I think it is worthwhile to discuss possible content Post-Naxx which diverts from the TBC route. I think any content which might be added to Classic WoW should exist to give players more gameplay options, not erase ones that already exist in Classic. Several years ago, Runescape relaunched the Classic version of the game. It was very popular at launch, but eventually the content dried up and so did the population. The developers were able to successfully add new content which enabled the population to grow higher than at launch. I believe the same thing can happen with Classic WoW, as long as Blizzard keeps the spirit of Classic WoW aglow. Below is an outline for expanding Classic WoW using horizontal progression.
Horizontal Progression through Set Bonuses
If there was new content added to Classic WoW, it could be in the form of new set bonuses. They could be an incentive to complete new dungeon/raid content. Players would have the option to look and play differently through new tier sets.
If there were new dungeons and T1, T2, T3 raids that dropped gear with new set bonuses, would that allow for enough customization? If there was a new Tier 2 raid similar to Blackwing Lair, it could drop new set bonuses that changed the way certain talents worked. ex. T2 mage set Spellweave Regalia (5) Set Bonus 5%chance Pyroblast hits multiple targets. Tier 2 rogue set with a 5 piece set bonus that gives bonus % to a talent. Like 20% increased Master of Deception talent so you have better stealth. Gear set bonuses could we a way for players to enhance their talents and create new talent specs. Imagine if ret paladins could boost the effectiveness of the Retribution tree through raid gear set bonuses. If you change the talent trees, you risk homogenizing the classes and the issues with the vertical raid progression is that if attribute increases are all that matter, then higher tier drop gear is clearly better.
Naxxramas gear should remain top end. Adding new raids that increase the tier level beyond 3 creates problematic power creep. The solution is perhaps to add special set bonuses to gear from new raids, as well as bonuses that aren't just attribute differences. You have to create itemization that makes doing all the raid content worth it, but at the same time doesn't invalidate the other raids. What if the itemization is good enough that real character customization exists from collecting different raid tiers? New on-use trinkets, ring set bonuses, etc.. as well
The idea is that you would be able to make new specs by collecting the new raid gear set bonuses. The set bonuses would change the way your talents work, so you could build your character in many new ways.
For example. a new T2 mage raid set called Hypnotic Regalia.
3 piece set bonus: increases duration of polymorph by 10%.
5 piece set bonus: Improved counterspell disarms the target
8 piece set bonus: Arcane Power spells now do splash damage in a 50 yard radius.
New Quests, Collectables, and Leveling Zones
Improving the leveling, questing, and farming experience in Classic WoW is something that new content patches could focus on. Have new questlines and storymodes for leveling zones. Add new zones to the old world, and fill in gaps on the map. For every raid patch, there could be a patch that enhances other aspects of the game. Never underestimate how popular cosmetic/collectables are. There should be new mounts, recipes, etc.. that you can farm in new through faction rep/raids/dungeons/questlines. Have long quest chains, riddles, and puzzles that players can investigate.
This isn't a priority really, but Blizzard originally intended to make player housing. I think having players or guild housing in certain parts of the world could work.
World PvP System
Instead of adding Arena to Classic WoW, add a new system where players can viably rank up through World PvP. A huge flaw with Classic WoW is how battlegrounds become the main focus of PvP. You can't really rank up doing World PvP once battlegrounds are released. They need to either create a separate honor system where you only rank up doing world PvP with a leaderboard or increase the honor gains from World PvP in the current honor system. Add more objectives and resources to collect. Add unique chests and rewards hidden across zones so players leave the capital cities to find them. Have PvP campaigns/scenarios in world zones that last a certain amount of time.
There was a Hero's Call Board in Cataclysm. There could be something similar in Classic where players could create and signup for serverwide events. Player-run PvP/PvE events such as speed runs, ironman runs, dueling tournaments, Roleplaying games etc..
New Classic Races
There will always be a demand from some players for more races/classes etc.. The classes Blizzard introduced in the expansions don't belong in Classic WoW. From a gameplay and lore perspective. However, Worgen and Goblin were prominent in Classic WoW, and adding these two races and their zones would fit in perfectly.
