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Pretty much the title. You guys think that you can make a reputation for yourself as well as you could back in the days? Or will the "layering" ruin it? Or will the servers be too big and players will be easily replaced?

Thoughts?

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Yes yes yes. The sole fact that you are not running across different servers will ensure this. There will be layering, but only in the first phase, and voices of other people deeds will still reach your ears. I'm ready to see the Trustable Crafters list for every server :-) And also a good ninja-looter list will be surely done. I can't wait for the community!

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well, layering is going away within the first month or two. but, yeah, i think its possible. i mean, just what kind of reputation are you after? on the large scale, i doubt anyone will ever be as famous as, say, the guild leader from the infamous Onyxia wipe animation. but people will generally recognize the best guilds on their server.

on the small scale, being nice and good at your class will always net you new friends after a successful dungeon run. more importantly, being an asshole will definitely see your name spread around. especially anything business related. screw someone over, or steal their crafting mats, no one will open a trade window with you again. ninja loot something from a guild raid and you'll probably get gkicked out of every subsequent guild you join after they figure out about it.

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Layering is until P2 and I think Blizzard will not end P1 in about one month, layering wills stay 3-4 atleast.

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Threkuul wrote:
1 week ago
well, layering is going away within the first month or two. but, yeah, i think its possible. i mean, just what kind of reputation are you after?
Well, I dont know. Still dont know what to play. But pugging classic wont be possible? #antisocial

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aeh wrote:
1 week ago
Layering is until P2 and I think Blizzard will not end P1 in about one month, layering wills stay 3-4 atleast.
I can't find any definitive quote that says [Layering End] = [End of Phase 1]. All I can find are people asking whether it's that or if [Layering End] >= [End of Phase 1]. I would really like to know personally, but it seems like no one else knows for sure either, not even Blizzard.

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Vinni wrote:
1 week ago
Threkuul wrote:
1 week ago
well, layering is going away within the first month or two. but, yeah, i think its possible. i mean, just what kind of reputation are you after?
Well, I dont know. Still dont know what to play. But pugging classic wont be possible? #antisocial
If you keep a low profile it's entirely possible for people to not know much about you except which guild you used to be in.

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With Discord / Reddit being a thing these days, it will be very easy to ruin your reputation once layering ends.

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Gallow wrote:
1 week ago
With Discord / Reddit being a thing these days, it will be very easy to ruin your reputation once layering ends.
Very true!

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I don't think it will ever be as powerful as it was, but I think it will definitely matter a whole lot more than it has in many years.

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Be careful about ninja lists guys - especially ones which don't require submissions to have evidence attached. Very easy to abuse systems like this.

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I think it will be way easier to ruin someones reputation since we are all on discord/Reddit/ Other social forums/platforms but significantly harder to build a good reputation up because of the way the majority of people are today.

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I suggest screenshoting every unsual situation, especially when someone in your party do ninja loot. Could be useful later, hopefully not. :)

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in regards to the layering question, i cant remember where i saw it, so i dont have any proof...and dont feel like rewatching every blizz video/interview just to find it...but i'd swear on my life one of the blizzard staff specifically stated "layer will only last for about one month. a MAXIMUM of two."

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Threkuul wrote:
1 week ago
in regards to the layering question, i cant remember where i saw it, so i dont have any proof...and dont feel like rewatching every blizz video/interview just to find it...but i'd swear on my life one of the blizzard staff specifically stated "layer will only last for about one month. a MAXIMUM of two."
Ion said in an interview the day after Beta that layering would last for the entirety of Phase 1, then be gone when Phase 2 comes out.

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Vinni wrote:
1 week ago
Pretty much the title. You guys think that you can make a reputation for yourself as well as you could back in the days? Or will the "layering" ruin it? Or will the servers be too big and players will be easily replaced?

Thoughts?
Depends entirely on populations. Layering will obviously separate the community and reputations will be non-existent during this phase, but thats only temporary. The larger a community is, the less intimate it becomes. If servers are 3-5k, you will know everyone. At 5-8k, you will know a lot less people and the social ramifications for your actions will be less. At 12k+ players, you wont know anyone and you will not be able to make a meaningful impact on the people you play with.

Think of a small town VS a large city. People are MORE valuable when there are less of them. In a small town you know your neighbor because they are your support network. In a large city that is overcrowded, people are nuisance and you intentionally avoid them when possible. From my experience on retail and private, private servers were like a large city and there were almost no social ramifications to your actions at about 10-12k players.

My behavior on private was VERY different than on retail because I knew that I would not be held accountable for my actions, and I wasnt.

