Recently I've been asked a "much debated" question by my guild in our discord.

"How will loot be distributed in our raids?"

My intention is to use a Loot Council and have experienced class leaders in place to assist the council with any difficult decisions. Some of the guild agree, some prefer a DKP style system.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on the topic, reasons for and against, examples of scenarios from your own experiences etc.

I'd also like to invite my Guildies to use this forum as an open channel for discussion.

I'll leave a poll too, you can change your vote at anytime if you change your opinions after reading this thread.

Thanks,
Soup

DKP makes personal issues a non-issue and in large guilds those are certain to happen. In case of council, people might suggest there's some bias and there might be because of human nature. Even if there won't be any, people might feel unhappy anyway, just not share it.

In every guild I was part of, there was DKP with certain exceptions (MT etc).

Merode wrote: ↑

6 years ago

DKP makes personal issues a non-issue and in large guilds those are certain to happen. In case of council, people might suggest there's some bias and there might be because of human nature. Even if there won't be any, people might feel unhappy anyway, just not share it.

In every guild I was part of, there was DKP with certain exceptions (MT etc).

DKP also has "personal bias" because it's made and designed by people. It might seem fairer because it involves numbers, but numbers do nothing but add another layer of complexity and ambiguity to the same thought process behind Loot Council, which is often to reward people based on attendance and performance.

It's biased because at the end of the day, someone still has to decide how to award those DKP points, which activities are worth DKP points, how much each activity ranks against each other in terms of DKP points, which items are worth how many DKP points and so forth. Not to mention the fact that you have to constantly come up with systems to prevent people from abusing whatever system you have in place: issues such as DKP hoarding, DKP collusion to have minimum bids on items, etc.

And also, in every guild I was part of LC was used If you have capable, competent and trustworthy leaders, it's the best possible system. That's why LC survived over the years whereas DKP or EP/GP is barely used by most guilds nowadays.

I'll be copying and pasting this from a different discussion because it's relevant.

The problem I have with DKP is that, at the end of the day, with the amount of effort you'd have to put into that system in order to make it work you might as well put it into refining your criteria and judgment for Loot Council. Even so, it would still be an inferior system to Loot Council given that corrective measures against unforeseen circumstances can only be accounted for a priori in a DKP system whereas the Loot Council can and will always step in and apply as soon as unforeseen circumstances occur. In other words, if something unforeseen and undesirable happens, you have to oblige by the rules you've set in with DKP, whereas with Loot Council you can always step in and say "no, we won't do this, and here is why".

Even if you were to put your mind up to the task of designing a DKP system which:

a) adequately accounts for the value of each DKP eligible activity in terms with some objective quantifiable metric and records these activities flawlessly
b) provides an adequate minimum bid for each and every single item inside a raid proportional to that item's utility and rarity against arranged bids
c) counters DKP hoarding and inflation without punishing veterans
d) rewards a different number of DKP points for a different variety of raids progress (progress raids, farm raids, more difficult bosses etc.)
e) confers a motivating method of converting DKP points from one phase to another as more raids become available


You could still have undesirable situations where Warlocks are getting an over the mages even though they're doing DPS that's worse than a Hunter's pet in that current content phase. That situation might be fair from a DKP perspective and it might be fair from the Warlock's perspective, but it would definitely be a loss for the whole raid - whereas with Loot Council, I can step in and see if I can explain it to my fellow Warlocks that it's more important right now that we think as a raid group and less so about who can get which epic items first, that their patience and perseverance will not be forgotten and it will be their day in later content patches and onward where they will be favored over the mages on these matters. Or sometimes it's the other way around, and I will step in and say "Warlocks have received nothing in the past 2 months, let's allow this drop go to them this time around because otherwise I fear they might be leaving for other guilds soon".

Even if they disagree with me, I believe that a genuine, human explanation is far better than a "it's just numbers, bro" excuse.

Nymis wrote: ↑

6 years ago

DKP also has "personal bias" because it's made and designed by people. It might seem fairer because it involves numbers, but numbers do nothing but add another layer of complexity and ambiguity to the same thought process behind Loot Council, which is often to reward people based on attendance and performance.

It's biased because at the end of the day, someone still has to decide how to award those DKP points, which activities are worth DKP points, how much each activity ranks against each other in terms of DKP points, which items are worth how many DKP points and so forth. Not to mention the fact that you have to constantly come up with systems to prevent people from abusing whatever system you have in place: issues such as DKP hoarding, DKP collusion to have minimum bids on items, etc.

DKP has no personal bias, at least in sensible guilds. There should be rules posted on the forum from day one, which clearly state what awards DKP. In case of my guilds it was time spent in raids and boss kills (first kills with a little bonus). There's also loot table with price of each item. If there are some concerns about price of particular item, it is discussed. This way, if you spend time in raids and contribute, you're going to have most DKP. It rewards attendance and performance without need for human judgement. It also plays into human psychology, because even if you didn't get any loot or raid turned out a total failure, you still earned some DKP which in your head means some progress.

