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Linguine wrote:
1 year ago
Stfuppercut wrote:
1 year ago
Yes they are. HIGHLY based on consumables in fact. You dont plan on using dark runes or mana pots and youre going to play a prot paladin? No engineering? Any of the other pallies in here want to back this guy up? I have heard some wild things in this thread but nothing quite that wild.
Bolded for emphasis on what I believe @Stfuppercut was really getting at here.
killerduki wrote:
1 year ago
Here is your Skarm using shit tons of Consumables as Warrior Tank.
I see buff type consumes, but I never saw any engineering, pots, or any of the special items on his bar meant for emergencies or special situations go on CD. If I missed something please point me to the area in the video that he used them.

But as for the buff consumes, if you look to the end of the video you'll see that he wears them even when he is in Full T3 on his real tank. Dreadnaught versus Molten Core is a joke, but he's got them on anyway. Why? Because the dude plays his best 100% of the time, clearly.

If "big" Skarm is wearing Consumes without needing them, how are we to know if Lilskarm needs them? He had all his special consumes in his bags and never reached for them. Some of which, by the way, a Prot Pally could never use such as the Limited Invulnerability pots because the Pally would be chugging mana pots, non-optionally and on a regular basis every fight along with dark runes and anything else they could get their hands on. Same with engi items: they have to pull. They're not for special cases, they're for all the time.

And while I would love to find a video of a Warrior tanking without any type of consume, buff or CD use, it likely doesn't exist for the same reason that there is next to no talk of mages trying to raid with Arcane Missles as their primary DPS method. The people who play these classes don't play them to roll janky half baked combos, they play them to do their best.
Some of which, by the way, a Prot Pally could never use such as the Limited Invulnerability pots because the Pally would be chugging mana pots, non-optionally and on a regular basis every fight along with dark runes and anything else they could get their hands on.


Armor Pot used , without Thunderfury Tanking and using Flurry Axe (no stats , no stamina) , which also proving you wrong here about it.

Only food and Armor Pot used and that's all.

Unlike me with Pre Raid Blue BiS , Skarm used shit tons of Consumed wearing T3 Gear.

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Linguine wrote:
1 year ago
killerduki wrote:
1 year ago
Single Elixir wont change much or nothing at all , especially as it can be seen on the Video threat was by huge margins higher than the Raid Group threat. So with or without that Elixir, the kill would have been done and nothing would be changed.
WTH you have THUNDERFURY ON! No duh the threat was high.

And also you are clearly demonstrating my earlier point that you need Dwarf Priests for fear ward: you are requiring other people to min/max so that you don't have to.

An extremely selfish outlook. Ordinarily you require min/maxing because you already are and want to be with like-minded people, not because you need them to carry you.
And also you are clearly demonstrating my earlier point that you need Dwarf Priests for fear ward: you are requiring other people to min/max so that you don't have to.
Even Warriors are using Dwarf Priests or as Horde Shamans for removing Fears, Raid is composed with 40 People and everyone (including min/max) are using them!

Your point is here to Troll as it seems , while me as Protection paladin needs a Dwarf priest for fear ward, Warriors do need Paladins for extra Resistance , so he also requiring other people to min/max either!

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killerduki wrote:
1 year ago
Even Warriors are using Dwarf Priests
As a matter of both min/maxing and convinience they use them. A.K.A. NO prot pallies because they are sub-optimal. Ordinary as well as hard-core guilds can get by without them if need be. Prot Pallies? No way around it, you need Dwarf Priests to tank Magmadar.
killerduki wrote:
1 year ago
Horde Shamans for removing Fears
There is no spec or race of shaman that is barred from acquiring Tremor Totem.
killerduki wrote:
1 year ago
while me as Protection paladin needs a Dwarf priest for fear ward, Warriors do need Paladins for extra Resistance , so he also requiring other people to min/max either!
The warrior is min/maxing so there is nothing wrong with him asking others to do the same.

Furthermore, bringing Paladins to the raid wouldn't qualify as min/maxing. That's called normal.

   Stfuppercut
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Psojed wrote:
1 year ago
Linguine wrote:
1 year ago
Stfuppercut wrote:
1 year ago
Yes they are. HIGHLY based on consumables in fact. You dont plan on using dark runes or mana pots and youre going to play a prot paladin? No engineering? Any of the other pallies in here want to back this guy up? I have heard some wild things in this thread but nothing quite that wild.
Bolded for emphasis on what I believe @Stfuppercut was really getting at here.
I am still waiting for his reply to my longpost. But seeing he reacted to your post but didn't bother to provide examples I asked for, I believe we can safely ignore Stfuppercut's statements.