We don't know what the desired pop will be for Classic from Blizzard and that population will dictate if you are actually able to make a meaningful impact on the players around you. When they collapse these layers what are we looking at? What about the server that has 4-5 layers at 3k per layer. What is Blizz willing to collapse that down to? When will servers be merged? What is low pop and what is high pop? We dont really have a lot of information at this point.

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Stfuppercut wrote:
1 week ago
Think of a small town VS a large city. People are MORE valuable when there are less of them. In a small town you know your neighbor because they are your support network. In a large city that is overcrowded, people are nuisance and you intentionally avoid them when possible. From my experience on retail and private, private servers were like a large city and there were almost no social ramifications to your actions at about 10-12k players.
Very good comparisons, great reply. Thank you!

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Stfuppercut wrote:
1 week ago
reputations will be non-existent during this phase
You are overstating this very dramatically. Do you really think you can just go around in one of 3 layers ninja'ing, being a cockhead etc. and not feel ramifications? That is really short sighted dude. Your post is well discussed and thought out, but I still think you are being overly dramatic about the layering impact on social aspects. It's not sharding, you will see a lot of the same people all the time during layering, you can't ignore that.

EDIT: I don't think we should get back into a layering argument and derail another thread, just wanted to point out my concern with the layering rhetoric.

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Selexin wrote:
1 week ago
You are overstating this very dramatically. Do you really think you can just go around in one of 3 layers ninja'ing, being a cockhead etc. and not feel ramifications?
I believe that social ramifications and the extent of shunning will be directly correlated to the amount of players on a given realm. I believe that layering will reduce the social ramifications of your actions. Do you disagree? Why?
Selexin wrote:
1 week ago
Your post is well discussed and thought out, but I still think you are being overly dramatic about the layering impact on social aspects. It's not sharding, you will see a lot of the same people all the time during layering, you can't ignore that.
Nothing too dramatic. Take another read. I'll put it in simpler terms that may be more relatable... If 2 people are in a room and you fart, the other guy knows who it was. You will be held accountable for your fart. If 50 people are in the room and you fart, everyone avoids the group of people (guild/group) in the fart radius but aren't certain who is at fault. If 20,000 people are in a stadium, people are farting everywhere and no one can keep track of all the farts. You just plug your nose and try to surround yourself with the people you know. You silo yourself to avoid as many farts as you can but the reality of the stadium is that you will be smelling farts occasionally and you accept that as your reality.

The population of a server will be directly correlated to the social ramifications of your actions.

Edit: Concerning your layering comment, I totally avoided getting back into that... Lol, was surprised you aggitated the layering debate but I'm not interested in revisiting that either. I will try to keep this productive as possible!

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I'm sure blacklist addons will be returning. With the hardware most people are packing these days gathering evidence with shadowplay will be very common and call outs won't be a bunch of hearsay.

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Stfuppercut wrote:
1 week ago
Nothing too dramatic. Take another read. I'll put it in simpler terms that may be more relatable... If 2 people are in a room and you fart, the other guy knows who it was. You will be held accountable for your fart. If 50 people are in the room and you fart, everyone avoids the group of people (guild/group) in the fart radius but aren't certain who is at fault. If 20,000 people are in a stadium, people are farting everywhere and no one can keep track of all the farts. You just plug your nose and try to surround yourself with the people you know. You silo yourself to avoid as many farts as you can but the reality of the stadium is that you will be smelling farts occasionally and you accept that as your reality.
But your 'simpler terms' example gives more credence to being a dick in a layerless high population server with dynamic respawns. By your reckoning if you 'fart' in your layer, people are more likely to know, but if you 'fart' on a high population server with no layering no one will know. That is completely contradictory to your dramatic original comment, and yes it was dramatic, let me just quote it again for reference:
Stfuppercut wrote:
1 week ago
Layering will obviously separate the community and reputations will be non-existent during this phase
Please tell me how this isn't a complete black and white dramatic reaction to layering. If you're a dick, people will know. Once there is no layering, more people will experience it, but while layering is active you will most certainly generate a reputation (Good or bad) on at least your layer, if not all layers. A good case would be the examples you have provided previously by layer hopping to gank/grief in PvP or layer hopping to camp/grief rare spawns. You really think "reputations will be non-existent" during that phase? Come on dude, I like having discussions with you about stuff, but you are being entirely unrealistic.

