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I love making controversial posts, but this is nutty. Hahahaha. Are you one of @teebling's friends...?

   Selexin aeh
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No, not possible. They’d never think of such a cool username/avatar combination :smile:

Welcome @RedridgeGnoll!

   Selexin aeh
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@RedridgeGnoll I think the problem you have here is not the argument of vertical vs horizontal, it's changes vs no changes. I don't think you need to add anymore content regardless of what axis it falls on. You've got YEARS of content and replayability in Classic WoW, and changing it represents a huge risk for blizzard. There is already a massive demand for Classic TBC and less so Classic WotLK. Doing anything different or new presents way more investment and way more risk, as outlined by @Stfuppercut.

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Selexin wrote:
3 months ago
RedridgeGnoll wrote:
3 months ago
How will Classic WoW grow and stay relevant without new content then?
It' a recreation of a 15 year old game, there is no 'staying relevant'. The only growing that Classic WoW will do, is via the community and the player based events and interactions. There entire purpose for Classic is to simply recreate and immortalize the Vanilla WoW time.
When people start feeling bored because they've experienced everything, they'll be given the chance to transfer to a TBC server. I'll bet on it.

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teebling wrote:
3 months ago
No, not possible. They’d never think of such a cool username/avatar combination :smile:

Welcome @RedridgeGnoll!
You also said, your friends of now clue about the game or?

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Twitch Channel, feel free to take a look :)!
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I think that whenever something like this is discussed it is important to keep in mind that the devs would have to "maintain the spirit of Classic." Which is no trivial matter to begin with; inventing additional content is easy in comparison.

It should be a discussion on what is "the spirit of Classic." Perhaps a distillation of what the population wants from the game into a core set of principles/tenants for future content development

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Just preserve it.

If anything create a TBC server and allow people to bring their 60 over to continue the journey!

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One of the problems of releasing new content after vanilla is that (and I think everyone here agrees) it should not compromise old content. One of the bad design decisions in BC that impacted on vanilla was that everything had to be bigger because of ... no particular reason:
- Outland was physically bigger: zones were considerable bigger than vanilla ones but they comparatively weren't filled with more content; your epic mount no longer feels fast enough to travel, you had to fly; traveling longer distances made summoning stones a necessity and leaving the world a lot emptier.
- Everything cost a lot more and everyone gives you a lot more gold for no reason: Repairs and consumables got a lot more expensive, the new epic mount went from 1000g to 5000g; on the other hand quest rewards and mobs gave a lot more of gold.
- Items stat's were also higher for no reason in particular. A green in Hellfire peninsula could replace an epic from vanilla. Having Atiesh, Greatstaff of the Guardian replaced at level 70 is just plain ridiculous.

BC was fun, and it will be fun to relive it. But is not free of flaws. Classic + doesn't need to create new content from scratch, maybe they can aim to fix BC flaws.

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@daisyKutter Gnoll is proposing new content with no loot upgrades better than Naxx, so that wouldn’t be the issue.

I’m against Classic+ regardless. Not many people even got to see Naxx and most guilds died in BWL so the perceived ‘shortage of content’ argument doesn’t really play out.

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They should just add the barber shop after Naxx and call it a day. Maybe the dance studio as well.

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daisyKutter wrote:
3 months ago
One of the problems of releasing new content after vanilla is that (and I think everyone here agrees) it should not compromise old content. One of the bad design decisions in BC that impacted on vanilla was that everything had to be bigger because of ... no particular reason:
- Outland was physically bigger: zones were considerable bigger than vanilla ones but they comparatively weren't filled with more content; your epic mount no longer feels fast enough to travel, you had to fly; traveling longer distances made summoning stones a necessity and leaving the world a lot emptier.
- Everything cost a lot more and everyone gives you a lot more gold for no reason: Repairs and consumables got a lot more expensive, the new epic mount went from 1000g to 5000g; on the other hand quest rewards and mobs gave a lot more of gold.
- Items stat's were also higher for no reason in particular. A green in Hellfire peninsula could replace an epic from vanilla. Having Atiesh, Greatstaff of the Guardian replaced at level 70 is just plain ridiculous.

