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Pretty much the title. I see more and more people being excited about the idea of adding content to classic, polishing class balance, etc. But I really think the idea is deeply flawed in itself. If a game is good (and WoW is more than just good) there are only so many improvements you can make that do not result in preference changes. And that is not what a passionate classic fan wants. We want the game as we know it. There is not much of an argument to be made against strict improvements (better netcode or not needing to hold down shift constantly) but spotting areas where strict improvements can be made is a frickly job.
So instead of trying to make the perfect game, we should try to accept that WoW does have its flaws. But is an amazing game regardless.
If we want a better WoW, we shouldnt risk losing what we have (again). I think WoW should try the route that pretty much all the big franchises go: Release new installations. Try new stuff, but stay true to your core principles. And if an installment turns out to be rather disappointing... thats fine. It really is. Like expansions, some will be better than others. The difference is that these games will all be there, in their true form. Not an abomination of multiple layers of disconnected content. And its up to us, the players, to decide which we still want to play in a decade.

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Absolutely agree in the short to medium turn.

What happens 2 or 3 years down the line for classic, then? If new changes renew subs, or a TBC followup gains subs? I'd have to imagine if its profitable they will make those decisions. I think by separating the servers by games could keep everyone happy. Not everyone wants TBC or new changes, but if you could copy existing characters to a new server that has either of those things...maybe? Do you spread the population too thin?

I'll cross those bridges when I need to, for now just super psyched to have Classic finally on the horizon.

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thoriumwindy
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I would like to say that we should not be afraid of change, as we can always let the devs know that we dont like the new changes.. But I think for a video game company such changes have to be liked as ALOT of money and effort was put into it, and it can either make or break that company...

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i think the idea to release always a new game is not good.

The problem with WoW was not that there are all the Xpacks but that the overall design changed between the xpacks. Just compare BFA with Classic. They are 2 totall diffrent games now. If they stayed with the core design it would maybe a better game today.

I hate that CoD and Fifa always get a new Title that you have to buy new. I know that it would not always make sense with CoD but with Fifa a patch would do the work.

MMORPGs have to be epic in scale and full of content. If they can not hit that mark like Wildstars or any other "wow Killer" then it dies faster then everything else. You want to invest endless hours into a MMORPGs, you want to get rewarded for what you do and you want to change the world of the game. If that is not the case you could play any rpg were you have a start and finish.

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I'll admit I am concerned for this Classic+ or whatever people are throwing about. Let's talk about it when Classic is 3+ years old.

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If we take a game that I love (Classic) and add content that remains true to the core game philosophies of Classic, I have a higher chance of liking the final product, than an entirely new game that will have its own game philosophies. I don't give vanilla the same credit that others do. I don't think it was some mystical product that cant be replicated. I don't think that Blizzard haphazardly made a random series of choices and decisions that lead to an incredible final product... Vanilla was planned and executed well. Blizzard designed a formula, and stuck to the formula. 15 years later they wanted to remake Classic with the same recipe, and we have every indication that they stuck to that recipe and made Classic cookies taste real similar to vanilla cookies. IF (big if here) Classic turns out the way it is shaping to turn out, I don't see how Blizzard hasn't earned enough player confidence to continue with the same recipe going forward. Classic doesn't belong to you, or to me... It belongs to Blizzard. If Blizzard can monetize horizontal content and their analytics indicate that is what players want, then that is what they should do. Why risk starting a new MMO when you already have the BEST MMO as a foundation?

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thoriumwindy
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^ I think their analytics is split between the casual players and us hardcore WoW players... So I think they'll manage two projects by continuing developing games (or expansion) for both camps, until they start to see one being more favorable than the other...

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I dont actually think that #nochanges at all is a good way to go. It is 2019 outside at a lot of new better technologies have been developed, not even saying about some approaches. Im not talking about new content, graphics and so on, but a lof o unconvinient stuff was in vanilla wow due to no or less experience. Classic wow have to be classic but as @thoriumwindy said we should not be afraid of changes. Classic is good but 2 years and you will get bored, imo.

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That the game evolves and the whole game is an endless journey is a good thing. But they should really consider the option to choose to continue. Like, copy your char over to a new realm that has the new content or something. To see realms on different xpacs etc would be neat I think. With servers being merged and monitored by the staff to keep the population going.

A new game might be what we need these days tho, BFA is too deep in the mud to be saved now. And I dont think they can save it even if they tried.

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Aethowyn wrote:
1 month ago
I'll admit I am concerned for this Classic+ or whatever people are throwing about. Let's talk about it when Classic is 3+ years old.
This.

   Selexin pan0phobik
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teebling wrote:
1 month ago
Aethowyn wrote:
1 month ago
I'll admit I am concerned for this Classic+ or whatever people are throwing about. Let's talk about it when Classic is 3+ years old.
This.
My only problem with this is that 3+ years seems really, really late to start DEVELOPING anything.

