Selexin wrote: ↑

6 years ago

If a Warden Staff drops and there is a feral druid in the group, it's going to them. I would hate to see them miss out on a need roll and never be able to afford it from the AH. This isn't a blanket answer...

This is exactly why most people will roll need on BoE items. There is no blanket answer. The only way to maintain some semblance of order with loot distribution while also maintaining consistency in pugs is to simply need on BoE items. That wardens staff is VERY valuable for the feral. In a perfect world, should it go to him? Sure, maybe... But there is no denying that with a valuable item like Wardens, all players in the group could sell it and reinvest to obtain items of equal value. Therefore the wardens staff has equal value for all group members.

Wardens is actually a great talking point because it will drop in low level content, yet maintains its value at max level. Most druids will be feral while leveling and very few druids will remain feral at max level. So Wardens will default go to ferals (most/all druids) who are leveling, most of whom will retire this item to their bank at max, instead of being rolled on by the entire group? Defining a players individual needs is timely and complicated. The general rule that can be used to avoid ninjaing and ensure fair loot distribution while maintaining consistency is simply to roll need on BoE's.

With Blizzard taking a hands off approach to loot disputes, I cant see any reason that players wont be needing on all BoE's. I will say, that this often causes controversy in groups and I will also say that when I roll need and win, I allow all players who passed to /roll and compare their rolls to my initial roll.

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

6 years ago

I allow all players who passed to /roll and compare their rolls to my initial roll.

Unfortunately the World [of Warcraft] is not full of people that will take this fair and level headed approach. It's messy no matter which way you look at it. People are greedy, fights will ensue. Run dungeons with friends/guildies as often as possible, there is much more sane and sensible decisions made with friends. With PUGs, expect anything.

So the Druid deserves a Warden Staff (offspec item) more than the other members of the group deserve their Edgemaster's Handguards (mainspec item), Freezing Band (mainspec item), Stockade Pauldrons (mainspec item), etc?

I'd love an explanation for that thought process.

What about... everyone contributed equally and therefore should have an equal opportunity to obtain an upgrade to their character? Why is everyone so determined to arbitrarily play favorites?

And if you want to give up your roll, then fine that's your decision. But if you're gonna shame or "blacklist" other people simply for taking their earned random shot at an upgrade, then that just makes you a jerk.

I will do whatever the group does. If its normal BoE stuff not worth to much gold people can need and equip but if its some really expensive BoE I will write "all need" and click need and expect everyone to need, but I have also greeded in similar situations. It depends on the group and situation really. The vast majority of all players are nice and honest. Its usually not a problem.

Reiker wrote: ↑

6 years ago

So the Druid deserves a Warden Staff (offspec item) more than the other members of the group deserve

Selexin wrote: ↑

6 years ago

If a Warden Staff drops and there is a feral druid in the group, it's going to them.

If you were referring to my post, I specifically mentioned that if there was a feral druid in the group. I don't expect PUGs to follow my example though, PUGs can be such a mixed bag it's impossible to predict what some people will do.

In a guild group I would pass for anyone who could use, but in a pug? Are you really going to pass on a Teebu's because a random guy says he will use it?

Selexin wrote: ↑

6 years ago

I don't expect PUGs to follow my example though, PUGs can be such a mixed bag it's impossible to predict what some people will do.

This whole thread is about PUGs. It doesn't make any sense to discuss how groups of friends or guilds distribute their loot. Obviously they have other priorities, like raid progression.

And again, why does the feral Druid deserve his upgrade over the other 4 members of the group? Why is everyone in this thread trying to arbitrarily assign loot?

Everyone says that there's no argument for rolling need on BoEs, but as soon as an argument is proposed no one can seem to come up with a response.

Its all about talking it out. In the beginning of the instance it is totally acceptable to just say "Hey guys, everyone Need BoEs" and just go with that. It prevents that single ninja guy from waiting for everyone to greed and then needing.

Basically, if everyone rolls NEED on a BoE, then no one can ninja it and it's fair. While if people choose greed, they are vulnerable to some ninja choosing need just to make gold. It's not a big deal.

Avathara wrote: ↑

6 years ago

Its all about talking it out. In the beginning of the instance it is totally acceptable to just say "Hey guys, everyone Need BoEs" and just go with that. It prevents that single ninja guy from waiting for everyone to greed and then needing.

Basically, if everyone rolls NEED on a BoE, then no one can ninja it and it's fair. While if people choose greed, they are vulnerable to some ninja choosing need just to make gold. It's not a big deal.

Not fair for the person that really needed that piece of gear which someone just needed to sell on AH.

Lassekaae wrote: ↑

6 years ago

Avathara wrote: ↑

6 years ago

Its all about talking it out. In the beginning of the instance it is totally acceptable to just say "Hey guys, everyone Need BoEs" and just go with that. It prevents that single ninja guy from waiting for everyone to greed and then needing.

Basically, if everyone rolls NEED on a BoE, then no one can ninja it and it's fair. While if people choose greed, they are vulnerable to some ninja choosing need just to make gold. It's not a big deal.