BC was fun, and it will be fun to relive it. But is not free of flaws. Classic + doesn't need to create new content from scratch, maybe they can aim to fix BC flaws.
I know TBC has an audience, and Blizzard might go that route. I do think there is a better alternative. TBC practically reduced the world from 40 zones to 7. On top of that you can just fly over those 7 zones. You can make an argument that TBC has more in common with Retail than it does with Classic WoW. They could keep the level cap at 60, and then change the level ranges of Outland Zones. Turn zones like Zangarmarsh into a level 20 to 30 zone. Nagrand into 40 to 45 zone etc.. This way you have players at all level ranges passing back and forth betwern Azeroth and Outland. Outland would just be another area, not simply the definitive endgame area. They would have to remove mechanics such as flying, dungeon difficulty, arena etc.. as well. The purpose of Outland would be to offer horizontal leveling zones, dungeons, and raids. Shattrah would not be the central city anymore. This is a less intensive solution than just creating all new content. The issue is that there are TBC purists who want the #nochanges version. Which is partly why I think creating all new content on Azeroth is preferable.

I think it is good that Naxxramas was so inaccessible. The solution wasn't to keep adding harder raids with higher tiers of gear, but have more entry-level and mid tier raids similar to MC/BWL. You want to keep the more casual players engaged, not cater to the hardcore minority that had AQ and Naxxramas on farm. Classic could have benefited from more endgame dungeons as well. The challenge is adding new PvE content that players are incentivized to complete. The rewards need to be enticing, while at the same time not rendering prior PvE gear and content worthless.

What horizontal systems would be rewarding enough for the playerbase? If there was a new Scarlet Crusade 40 man raid that dropped Tier 2 gear, a Scarlet Charger mount, new enchanting recipes, and Epic quest materials, would that be enough of an incentive for players? It is easier to add horizontal content like mounts, trinkets, pets etc.. The difficulty is adding new gear that doesn't just boost your attributes in a linear fashion. Having itemization that enables more ways to customize your abilities and talents might be part of the solution.

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Personally, I'm not a fan of TBC and I wouldn't want Blizzard pushing past Classic. Things like gearing, flying mounts, gold drops, etc all served to undermine Classic and all the achievements you made. Horizontal gearing on par with Naxx or even a little above doesn't nullify Classic quite like the Helboar Carving Blade did.

As for the content thing, I agree that Classic had plenty to do - it 100% did, it had content for years. But at the end of the day, you're intending on Classic being around for years to come with a player base that now knows the content and requirements inside and out. Each tier of content is going to be completed within the month by high-end professional guild and probably within 3 or 4 months for any regular guild. Once you've gotten Naxx out of the way what then? Blizz isn't going to let a game rot and die for no reason especially not something they've invested this much time and resources into.

I think discussing this sort of topic is fine and eventually needed. Personally I prefer a Classic+ approach because it retains the game we've been asking for for years, but provides somehting additional to do once you've cleared all the main stuff. I think things like I suggested (Grim Batol Level 40) goes a long way into providing meaningful and interesting content that doesn't mess with the core game or the end-game experience. I would happily level up a new character to explore and see what it's about or sit nearby and camp on my 60 for extra lulz.

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Solveig wrote:
3 months ago
Personally, I'm not a fan of TBC and I wouldn't want Blizzard pushing past Classic. Things like gearing, flying mounts, gold drops, etc all served to undermine Classic and all the achievements you made. Horizontal gearing on par with Naxx or even a little above doesn't nullify Classic quite like the Helboar Carving Blade did.
Then dont play BC. Surely when they make Classic BC, you don't anticipate that ALL Classic servers will be forced into BC do you? That would be silly. They will make choices to retain subs. Forcing Classic vanilla players into BC, will lose them a lot of subs.

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I for one am fully on board with post-Naxx content. I do think that Karazhan should be introduced Post-Naxx, but sit somewhere around the AQ40 level.

