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Selexin wrote:
1 year ago
RedridgeGnoll wrote:
1 year ago
Classic WoW is flawed in some regard, but I think it still appeals to players who are new to the genre.
I think you miss the biggest point here, Classic WoW is born out of the fact that millions of players were searching out and playing illegally run private servers. On those servers, the successful ones were the ones that were able to best recreate the Vanilla WoW gameplay and timeline as closely as possible to the original. People don't want a 'custom' server with additions and changes and extra content. They wanted Vanilla WoW just as it was, with flaws and problems and grinding. It is a different type of game that doesn't exist anymore, and people want it back.

I don't know if they will do Classic BC/WotLK, possibly - but for now the whole intention of this was to capitalize on the already existing desire for people to play a Blizzlike Vanilla Server, over a decade after it disappeared.
Yes, I understand that. I am thoroughly convinced however, that TBC and WOTLK are upheld mostly by nostalgia. Features like arena, small capital cities, being stuck on a single continent, flying mounts, heroic modes defined TBC and WOTLK. These same features continue to define WoW in BFA as well. Classic is different. That is why the demand for Classic WoW is much higher in the private server scene. Classic WoW as you stated represents a type of game that no longer exists today.

If Blizzard can successfully add content that enhances the Classic WoW experience, then why why not do it? There will be a lot of players who will demand more content. They will want new mounts, gear, recipes to collect etc.. The original post is an idea about how that can be achieved without adding the features of TBC which rendered WoW unrecognizable.

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RedridgeGnoll wrote:
1 year ago
There will be a lot of players who will demand more content. They will want new mounts, gear, recipes to collect etc.
I think this is the retail attitude which has been slowly killing WoW - I don't really want people demanding content for Classic, that is not the point of Classic at all.

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Selexin wrote:
1 year ago
RedridgeGnoll wrote:
1 year ago
There will be a lot of players who will demand more content. They will want new mounts, gear, recipes to collect etc.
I think this is the retail attitude which has been slowly killing WoW - I don't really want people demanding content for Classic, that is not the point of Classic at all.
That was the reality back in 2005/2006. Many players demanded more content. That is why Blizzard set out to make The Burning Crusade. Classic WoW won't keep growing unless they keep adding content. That is just the nature of gaming. The OP offers an alternate path than the one which led us to TBC.

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Something that we talk a lot about on the Classic OCE Discord. Personally I like the idea of horizontal content, but I don't think at any point should it entirely invalidate any of the content that has come before it, further I think the additional content should supplement what's already there. A couple ideas I have concepted in my head would be the following:

Dragon Isles
A questing zone for veteran and new level 60 players. Basically a level 60 questing zone with a reputation (maybe a rep mount at exalted? - singular, one mount and with a sizeable gold cost). Quest rewards can include some 'catch up gear' that is on par with BWL gear. This helps bring new players up a bit quicker considering this would be post Naxx. I think having a new area to explore with a rep grind for a mount is enough to entice a veteran player to hang out, whereas it entices new players through gold and gear.

Grim Batol/Surrounding Area
I know Twilight highlands is a thing in Cata, and I'm not asking for that. I think Grim Batol would be an interesting location for a level 40-44 questing/levelling hub for both Horde and Alliance. It brings more foot traffic from both sides into the Wetlands as well as providing some level of congruency with Hillsbrad/Arathi Highlands. Additionally it's an area that was forgotten during Vanilla and it would be nice to give that area meaning.

I see a lot of people throwing around Classic+ and the ilk and while I think that of itself is fine, I just worry that people have poor understanding of game design which can lead to poor decisions when coupled with Blizzards current inability to understand meaningful game choices/mechanics/systems. If a voting system came in, I think we'd just end up exactly where we are currently unless blizzard is able to better design things and then curate the polls. IE; if the decision was "We have made this content, it fits in with this, this and this - do you want it? Yes or No?" instead of "We're looking at making this content or this content, which would you like" then maybe we could come to a well rounded product.


Also as a flipside to all of the above, and after reading some of the other comments. I think Classic+ is a contentious topic alongside further expansions. It puts us in the same situation as we were before - not having access to the game everyone remembers and loves. As soon as you go TBC or Wrath, you've lost classic so what do you do if that's what you want to play? I think Classic+ is probably the fairest middle ground, while not entirely being a 100% solution. You retain the base game, but add some additional content and frills here and there to keep it fresh for new and old players. At the end of the day, content does run out and Blizzard is here to make money - so it'll be interesting to see how they go about all of this.