Nymis wrote: ↑

6 years ago

And also, in every guild I was part of LC was used If you have capable, competent and trustworthy leaders, it's the best possible system. That's why LC survived over the years whereas DKP or EP/GP is barely used by most guilds nowadays.

99% of time it might be true, but then again there are stories about GMs literally ninjaing items. Just the other day a guest on Countdown To Classic mentioned his GM ninjaing one half of Thunderfury. I understand however that this is a very radical example. Nevertheless I still think that loot distribution based on a couple people's subjective judgement is bad choice and will eventually make people unhappy. Numbers are great because numbers are objective.

I honestly don't know any guild on my realm during Vanilla that wouldn't use DKP. Loot council might work in case of guilds made of RL friends.

Nymis wrote: ↑

6 years ago

Even if you were to put your mind up to the task of designing a DKP system which:
a) adequately accounts for the value of each DKP eligible activity in terms with some objective quantifiable metric and records these activities flawlessly
b) provides an adequate minimum bid for each and every single item inside a raid proportional to that item's utility and rarity against arranged bids
c) counters DKP hoarding and inflation without punishing veterans
d) rewards a different number of DKP points for a different variety of raids progress (progress raids, farm raids, more difficult bosses etc.)
e) confers a motivating method of converting DKP points from one phase to another as more raids become available


You could still have undesirable situations where Warlocks are getting an over the mages even though they're doing DPS that's worse than a Hunter's pet in that current content phase. That situation might be fair from a DKP perspective and it might be fair from the Warlock's perspective, but it would definitely be a loss for the whole raid - whereas with Loot Council, I can step in and see if I can explain it to my fellow Warlocks that it's more important right now that we think as a raid group and less so about who can get which epic items first, that their patience and perseverance will not be forgotten and it will be their day in later content patches and onward where they will be favored over the mages on these matters. Or sometimes it's the other way around, and I will step in and say "Warlocks have received nothing in the past 2 months, let's allow this drop go to them this time around because otherwise I fear they might be leaving for other guilds soon".

Even if they disagree with me, I believe that a genuine, human explanation is far better than a "it's just numbers, bro" excuse.

The thing is, if those rules apply to all people, it will be mostly (but not perfectly) just. I don't like your example with warlocks. In my opinion if the item IS designed for your class, you might get it. Even if it will not be the best thing from min-maxing perspective of your guild. However some items are strictly limited to a group of classes which should also be clearly stated on your forum (not everything is a hunter weapon). There's no need to come up with rules, because most of the time you're copying some better guild's rules (at least in our case) and just adjust it.

I would also like to mention that there are two versions of DKP. One is with bidding which might be very weak and then I agree with you. The other one is with fixed item prices and people with most DKP are simply asked if they want them. There are also some sensible rules: if you have , you won't get ..

I think there is a decent case for both.

Loot council: risk of abuse, more efficient
DKP: fairer per-person, less efficient

I lean DKP - does it really matter if a drop goes to someone less optimal if they put in the time? - but what really matters is what your guildies are keen on. Poll them, discuss it, poll them again.

Merode wrote: ↑

6 years ago

DKP has no personal bias, at least in sensible guilds. There should be rules posted on the forum from day one, which clearly state what awards DKP. In case of my guilds it was time spent in raids and boss kills (first kills with a little bonus). There's also loot table with price of each item. If there are some concerns about price of particular item, it is discussed. This way, if you spend time in raids and contribute, you're going to have most DKP. It rewards attendance and performance without need for human judgement. It also plays into human psychology, because even if you didn't get any loot or raid turned out a total failure, you still earned some DKP which in your head means some progress.

Just because you announce the rules a priori does not mean there's no bias involved. If it's subject to be discussed then there is inherently a bias in it, don't you think? And what do you mean "without human judgment" - it still takes human judgment to decide who gets what DKP where and when and how much at what point in the game, right? Not to mention how, when and for how much you can convert that DKP from one raid to another - so on and so forth. This is like trying to write a law for every case and sub-case and situation in existence versus judging matters on a case by case basis.

And having LC doesn't mean you abandon all and every form of non-subjective metering. You can still do a simple attendance list at the start of every raid just like you would on DKP, and still demand a certain percentage/number of minimum raids to be attended before you consider people for loot.

Merode wrote: ↑

6 years ago

his GM ninjaing one half of Thunderfury

If you think throwing your guild away for half of a Thunderfury is worth it, you probably didn't have that good of a guild to begin with - but allowing Rogues to get TF because tanks had to spend all their DKP on tank items is just as silly. Given a situation where you're forced to trust some stranger, I think you can safely trust the person who has the most to lose in case of a bad call.