Tankadins do NOT require using ANY mana potions or runes. Using them is OPTIONAL, not mandatory.
Tankadin uses Judgement of Wisdom to replenish mana during a long fight.
He didn't bother replying because you never refuted him. You completely missed what he actually said in that post and I bolded it so that you could understand.

Please give us a video of a Pally in pre-raid BiS blues *with everyone else in Pre-Raid BiS blues on progression night* not using a potion in a fight. You can even have consume buffs up to make it even with Lilskarm.

Killerduki's video of ONLY casting Consecration while wearing a legendary weapon and equivalent gear means nothing compared to Lilskarm tanking Magmadar in much less gear. Let's see him have to cast his other spells and not go oom in blues.

   Stfuppercut
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killerduki wrote:
1 year ago
Armor Pot used , without Thunderfury Tanking and using Flurry Axe (no stats , no stamina) , which also proving you wrong here about it.

Only food and Armor Pot used and that's all.

Unlike me with Pre Raid Blue BiS , Skarm used shit tons of Consumed wearing T3 Gear.
Thunderfury doesn't give you mana and I'm not a Pally gear buff but even I can tell you look like you're wearing the exact same helm.

Which means your guild is likely geared out the wazoo and this fight is beyond easy.

If the DPS can kill the boss before you go oom it's fine for you but that's not a progression raid if they already have the gear.

   Stfuppercut
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Linguine wrote:
1 year ago
Psojed wrote:
1 year ago
Linguine wrote:
1 year ago
Stfuppercut wrote:
1 year ago
Yes they are. HIGHLY based on consumables in fact. You dont plan on using dark runes or mana pots and youre going to play a prot paladin? No engineering? Any of the other pallies in here want to back this guy up? I have heard some wild things in this thread but nothing quite that wild.
Bolded for emphasis on what I believe @Stfuppercut was really getting at here.
I am still waiting for his reply to my longpost. But seeing he reacted to your post but didn't bother to provide examples I asked for, I believe we can safely ignore Stfuppercut's statements.

Tankadins do NOT require using ANY mana potions or runes. Using them is OPTIONAL, not mandatory.
Tankadin uses Judgement of Wisdom to replenish mana during a long fight.
He didn't bother replying because you never refuted him. You completely missed what he actually said in that post and I bolded it so that you could understand.

Please give us a video of a Pally in pre-raid BiS blues *with everyone else in Pre-Raid BiS blues on progression night* not using a potion in a fight. You can even have consume buffs up to make it even with Lilskarm.

Killerduki's video of ONLY casting Consecration while wearing a legendary weapon and equivalent gear means nothing compared to Lilskarm tanking Magmadar in much less gear. Let's see him have to cast his other spells and not go oom in blues.
Pre Raid BiS Blues on progression night , NO THUNDERFURY , (Even Skarm using shit tons of Consumes in his Videos despite him wearing a Tier 3 Equipment,so not using Potion is also telling that you play double standards here and you are here for trolling only), Pre Raid group and Green geared group!

Garr - Only Armor Potion used (unlike Skarm with shit lots of Consumes and T3)


Gehenas - Didn't use Potions for mana at all , just Elixir for SP and Food (unlike Skarm with shit tons of Consumes and T3)



Lucifron - Armor scroll , Food buff and SP Elixir , used only once Demonic Rune because Curse from Boss drained my mana, but that's all (unlike Skarm with shit tons of Consumes and T3).



Majordomo - SP Elixir and only at beginning GFPP , no Runes ,no Pots used (unlike Skarm with shit tons of Consumes and T3).



Your Ignorance is so strong and demands so big with nothing to offer as a result to prove your claims!

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Linguine wrote:
1 year ago
killerduki wrote:
1 year ago
Armor Pot used , without Thunderfury Tanking and using Flurry Axe (no stats , no stamina) , which also proving you wrong here about it.

Only food and Armor Pot used and that's all.

Unlike me with Pre Raid Blue BiS , Skarm used shit tons of Consumed wearing T3 Gear.
Thunderfury doesn't give you mana and I'm not a Pally gear buff but even I can tell you look like you're wearing the exact same helm.

Which means your guild is likely geared out the wazoo and this fight is beyond easy.