Not fair for the person that really needed that piece of gear which someone just needed to sell on AH.

If that person doesn't win the roll they can buy it from the person who won, or from the AH later.

The idea is that a BoE is a resource you acquire with gold and not by running an instance like the BoPs, gold is valuable for everyone in different ways, so everyone needs that BoE. Anyone could say they need an item, take it, then sell it at the AH later. Trust issues in PUGs is exactly why everyone is needing on the BoE.

I just kind of always thought of it this way:
Need for upgrade
Greed for gold

And don't say gold is an upgrade, it can be used for anything from goblin hookers to companion pets. Gold does not = upgrade.

it is well defined by that point what is need and greed....so the answer to the poll: No.
On another note: In the beginning, most people will handle it wrong, but will learn toward endgame that needing for AH will completly destroy your reputation.

In my groups (since this is a per group thing and I will be starting all my groups myself, everyone is free to have their own rules) it will be all need unless the item is low gold cost. Why? Because of all the BoEs that could have dropped but didn’t, that you could sell that BoE for and purchase on the AH that dropped for someone else. A warden’s staff? More like a piece of Edgemaster’s dropped.

Even if there is someone who could use it in the group, there is always a chance they won’t equip it, and I have seen it plenty of times where no one checked on a high value item and what do you know? Didn’t equip. (Granted, I didn’t say anything because I wanted to get through the dungeon drama free and I had been able to roll on the item regardless so I had had my chance, plus I did not start this particular group myself.)

Point is, these items are exchangeable, and in my case the group member in question likely saw their level 40 mount as more important than Mark of Kern, as would everyone else in the group except me, who already had my mount settled. Does that mean I deserved it more? According to their loot rules yes, if I had decided to push it. But if I really wanted it I could go spend the money to buy one myself. Instead, some rich person’s alt got the ring and the group member got his mount.

Dungeon specific drops such as flasks are a bit different as they drop ONLY in the instance you’re running for that purpose, but like BoEs you should have already communicated what rules you want, or reserve it if you are able.

I understand there is a lot of disappointment people may feel at having their specific item drop, and feel justified in anger that they couldn’t receive it uncontested, but in my experience not many people want to equip that high cost item even when they won it for main spec, and it creates unnecessary drama trying to force them to equip it, at least in my opinion.

Also I would hate to get involved in a in-group debate on whether the feral, the hunter, or the ret is allowed to roll on something. All need simplifies unexpected drops greatly, and leaves that mess to expected drops.

Yo @Linguine long time no see!

teebling wrote: ↑

6 years ago

Yo @Linguine long time no see!

That release announcement got me.

This discussion seems pretty heated, but I suspect it is because most people join groups rather than make them, and I know many people, me included, have seen pug raids and groups try to pull a fast one.

Depends on the item, and usually everyone has a quick chat before rolls.

If a nice blue Boe drops while leveling/dungeon and some one actually needs it, they have to equip it on the spot.

If it's a bis item like edgemasters/wardens/something extremely valuable, in my experience the general consensus is every one needs, that edgemasters could be sold and the gold used to buy bis upgrades for another class. Some times the guy present who can use it probably has no intention of using it for its actual purpose.

This also goes for stuff like shadowfang. I don't care, if your not a twink I'm rolling need regardless, and would fully expect every one else too. Even if I'm rogue/warrior, an item like that doesn't get wasted on leveling.

Guild/mates runs then it's different again, you usually trust every one involved and it's up to you all to chat about it and have a conversation as adults. You might even pass the edgemasters to the warrior present or sell it to the guild for a heavily discounted price. But I've heard of situations where wardens in vanilla and boe's in TBC got sold and money split among the 5 present and they where happy, even if the item was bis for that class, they would rather have the gold.

I’m in the camp that sees valuable BoE’s as interchangeable with others via trade, so I would argue for everyone to need.
Of course this should be discussed prior to starting the dungeon, and pugs are different than guild groups.
Needing on every single green/blue of lesser value for “vendorspec”, “auction house spec”, disenchanting, or what have you will get you kicked before long and put on the list of people to avoid.

Selexin wrote: ↑

6 years ago

I just kind of always thought of it this way:
Need for upgrade
Greed for gold

And don't say gold is an upgrade, it can be used for anything from goblin hookers to companion pets. Gold does not = upgrade.

But it can be used for an upgrade, and in the gold limited environment that Classic surely will be, it most often will be used for an upgrade. So gold does = upgrade.

Nayami wrote: ↑

6 years ago

Just changed my vote to yes. My memories from Vanilla are slowly coming back to me. I still say the rules should be whatever everyone in the party agrees on, but.... The argument for everyone rolling need on all BoEs is sound. I know it might seem like going for gold is just being greedy, so that you should roll greed, but the simple fact is that everyone needs gold in Classic. This isn't going the be BFA, where gold is handed out like candy. There is your mount, spell learning costs, buying items off of the AH, etc. ad museum. You will constantly be broke if you aren't careful. It also reduces oops-I-rolled-need, and other more subtle forms of ninja looting. It is also eminently fair to everyone. Just my two cents.