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Selexin wrote:
1 week ago

But your 'simpler terms' example gives more credence to being a dick in a layerless high population server with dynamic respawns. By your reckoning if you 'fart' in your layer, people are more likely to know, but if you 'fart' on a high population server with no layering no one will know. That is completely contradictory to your dramatic original comment, and yes it was dramatic, let me just quote it again for reference:
Stfuppercut wrote:
1 week ago
Layering will obviously separate the community and reputations will be non-existent during this phase
Please tell me how this isn't a complete black and white dramatic reaction to layering. If you're a dick, people will know. Once there is no layering, more people will experience it, but while layering is active you will most certainly generate a reputation (Good or bad) on at least your layer, if not all layers. A good case would be the examples you have provided previously by layer hoping to gank/grief in PvP or layer hopping to camp/grief rare spawns. You really think "reputations will be non-existent" during that phase? Come on dude, I like having discussions with you about stuff, but you are being entirely unrealistic.
We don't want to return to the layering debate. We know how that went. The primary focus of my post is based on the population numbers we will see after layers have collapsed. If you want to revisit the layering debate, the most obvious highlight would be that you would be even MORE removed from smelling a fart in a separate stadium, but I really don't want to go down the layering hole with you again, only for you to come around later on... This isn't a dramatic response to layering... As usual you are blowing things WAY out of proportion and being a bit silly. Layering separates the community into layers. The transparency of a players actions on one layer will have a reduced chance of impacting their reputation on a separate layer by the very nature of layers. Layers act as a barrier between players. Was I unrealistic during our last layering debate? How did that one end? With evidence from another user of my very concerns about layering. I have played a game with sharding. I have played vanilla with 12k players. The social ramifications of your actions on a server of 12k are non-existent. This is true. You can experience this for yourself on Northdale or any other premier private server.

Read this: "I believe that social ramifications and the extent of shunning will be directly correlated to the amount of players on a given realm. I believe that layering will reduce the social ramifications of your actions. Do you disagree? Why?" - Me

And please respond to it so we can have a constructive conversation.

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Stfuppercut wrote:
1 week ago
Read this: "I believe that social ramifications and the extent of shunning will be directly correlated to the amount of players on a given realm. I believe that layering will reduce the social ramifications of your actions. Do you disagree? Why?" - Me
That was not your original quote which I called out on being dramatic, you changed your tone with this secondary version of your original hardline stance of "reputations will be non-existent during this phase" to "social ramifications and the extent of shunning will be directly correlated to the amount of players on a given realm"

If you go and change your sentiment or wording and ask me to comment on that instead the original intent of my question, that's on you being 'silly', sorry mate. I completely agree that layering will have a temporary impact on social ramifications - of course it will. Just like sharding or similar tools will have an impact on social ramifications. I don't believe that reputations will be non-existent during that phase though. Which was what my entire original post was about, you changed your wording and meaning and tried to belittle my comments. And don't worry I won't "come around later on" regarding that stance. Reputations will exist during layering. Quote me on it.

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Selexin wrote:
1 week ago
That was not your original quote which I called out on being dramatic, you changed your tone with this secondary version of your original hardline stance of "reputations will be non-existent during this phase" to "social ramifications and the extent of shunning will be directly correlated to the amount of players on a given realm"
We don't know if there is a layer cap. We don't have confirmed numbers on each layer (estimate of 3k for now). We don't know what a high pop server will be and how low a pop needs to be for Blizzard to entirely collapse layers. We don't know if layers will be collapsed on a specific date or the collapsing process will be entirely dependent on a servers total population. If you are on a server with 4-5 layers of 3k population, as I assume can happen, you will not have a reputation in phase 1. If you think you will be able to track to the social hierarchy and individual relationships of 12k users that are ALSO separated on several different layers, you're out of touch. Very out of touch.
Selexin wrote:
1 week ago
And don't worry I won't "come around later on" regarding that stance. reputations will existing during layering. Quote me on it.
Hmmm we've gone down this road before, I have faith that you'll come around. You just need evidence and that will be readily available in Classic. =)

I suppose the best evidence would be a private server of 12k without layering where ninja looting is rampant and no one is held accountable for their actions due to the shear quantity of players. You could always try Northdale!

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Bloody hell @Stfuppercut, I didn't think you were this close minded and condescending. I can see we are at an impasse on this matter, and we shall move on to bigger and better things.

Oh btw, here is an example of a ninja looters list from Northdale. I have played on most of the big PServers from Feenix Servers, Nostalrius, Lights Hope, Elysium and people definitely do generate a social reputation - even with active 12k populations. Obviously less so than a 4k pop tight nit server, but again it's not as clear cut.

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