I feel like they'd want to start working on what's next by the time Naxx is about to release. Not that they'd release it super soon afterwards, but this shit takes time to do well and at the same time waiting too long to add more content seems like it's a bit dicey.

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If something actually will happen, it will be tbc. Mark my words. Either nothing or tbc.

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I could see them doing tbc, I just hope that they don't try to re-balance tbc with vanilla qualities. Either give us classic+ or tbc in a few years time, not both because it will just end up ruining it for both playerbases.

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Conspiracy theory:
Blizzard will see how Classic does over the next ~3 years. Crunch some numbers, and develop a WoW2 with positive aspects from both versions of the game.
I'm not saying this is a good or bad idea, just a theory.

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Blizzard just needs to realize that a good MMO(RPG) doesn't need expansions. At least not the kind that have been rolled out for WoW. Adding something like Kara to Classic would have gotten plenty of additional miles. The gear doesn't even have to be better than the previous instances. All it would need is different affixes and I think most of the people who played Vanilla would roll with it. By the time BC had rolled out, most folks hadn't even done Naxx and that includes me and I started playing in Nov 04. Most people hadn't openly explored all of the terrain within each zone.
A new game would be better than cronenberging a working and enjoyable version.

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Gensei wrote:
1 month ago
teebling wrote:
1 month ago
Aethowyn wrote:
1 month ago
I'll admit I am concerned for this Classic+ or whatever people are throwing about. Let's talk about it when Classic is 3+ years old.
This.
My only problem with this is that 3+ years seems really, really late to start DEVELOPING anything.
Vanilla lasted from 2004-2006 and the timeline was still too short. The cadence of releasing each raid, especially toward the end, wasn't very well thought out. This is why so few people even got passed a single wing in Naxx.

I think at the two year mark, it makes sense to start exploring the idea of extra content. But there are many things, quite honestly, that I don't trust Blizzard with. They know full well that there are many people who are very interested in minimal changes to Classic. That means keeping the game as it was. The current beta seems to be an indication of a true recreation and I applaud them for it. However Blizzard isn't very good at balance adjustments, new "features" and all that jazz because clearly time has not been kind to them in that regard.
Cletus wrote:
1 month ago
Blizzard just needs to realize that a good MMO(RPG) doesn't need expansions. At least not the kind that have been rolled out for WoW.
Yup. They need to go back to the drawing board and rethink their approach. Clearly there is a market for Classic. Otherwise they wouldn't be doing what they are doing now.

And don't get me wrong, I feel Classic even being out in a few months is amazing. I am beyond excited. But I am nervous about what is coming down the pipe. We (the Classic player base) need to be holding them accountable.

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Horizontal expansions would be best IMO. starting seperate servers with TBC etc will split up the playerbase too much but expanding on the classic world with roadmap-type content will keep people involved while allowing for progression

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I think the problem with MMOs in general is that there really has to be a large player base to be enjoyable and successful. The game isn't the same if its empty and there is nobody around to play with. And that makes things difficult when people start to imagine what happens in a few years. The problem is we can't have a separate classic server and a separate classic+ server and a new TBC server and a new wrath server - too many different server types and the player base starts getting divided down to nothing.

I definitely do want to see the game allowed to sit in full classic mode for at least 2-3 years before blizzard moves on. I would like at least 3-4 months between content release phases.

Looking a few years down the road though, I do really like the Oldschool Runescape approach. I would like to see a Classic+ model once we get there where we get new Classic content developed in the Classic environment - same old graphics, same old gameplay, same core game philosophy wrapped around fleshing out some of the empty zones on the map. Whatever the new 'Classic+' content would be, it would need to play and feel like the original stuff we all came back for.

It's easy to identify obvious things about retail that diverged from the classic gameplay - flying mounts, LFG, raid finder, and things like this have been beaten to death. And I think they're all part of what ruined the game for myself over time.

Something else that puts me off recent expansions was the forced storytelling. The current game is all about scripted material combined with phased zones and cut scenes that have to be done in a specific order, and makes the game feel like a glorified single-player campaign.

I'm sure we all have fond memories of things we did back in vanilla that had nothing to do with lore or storytelling. The game didn't make us do anything, and didn't even really provide much of a story. Yes, there was lore, but it wasn't shoved in our faces. The game was kind of a big sandbox with vague targets way off in the distance but it was up to us to figure out how we were going to get there. That added a lot to the adventure of the game. The game didn't present us with some overly scripted series of cutscenes and orchestrated mechanics, it just gave us a bunch of dumb boss fights and let us fill in the blanks ourselves. I don't even remember any of vanilla's storylines, but I do have countless memories of things like 4-manning my way through DM after somebody dropped at 2AM that we couldn't replace, of corpse hopping my way through zones to meet groups of friends in far away lands, of gathering up groups of people to go tackle quests that were too high level for any of us to do by ourselves... The game forced us to interact with each other and make our own stories as we struggled our way through sometimes obnoxious situations.