/wall of text

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Solveig wrote:
1 year ago
Something that we talk a lot about on the Classic OCE Discord. Personally I like the idea of horizontal content, but I don't think at any point should it entirely invalidate any of the content that has come before it, further I think the additional content should supplement what's already there. A couple ideas I have concepted in my head would be the following:

Dragon Isles
A questing zone for veteran and new level 60 players. Basically a level 60 questing zone with a reputation (maybe a rep mount at exalted? - singular, one mount and with a sizeable gold cost). Quest rewards can include some 'catch up gear' that is on par with BWL gear. This helps bring new players up a bit quicker considering this would be post Naxx. I think having a new area to explore with a rep grind for a mount is enough to entice a veteran player to hang out, whereas it entices new players through gold and gear.

Grim Batol/Surrounding Area
I know Twilight highlands is a thing in Cata, and I'm not asking for that. I think Grim Batol would be an interesting location for a level 40-44 questing/levelling hub for both Horde and Alliance. It brings more foot traffic from both sides into the Wetlands as well as providing some level of congruency with Hillsbrad/Arathi Highlands. Additionally it's an area that was forgotten during Vanilla and it would be nice to give that area meaning.

I see a lot of people throwing around Classic+ and the ilk and while I think that of itself is fine, I just worry that people have poor understanding of game design which can lead to poor decisions when coupled with Blizzards current inability to understand meaningful game choices/mechanics/systems. If a voting system came in, I think we'd just end up exactly where we are currently unless blizzard is able to better design things and then curate the polls. IE; if the decision was "We have made this content, it fits in with this, this and this - do you want it? Yes or No?" instead of "We're looking at making this content or this content, which would you like" then maybe we could come to a well rounded product.


Also as a flipside to all of the above, and after reading some of the other comments. I think Classic+ is a contentious topic alongside further expansions. It puts us in the same situation as we were before - not having access to the game everyone remembers and loves. As soon as you go TBC or Wrath, you've lost classic so what do you do if that's what you want to play? I think Classic+ is probably the fairest middle ground, while not entirely being a 100% solution. You retain the base game, but add some additional content and frills here and there to keep it fresh for new and old players. At the end of the day, content does run out and Blizzard is here to make money - so it'll be interesting to see how they go about all of this.

/wall of text
Those concepts of including areas like Grim Batol, Dragon Isles would be cool. New zones, dungeons, raids that are added should be connected and inside the Old World. I do not think welfare epics should be added as a catch up mechanic however. Having high end gear attainable through an endgame quest chain should be welcomed. Set Naxxramas gear at the highest end, then add more gear that falls within T1, T2, T3. Use different set bonuses or even new attributes to distinguish the sets. Not only would players be able to look different, but also customize their builds/playstyles through set bonuses on new gear.

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RedridgeGnoll wrote:
1 year ago
Set Naxxramas gear at the highest end, then add more gear that falls within T1, T2, T3. Use different set bonuses or even new attributes to distinguish the sets. Not only would players be able to look different, but also customize their builds/playstyles through set bonuses on new gear.
But... then it isn't Classic/Vanilla anymore, what you are proposing is Classic+ by definition. I think people may be confused as to why Blizzard are creating Classic WoW. It's not to start again and build from there, if they wanted to do that they would have called it WoW 2 (Which honestly isn't a bad idea, it's just not the purpose of Classic WoW). They have made Classic WoW to be a "Faithful restoration of the original World of Warcraft before any expansions". If you go and add content, change/add features, quality of life set bonuses, then you change the very game they are trying to preserve.