If the DPS can kill the boss before you go oom it's fine for you but that's not a progression raid if they already have the gear.
Yeah Sure Enchanted Thorium Helm = Blue Crafted Blacksmithing Helm = Pre Raid and Pre Raid Geared Raid Group = Progression Run , no Carry , no Geared group, no Thunderfury either in these Videos as Progression Raid!

You come with something ,please next time bring evidence for your claims and show me evidence with same Footage of Warrior doing the same!

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Linguine wrote:
1 year ago
He didn't bother replying because you never refuted him. You completely missed what he actually said in that post and I bolded it so that you could understand.
Then you either can't read or you are blind.
Linguine wrote:
1 year ago
Please give us a video of a Pally in pre-raid BiS blues *with everyone else in Pre-Raid BiS blues on progression night* not using a potion in a fight. You can even have consume buffs up to make it even with Lilskarm.
Please select a boss that should be tanked, the raid composition so that it is acceptable, and provide a BiS list that is acceptable. Then we can start talking about recording a video which will satisfy your needs.

So far, you and Stfupper have only tried to misdirect this discussion away from stated facts. For example, the Magmadar video was recommended as proof for not using consumables.

@Stfuppercut used his wall of text to make it look like using Greater Arcane Elixir was a serious crime to "optimal" tanking. Obvious bullshit, as consumables are not only commonly used on raids, but also using some doesn't affect if a build is working or not.

You @Linguine have tried to misdirect the discussion by using Thunderfury as your main point of focus. That is also bullshit move, since you can clearly see the Tankadin use ALL his abilities that he would be using even if he had no Thunderfury to begin with.

But more importantly, let me remind you, I linked that video to prove that you don't need to use consumables. Using TF has no effect on the validity of the proof, because Thunderfury has no effect that would replace a Flask of Titans, a Mongoose Elixir, or a Major mana potion. These are all example consumables mentioned as "required" and "extreme minimum" by the bad Tankadin guide.
Linguine wrote:
1 year ago
Killerduki's video of ONLY casting Consecration while wearing a legendary weapon and equivalent gear means nothing compared to Lilskarm tanking Magmadar in much less gear. Let's see him have to cast his other spells and not go oom in blues.
You can watch any of the videos killerduki linked previously, where he doesn't use Thunderfury.

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killerduki wrote:
1 year ago
Yeah Sure Enchanted Thorium Helm = Blue Crafted Blacksmithing Helm = Pre Raid and Pre Raid Geared Raid Group = Progression Run , no Carry , no Geared group, no Thunderfury either in these Videos as Progression Raid!
There is clearly a Priest in the background of the flurry axe video wearing Benediction and this is not a Progression raid as that item's requisite quest item drops from a later boss. Even with a blurry video that obscures most of the gear, I can still see it.

Don't lie to me.


killerduki wrote:
1 year ago
Pre Raid BiS Blues on progression night , NO THUNDERFURY , (Even Skarm using shit tons of Consumes in his Videos despite him wearing a Tier 3 Equipment,so not using Potion is also telling that you play double standards here and you are here for trolling only), Pre Raid group and Green geared group!

Garr - Only Armor Potion used (unlike Skarm with shit lots of Consumes and T3)
Like I just said, this is not a progression raid as people are clearly wearing epics from already clearing the raid.

I already addressed the Skarm+Consumes conundrum in an earlier post. See below.
Linguine wrote:
1 year ago
But as for the buff consumes, if you look to the end of the video you'll see that he wears them even when he is in Full T3 on his real tank. Dreadnaught versus Molten Core is a joke, but he's got them on anyway. Why? Because the dude plays his best 100% of the time, clearly.

If "big" Skarm is wearing Consumes without needing them, how are we to know if Lilskarm needs them? He had all his special consumes in his bags and never reached for them. Some of which, by the way, a Prot Pally could never use such as the Limited Invulnerability pots because the Pally would be chugging mana pots, non-optionally and on a regular basis every fight along with dark runes and anything else they could get their hands on. Same with engi items: they have to pull. They're not for special cases, they're for all the time.

And while I would love to find a video of a Warrior tanking without any type of consume, buff or CD use, it likely doesn't exist for the same reason that there is next to no talk of mages trying to raid with Arcane Missles as their primary DPS method. The people who play these classes don't play them to roll janky half baked combos, they play them to do their best.