I also wish they opened up Hyjal as a pure PvP zone with daily PvP quests. Some quests would be Hyjal exclusive each day. Other quests would take you to certain zones each day. Horde and alliance would have similar quests in the same zones to ensure world PvP was taking place. You would obviously earn honor for completing said quests. I know Blizzard has done things like this in the past, and to some degree of success. I also think a Hyjal set of PvP gear should be obtainable that is better than the blue PvP honor set, but not as good as the epic set. The HW/GM grind will still be a thing and it should still be rare and hard af, even with Hyjal questing.

List of things I would like to see that would not disrupt the authenticity and integrity of vanilla wow.
- Karazhan (20 man/AQ40 difficulty)
- Mount Hyjal PvP zone
- AV revamp
- Ashara Battleground (30v30?)
- Goblins & Worgen (fight me)
- Flying Mounts that ONLY change the aesthetics of your FP mount.
- Heroic Dungeons (Fight me. They were great in TBC.)
- Dire Maul should be a raid. It always should have been a raid. 20 man raid, obvs.
- Open up a second part to Gnomeregon turning it into a massive BRD like mega-dungeon. Have it end in Old Ironforge and you exiting the throne room.
- Open up the Stormwind Harbor
- Make a Bloodsail Buccaneer island dungeon for STV level players.
- More timed dungeon run events like UD Strat (som of my best memories pre-raids!)

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couchatron wrote:
3 months ago
I for one am fully on board with post-Naxx content. I do think that Karazhan should be introduced Post-Naxx, but sit somewhere around the AQ40 level.

I also wish they opened up Hyjal as a pure PvP zone with daily PvP quests. Some quests would be Hyjal exclusive each day. Other quests would take you to certain zones each day. Horde and alliance would have similar quests in the same zones to ensure world PvP was taking place. You would obviously earn honor for completing said quests. I know Blizzard has done things like this in the past, and to some degree of success. I also think a Hyjal set of PvP gear should be obtainable that is better than the blue PvP honor set, but not as good as the epic set. The HW/GM grind will still be a thing and it should still be rare and hard af, even with Hyjal questing.

List of things I would like to see that would not disrupt the authenticity and integrity of vanilla wow.
- Karazhan (20 man/AQ40 difficulty)
- Mount Hyjal PvP zone
- AV revamp
- Ashara Battleground (30v30?)
- Goblins & Worgen (fight me)
- Flying Mounts that ONLY change the aesthetics of your FP mount.
- Heroic Dungeons (Fight me. They were great in TBC.)
- Dire Maul should be a raid. It always should have been a raid. 20 man raid, obvs.
- Open up a second part to Gnomeregon turning it into a massive BRD like mega-dungeon. Have it end in Old Ironforge and you exiting the throne room.
- Open up the Stormwind Harbor
- Make a Bloodsail Buccaneer island dungeon for STV level players.
- More timed dungeon run events like UD Strat (som of my best memories pre-raids!)
I agree with so much of what you said. Goblins and Worgens, Lost Isles, Gilneas totally belong in Classic. Mount Hyjal basically was a PvP zone during the Cataclysm beta. Reintroducing it could work. Bringing back Karazhan makes sense, especially since the entrance is in the old world. Instead of Heroic Dungeons, there should be level 60 dungeons that are very difficult. More so than even the Cataclysm Heroics were at launch. Having more leveling content and quests in the current zones would also help a lot.

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RedridgeGnoll wrote:
3 months ago
couchatron wrote:
3 months ago
I for one am fully on board with post-Naxx content. I do think that Karazhan should be introduced Post-Naxx, but sit somewhere around the AQ40 level.

I also wish they opened up Hyjal as a pure PvP zone with daily PvP quests. Some quests would be Hyjal exclusive each day. Other quests would take you to certain zones each day. Horde and alliance would have similar quests in the same zones to ensure world PvP was taking place. You would obviously earn honor for completing said quests. I know Blizzard has done things like this in the past, and to some degree of success. I also think a Hyjal set of PvP gear should be obtainable that is better than the blue PvP honor set, but not as good as the epic set. The HW/GM grind will still be a thing and it should still be rare and hard af, even with Hyjal questing.