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Selexin wrote:
1 year ago
RedridgeGnoll wrote:
1 year ago
Set Naxxramas gear at the highest end, then add more gear that falls within T1, T2, T3. Use different set bonuses or even new attributes to distinguish the sets. Not only would players be able to look different, but also customize their builds/playstyles through set bonuses on new gear.
But... then it isn't Classic/Vanilla anymore, what you are proposing is Classic+ by definition. I think people may be confused as to why Blizzard are creating Classic WoW. It's not to start again and build from there, if they wanted to do that they would have called it WoW 2 (Which honestly isn't a bad idea, it's just not the purpose of Classic WoW). They have made Classic WoW to be a "Faithful restoration of the original World of Warcraft before any expansions". If you go and add content, change/add features, quality of life set bonuses, then you change the very game they are trying to preserve.
I understand that. I am trying to distill what makes Classic WoW so replayable. I offered some suggestions using horizontal scaling that wouldn't hinder the essence of the game. What do you think of having new raid or dungeon gear that offer new set bonuses. I provided an example of how Nightslayer compares to Bloodfang, and how the set bonuses give players initiative to wear either set. One of the best aspects of Classic WoW was how non-linear upgrades were. You could mix and match and even wear lower raid gear without gimping yourself. The expansions basically used the iLvL system where new gear was basically always an improvement. That vertical gear progression is the opposite of what Classic needs.

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@RedridgeGnoll I have answered the vertical/horizontal question probably 3 times already, please feel free to go back through my original responses on this.

I don't like the changes to Tier set bonuses as part of Classic, only a Classic+ off-shoot. I think you could do some really cool and interesting stuff with vanilla WoW re-done, but I don't think it forms part of this 'project' and I don't know if it would actually be as successful as a pure recreation of vanilla. That is purely just a hunch/speculation/conjecture on my part based on the bulk of feedback from other enthusiasts.

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RedridgeGnoll wrote:
1 year ago
as long as Blizzard keeps the spirit of Classic WoW aglow. Below is an outline for expanding Classic WoW using horizontal progression.

Naxxramas gear should remain top end. Adding new raids that increase the tier level beyond 3 creates problematic power creep.
I think these two points sum it up nicely, I'm totally fine with changes so long as A. The community has a say in what is or isn't added and B. All changes are made must be in keeping the key design decisions made in wow classic originally. So a new race is fine, so long as they don't somehow make it that that race has an easier time leveling (racial bonus to experience gained? Terrible suggestion, but it's just an example).

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Selexin wrote:
1 year ago
RedridgeGnoll wrote:
1 year ago
How will Classic WoW grow and stay relevant without new content then?
It' a recreation of a 15 year old game, there is no 'staying relevant'. The only growing that Classic WoW will do, is via the community and the player based events and interactions. There entire purpose for Classic is to simply recreate and immortalize the Vanilla WoW time.
I get this line of thinking, but I think taking old school runescape as an example is the best way to play it, give the community the reins as far as what is changed and when, and the core, dedicated player base always gets what they want.

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RedridgeGnoll wrote:
1 year ago
I understand that. I am trying to distill what makes Classic WoW so replayable. I offered some suggestions using horizontal scaling that wouldn't hinder the essence of the game. What do you think of having new raid or dungeon gear that offer new set bonuses. I provided an example of how Nightslayer compares to Bloodfang, and how the set bonuses give players initiate to wear either set. One of the best aspects of Classic WoW was how non-linear upgrades were. You could mix and match and even wear lower raid gear without gimping yourself. The expansions basically used the iLvL system where new gear was basically always an improvement. That vertical gear progression is the opposite of what Classic needs.
I get what you're trying to do, and I agree with you to a certain extent. Vanilla WoW isn't some magical mistake. The core game philosophies that made vanilla great, can be replicated to continue making great content. Vanilla was a recipe. Additionally, I selfishly want horizontal content. There are two primary concerns I see with this. The upfront investment from Blizzard and the saturation of their market.

1) From a business standpoint, it doesn't make fiscal sense. The community is also crying for BC and WotLK, which can be seen by their prevalence in the private server community. Why did they choose to make vanilla first? Because it likely has the largest following and because it was the first rendition of the game. It only makes sense to continue with the Classic project in BC and WotLK. I personally liked BC and despised WotLK, but a lot of players would disagree with me. This is the point. Each of these games will appeal to a gigantic portion of players. Your version of the original game which will result in some frakenproject that may or may not succeed, but these other recreations are guaranteed successes. Recreating BC and WotLK is pretty simple... Just follow the script. Very minimal development investment, with a huge fan appeal and gigantic profit margins. It just doesn't make fiscal sense to invest in a game that is 15 years old and over saturate your own market while creating a project that may or may not succeed. Why not invest that development into a new MMO that will definitely stimulate more interest in the general community and earn them more of a return?