So your argument for rolling need instead of greed is because you're greedy? It's a known convention that you only need stuff that would be an upgrade to you. If you're interested in the item so you can sell that (meaning you're greedy for it) you press greed. If you press need because you want to sell it, you're a dick that probably took it from someone for whom this item would be an upgrade for. And gold being a scarce resource doesn't even enter this argument.

juniorwins wrote: ↑

6 years ago

Nayami wrote: ↑

6 years ago

Just changed my vote to yes. My memories from Vanilla are slowly coming back to me. I still say the rules should be whatever everyone in the party agrees on, but.... The argument for everyone rolling need on all BoEs is sound. I know it might seem like going for gold is just being greedy, so that you should roll greed, but the simple fact is that everyone needs gold in Classic. This isn't going the be BFA, where gold is handed out like candy. There is your mount, spell learning costs, buying items off of the AH, etc. ad museum. You will constantly be broke if you aren't careful. It also reduces oops-I-rolled-need, and other more subtle forms of ninja looting. It is also eminently fair to everyone. Just my two cents.

So your argument for rolling need instead of greed is because you're greedy? It's a known convention that you only need stuff that would be an upgrade to you. If you're interested in the item so you can sell that (meaning you're greedy for it) you press greed. If you press need because you want to sell it, you're a dick that probably took it from someone for whom this item would be an upgrade for. And gold being a scarce resource doesn't even enter this argument.

Ok, yet again, this all depends on what the party agrees on in advance, but in parties that I lead the rule will be everyone roll need on all BoEs. You are reading way too much into button labels. Need/Greed, who cares? It's how things work that actually matter. Everyone puts in the same amount of effort, so everyone deserves an equal shot at items that are freely convertible into gold via the AH. Gold that can be spent on even more important things, like getting your first mount, or upgrading spells, or a host of other things that are much more important than equipping an item that will most likely get sharded after a few levels anyway. And the rule has important side effects, like reducing loot drama, ninja looting, etc. If you don't like the rule, don't join my party. It's literally that simple.

In a perfect world you agree on rules before you enter group content. However since that's most of the time just an ideal thought, I would say that when a valuable item drops it's a need for everyone in the group (unless you don't need it at all (be it to use it or sell it).

Slocain wrote: ↑

6 years ago

In a perfect world you agree on rules before you enter group content. However since that's most of the time just an ideal thought, I would say that when a valuable item drops it's a need for everyone in the group (unless you don't need it at all (be it to use it or sell it).

With how long it takes to form a group or even get to the instance entrance, there is plenty of time to discuss rules. Most active party leaders will have chat macros for it.

Nayami wrote: ↑

6 years ago

juniorwins wrote: ↑

6 years ago

Nayami wrote: ↑

6 years ago

Just changed my vote to yes. My memories from Vanilla are slowly coming back to me. I still say the rules should be whatever everyone in the party agrees on, but.... The argument for everyone rolling need on all BoEs is sound. I know it might seem like going for gold is just being greedy, so that you should roll greed, but the simple fact is that everyone needs gold in Classic. This isn't going the be BFA, where gold is handed out like candy. There is your mount, spell learning costs, buying items off of the AH, etc. ad museum. You will constantly be broke if you aren't careful. It also reduces oops-I-rolled-need, and other more subtle forms of ninja looting. It is also eminently fair to everyone. Just my two cents.

So your argument for rolling need instead of greed is because you're greedy? It's a known convention that you only need stuff that would be an upgrade to you. If you're interested in the item so you can sell that (meaning you're greedy for it) you press greed. If you press need because you want to sell it, you're a dick that probably took it from someone for whom this item would be an upgrade for. And gold being a scarce resource doesn't even enter this argument.

Ok, yet again, this all depends on what the party agrees on in advance, but in parties that I lead the rule will be everyone roll need on all BoEs. You are reading way too much into button labels. Need/Greed, who cares? It's how things work that actually matter. Everyone puts in the same amount of effort, so everyone deserves an equal shot at items that are freely convertible into gold via the AH. Gold that can be spent on even more important things, like getting your first mount, or upgrading spells, or a host of other things that are much more important than equipping an item that will most likely get sharded after a few levels anyway. And the rule has important side effects, like reducing loot drama, ninja looting, etc. If you don't like the rule, don't join my party. It's literally that simple.

I agree that you're free to implement whatever rules you want in the parties you lead, including even MLing all items to yourself. And I agree that as long as your party is ok with that, the game/system supports that aspect of play. But that's not the default state of parties. Unless stated otherwise by the party leader, the implicit agreement is that need/greed works like the implementation so obviously states - Need if you need, press greed if you're greedy for the item, or pass if you don't care.

If you join or create a group and start needing everything without the agreement that doing that is ok, what you're engaging in is simply toxic and selfish behaviour.

But to be honest, I don't think this will be a problem as most casuals that engage in this will quit before, or soon after reaching 60. So it's pointless to argue it here.