Most of my playtime on 1.12 has been on Horde Undead so I haven't been able to experience the strength of https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=20573/hardiness in a positive manner, but a friend of mine has been telling me it's not that big of a deal and he wants me to play Alliance with him, I want to play Horde Orc when Classic is out so I'm probably not going to have to deal with this on a negative manner but I want to know if I'm being overdramatic over this or if my friend is right that it doesn't matter that much.

I recently started playing a 60 Alliance Rogue and omg Hardiness is absolutely insane. It screws up rotations big time if you try risking it and fail an almost 1/3, or you can play safe and open with something subpar like https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=11290/garrote and lose almost all of your control over the fight if you don't get https://classic.wowhead.com/item=3776/c ... -poison-ii to proc early on. I honestly don't even know how to properly open on people without https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=1833/cheap-shot or https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=11269/ambush. If you fail it and reset you still have a high chance of missing it again, it just feels like you shouldn't even bother using Cheap Shot or https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=8643/kidney-shot against Orcs, not to mention that Orc Warriors that PvP will often spec into https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=12962/iron-will to bring that 30% resist chance up to 45%.

I feel like it's not even worth playing Alliance Rogue if you have an instant disadvantage versus every Orc Rogue regardless of gear or skill, I know Dwarfs can remove https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=2094/blind with https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=20594/stoneform but to me it seems good but not as good and gamechanging as Hardiness is.

Hardiness gains worth based on class.

A Warlock pvp trinket doesn't remove stuns so the Rogue vs Warlock duels are tilted more in favour of the Rogue if the Warlock is not an Orc.

Just have to say I LOVE playing orcs in WoW so I consider myself as some kind of expert on them.

First fact you need to know about https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=20573/hardiness is, that there is no pseudo random in WoW, that means in you could resist 10 stuns in row, but if you fail to resist 4 stuns, you dont automatically resist the 5th.

Second on the hardiness / rogue interaction: if your https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=11286/gouge is resisted (yes it counts too for hardiness) you don't get CP, if https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=8643/kidney-shot is resisted, you lose all the CP you had build up.

Third on https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=12962/iron-will and hardiness mechanics, they stack multiplicative, so its not 40%, more like 36% which is still pretty scary for your rogue (you still get full 15% for charms).

If you could parse hardiness with a good sample size, like 10k stuns you might get these numbers, but ingame it feels pretty binary, so either it works, or it doesn't.

What it means for actual PvP is to keep in mind that orcs have a pretty decent chance to resist your stuns, so they are no longer reliable tools for lockdown. That changes your approach on orcs a lot as rogue, because its either burst or bleed and if your poison aint applied you pretty much lost.
And because hardiness isn't cooldown based, its a very nice thing to have in a PvP situation because its always up.
I have no experience if stuns resisted with hardiness count for diminishing returns on player crowd control, but because its already unreliable to stun orcs, It might be hard to find out.

So hardiness is very strong, maybe even the selling point of orcs, but on the other hand there are way more things to consider for picking your race / faction than just stun resist. For example: do you like the style? The cities? Are you intrested in world pvp? And so on. Orcs are awesome, but its not all about hardiness

I can relate. I recently wanted to try this out on a lvl60 pserver, and as a rogue, it does indeed screw you up big time.

In regards to the opener, I believe that if you are spec'd into https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=14095/improved-sap you should be able to open with CS without being affected.

I am not 100% sure tho. Maybe someone else can confirm?

MeatLumps wrote: ↑

6 years ago

Vhenx wrote: ↑

6 years ago

In regards to the opener, I believe that if you are spec'd into https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=14095/improved-sap you should be able to open with CS without being affected.

I don't understand, how does improved sap affect cheapshot?

Sorry, I meant that if you Sap your target first, you should then be able to successfully CS without it getting resisted.
It is something I heard several times but did not try out myself.

Vhenx wrote: ↑

6 years ago

In regards to the opener, I believe that if you are spec'd into https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=14095/improved-sap you should be able to open with CS without being affected.

I am not 100% sure tho. Maybe someone else can confirm?