Merode wrote: ↑

6 years ago

Nevertheless I still think that loot distribution based on a couple people's subjective judgement is bad choice and will eventually make people unhappy. Numbers are great because numbers are objective.

But those numbers are still arbitrarily chosen by people. And like I said, the problem with DKP is that if something unexpected happens, something neither you nor anyone who designed that system accounted for it beforehand - there is nothing you can do about it. You can't step in and say "wait, hold on, this isn't right we can't do this" - even if you're right and what you're proposing is the fair thing to do, even if most people agree that is the case.

Merode wrote: ↑

6 years ago

Loot council might work in case of guilds made of RL friends.

That's definitely where Loot Council doesn't work

Nymis wrote: ↑

6 years ago

Just because you announce the rules a priori does not mean there's no bias involved. If it's subject to be discussed then there is inherently a bias in it, don't you think? And what do you mean "without human judgment" - it still takes human judgment to decide who gets what DKP where and when and how much at what point in the game, right? Not to mention how, when and for how much you can convert that DKP from one raid to another - so on and so forth. This is like trying to write a law for every case and sub-case and situation in existence versus judging matters on a case by case basis.

And having LC doesn't mean you abandon all and every form of non-subjective metering. You can still do a simple attendance list at the start of every raid just like you would on DKP, and still demand a certain percentage/number of minimum raids to be attended before you consider people for loot.

What do you mean by bias in DKP? It's like saying there's bias with money in that somebody decided how much bread and water costs. The rules of DKP apply to everyone, even GM (with exception of MT/OT). Loot council however might reward Johnny instead of Maggie, because Johnny is Mr Popular and Maggie is silent dweller. Both members raid regularly so it's hard to say there's bias, but you can tell Maggie is upset about it after a couple weeks of being second class citizen.

It's as easy as saying - one hour of raiding is 1DKP, boss is 3DKP, BWL boss is 5DKP. And then it applies to both Johnny and Maggie and if Maggie is unhappy, it's only because Maggie didn't have time to raid. Still, if they are good guildmates, Johnny can pass on item so Maggie is happy.

Nymis wrote: ↑

6 years ago

(...) but allowing Rogues to get TF because tanks had to spend all their DKP on tank items is just as silly.

As I said, MT and even first OT weren't subjected to DKP and had absolute priority on tanking gear.

Nymis wrote: ↑

6 years ago

But those numbers are still arbitrarily chosen by people.

But it also applies to everyone, so it's hard for it to be biased if creator is also subjected to it.

Nymis wrote: ↑

6 years ago

And like I said, the problem with DKP is that if something unexpected happens, something neither you nor anyone who designed that system accounted for it beforehand - there is nothing you can do about it. You can't step in and say "wait, hold on, this isn't right we can't do this" - even if you're right and what you're proposing is the fair thing to do, even if most people agree that is the case.

Can you name any example? In my experience nothing extraordinary ever happened that required DKP rules to be rewritten.

Merode wrote: ↑

6 years ago

There are also some sensible rules: if you have Azuresong Mageblade, you won't get Staff of Dominance..

Like I said, with all the time and effort you're putting in designing these rules and exceptions you might as well sink into refining your loot decision process.

emberfiend wrote: ↑

6 years ago

I lean DKP - does it really matter if a drop goes to someone less optimal if they put in the time? - but what really matters is what your guildies are keen on. Poll them, discuss it, poll them again.

Yes, there can be a lot of bias with LC, that is why having objective perspectives when deciding who gets loot is of utmost importance.
Those perspectives are the only thing that can validate your claims against any accusation of personal bias - because they represent the sole means by which your judgment on the loot council can be challenged by others effectively. So it's not that it would burn my soul to let Warlocks get a Mageblade before Mages, but if my guiding perspective in terms of loot distribution isn't grounded on anything serious or objective and I'm letting the Warlocks get that because "whatever, they put in just as much time as anyone else", I'm going to be inviting all sorts of nasties into my raid, because it tells them that "time invested in raids" is my guiding perspective on who should get loot and they stop caring about other relevant factors (performance, consumables etc.).

Philosophically, I think it all comes down to collectivism vs individualism - do you want what is best for the collective or do you want what is best for the individual. They both have pros and cons, but I lean on the collectivist side of things when it comes to raids because they should be, in theory, collectivist in nature on the long run. People thinking as a group will always be ahead of those who think as individuals.

Nymis wrote: ↑

6 years ago

Philosophically, I think it all comes down to collectivism vs individualism - do you want what is best for the collective or do you want what is best for the individual. They both have pros and cons, but I lean on the collectivist side of things when it comes to raids because they should be, in theory, collectivist in nature on the long run. People thinking as a group will always be ahead of those who think as individuals.