   Stfuppercut
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Psojed wrote:
1 year ago
@Stfuppercut used his wall of text to make it look like using Greater Arcane Elixir was a serious crime to "optimal" tanking. Obvious bullshit, as consumables are not only commonly used on raids, but also using some doesn't affect if a build is working or not.
You claimed no consumes. There were consumes. Your claim was false. That's all.

Psojed wrote:
1 year ago
You @Linguine have tried to misdirect the discussion by using Thunderfury as your main point of focus. That is also bullshit move, since you can clearly see the Tankadin use ALL his abilities that he would be using even if he had no Thunderfury to begin with.
Thunderfury implies that he has a boatload of gear he could never acquire without first being carried.
Psojed wrote:
1 year ago
You can watch any of the videos killerduki linked previously, where he doesn't use Thunderfury.
Not a progression raid as people in the video are wearing epics from later content. See my above post for more details. For all we know he has Thunderfury in his bags and is using Flurry Axe for a test run.
Psojed wrote:
1 year ago
Thunderfury has no effect that would replace a Flask of Titans, a Mongoose Elixir, or a Major mana potion.
Thunderfury creates more threat, which could correlate to not needing to spend as much mana on abilities to generate threat. In addition to that, the raid will produce more DPS (because their gear is likewise increased through raiding) which means less mana is necessary.

So yes, that's got to be at least one major mana pot.

   Stfuppercut
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Linguine wrote:
1 year ago
There is clearly a Priest in the background of the flurry axe video wearing Benediction and this is not a Progression raid as that item's requisite quest item drops from a later boss. Even with a blurry video that obscures most of the gear, I can still see it.
Upon closer look there are at least two https://classic.wowhead.com/item=18608/benediction, a https://classic.wowhead.com/item=18348/quelserrar on one of the OT's (only requires ony, but still, the group isn't hurting for gear), and what appears to be https://classic.wowhead.com/item=19864/bloodcaller glowing green on a mage in the back.

And that's just the stuff that glows. With ZG gear equipped that means that BWL is out and they could have gear from there that I just can't see due to non-glow. They've certainly had ample time to clear a whole lot of MC and get a whole lot of drops.

But wait. There's more.

In the comments of the Flurry Axe Video someone asks Killerduki what his gear and spec is, and Killerduki links a video clip and says "This was the Gear used, only difference is that in Garr i didn't use or had Thunderfury , so i used Flurry Axe."



One of the Pieces is https://classic.wowhead.com/item=21479/ ... -immovable from AQ and his items have ZG enchants.

He did not link his shield but it appears to be https://classic.wowhead.com/item=20688/earthen-guard from Baron Kazum - Also not attainable.


Items he could not have for preraid:
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=21503/ ... and-reaver
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=19888/ ... ds-embrace
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=18406/ ... d-talisman
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=19913/ ... ed-greaves
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=21479/ ... -immovable
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=20688/earthen-guard
ZG Enchants + Any other enchants that weren't released yet


Things he could have had:

https://classic.wowhead.com/item=12620/ ... m#comments (Mouses too quick for me to get a solid look but likely has this item)
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=11927/ ... l-guardian
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=13091/ ... hal-morris
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=18754/ ... ed-bracers
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=10795/drakeclaw-band x2
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=11810/force-of-will
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=14552/ ... -pauldrons
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=14624/ ... chestplate
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=871/flurry-axe

Now also keep in mind that not only does he have AQ gear, but his Raid has AQ gear and everything in between.

killerduki wrote:
1 year ago
Unlike me with Pre Raid Blue BiS
Debunked.

   Stfuppercut
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Enjoy in watching all i had, unlike your Skarm Protection Warrior using Tier 3 Gear and shit tons of consumables!

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Linguine wrote:
1 year ago

You claimed no consumes. There were consumes. Your claim was false. That's all.
WRONG!
I claimed one consumable from the list, then zero used during the fight, as in zero drank Mana potions. Bolded my own quote that nobody apparently bothers to read:
Psojed wrote:
1 year ago
Care to explain @Stfuppercut how was killerduki able to tank raid bosses in his videos NOT using all these listed consumables? For example his Magmadar video, where he's using a single elixir from the list, no flask, no other consumables, no potion, no dark rune.
Linguine wrote:
1 year ago
Thunderfury implies that he has a boatload of gear he could never acquire without first being carried.
Wrong. Him being carried, as in not being able to tank before he obtained raid gear, is just a belief you picked, and can be proven wrong by watching his vids without the gear.

Wearing raid gear only implies that his gear is not pre-raid and that his guild works, since they can actually clear content.

