapots cannot produce more threat than a Warrior. I believe the general consensus was that Paladins have good threat, that's why they're good for AoE tanking, unlike Warriors! But you haven't provided any proof.
Holyfrog wrote:
1 week ago
When you say Paladins have 2000 additional armor, you are not being entire honest in your comparison.

Where your dualwield argument fails is that you assume Dualwield tanking is required to produce the same TPS as a Paladin tank. It's not. Dualwield tanking is used to push your threat ceiling much much higher, to allow for DPS to go all out and reduce clear times and kill times of the raids and bosses. Dualwield is not required, but it's a major advantage that Paladins dont have an equivalent to.
Alright, I see it this way.
First, you prove that Paladins cannot produce more threat than Warriors, as stated above. A video comparison would be best. Then we can start comparing the Standard Tankadin with Dual-wielding Tank Warr.
Holyfrog wrote:
1 week ago
There is simply never a case where a Protpaladin have higher armor than a Warrior UNLESS you are comparing a Protpala to a Dualwield Warrior, but thats not a fair comparison as the threat ceiling of a DW Warrior is miles beyond what a Paladin is capable of producing. If your guild is going for lightning fast killspeeds you will not be running a Protpala.
Well, YOU started comparing DW Tank to Palatank. And it was also YOU who specifically compared the armor totals. Your reasoning was that Paladins need to use Mana pots to maintain "high threat rotation", so they cannot chug Stoneshield pots, while Warrior can chug Stoneshield pots while DW tanking. The way I see it, you simply forgot that Paladins don't lose armor from unequipping shield.
Either way, this comparison only makes sense if you agree that Paladins chugging mana pots are able to match DW Tanks in threat, because only then it makes sense to compare their stats. In your previous paragraph, you said that paladins cannot produce more threat than a Warrior and that Palatanks need to chug manapots to produce "standard threat" of a standard Warrior tank. So prove that, then we can talk DW Tank vs. Palatank :wink:
Holyfrog wrote:
1 week ago
The exact same thing applies to a Warrior. They can also use a wide variety of threat trinkets. HoJ, Blackhand's Breadth, DFT, Kiss of the Spider, etc.
The difference here is Paladins have NO on demand damage mitigation abilities available to them outside of Glyph of Deflection.
A trinket is not a CLASS ABILITY. You were comparing TRINKET USAGE to CLASS ABILITY. That's bullshit. Either we compare trinkets, or we compare abilities, not both mingled together.

If you compare haste trinkets, then Warrior gets no haste trinket until P6, whereas Paladin gets one in P3.
If you compare stat boosts, then 2% crit is a REALLY crappy trinket. And if you compare DFT, compare to SP trinkets.

Yes, Paladins don't have on demand mitigation abilities. In TBC, Tankadins also had NO on demand damage mitigation abilities, yet they were really good.
Holyfrog wrote:
1 week ago
Btw, a 100% heal wont help you live through Maexxna web wrap making the final web wrap entirely RNG compared to simply using Shield Wall and running no risk of the tank dying. Chromaggus getting frenzied while the Hunter is stunned from bronze affilction is also a really good time for Shield Wall, or multiple other scenarios where incoming damage is temporarily high or the healers are not able to heal for whatever reason such as being out of range on Ouro, or someone dying at a bad time or during enrage of Huhuran. Shield Wall is simply much much better than anything a Paladin can bring as it can almost entirely negate something going wrong by providing plenty time for the raid to recover. Lay on Hands will heal you up once, then you keep taking full damage.
I'm pretty sure that a 100% heal will certainly help in either of these situations you mentioned. It might not save you, but the same can be said for Shield Wall. It always depends on your healers, yes? No disputing that Shield Wall is a great ability to have.
Holyfrog wrote:
1 week ago
I already explained this and part of the explanation is even in then quote you linked. You require an extra debuff slot ( crusader ), you require someone to pull for you ( Grenades have slow travel times ). You require really weird group compositions such as needing a Retpaladin AND another Holypaladin in you group as well as a second SM/Ruin warlock for Blood Pact instead of that Warlock being able to go DS/Ruin for more DPS. So yes, the raid very much has to work around your weaknesses.

Have you actually raided a a Paladin?
- Requiring one debuff slot makes your spec weak? :neutral: I see. Then I guess there are a lot of "weak" specs out there...
- You don't require anyone to pull for you. This was also one of the things I asked previously. Nobody replied.
- You don't require any specific group composition. I explained it above.