2) Over saturation. At what point does creating additional versions of the game devalue the brand as a whole. Running Classic in conjunction with retail on a shared sub makes smart business sense. You have two drastically different audiences, with some opportunity for cross over and cross pollination. You stagger your release for each project so that each of them support the development for one another both financially and from a player interest perspective. Content drought in Retail? Drop Burning Crusade Classic. Burning Crusade Classic slowly losing subs? Drop new retail content and so on and so forth. Additional content on one sub will add value to the subscribers. At what point is there too much WoW and at what point do you have too many projects running simultaneously? This question is rhetorical, neither us, nor Blizzard knows the answer empirically and thus there is great risk associated with this pursuit.

Example:
Classic WoW. Classic + with active dev support creating new content. BC Classic. WotLK Classic. Retail running additional content and adding new Xpacs every few years... At a certain point the audience simply cant keep up and stops caring about your product entirely. At a certain point the community becomes too segregated into their individual bubbles and the opportunities for cross pollination are reduced. Each individual group wants their own specialty content and are less interested in the brand as a whole. Your company is also weaker when you thin yourselves out. There are only so many Mark Kern's. With each additional product the company tasks their employees with, they spread their subject-matter-experts out across each project and thin the individual attention and development power that each product will receive.

Could they make some horizontal content? Probably. Will we see it? Only if the market demands it and Blizzards analytics determine it is a safe bet. Will we see boat battles and housing come to Classic? No. Definitely no. These are contentious changes that would cause controversy. They are also high risk investments that dont make fiscal sense. Why gamble at success when you can just capture guaranteed success with a demonstrated formula? They will stick with the recipe if they make horizontal content, they wont make any attempts to reinvent the wheel.

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Stfuppercut wrote:
1 year ago
Over saturation. At what point does creating additional versions of the game devalue the brand as a whole. Running Classic in conjunction with retail on a shared sub makes smart business sense. You have two drastically different audiences, with some opportunity for cross over and cross pollination. You stagger your release for each project so that each of them support the development for one another both financially and from a player interest perspective. Content drought in Retail? Drop Burning Crusade Classic. Burning Crusade Classic slowly losing subs? Drop new retail content and so on and so forth. Additional content on one sub will add value to the subscribers. At what point is there too much WoW and at what point do you have too many projects running simultaneously? This question is rhetorical, neither us, nor Blizzard knows the answer empirically and thus there is great risk associated with this pursuit.
This is a great line of thinking. Here's a crazy idea that is strictly Classic+ and not truly WoW Classic, but may be a decent compromise. What if you released Burning Crusade/Wrath of the Lich King content but kept the level cap at 60 and simply made their gear different, like what @RedridgeGnoll was saying above? That way people can run the "new" content, you avoid power creep, and people that want to experience those zones get a chance to do so, in a Blizzard official environment.
Over saturation, like making the other expansions into their own servers, could be cannibalistic to the fanbase that wants to see classic in the first place, so I wouldn't want to go that route.

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snickerwicket wrote:
1 year ago
This is a great line of thinking. Here's a crazy idea that is strictly Classic+ and not truly WoW Classic, but may be a decent compromise. What if you released Burning Crusade/Wrath of the Lich King content but kept the level cap at 60 and simply made their gear different, like what @RedridgeGnoll was saying above?
You would need to be certain that combining BC and WotlK in a 60 capped environment would stimulate more interest than running those expansions on their own exclusively. Will more people be interested in re-experiencing something they are familiar with, in the form of revisiting those previous expansions as they were, or will more people be interested in them all being amalgamated into one gigantic franken project? Will that franken project not only appeal to the same size of an audience, but actually an INCREASED audience to justify the additional costs of development to create such a product?

I don't have the answer, but my bet is that this fraken project would appeal to less people than running those three games independently. If I had to bet, I would estimate a very VERY small portion of people invested in those individual expansions, would be interested in seeing them all mashed together. The people who love BC but hated WotLK (me) would have no interest in it. The people who only want to play Classic vanilla, would have no interest. The people who never got to play any of these products and want to experience and authentic recreation, would have no use for such a project. At what point do we simply advocate that we want to see a new MMO all together?

edit: I'll be honest. I'm less excited for Classic (and IM DAMN EXCITED) than I am in seeing the impact and outcome of its success. I would love to see developers create new games that we havent explored based on oldschool gaming philosophies.