Linguine wrote:
1 year ago
Psojed wrote:
1 year ago
You can watch any of the videos killerduki linked previously, where he doesn't use Thunderfury.
Not a progression raid as people in the video are wearing epics from later content. See my above post for more details. For all we know he has Thunderfury in his bags and is using Flurry Axe for a test run.
And how exactly matters that it's NOT a progression raid? Molten Core progress was done in 2005. We know all about the bosses today. Any raid today, even with phase 1 pre-raid gear, isn't a progression raid, because they already know wtf to do.
But most importantly, "progression raid" or not doesn't affect if Tankadin works or not.

How exactly matters what I have in my bag? This post isn't about if duki has phase 1 bis ( he doesn't, IT'S FREAKING OBVIOUS, doh). This post is about Palatanks!

Linguine wrote:
1 year ago
Psojed wrote:
1 year ago
Thunderfury has no effect that would replace a Flask of Titans, a Mongoose Elixir, or a Major mana potion.
Thunderfury creates more threat, which could correlate to not needing to spend as much mana on abilities to generate threat. In addition to that, the raid will produce more DPS (because their gear is likewise increased through raiding) which means less mana is necessary.

So yes, that's got to be at least one major mana pot.
WRONG!
Thunderfury provides exact threat with each proc. You can easily count the number of procs, get the amount of threat generated by TF, then substract that from any given value displayed in threat meter during the fight. It's so ducking easy.

There was never a situation, where his threat was barely higher than any DPSer' threat, so there was also never a situation during the Magmadar fight, where he would require to drink a pot and use some spell to quicky generate threat.
= using TF or not had no effect on his mana.

And again, this goes to the point where you're demonizing using a single mana potion on a raid boss. WTF? So healers who bring mana pots all the time, are still optimal healers even if they use them. But if Tankadin uses a mana pot during a boss fight, it's wrong? Yeah, bullshit.

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Btw., A small tidbit I noticed in one of your posts.

Why would a pally use limited invulnerability potion? Dude, we have two bubbles with exactly the same effect. /facepalm

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@Linguine , thanks for babysitting these guys, I've been CRAZY busy with work and can only post on the layering threads for now. Limited time. Try to keep these two under control until I have more time to come back and monitor them. Thanks again man, you're a stud!

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2000 IQ :wink:
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Stfuppercut wrote:
1 year ago
@Linguine , thanks for babysitting these guys, I've been CRAZY busy with work and can only post on the layering threads for now. Limited time. Try to keep these two under control until I have more time to come back and monitor them. Thanks again man, you're a stud!
This post just oozes assholery, man.

If there's any more comments like the one above I'll just lock this thread and start banning, is that understood guys?

I don't want every discussion on this forum to end up with people getting demeaned or debased like this, for ANY reason.

We should be able to debate a subject with some heat thrown in but don't take it over the fucking top.

   killerduki Psojed Rinkusan Aoth
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teebling wrote:
1 year ago
Stfuppercut wrote:
1 year ago
@Linguine , thanks for babysitting these guys, I've been CRAZY busy with work and can only post on the layering threads for now. Limited time. Try to keep these two under control until I have more time to come back and monitor them. Thanks again man, you're a stud!
This post just oozes assholery, man.

If there's any more comments like the one above I'll just lock this thread and start banning, is that understood guys?

I don't want every discussion on this forum to end up with people getting demeaned or debased like this, for ANY reason.

We should be able to debate a subject with some heat thrown in but don't take it over the fucking top.
And unfortunately that is their Goal , to have threads like this (who advocate Protection Paladins) locked,deleted or removed.

So anytime there is any thread pop up like this, they will go for it until it goes locked.

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Psojed wrote:
1 year ago
Btw., A small tidbit I noticed in one of your posts.

Why would a pally use limited invulnerability potion? Dude, we have two bubbles with exactly the same effect. /facepalm
They spin over Thunderfury , ignoring the other 3 Videos of me using Flurry Axe.

And it's funny ,the Gear i use is mixed between low lvl Raids and Pre Raids , but Videos Recorded was from me using Pre Raid Gear , while the "Legendary Video" was from later raids where i obtained some Gear.

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Psojed wrote:
1 year ago
Btw., A small tidbit I noticed in one of your posts.