Having a new tradeskill profession that allowed players to build. Being able to sail from Booty Bay to the Lost Isles across the ocean could add for a lot of immerson. Being able to fish, pvp, treasure hunt, and just hang out on the open seas might be fun.
This kind of post gets done a lot, and a lot of people talk about 1.13 or Classic+ here and on other social media platforms. I don't know, I do like the idea with Runescape with the voting tool where the vote had to get 75% to implement changes/additions to the game. This is interesting, and is something I could entertain after Classic WoW has run it's course, but only on a separate mirrored server. I would hate for people to feel their Vanilla/Classic WoW experience invalidated once again by an 'expansion'. I don't think people should ever have to worry about their Classic WoW characters being invalidated by extra/added content. Classic+ server running separately after a few years of Classic could bring about a huge population boost and also a new 'meta' so to speak. But for now I just want them to focus on getting Classic right
As long as it isn't instanced - I am having flashbacks to Garrisons, and that shit was horrible. I have seen it done in games that had much bigger worlds so there could be designated areas for public housing and it was awesome, but WoW isn't big enough to do it in the open world, and having people disappear into instanced housing/guild housing is bad for the community. Don't take people out of the world.
Were Worgen prominent in Vanilla WoW? Maybe as enemies I guess there was a presence in Silverpine/SFK. Goblins had a much bigger prominence with all the neutral cities. I don't like this, the additions just sound more and more like retail changes that just made the game feel less unique.
Definitely not a new idea but an interesting talking piece. I selfishly would love horizontal content if it was done tastefully. From a business standpoint, why? I mean, they have YEARS of existing content to capitalize on. Run Classic for a few years, then BC Classic, then WoTLK Classic, while simultaneously expanding on their primary game with new expansions... They have years and years and years of content laid out in front of them with two substantial audiences, why over saturate their market? Do I want it? Yes. Could it be done? Absolutely, if they followed the core game philosophies that made Classic what it was. Will they? Probably not. All of this will depend on what the market demands.
As far as boats and player housing etc etc etc... These are not tasteful changes (IMO). In my opinion, if they were to go that route I would prefer them to just create a new game and for the investment of resources these modifications would make, why not create a new game?
Obviously player housing and boats are not a priority
They would exist out in the open world if ever implemented. Give players more pursuits in the world zones.
One of the biggest challenges WoW Classic faced was keeping players motivated to raid, quest, and collect gear. That is why Blizzard gave us TBC. New level cap to grind. Higher tiers of gear to raid for. The issue was that it totally invalidated the content of Classic WoW. It became obsolete. An alternative would be to introduce new gear sets that have similar attribute levels as current Classic raid gear, but add unique set bonuses that alter the effectiveness of talents and trees. This might allow players to experiment and use far more talent builds and playstyles than what than game currently offers.
A mechanic like this gives players more options for customizing their class in PvE and PvP. The class abilities and identities would be kept in tact, but players would now be able to invent their own playstyles using the more in depth gear bonus system. Sort of like what is possible in Diablo 2. All the Tier 1 raid gear would have similar attributes, but different set bonuses or procs. It would totally change how you play a class, while still keeping the system straightforward.
Really? I have never heard that perspective before... Player retention was at an all time high. Players had endless content and most players weren't even able to experience all the content that was available at the time, let alone demand more! You must have been a very accomplished player in vanilla! I cant imagine having no motivation to raid or collect gear...
Classic WoW content is limited. Most of the content was released in the first year of Classic. Blizzard created TBC to add more content to the game. They did it through vertical progression that rendered the Classic content irrelevant. Millions of players who played Classic WoW joined at different times during Classic. Most players didn't start at launch, therefore they often never experienced most of the content. There is a lack of content added to WoW post-BWL. A lot of players who started at launch were burned out by the time AQ released. Understandably, Blizzard was focusing their efforts on TBC. There will come a time Post-Naxx when players want more to do. Going the TBC route is a mistake, as I think that the nostalgia is strong with that one. This topic is about how Blizzard can succeed expanding upon Classic WoW.Stfuppercut wrote: ↑4 months agoReally? I have never heard that perspective before... Player retention was at an all time high. Players had endless content and most players weren't even able to experience all the content that was available at the time, let alone demand more!