List of things I would like to see that would not disrupt the authenticity and integrity of vanilla wow.
- Karazhan (20 man/AQ40 difficulty)
- Mount Hyjal PvP zone
- AV revamp
- Ashara Battleground (30v30?)
- Goblins & Worgen (fight me)
- Flying Mounts that ONLY change the aesthetics of your FP mount.
- Heroic Dungeons (Fight me. They were great in TBC.)
- Dire Maul should be a raid. It always should have been a raid. 20 man raid, obvs.
- Open up a second part to Gnomeregon turning it into a massive BRD like mega-dungeon. Have it end in Old Ironforge and you exiting the throne room.
- Open up the Stormwind Harbor
- Make a Bloodsail Buccaneer island dungeon for STV level players.
- More timed dungeon run events like UD Strat (som of my best memories pre-raids!)
I agree with so much of what you said. Goblins and Worgens, Lost Isles, Gilneas totally belong in Classic. Mount Hyjal basically was a PvP zone during the Cataclysm beta. Reintroducing it could work. Bringing back Karazhan makes sense, especially since the entrance is in the old world. Instead of Heroic Dungeons, there should be level 60 dungeons that are very difficult. More so than even the Cataclysm Heroics were at launch. Having more leveling content and quests in the current zones would also help a lot.
The importance of heroics is to ensure non-raiding players still have plenty of content to keep the, busy. I do agree that they need to be pretty damn difficult. I would also say that they should be unlocked in a ladder or tree system. Everyone starts with the same heroic, which unlocks a choic of two new heroics. You chose one to unlock. Once you’ve beaten that one, you get the choice of the previously unchosen heroic or a new one, etc. etc.

Maybe there are certain achievements (don’t kill me) that you have to complete to unlock other heroics. I.e. time trials, boss skipping, Undying runs, etc.

There is obviously going to come a time where some non-raiders have completed everything. This is inevitable.

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couchatron wrote:
3 months ago
RedridgeGnoll wrote:
3 months ago
couchatron wrote:
3 months ago
I for one am fully on board with post-Naxx content. I do think that Karazhan should be introduced Post-Naxx, but sit somewhere around the AQ40 level.

I also wish they opened up Hyjal as a pure PvP zone with daily PvP quests. Some quests would be Hyjal exclusive each day. Other quests would take you to certain zones each day. Horde and alliance would have similar quests in the same zones to ensure world PvP was taking place. You would obviously earn honor for completing said quests. I know Blizzard has done things like this in the past, and to some degree of success. I also think a Hyjal set of PvP gear should be obtainable that is better than the blue PvP honor set, but not as good as the epic set. The HW/GM grind will still be a thing and it should still be rare and hard af, even with Hyjal questing.

List of things I would like to see that would not disrupt the authenticity and integrity of vanilla wow.
- Karazhan (20 man/AQ40 difficulty)
- Mount Hyjal PvP zone
- AV revamp
- Ashara Battleground (30v30?)
- Goblins & Worgen (fight me)
- Flying Mounts that ONLY change the aesthetics of your FP mount.
- Heroic Dungeons (Fight me. They were great in TBC.)
- Dire Maul should be a raid. It always should have been a raid. 20 man raid, obvs.
- Open up a second part to Gnomeregon turning it into a massive BRD like mega-dungeon. Have it end in Old Ironforge and you exiting the throne room.
- Open up the Stormwind Harbor
- Make a Bloodsail Buccaneer island dungeon for STV level players.
- More timed dungeon run events like UD Strat (som of my best memories pre-raids!)
I agree with so much of what you said. Goblins and Worgens, Lost Isles, Gilneas totally belong in Classic. Mount Hyjal basically was a PvP zone during the Cataclysm beta. Reintroducing it could work. Bringing back Karazhan makes sense, especially since the entrance is in the old world. Instead of Heroic Dungeons, there should be level 60 dungeons that are very difficult. More so than even the Cataclysm Heroics were at launch. Having more leveling content and quests in the current zones would also help a lot.
The importance of heroics is to ensure non-raiding players still have plenty of content to keep the, busy. I do agree that they need to be pretty damn difficult. I would also say that they should be unlocked in a ladder or tree system. Everyone starts with the same heroic, which unlocks a choic of two new heroics. You chose one to unlock. Once you’ve beaten that one, you get the choice of the previously unchosen heroic or a new one, etc. etc.