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snickerwicket wrote:
1 year ago
What if you released Burning Crusade/Wrath of the Lich King content but kept the level cap at 60 and simply made their gear different, like what @RedridgeGnoll was saying above?
Could you imagine dinging 60 and trying to get dungeon groups together to get gear to go into one of 24 raids available at level 60? Haha. That would not work unfortunately, it would be a clusterfuck trying to get groups/guilds together to get your Tier 1, or 7, or 2.5, or 9 - whatever suited your build best. Then you would probably need LFR and cross realm to be able to make it work, and we don't want to go down that path in this thread!

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Selexin wrote:
1 year ago
Stfuppercut wrote:
1 year ago
What if you released Burning Crusade/Wrath of the Lich King content but kept the level cap at 60 and simply made their gear different, like what @RedridgeGnoll was saying above?
Could you imagine dinging 60 and trying to get dungeon groups together to get gear to go into one of 24 raids available at level 60? Haha. That would not work unfortunately, it would be a clusterfuck trying to get groups/guilds together to get your Tier 1, or 7, or 2.5, or 9 - whatever suited your build best. Then you would probably need LFR and cross realm to be able to make it work, and we don't want to go down that path in this thread!
I didnt say that. Quoted the wrong person accidentally :lol: . Agreed though. Their version of the game sounds like a complete clusterfuck. I cant imagine trying to pitch this idea in a room of game developers.

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Stfuppercut wrote:
1 year ago
I didnt say that. Quoted the wrong person accidentally :lol:
Sorry dude, quote button wigged out on me! Fixed via edit*

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Selexin wrote:
1 year ago
snickerwicket wrote:
1 year ago
What if you released Burning Crusade/Wrath of the Lich King content but kept the level cap at 60 and simply made their gear different, like what @RedridgeGnoll was saying above?
Could you imagine dinging 60 and trying to get dungeon groups together to get gear to go into one of 24 raids available at level 60? Haha. That would not work unfortunately, it would be a clusterfuck trying to get groups/guilds together to get your Tier 1, or 7, or 2.5, or 9 - whatever suited your build best. Then you would probably need LFR and cross realm to be able to make it work, and we don't want to go down that path in this thread!
That's a valid point. What if there were seasons? You can only get vanilla raids in one season, BC in another, WOTLK in another, and so on, kind of how overwatch does timed events. As an addendum, the expansion zones would have to be scaled down so that the end zones would be 60, starter zones would be 40? 50? I don't know. It would definitely be a frankenstein, but maybe a fun frankenstein?

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@snickerwicket Maybe blizzard can do crazy fun servers with seasons at some point, for a newer market to attract. It is certainly not something to consider for Classic though. They could easily make some battle royale style BG (like a controlled gurubashi arena) to appeal to that huge market too. The possibilities are endless to think about, but I doubt any will come to fruition.

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Selexin wrote:
1 year ago
The possibilities are endless to think about, but I doubt any will come to fruition.
RISK VS REWARD. @Selexin is correct. Will we get our money back? A maybe is not good enough. They didn't refuse remaking Vanilla because they hated Vanilla players. They aren't recreating Classic because they love their fans. They are a company. Companies make money. Vanilla was a huge risk until someone did it and it worked (Nostalrius). Everyone has an idea but not many people have a demonstrated and working prototype. The choice to recreate Classic became clear when Nostalrius offered a functional prototype with demonstrated success. That same success can easily be achieved by recreating BC and WotLK. This franken project is a gigantic gamble. A gamble that requires a TON of investment. Investment and development power that could be used elsewhere for a greater return on investment; like creating a new mmo.

Do you think Blizzard dev's were pumped to make a Diablo mobile game? No. Analytics and market research determined that was a safe bet. So it will be made. Regardless of the initial backlash, that game will have a huge return on investment. This is how large companies operate.