Yeh I remember a lot of the sentiment in my guild being the following:
"Ahhh fuck, I've just lost all my progress and starting from scratch leveling again!"
"We didn't get to do AQ40/Naxx!"
"Holy shit I just replaced my Tier 2 legs with greens from Zangarmarsh!"
The game definitely needed more time after Naxx was released before BC hit.
Yeh, some real stinkers in there too.
I don't think anyone here would disagree that BC completely invalidated Classic content. It did. I don't think that Blizzard released BC because players weren't playing, in fact I think it was quite the opposite... They repurposed a lot of content that was intended for Vanilla as BC content and capitalized on selling a new expansion.RedridgeGnoll wrote: ↑4 months agoClassic WoW content is limited. Most of the content was released in the first year of Classic. Blizzard created TBC to add more content to the game. They did it through vertical progression that rendered the Classic content irrelevant. Millions of players who played Classic WoW joined at different times during Classic. Most players didn't start at launch, therefore they often never experienced most of the content. There is a lack of content added to WoW post-BWL. A lot of players who started at launch were burned out by the time AQ released. Understandably, Blizzard was focusing their efforts on TBC. There will come a time Post-Naxx when players want more to do.
Really? You're going to "You think you do, but you dont" us?
The Classic WoW population probably would have grown even if TBC had not released when it did. Eventually, Blizzard would have had to add more progession once too many players reached 60 and endgame.
edit: what is your point? They had the option to add additional content or add a new expansion. They went with the expansion.
Good point. I meant 1 year after launch. The 2nd year of Classic is AQ, Naxx, dishonorable kills, weather effects. It is when many players get burned out.
So you acknowledge there was a lot of content. You're saying that players got burned out. Your answer to their burnout is to add additional content? I'm really struggling to understand what your point is. There is a metric ton of content in Classic. Most of which wasn't completed by the average user. When you're saying people were burned out, are you talking about burnout due to playing TOO hard, or are you talking about a lack of content that lead to players becoming bored with the game? The player retention for vanilla was nutty high; people weren't cancelling subs.
The vast majority of players who played Classic WoW didn't start at launch. You had millions of players joining the game when AQ/NAXX were released. Most players were new to MMORPGs and some didn't progress that far regardless of when they started. However, speaking as somebody who started around launch, there was definitely a burnout/boredom by the time AQ came out. The game was very raid focused. The only content Blizzard added in the second year was high end raiding. It was challenging enough for most players to even acquire BWL gear, let alone get into an AQ clearing guild. Progression sort of hit a wall for some players after the first year. Think of all the content that TBC added and got players excited. New continent, new quests, 10 new levels, new dungeons, raids, arena, races, starting zones etc.. I did not agree with most of these changes at the time, especially flying mounts. I did not buy TBC when it released, because I felt that Blizzard had ditched the original vision of WoW. I realize how popular TBC was, but I believe the same today as I do then, that adding content more in the spirit of the original game was the better option. I think a lot of what players liked about TBC was a product of the time. A lot of those systems have been surpassed by other games, while the community, immersion, and roleplaying aspects of Classic WoW are unmatched to this day. This website/forum is awesome btw.Stfuppercut wrote: ↑4 months agoSo you acknowledge there was a lot of content. You're saying that players got burned out. Your answer to their burnout is to add additional content? I'm really struggling to understand what your point is. There is a metric ton of content in Classic. Most of which wasn't completed by the average user. When you're saying people were burned out, are you talking about burnout due to playing TOO hard, or are you talking about a lack of content that lead to players becoming bored with the game? The player retention for vanilla was nutty high; people weren't cancelling subs.