Years from now once Classic starts getting stale I would like to see Classic+ content that sticks to all the core values. Content that doesn't guide us through the game, but simply presents a new challenge and makes us figure it out on our own. Makes people go out and find people to help them make their way through the world just like the original Classic content does.

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I just wanna see the stuff that didn't make it to classic because they got greedy by releasing The Burning Crusade.
Things that include:

  • Karazan as a huge 40-man raid and its crypt.
  • All the naga buildings rotting in Designer's Island that are absolutely breathtaking in their scale being used.
  • Outland in its original form, which was more faithful to its Warcraft 2 and 3 iterations.
  • Ashbringer purification tied to Outland.
  • Eye of Azshara battleground.
  • Caverns of time, it has a ton of unused portals in vanilla.

Even things that made it to the game like Naxx got butchered by the imminent release of the expansion (as evidenced by its overly simplified attunement and lazy entrance placement, moved from an exclusive section of Stratholme to the middle of the plaguewood).

Other than the Ashbringer (which WOULD affect endgame) i'd love to see the rest simply because it's more content, even if it means Naxx will still be absolute endgame and it's ultimately meaningless to the meta, I just don't like art and content being dumped because of a deadline :sad: .

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Kradgger wrote:
2 weeks ago
  • All the naga buildings rotting in Designer's Island that are absolutely breathtaking in their scale being used.
  • Outland in its original form, which was more faithful to its Warcraft 2 and 3 iterations.
There are Naga buildings on dev island? TIL

   Kradgger
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teebling wrote:
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There are Naga buildings on dev island? TIL
There are like four cave entrances made out of highborne pillars covered by huge shells, all leading to different labyrinths, and a huge (and I mean HUGE) hollowed out kraken with a whole AQ-ish temple build both on top and inside, with stairs all over the place. Sadly all these remain untextured. I took the liberty of screenshotting the place.

Here's one of the cave entraces, they're pretty big:
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Here's the concept art for the kraken-temple:
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Here's the thing in its untextured flesh, it's way too big so vanilla's view distance is not enough to frame the whole thing in a single pic:
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And here's the man, the legend himself for scale:
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   MeatLumps Selexin
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Kradgger wrote:
2 weeks ago
I just wanna see the stuff that didn't make it to classic because they got greedy by releasing The Burning Crusade.
Things that include:
  • Karazan as a huge 40-man raid and its crypt.
  • All the naga buildings rotting in Designer's Island that are absolutely breathtaking in their scale being used.
  • Outland in its original form, which was more faithful to its Warcraft 2 and 3 iterations.
  • Ashbringer purification tied to Outland.
  • Eye of Azshara battleground.
  • Caverns of time, it has a ton of unused portals in vanilla.
This is why I'd rather see Classic+ than just going through the expansions again. There's a ton of unreleased content that was clearly planned for Vanilla which we never saw, either at all or until later expansions. And if its released as Classic+ content, rather than as an expansion, hopefully they'll do it in a way that doesn't invalidate previous content, which I think is the biggest drawback to expansions.

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JollyResolve6 wrote:
2 weeks ago
This is why I'd rather see Classic+ than just going through the expansions again.
This so much. For me we either get vanilla styled content à la OSRS, or we get a modern hardware-oriented vanilla. IMO TBC already had a lot of elements that differed from the original design philosophy (like unrestricted flying, designing classes based on gameplay instead of flavor and choosing dungeon difficulties like you're starting a Halo SP campaign)

Edit: As an addendum; The game was supposed to have a level 100 hard cap, with most raid content around levels 60+ and 70+, making 70 sort of like a soft cap. The whole game was supposed to have horizontal progression, meaning that someone that did stuff at the minimum level requirement would whoop your lvl 100 non-raider ass. We kind of got that itemization-wise, with things from MC/BWL (like https://classic.wowhead.com/item=17076/bonereavers-edge) being extremely good until the very endgame, even being BiS for PvP and in some other situations, or stuff from the mid 40's and 50's still being good for raiding. Ever since the first expansion the game's progression became extremely linear, with vertical skips when the next expansion drops (making the first rusty knife you get more powerful than the previous expansion's legendary weaponry, and a random bandit suddenly rivaling the big evil you just defeated's power-level)

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Kradgger wrote:
2 weeks ago
photo snip
Oh my GOD that is amazing! Thank you so much for sharing :)

   Kradgger Selexin
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