Why would a pally use limited invulnerability potion? Dude, we have two bubbles with exactly the same effect. /facepalm
It was not clear to me if Blessing of Protection and Divine Shield are aggro wipes or temporary aggro redirections. I tried the comments on https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=10278 ... n#comments but it's just everyone asking the same thing. However a comment on https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=1020/ ... d#comments does claim it is an aggro wipe.

On the post for https://classic.wowhead.com/item=3387/l ... n#comments "devindred" says:
Note that the aggro reduction is 100% for the duration of the invulnerability buff, but you regain your aggro immediately after the buff fades. It acts like Fade and not Vanish.

This is still quite useful as it gives the tank a nice window to regain aggro over the mob/boss.
Therefore it is uncertain to me if Blessing of Protection is as good as Limited Invulnerability (things are looking quite bad for Divine Shield), but Limited Invulnerability is solid.

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Psojed wrote:
1 year ago
Wearing raid gear only implies that his gear is not pre-raid and that his guild works, since they can actually clear content.
We have no idea who the tank was for the content that they cleared. They could have had a different tank, or the guild was formed after AQ started and people had all been from different guilds. Members could have been pugging MC, ZG, AQ20, and BWL for gear.
Psojed wrote:
1 year ago
can be proven wrong by watching his vids without the gear.
I have a very long post showing that in the videos where he claims to not have gear he actually does. Everything but Thunderfury and gear from raids he could not possibly have on a progression raid.

So there are no videos without gear as far as I know, and taking his word for it after he intentionally mislead me would be foolish. That gear and the gear of his raid is more than going to make up for mana problems on what many consider the easiest raid of vanilla.


@killerduki Unfortunately after all the solid debunking I did on your claim of pre-raid BiS only, I cannot take your videos or claims at face value. Until you do a pre-raid BiS video where you inspect all gear pieces prior to the fight all your claims of pre-raid BiS are suspect. There is no rush and you can do this on the release of Classic, which is ideal because then there will also not be a question about how much gear your guild may possess in that short timeframe. (To do one now would heavily imply your raid has the exact same gear AQ+.)

killerduki wrote:
1 year ago
And unfortunately that is their Goal , to have threads like this (who advocate Protection Paladins) locked,deleted or removed.

So anytime there is any thread pop up like this, they will go for it until it goes locked.
I do not appreciate this unfounded accusation and it is ad hominem attacks (implied or outright) like this that is why Teebs is threatening to lock the thread.

My goal in participating in this thread is to give fair warning to prospective players of the potential realities they will face if they try to roll a Protection Paladin. If that is truly their goal they may do it, and I would certainly not stop you from doing it as you clearly love it. However, if someone had warned me back in Vanilla, I would have never rolled what I did and I would have been happier for it.

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Why in each video is there three stacks of Judgement of Wisdom on the boss?


Not only that, but a host of inefficient debuffs. We can diagnose that the raid groups that Killerduki has ran with aren't exactly the brightest bunch. It's not difficult to hold aggro against people using suboptimal debuffs and assumedly rotations.

We already know that judgment stacking isn't going to be possible in classic, as on the beta it's not possible.

I'd also like to go back to another video of Duki's to point out some hypocrisy;


You say you're spamming max rank consecrate. You're doing this on mobs out in the open world, then taking 20+ seconds to run to the next mobs. Not only this, you're keeping up Judgment of Wisdom, Seal of Wisdom, not refreshing Seal of Wisdom for every judgment, not using judgment on cooldown as you would with Seal of the Righteous, not using Holy Shield as you would in a raiding environment. You also have a weapon buff active, which we can assume is mana oil given all the misdirection in the video.

The problem with Killerduki is he takes small facets of Prot Paladin tanking and shows them in a skewed vacuum in which he then touts to "prove" his point.

Paladins are perfectly VIABLE as tanks, but they are nowhere near optimal outside of some niche AoE scenarios where engineering would do the trick anyway. They are not, however, on the same level as Warrior or Druid tanks, otherwise we'd see a vastly higher number of people playing paladin successfully and tanking in a 40man raid progression environment.

   Linguine Roadblock
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Tewi wrote:
1 year ago
We already know that judgment stacking isn't going to be possible in classic, as on the beta it's not possible.
On the Flurry Axe Video he talks to a user called "Jonathan Pond" about this.
How do you have 3 wisdoms up simultaneously?
And responds:
Jonathan Pond during vanilla you could stack judge by different ranks. Probably was an exploit or forgotten mechanic known by the community back then. It was reported and seen as legit.