Maybe there are certain achievements (don’t kill me) that you have to complete to unlock other heroics. I.e. time trials, boss skipping, Undying runs, etc.

There is obviously going to come a time where some non-raiders have completed everything. This is inevitable.
I don't see the point of heroics. I think it breaks immersion and makes no sense in terms of the lore/world. I do think there should be high end 5 man dungeons with mechanics as challenging as Naxxramas. Why not just have level 60 dungeons instead of 2 versions of the same dungeon? There was definitely a lack of challenging dungeon content at level 60 in classic.

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Because some lower level dungeons deserve more attention than they get while leveling. We can agree to disagree on this and that’s totally okay.

I’m also 100% for new dungeons as well.

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couchatron wrote:
3 months ago
Because some lower level dungeons deserve more attention than they get while leveling. We can agree to disagree on this and that’s totally okay.

I’m also 100% for new dungeons as well.
Oh believe me. I ran Heroic SFK and Deadmines like a bajillion times in Cataclysm.

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RedridgeGnoll wrote:
3 months ago
Good point. I meant 1 year after launch. The 2nd year of Classic is AQ, Naxx, dishonorable kills, weather effects. It is when many players get burned out.
People getting burnt out (in general) is due to 1-2 reasons only. They play too much, or play in a way the game was not designed for.

When they were creating WoW, they didn't think "How can we make this appealing to people who have absolutely no life at all". I played for the entire vanilla period since first day it released, back then I played at least 3-5hrs a day. And not ONCE did I ever find myself in a situation where I had nothing to do or craved more.

Most hardcore raiders (That I knew personally) only raided exclusively once the raid group were good enough to farm the raids. Most people were offline except for when it was time for raids. They were the ONLY ones I ever experienced whining about that there is not enough content. That's because they are not playing the game as it was designed. It's like playing Battlefield and ONLY flying planes, then whine about that you have to wait a long time to spawn in a plane since there are only 1-2 planes per 32 player side.

My point being:
If you want a game to last long for yourself, play it to the fullest. Explore everything there is to do. Fishing, Professions, Raids, Dungeons, Gold Making, PvP and most importantly Community. And if you find yourself having maxed and explored all of above within a year (You play too much in my personal experience or you half ass most things) then make an alt or make a new "main".

EDIT: Also, adding new content is a big NO NO. There is a reason why they are relaunching Classic, they changed too much. If Blizzard would start making new content for Vanilla, it would end up being like Michael Scott from The Office. They get too excited and make content that changes WAY too much and it will divide the community.

We asked for Classic WoW, and we got it. Now don't ask for change or more content, it will divide players and ultimately ruin the game once again. I don't want to wait another 14 years for them to relaunch Classic a second time. I would be well on my way into my 50s by then.

   Selexin Serray
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As @Shamanigans was alluding to, I would think Blizz aren't going to cater to the top 5% no lifers, at the detriment of the rest of the playerbase. People may join Classic after 2 years, should they miss out on experiencing Classic WoW and be forced into TBC/Classic+ - or should they be able to join knowing that this is a true preservation of Vanilla WoW, available in perpetuity? This a way for Blizzard to basically put Vanilla in a glass box, like a time capsule for everyone to go back and enjoy for what is was not what it could be.

Like I've said before, having a separate off-shoot server with either Classic+ or Classic TBC or something else entirely, is up to Blizzard and their risk/reward strategy. As long as it is a separate project that does not impact Classic WoW, I see no issues.

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Shamanigans wrote:
3 months ago
RedridgeGnoll wrote:
3 months ago
Good point. I meant 1 year after launch. The 2nd year of Classic is AQ, Naxx, dishonorable kills, weather effects. It is when many players get burned out.
People getting burnt out (in general) is due to 1-2 reasons only. They play too much, or play in a way the game was not designed for.