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RedridgeGnoll wrote:
1 year ago
Those concepts of including areas like Grim Batol, Dragon Isles would be cool. New zones, dungeons, raids that are added should be connected and inside the Old World. I do not think welfare epics should be added as a catch up mechanic however. Having high end gear attainable through an endgame quest chain should be welcomed. Set Naxxramas gear at the highest end, then add more gear that falls within T1, T2, T3. Use different set bonuses or even new attributes to distinguish the sets. Not only would players be able to look different, but also customize their builds/playstyles through set bonuses on new gear.
I'm not sure where the problem here lies, or why people seem to misconstrue this so very often. I'm not suggesting that you have entire sets that negate any of the content prior - purely supplemental gear that assists players in getting to AQ/Naxx, hence pegging it at BWL/AQ level. Vanilla had catch up content much the same all through out. Ony was welfare gear to the most part, ZG provided gear that directly contested MC and to a degree BWL gear, Tier 0.5 contested MC/BWL gear, Naxx implemented quest lines with equipment that also brought that base level power up as well. My suggestions was along the lines of a couple of piece of equipment similar in power to BWL such that you would still need to do that content to progress.

I also personally don't know why you would want to set Naxx as the top end with any level of horizontal progression. The issue is that you still need to incentivise players to do the content in the first place. If you're adding some pseudo content between Naxx and AQ, people just skip it and go straight to Naxx. Unless it's unfathomabley easy in which case, people just spam the crap out of this new content and Naxx becomes a cake walk. If you're adding new raid content, it needs to be in direct competition, or it needs to be a slight increase in power, with the raid being a lot harder. risk/reward.

I don't think adding new set bonuses is a fix all. I understand where you're headed with it and why - but I think modifiying things like that really starts to affect the whole meta and changes around how people talent, etc. Gearing then becomes extremely strange if you're suddenly shoving non-viable specs into the light.

Every change needs to be looked at objectively with reasoning for implementation.

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Solveig wrote:
1 year ago
Every change needs to be looked at objectively with reasoning for implementation.
This is the key takeaway from all discussions regarding changes to Classic, and ultimately most wont have enough objective reasoning to actually implement the change.

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RedridgeGnoll wrote:
1 year ago
That was the reality back in 2005/2006. Many players demanded more content. That is why Blizzard set out to make The Burning Crusade. Classic WoW won't keep growing unless they keep adding content. That is just the nature of gaming. The OP offers an alternate path than the one which led us to TBC.
Sorry what?
Many players demanded more content

Ehem, did you saw the graph how many people back then cleared Naxx?
Only 100 Guilds cleared Naxx pre-TBC Patch, that means around 400 People saw the complete Content. From what 6mio. Players?
And on every realm I played there mostly was one or two persons who had EVERYTHING done, in meanings of Professions/Reputation and other stuff.

If people complained about more content back then, i'm sorry, they were idiots.
I would also like to have pre-TBC patch Naxx cleared unfortunately I only saw 60% at that time.

Honestly, all the people who are already screaming for more content etc. they simply have no idea how powerful Classic is and what to expect.
Yeah, sure, we know when the game ends, but I'm telling you. Half of the players won't complete the content within the given phases.

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aeh wrote:
1 year ago
RedridgeGnoll wrote:
1 year ago
That was the reality back in 2005/2006. Many players demanded more content. That is why Blizzard set out to make The Burning Crusade. Classic WoW won't keep growing unless they keep adding content. That is just the nature of gaming. The OP offers an alternate path than the one which led us to TBC.
Sorry what?
Many players demanded more content

Ehem, did you saw the graph how many people back then cleared Naxx?
Only 100 Guilds cleared Naxx pre-TBC Patch, that means around 400 People saw the complete Content. From what 6mio. Players?
And on every realm I played there mostly was one or two persons who had EVERYTHING done, in meanings of Professions/Reputation and other stuff.

If people complained about more content back then, i'm sorry, they were idiots.
I would also like to have pre-TBC patch Naxx cleared unfortunately I only saw 60% at that time.

Honestly, all the people who are already screaming for more content etc. they simply have no idea how powerful Classic is and what to expect.
Yeah, sure, we know when the game ends, but I'm telling you. Half of the players won't complete the content within the given phases.
The content in Classic WoW is frontloaded. Almost all of it is during the first year. Most players were not actively involved in raiding. The issue with WoW Classic is that there is not much content added after the first year. Blizzard added no new dungeons or zones after the first year. They only added more hardcore raids which very few players did. Instead of adding more dungeons, quests, raids similar to ZG or MC, Blizzard went full hardcore with AQ/Naxx. All that did was widen the gap between the elitists and casuals. The lack of content in the 2nd year of Classic led to many players to quit. I was one of them. However, there were so many new players joining the game even towards the end of Classic, that the dip wasn't noticeable.