Only thing to wait and see if blizzard is going to keep it or hotfix with legacy releasing. They already mention about fixing known bugs, but which ones we dont know yet.
Being reported and seen as legit is an unsubstantiated claim as is it even being possible (and it is certainly not optimal, having Ranks 1 and 2 on doesn't even double the effect of Rank 3), but what really matters is if it's possible in the beta or not. Any ideas or did your reply already cover differing ranks?

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Linguine wrote:
1 year ago
Psojed wrote:
1 year ago
Btw., A small tidbit I noticed in one of your posts.

Why would a pally use limited invulnerability potion? Dude, we have two bubbles with exactly the same effect. /facepalm
It was not clear to me if Blessing of Protection and Divine Shield are aggro wipes or temporary aggro redirections. I tried the comments on https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=10278 ... n#comments but it's just everyone asking the same thing. However a comment on https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=1020/ ... d#comments does claim it is an aggro wipe.

On the post for https://classic.wowhead.com/item=3387/l ... n#comments "devindred" says:
Note that the aggro reduction is 100% for the duration of the invulnerability buff, but you regain your aggro immediately after the buff fades. It acts like Fade and not Vanish.

This is still quite useful as it gives the tank a nice window to regain aggro over the mob/boss.
Therefore it is uncertain to me if Blessing of Protection is as good as Limited Invulnerability (things are looking quite bad for Divine Shield), but Limited Invulnerability is solid.
First you have no idea about how Paladin Abilities work , then you talk about Paladins as an Expert...

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Westfall
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Linguine wrote:
1 year ago
It was not clear to me if Blessing of Protection and Divine Shield are aggro wipes or temporary aggro redirections. I tried the comments on https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=10278 ... n#comments but it's just everyone asking the same thing. However a comment on https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=1020/ ... d#comments does claim it is an aggro wipe.

On the post for https://classic.wowhead.com/item=3387/l ... n#comments "devindred" says:
Note that the aggro reduction is 100% for the duration of the invulnerability buff, but you regain your aggro immediately after the buff fades. It acts like Fade and not Vanish.

This is still quite useful as it gives the tank a nice window to regain aggro over the mob/boss.
Therefore it is uncertain to me if Blessing of Protection is as good as Limited Invulnerability (things are looking quite bad for Divine Shield), but Limited Invulnerability is solid.
Well the most upvoted comment on that Divine shield link says "Lets say you get feared, or stunned, just use Divine Shield, then immediately cancel the spell by right clicking it and resume aggro. Not bad." If they wiped aggro, he wouldn't be able to do that :)

I can confirm that both bubbles work the same way as the potion. They temporarily remove all your threat and threat comes back when the duration ends. So basically all Paladins have a 3-5min CD ability that functions as a Limited Invulnerability pot and can use it on anyone from the raid.
You can also use Divine Shield to kite mobs between tank and 2nd in threat for up to 12 seconds thanks to this :mrgreen:

Linguine wrote:
1 year ago
We have no idea who the tank was for the content that they cleared. They could have had a different tank, or the guild was formed after AQ started and people had all been from different guilds. Members could have been pugging MC, ZG, AQ20, and BWL for gear.
Dude, it doesn't matter.
Tankadin spec isn't built around collecting raid gear before you start tanking OR around collecting raid gear for your raid people before you start actually doing your job. I'm saying, you don't require a certain threshold of DPS or HPS from the raid to be able to tank raids. Tankadin was here long before duki started playing one. If you really played one back then as you wrote in your post, then you should know this. I also speak here from my own experience with Tankadin, not just from watching some of killerduki's videos. And I believe this should be obvious from just thinking about tanking in general:

Tanking is about trying to focus all damage taken into a chosen person who can avoid or reduce a vast amount of the incoming damage. In theory, anyone can tank as long as the healers can keep up the healing. But a caster won't be dodging, parrying or blocking any damage. Warriors, Paladins, Druids, Shamans, Rogues and Hunters are more suited for this job than the caster classes. Out of these, Hunters, Rogues and Druids can only Dodge and Parry, but cannot Block and cannot stack Defense up to def cap.