I don't see why it would work and I don't remember this workaround from vanilla/tbc. It kind of sounds like a abuse of incorrect pserver coding (like critsitting) and I would not call it a solution until it's confirmed to work in classic.

FTHforever wrote: ↑

6 years ago

Second on the hardiness / rogue interaction: if your https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=11286/gouge is resisted (yes it counts too for hardiness) you don't get CP, if https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=8643/kidney-shot is resisted, you lose all the CP you had build up.

So hardiness is very strong, maybe even the selling point of orcs, but on the other hand there are way more things to consider for picking your race / faction than just stun resist. For example: do you like the style? The cities? Are you intrested in world pvp? And so on. Orcs are awesome, but its not all about hardiness

Thanks for the info, I did not know that Gouge was affected by Hardiness as well but it makes sense since I do get a lot of Gouge resists against Orcs but I didn't realize it was related to Hardiness. I'm definitely not going to be playing an Alliance Rogue now. I don't like Alliance very much and I like World PvP a lot too so I'm fine with playing Orc.

Vhenx wrote: ↑

6 years ago

I can relate. I recently wanted to try this out on a lvl60 pserver, and as a rogue, it does indeed screw you up big time.

In regards to the opener, I believe that if you are spec'd into https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=14095/improved-sap you should be able to open with CS without being affected.

I am not 100% sure tho. Maybe someone else can confirm?

Can't speak for retail 1.12 but I tried this on one of the popular vanilla servers just now with an Orc friend on Horde and he was still resisting stuns while sapped.

Swans wrote: ↑

6 years ago

Can't speak for retail 1.12 but I tried this on one of the popular vanilla servers just now with an Orc friend on Horde and he was still resisting stuns while sapped.

Thank you for checking that out! Then we are all doomed

Swans wrote: ↑

6 years ago

Thanks for the info, I did not know that Gouge was affected by Hardiness as well but it makes sense since I do get a lot of Gouge resists against Orcs but I didn't realize it was related to Hardiness. I'm definitely not going to be playing an Alliance Rogue now. I don't like Alliance very much and I like World PvP a lot too so I'm fine with playing Orc.

Yes man, never can go wrong with green! /flex

Nice sidefact about orcs https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=20572/blood-fury does not break stealth, so use it for your big https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=11269/ambush bursts or harder ticking https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=11290/garrote

Swans wrote: ↑

6 years ago

FTHforever wrote: ↑

6 years ago

Second on the hardiness / rogue interaction: if your https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=11286/gouge is resisted (yes it counts too for hardiness) you don't get CP, if https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=8643/kidney-shot is resisted, you lose all the CP you had build up.

So hardiness is very strong, maybe even the selling point of orcs, but on the other hand there are way more things to consider for picking your race / faction than just stun resist. For example: do you like the style? The cities? Are you intrested in world pvp? And so on. Orcs are awesome, but its not all about hardiness

Thanks for the info, I did not know that Gouge was affected by Hardiness as well but it makes sense since I do get a lot of Gouge resists against Orcs but I didn't realize it was related to Hardiness. I'm definitely not going to be playing an Alliance Rogue now. I don't like Alliance very much and I like World PvP a lot too so I'm fine with playing Orc.

Vhenx wrote: ↑

6 years ago

I can relate. I recently wanted to try this out on a lvl60 pserver, and as a rogue, it does indeed screw you up big time.

In regards to the opener, I believe that if you are spec'd into https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=14095/improved-sap you should be able to open with CS without being affected.

I am not 100% sure tho. Maybe someone else can confirm?

Can't speak for retail 1.12 but I tried this on one of the popular vanilla servers just now with an Orc friend on Horde and he was still resisting stuns while sapped.

Sap doesn't reduce chance to resist stuns, but you can sap your target into a cheapshot. If you angle yourself properly, the cheapshot will go off, but you won't autoattack. This allows you to simply wait five seconds and cheapshot again if your target resisted.

Okay, so that's where it comes from. So you increase the reliability of the opening stun, but still got that https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=8643/kidney-shot being unreliable problem.