@RedridgeGnoll I do agree in principal about horizontal vs. vertical progression, but like I said earlier I don't think it is needed for a long time, and also probably isn't wanted by a lot of the community - which causes a lot of unwanted headaches for Blizzard.
I know, but I am convinced players are going to burnout faster this time around. A lot of popular games nowadays are constantly updated and patched. Even the BFA crowd will breeze through much of Classic if they remain active. I worry Blizzard will shorten the phases and release the later raid content too soon.
What do you think of horizontal gear progression using different set bonuses that change talents or abilities. The attributes wouldn't necessarily determine the value of raid sets, because they would have a variety of set bonuses that change your playstyle.
Compare Nightslayer vs Bloodfang
Tier 1 Rogue Nightslayer
3 pieces: Reduces the cooldown of your Vanish ability by 30 sec.
5 pieces: Increases your maximum Energy by 10.
8 pieces: Heals the rogue for 500 when Vanish is performed.
Tier 2 Rogue Bloodfang
(3) Set : Increases the chance to apply poisons to your target by 5%.
(5) Set : Improves the threat reduction of Feint by 25%.
(8) Set : Gives the Rogue a chance to inflict 283 to 317 damage on the target and heal the Rogue for 50 health every 1 sec. for 6 sec. on a melee hit.
Bloodfang gives pretty similar attributes, but the gear set bonuses are wildly different. This gives players an option to wear either set or combined them for set bonuses. This is the kind of horizontal progression I am talking about. You could have multiple T1 and T2 sets with varying set bonuses.
For example. a new T2 mage raid set called Hypnotic Regalia.
3 pieces: increases duration of polymorph by 10%.
5 pieces: Improved counterspell disarms the target
8 pieces: Arcane Power spells now do splash damage in a 50 yard radius.
It's just a bit too triggering for the #nochanges part of me I guess. Like I said, if it is introduced on a mirrored server as Classic+ then sure, why not.
It' a recreation of a 15 year old game, there is no 'staying relevant'. The only growing that Classic WoW will do, is via the community and the player based events and interactions. The entire purpose for Classic is to simply recreate and immortalize the Vanilla WoW time.
I think you underestimate how much potential Classic WoW has. I am well aware that the gaming community is much different nowadays, but I think the MMORPG market has lots of space to grow. There just isn't that much competition. Classic WoW is flawed in some regard, but I think it still appeals to players who are new to the genre.Selexin wrote: ↑4 months agoIt' a recreation of a 15 year old game, there is no 'staying relevant'. The only growing that Classic WoW will do, is via the community and the player based events and interactions. There entire purpose for Classic is to simply recreate and immortalize the Vanilla WoW time.
This whole outcry over the years has been about bringing back Classic WoW, not TBC or WOTLK. I understand your perspective, but why tread the path that lead us to Battle for Azeroth? Do I think The Burning Crusade was a better experience than later expansions like WoD or BFA? Sure, but there is a reason Classic WoW is the game that Blizzard is resurrecting. Classic is what has been most popular on private servers, as well as argued over on discussion forums. What if Classic WoW is just as good as many remembered? Why not keep it alive through new content?
I do not think Classic WoW is the perfect game, and I am well aware that many gamers today won't care for it. I am thoroughly convinced however, that TBC and WOTLK are upheld mostly by nostalgia. Features like arena, small capital cities, being stuck on a single continent, flying mounts, heroic modes all helped define TBC and WOTLK. These same features continue define WoW in BFA as well. Classic is different.
I think you miss the biggest point here, Classic WoW is born out of the fact that millions of players were searching out and playing illegally run private servers. On those servers, the successful ones were the ones that were able to best recreate the Vanilla WoW gameplay and timeline as closely as possible to the original. People don't want a 'custom' server with additions and changes and extra content. They wanted Vanilla WoW just as it was, with flaws and problems and grinding. It is a different type of game that doesn't exist anymore, and people want it back.
I don't know if they will do Classic BC/WotLK, possibly - but for now the whole intention of this was to capitalize on the already existing desire for people to play a Blizzlike Vanilla Server, over a decade after it disappeared.