Rogues and Hunters can temporarily reach very high levels of avoidance, so in theory they could tank some bosses, but not all of them and kill speed is key, so they are ranked last.
Shamans can Dodge, Parry and Block, but also cannot stack Defense up to def cap (correct me if I'm wrong here). I have yet to see a Shaman tanking a raid boss, but I guess they do it less effectively than a Druid due to Mail armor and no inherent boosts to armor and HP.
Druids compensate their lack of Defense with huge inherent armor and HP boost, which in turn allows them to overcome their shortcomings and tank most bosses, if not all of them.
Warriors and Paladins are the only two classes that can Dodge, Parry, Block, reach avoidance cap AND reach def cap, while also wearing Plate armor and having inherent armor and avoidance boosts from talents.
Paladin comes second and Warrior comes first place, due to his inherent 10% overall damage reduction from def stance.

   killerduki
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Linguine wrote:
1 year ago
Psojed wrote:
1 year ago
Wearing raid gear only implies that his gear is not pre-raid and that his guild works, since they can actually clear content.
We have no idea who the tank was for the content that they cleared. They could have had a different tank, or the guild was formed after AQ started and people had all been from different guilds. Members could have been pugging MC, ZG, AQ20, and BWL for gear.
Psojed wrote:
1 year ago
can be proven wrong by watching his vids without the gear.
I have a very long post showing that in the videos where he claims to not have gear he actually does. Everything but Thunderfury and gear from raids he could not possibly have on a progression raid.

So there are no videos without gear as far as I know, and taking his word for it after he intentionally mislead me would be foolish. That gear and the gear of his raid is more than going to make up for mana problems on what many consider the easiest raid of vanilla.


@killerduki Unfortunately after all the solid debunking I did on your claim of pre-raid BiS only, I cannot take your videos or claims at face value. Until you do a pre-raid BiS video where you inspect all gear pieces prior to the fight all your claims of pre-raid BiS are suspect. There is no rush and you can do this on the release of Classic, which is ideal because then there will also not be a question about how much gear your guild may possess in that short timeframe. (To do one now would heavily imply your raid has the exact same gear AQ+.)

killerduki wrote:
1 year ago
And unfortunately that is their Goal , to have threads like this (who advocate Protection Paladins) locked,deleted or removed.

So anytime there is any thread pop up like this, they will go for it until it goes locked.
I do not appreciate this unfounded accusation and it is ad hominem attacks (implied or outright) like this that is why Teebs is threatening to lock the thread.

My goal in participating in this thread is to give fair warning to prospective players of the potential realities they will face if they try to roll a Protection Paladin. If that is truly their goal they may do it, and I would certainly not stop you from doing it as you clearly love it. However, if someone had warned me back in Vanilla, I would have never rolled what I did and I would have been happier for it.
We have no idea who the tank was for the content that they cleared. They could have had a different tank, or the guild was formed after AQ started and people had all been from different guilds. Members could have been pugging MC, ZG, AQ20, and BWL for gear.
Yeah sure, you have no idea who the Tank was for the content we cleared, regardless of the fact that i was Guild Leader in my own Guild and been Raid Leading , Guild Leading and Main Tanking!

The Guild was formed during Nostalrius period , which mean Nostalrius didn't have AQ released yet and yet you claim stuffs you have no fucking clue about .
I have a very long post showing that in the videos where he claims to not have gear he actually does. Everything but Thunderfury and gear from raids he could not possibly have on a progression raid.

So there are no videos without gear as far as I know, and taking his word for it after he intentionally mislead me would be foolish. That gear and the gear of his raid is more than going to make up for mana problems on what many consider the easiest raid of vanilla.


killerduki Unfortunately after all the solid debunking I did on your claim of pre-raid BiS only, I cannot take your videos or claims at face value. Until you do a pre-raid BiS video where you inspect all gear pieces prior to the fight all your claims of pre-raid BiS are suspect. There is no rush and you can do this on the release of Classic, which is ideal because then there will also not be a question about how much gear your guild may possess in that short timeframe. (To do one now would heavily imply your raid has the exact same gear AQ+.)


And this is what you are demanding , to show you my current gear for Progression , where only difference was Weapon which i bough from Auction House (Flurry Axe).

Debunked you now , because i see you are here only to cherry pick tiny stuffs and shit on Paladins only!

The other VIdeo where it shows my gear was "After these Videos was recorded" , you can see dates when the Videos was uploaded on Youtube as evidence even!

Its not a skyrocking science to explain that, but certainly you will pretend like it is.

ZG and MC has been progressing together as Guild , which later we went to AQ20 only , but that's it, we didn't do AQ20 before we cleared MC with me being as Main Tank , for the main fact that AQ20 didn't release during that period, but during Progression it did release.

/Wisdom is Priority
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/Skill is Life
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