FTHforever wrote: ↑

6 years ago

Okay, so that's where it comes from. So you increase the reliability of the opening stun, but still got that https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=8643/kidney-shot being unreliable problem.

Gouge as well. D:

"How strong is Hardiness, really?" It is the strongest racial for pvp in the game, by a fairly wide margin. Considering base stun resist is somewhere around 5% and hardiness gives 25%, you sit at about 30% stun resist as an Orc. But what does that mean, and why does it matter? It matters because hardiness is a passive and has no internal cooldown. Thats right, 2 rogues jumping you simultaneously and you could end up resisting both cheap shots and settling a very easy 2 vs 1 situation. Oh, but isnt WoTF better? I mean, its an actual controlled CD and it removes fear! No. It isnt even close to as good as hardiness for pvp and here is why...

3 classes will primarily be using fears in pvp. Warlocks, warriors and priests. Warlocks are under represented on alliance side because horde side typically run about 40-50% undead. The high population of undead, reduces the amount of warlocks that are played on alliance and thus indirectly increases the value of hardiness and decreases the value of WoTF. The more undead, the less ally warlocks, the worse WoTF is. Undead population and warlock under representation has been consistent since retail vanilla and continues today on private servers. Is WoTF better than Hardiness against a lock? Yes! But you wont be facing enough warlocks to get value out of WoTF.

Warriors use more stuns than they do fear. Warriors charge, intercept, grenade stun, tidal charm, mace spec through arms for chance to stun, and use items like unstoppable force (the most common and easily accessible epic 2 hander for warriors/ret paladins/shamans at 60 with a built in stun), concussion blow, etc etc... Yes warriors have a fear. But they have far more stuns. Over the course of a 2 miniute engagement with a warrior he will have one Intimidating shout. It will fear you for 8 seconds... Is that impactful? YES! But lets consider that he can charge which stuns you, and can intercept on a 30 sec cooldown (4 times in 2 mins), with mace spec and an unstoppable force every swing has potential for a stun and the most impactful portion of any pvp encounter, good consumable usage through nades which will stun you! Hardiness outvalues WoTF against warriors.

Now lets look at priests. Psychic scream on a 30 second cooldown. As a rank 13 spriest I can tell you, that I relied FAR more on downranking my shadow word pain to proc blackout stuns, than I ever did on my fear. Priests have serious mana issues, and psychic costs 15% base mana... This isnt designed to be used on cooldown. A good priest will hold onto that fear and rely entirely on blackout stuns. Well isnt it better to counter their big fear then? No. As a priest I am investing a crazy amount of my globals on casting rank 1 shadow word pain for blackout stuns and depending heavily on well place grenade stuns. If you are resisting these, its massive. Infact, blackout is so good that a lot of pvp healing priests, take blackout specifically to spam rank 1 shadowword pain for peeling and team CC.

Generally speaking, Orc is the best pvp pick ingame for every class, however depending on your class, it can be even better. Lets look at warlocks... You have a spell stone that removes magical effects, you have a fel hunter to remove magical effects and you have a pvp trinket that allows you to remove fear... You have 3 obvious answers to fear. You have no answer for stuns. The same thing could be said for warrior. Warriors have many answers for fear and WoTF is redundant. Ontop of that, tryhard pvpers will likely roll engineer/blacksmith (*depending on their class) to pickup a Glimmering Mithril Insignia. Never heard of it? BS trinket that "Use: Increases armor by 50, all resistances by 10 and grants immunity to Fear for 30 sec. (cooldown 10 min)". Thats right, " Immunity to fear for 30 sec. The equivalent to free action potions for stuns.
https://classicdb.ch/?item=10418

Okay, so of the 3 fear classes Hardiness works better as a counter for 2/3rds of them and warlocks are underplayed... But how else will I get value from hardiness? Hammer of Justice (paladin), Bear Bash, Pounce (druid), Intimidate, Improved concus shot (hunter), Impact (mage), Kidney shot, Cheap shot, Mace spec(rogue), War stomp (tauren - duels), Intercept, Charge, Concuss Blow, Mace spec (warrior), Blackout (priest), various items like tidal charm (mandatory for high level pvp) and unstoppable force, grenades (used by all serious pvpers and top tier raiders)... I mean the list goes on and on... 30% chance to resist, no internal cooldown... This doesnt even account for the other incredibly strong racials an Orc has (pending your class).