Yes I have. But I'm starting to wonder if you really did raid as one. I don't see how could you describe such nonsense like requiring 2 paladins and 2 warlocks with Tankading in the tank group.

   killerduki
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Holyfrog wrote:
1 week ago
killerduki wrote:
1 week ago
Hammer of Ragnaros - Ranged Knockback and Damage
20–30s cooldown. "By fire be purged!" This attack targets a random player and knocks back all players (excluding the target) within ~20 yards. They are knocked back from the impact point which is at the foot of the target.

And who are "THEM" standing next to tank?! Nobody !
Offtanks.

You want 2, preferrably 3 tanks for Ragnaros. Healers need to be in range, which means the area these offtanks stand on will be very small. Because its not possible to guarantee you do not resist the melee range knockback, there will be times when you as a Paladin tank gets knocked back, and you need to run back into range with the boss.

During this run-in it's unavoidable that you need to run past the healers, and past the other two tanks. If you were to get a Hammer of Ragnaros right as this occured, and you happen to not resist said Hammer of Ragnaros you will end up knocking back half the tank healers, or worse, both other offtanks, leaving your raid with only one tank in melee range. If you then were to die, or eat another knockback, this likely means a wipe as Ragnaros now starts oneshotting casters one by one until some tank can get back into melee range.

Ragnaros very much can be done as a Paladin tank. But please do not say its easier or just as easy with a Paladin tank because that is simply flat out false. Having more mana users near the melee or tanks means your raid is subjected to more RNG than if you were to use a Warrior or Druid.

I am not going to bother addressing this dumb Shield Wall argument any further btw, so please stop posting about it.
All I am going to say about it is that a Warrior tank will ALWAYS have Lay on Hands when needed in addition to Shield Wall. A Paladin cannot ever have both.
I also have no idea why you think using Shield Wall is selfish. It's a cooldown that is there for you to use. You absolutely want to use it if you need it. Besides, if you need multiple Shield Walls you can just have another warrior Taunt (Hey, remember this little spell?) and then use another Shield Wall.

Obviously this does not work on every boss, but works on some. If you get Time Lapse on Chromaggus f.ex you can just have the off-tank use Shield Wall as well. There's nothing selfish about Shield Wall. In an case, it's dumb fucking argument, because Lay on Hands can be cast on other players.

What you are actually looking at from a mitigation perspective is the following:
Warrior - Defensive Stance, Lay on Hands, Shield Wall
Paladin - Lay on Hands

So please dont insult our intelligence by arguing this point further.
You want 2, preferrably 3 tanks for Ragnaros. Healers need to be in range, which means the area these offtanks stand on will be very small. Because its not possible to guarantee you do not resist the melee range knockback, there will be times when you as a Paladin tank gets knocked back, and you need to run back into range with the boss.

During this run-in it's unavoidable that you need to run past the healers, and past the other two tanks. If you were to get a Hammer of Ragnaros right as this occured, and you happen to not resist said Hammer of Ragnaros you will end up knocking back half the tank healers, or worse, both other offtanks, leaving your raid with only one tank in melee range. If you then were to die, or eat another knockback, this likely means a wipe as Ragnaros now starts oneshotting casters one by one until some tank can get back into melee range.
As i said , even YOU eating it ,the other Tanks are going to Resist the knockback , since it is resistable by Fire Resistance ....

If Paladin Tank gets knocked back , usually you don't eat Hammers during that period , because sitting next or close to Healers is much further away than 20 Yards, that mean you are not going to be affected by Hammers in that case!
I also have no idea why you think using Shield Wall is selfish. It's a cooldown that is there for you to use. You absolutely want to use it if you need it. Besides, if you need multiple Shield Walls you can just have another warrior Taunt (Hey, remember this little spell?) and then use another Shield Wall.
Shield Wall is selfish , because you DONT use it on others to help them , you only use it for your OWN!

Taunt?! Right = Chromaggus = Immune Taunt , Maexxna = Immune Taunt = All those Bosses who really do require Shield Walls during Enrages!

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Psojed wrote:
1 week ago
Holyfrog wrote:
1 week ago
My point is that this is not the current private server behaviour for these spells. I'm sure SoR is intentional and meant to act similar to how melee is penalized by glancing, dodge and parry. Because this is not the case on private servers (where Duki's experiences come from) it means Prot will produce less threat in Classic than on these servers.
I see no reason why would SoR be penalized by dodge, parry. It isn't on private servers, and it also isn't on classic beta. If you're looking for an old video, then from the top of my head I know Jamaz uses SoR in his video with reckoning and his SoR is never dodged/parried/missed.

He says that SoR is given a penalty similar to how melee is given a penalty. Not that it is given the same penalty.

It is not affected by dodge or parry, but it has it's own penalty built in instead.

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Oh you're right, I misread it.
But I think the reply will be similar, I see no reason why would specifically SoR get penalized.

   killerduki
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