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Solveig wrote:
1 year ago
RedridgeGnoll wrote:
1 year ago
Those concepts of including areas like Grim Batol, Dragon Isles would be cool. New zones, dungeons, raids that are added should be connected and inside the Old World. I do not think welfare epics should be added as a catch up mechanic however. Having high end gear attainable through an endgame quest chain should be welcomed. Set Naxxramas gear at the highest end, then add more gear that falls within T1, T2, T3. Use different set bonuses or even new attributes to distinguish the sets. Not only would players be able to look different, but also customize their builds/playstyles through set bonuses on new gear.
I don't think adding new set bonuses is a fix all. I understand where you're headed with it and why - but I think modifiying things like that really starts to affect the whole meta and changes around how people talent, etc. Gearing then becomes extremely strange if you're suddenly shoving non-viable specs into the light.

Every change needs to be looked at objectively with reasoning for implementation.
The challenge is offering horizontal gear progression that is worthwhile. I agree that is difficult. It is more convoluted than just adding Tier 4 gear that has higher stats. Doing that only causes power creep which renders other gear irrelevant. The idea instead is to change the meta and change the way players use talents and abilities. That is where the replayability comes in. Instead of messing with the spells and talent trees, which would effect all playes, you could use something like tier set bonuses to create individual build diversity. Players could enhance the talents they like, and sacrifice ones they don't. For instance compare the Rogue T1 and T2 sets.

Tier 1 Rogue Nightslayer

(3) Set : Reduces the cooldown of your Vanish ability by 30 sec.
(5) Set : Increases your maximum Energy by 10.
(8) Set : Heals the rogue for 500 when Vanish is performed.

Tier 2 Rogue Bloodfang

(3) Set : Increases the chance to apply poisons to your target by 5%.
(5) Set : Improves the threat reduction of Feint by 25%.
(8) Set : Gives the Rogue a chance to inflict 283 to 317 damage on the target and heal the Rogue for 50 health every 1 sec. for 6 sec. on a melee hit.

Bloodfang is probably the better set in PvE. The attack power I believe is higher. However, the tier set bonuses of Tier 1 Nightslayer might appeal more to a PvP player. You could have other Tier 1 or Tier 2 sets that change the way abilities or talents work. It isn't a vast overhaul of the spell or talent system, it just allows for minor tweaks based on player preferences. There is also the appeal of the new visuals that additional tier sets would offer.

Blizzard could add a Scarlet Crusade 40 man Raid. The Raid would drop T2 gear. A hypothetical new rogue set could be Phantasmal Armor.

Tier 2 Rogue Phantasmal

(3) Set : Increases the chance of Eviscerate to ignore armor by 5%.
(5) Set : Dirty deeds also reduces the energy of kidney shot by 10.
(8) Set : Adrenaline rush now increases movement speed by 100%.

You want to keep the basic talent/spell system of Classic WoW in tact. Ability bloat is very bad. The goal is to alter the playstyles and meta of classes through these set bonuses. Players would be able to combine different set bonuses to create builds for PvP and PvE. The bonuses need to be interesting enough so that players want to collect new raid sets. In the expansions, players collect new gear solely for the sake of increasing their stats in a linear fashion. I think this horizontal progression system offers more customization without making gear obsolete. There is also the cosmetic aspect. Players want new gear just for the sake of looking different too. There is also other items players can collect in raids than just gear.

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The allure of playing WoW is the progression the game offers. Classic WoW has an especially steep progression curve that offers substantial rewards. You get huge upgrades in Classic WoW, that is part of the fun. How do you implement a horizontal progression system that makes collecting more gear worthwhile? Do you place the focus on adding more farmable mounts, pets, tradeskill recipes instead? Classic WoW needed more systems in the open world, as well as ways to progress your character outside of just gearing. There are so many dynamic systems that could add to the open world for both PvE and PvP. Vertical progression kills content. That is the easy way out. The Burning Crusade practically killed the world of Classic.

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