Look at that list and consider what that means... Lets pretend youre fighting a Ret paladin. He has almost no gap closers... His win condition is stalling with line of sight and mitigation/immunity, using a ton of consumes, or landing his HoJ. Perhaps he can use repentance etc etc etc... For most circumstances, the paladin needs to land that HoJ on a 45 second cooldown. As an Orc, you have a 30% chance to completely resist and nullify that paladin. Here is a quote from a fairly known paladin on the Nostalrius forums: "Paladins have no gap closers, all their spells can be debuffed, and literally become just an auto attack damage class. Hammer of justice is 1 of 2 spells >excluding repetance< that allow us to be any threat..."-Rile

What about rogues? Hardiness is so strong, most good rogues wont even open with cheap shot. But a lot of rogues need to stun lock you, depending on your gear and class, and ultimately you have a 30% chance of resisting... If a rogue does choose to open you with cheap shot, most will because they dont understand the value hardiness has, you have a 30% chance of an EASY upset. "The rogue will just vanish and reset!" Sure! Maybe... Or maybe you will tag them. Either way, theyve wasted a very important cooldown and gained nothing only to potentially reopen you and be resisted again. Rogues arent just losing the stun. They are losing their surprise, their positioning, their energy and possibly their stealth if you can tag them.

I could go on all day... And I sort of already have. You can start to see the picture. Hardiness simply out values all other racials. It out values everything in pvp from group combat to world pvp to duels... It is the BiS pvp racial definitively. Nothing else comes close. If you are building your character to specifically counter alliance warlocks (who will be severely underpopulated) you can make a strong case for WoTF if you arent a warrior, but otherwise Hardiness is better. In my opinion, Hardiness could be nerfed to 15%, giving you a 20% stun resist and it would still be better than anything else. Can you offer a hypothetical circumstance where WoTF or War Stomp are better than Hardiness? Probably. But over the course of playing Classic for thousands of hours, Hardiness will serve you better in pvp the majority of the time.

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

6 years ago

I could go on all day... And I sort of already have.

Damn, thanks for the effort and detail you put into this post!

Have some https://classic.wowhead.com/item=7676/thistle-tea on me dawg, cheers!

Stfuppercut you should make an account - I’ll transfer these posts over for you if you want

@ShamelessEU

Haha, beautiful

kvmphvre wrote: ↑

6 years ago

@ShamelessEU

Haha, beautiful

Payo is one of my favorite vanilla youtubers, he is hilarious :D

If hardiness works on knockout effects in classic then it should also work against sap. It was considered a knockout effect until patch 2.4 when it changed into it's own category.

n_i_h wrote: ↑

6 years ago

If hardiness works on knockout effects in classic then it should also work against sap. It was considered a knockout effect until patch 2.4 when it changed into it's own category.

It doesn't and shouldn't.

n_i_h wrote: ↑

6 years ago

It doesn't and shouldn't.

I know that it doesn't on private servers. I'm just not sure that's correct. In vanilla wow gouge and sap were both Disorient/Knockout/Incapacitate effects depending on the patch since they changed the name a few times. Why would it work against one and not the other?

Are we sure the number is good ? It’s going to be 25% on classic?

Terrier74 wrote: ↑

6 years ago

Are we sure the number is good ? It’s going to be 25% on classic?

Assuming they dont change it, yes. Hardiness is 25% stun resistance.

Everything that needs to be said has already been said, but all I can say is; Hardiness is just really, really strong. I have always thought it was strong, even when I played Vanilla back in all those days. People always praised Will of the Forsaken (which is also good) but Hardiness overshadows it in my opinion.

Firelord wrote: ↑

6 years ago

People always praised Will of the Forsaken (which is also good) but Hardiness overshadows it in my opinion.

This trend continues on private and will likely spill over into Classic with amount of ill informed players... The more players who use WoTF though will indirectly buff hardiness so I am totally okay with this.