When they were creating WoW, they didn't think "How can we make this appealing to people who have absolutely no life at all". I played for the entire vanilla period since first day it released, back then I played at least 3-5hrs a day. And not ONCE did I ever find myself in a situation where I had nothing to do or craved more.

Most hardcore raiders (That I knew personally) only raided exclusively once the raid group were good enough to farm the raids. Most people were offline except for when it was time for raids. They were the ONLY ones I ever experienced whining about that there is not enough content. That's because they are not playing the game as it was designed. It's like playing Battlefield and ONLY flying planes, then whine about that you have to wait a long time to spawn in a plane since there are only 1-2 planes per 32 player side.

My point being:
If you want a game to last long for yourself, play it to the fullest. Explore everything there is to do. Fishing, Professions, Raids, Dungeons, Gold Making, PvP and most importantly Community. And if you find yourself having maxed and explored all of above within a year (You play too much in my personal experience or you half ass most things) then make an alt or make a new "main".

EDIT: Also, adding new content is a big NO NO. There is a reason why they are relaunching Classic, they changed too much. If Blizzard would start making new content for Vanilla, it would end up being like Michael Scott from The Office. They get too excited and make content that changes WAY too much and it will divide the community.

We asked for Classic WoW, and we got it. Now don't ask for change or more content, it will divide players and ultimately ruin the game once again. I don't want to wait another 14 years for them to relaunch Classic a second time. I would be well on my way into my 50s by then.
One of the issues with the second half of Classic WoW and even TBC was the over emphasis on raiding. Classic WoW had more content than any expansion pack, and fortunately many players at the time were new to the genre so they never ran out of content.I will never really understand why Blizzard dedicated so many resources even in Vanilla to a mechanic that so few players actively participated in. AQ and Naxx were cleared by such a small % of players, and then introduced gear which was overtuned.

Of course, I think Classic WoW will be a success. However, I think Blizzard has a special opportunity to rewrite history and grow Classic WoW to much higher subscription levels than retail. This will likely only happen if content is added to Classic WoW. The key is to find out what makes Classic WoW so replayable 15 years later. I do think that content can be added to the game which will give it longevity and not compromise the original design. The Burning Crusade is basically a separate MMO. It has so little in common with Classic WoW. It probably has more in common with Battle for Azeroth, which is shocking considering how long ago it was developed.

I speak from a fairly unique perspective in that I was very active testing Classic WoW while it was in development. I was to some extent involved in the process through the testing and feedback I provided.. There are so many potential mechanics and systems that could be added to Classic WoW that have nothing to do with high-end raiding. That is a lesser aspect of the game anyway. There are many shortcomings with Classic WoW, ones which I argued over even before TBC launched. I totally understand the fear of making changes to Classic WoW. I was always very resentful of The Burning Crusade and it was the first Blizzard game I never bought. Ideally, they keep Classic servers, and then eventually add Classic+ servers.

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RedridgeGnoll wrote:
3 months ago
Ideally, they keep Classic servers, and then eventually add Classic+ servers.
I think you should have started with this line, because it is a little more feasible and reasonable, although I still have big doubts whether blizzard would go for it.

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RedridgeGnoll wrote:
3 months ago
How will Classic WoW grow and stay relevant without new content then?
In the way it has been relevant till now, since people continued playing on private servers :-)

   Shamanigans teebling
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Stfuppercut wrote:
3 months ago
Solveig wrote:
3 months ago
Personally, I'm not a fan of TBC and I wouldn't want Blizzard pushing past Classic. Things like gearing, flying mounts, gold drops, etc all served to undermine Classic and all the achievements you made. Horizontal gearing on par with Naxx or even a little above doesn't nullify Classic quite like the Helboar Carving Blade did.
Then dont play BC. Surely when they make Classic BC, you don't anticipate that ALL Classic servers will be forced into BC do you? That would be silly. They will make choices to retain subs. Forcing Classic vanilla players into BC, will lose them a lot of subs.
There's an implication here that Blizzard won't push players into TBC. I don't trust them enough not to do that. If they bring out TBC, I doubt they would want to fracture their playerbase into 3 portions. Splitting the playerbase between BFA and Classic was a big enough deal as is.

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