I guess we just had different goals. Me and my guild, we realized we wouldn't be the best guild even on our realm. It was probably more about fun in our case. I can't imagine joining guild wherein it'd predetermined by council what I'll be wearing and when. I believe in commitment and reward for it.

I guess what you described might have workd in 3-4 best guilds in the world.

Merode wrote: ↑

6 years ago

What do you mean by bias in DKP?[...]
It's as easy as saying - one hour of raiding is 1DKP, boss is 3DKP, BWL boss is 5DKP.

I am not saying that the way the rules are being applied is biased - I am saying that the way these rules are being conceived is biased and prone to misjudgment, exactly the same as the Loot Council. At least with LC you can appeal that decision and have a conversation right then and there about it - with DKP you can't really rollback and say "we're not applying these rules here today because reasons", otherwise you're back on LC.

For example: what if I think one hour of raiding is worth 1.5 DKP if it's progress or 0.5 DKP if you're getting carried as a Trial/regular Raider? And you mean to say that the first tank and spank bosses of MC are worth just as much as the Rag - that doesn't sound fair. What about aqual quints, how much DKP should that be worth? What if I'm raiding with the most expensive consumables on me as a mage for an extra 100 DPS - should I get as much extra DKP as someone who's raiding with the most expensive consumables as a Warlock while only pulling an extra 20 DPS, even though his consumables are much cheaper than mine?

The more you wrap your head around designing the perfect DKP system the more you realize how impossible that task is - and consistently applying bad and biased decisions, even if you apply them fairly to everyone, doesn't relieve the problem. It just pointlessly over-complicates matters, and you're still down to human decisions in the end, except everyone's more confident because you've expressed the exact metrics in numbers over time instead of quick and educated rational decisions taken on the spot with a threat meter, a damage meter, the Class Lead and an attendance sheet.

Merode wrote: ↑

6 years ago

I guess we just had different goals. Me and my guild, we realized we wouldn't be the best guild even on our realm. It was probably more about fun in our case. I can't imagine joining guild wherein it'd predetermined by council what I'll be wearing and when.

I'm not doing that either and I certainly don't plan that either! But when loot drops, you still want to maximize your group's potential, right? Even if you're not the best on the server, you'd still want to get better as a group doing what you do.

I embrace the bias and I would rather stay open about it and let people contest decisions factually rather than contest DKP points just like I did up there. I'd rather talk damage/threat meters, attendance sheets, AH prices and so forth than DKP points (why is this worth as much as that, etc.).

If I say "I want the best upgrade for our guild, we've decided this class should get it for the following reasons, we've decided this person from this class should get it for these reasons" - I think it allows players to contest this decision more easily saying "nah, this item is better for this other class" or "nah, this other dude could use a better improvement with it" and then we can explain what we've seen on the damage meters and threat meters and come to a consensus together - instead of saying: "he had the most DKP, nothing else matters, conversation is over."

The most important thing about taking good decisions in my opinion is allowing people to contest them. If you don't trust the loot council (and you shouldn't) try to poke holes in their logic as much as you can - it's the only way they can improve their process.

Predetermination is just a guideline, even if an item is "destined" for mages I'm still going to look at the threat meters and pass if they're up there. Arming mages with powerful weapons is stupid if they're going to kill themselves (and the raid) with them I don't think you can design a DKP system to factor in these... sort of people.

I understand the sentiment but with such cold logic, hunters will always be lower in DPS than rogues and fury warriors. Same with warlocks having lower dps than mages, not to mention warlocks will be higher on threat. So the conclusion is, game is biased in that some classes perform better. Would these classes be considered worse in the eyes of council? I hoenstly don't know, since this system is new to me.

Nymis, you seem keen on quantifying things, so here's a thought: what if regular upgrades keep people excited about raiding? Roughly speaking, DKP ensures that the interval between upgrades is minimized for each person. What is an excited warlock who puts in extra effort over the following two weeks worth to the guild, as opposed to an extra 0.07% raid DPS from giving it to the mage? :P

Merode wrote: ↑

6 years ago

I understand the sentiment but with such cold logic, hunters will always be lower in DPS than rogues and fury warriors. Same with warlocks having lower dps than mages, not to mention warlocks will be higher on threat. So the conclusion is, game is biased in that some classes perform better. Would these classes be considered worse in the eyes of council? I hoenstly don't know, since this system is new to me.

As a Warlock class lead, I would have to consult with them and see their sentiments on the matter. This is yet another thing DKP cannot account for - like I said, if I'm stepping in saying "Warlocks haven't received a piece of loot in 2 months, let this go to them" and people will say "yeah, that's reasonable" it's fair game.

Trying to account for this in DKP is damn impossible. Should Warlocks have the same rights as Mages in the first patches? No, because Mages do more damage, their consumables are more expensive, the upgrades on them are more justified. Should Warlocks always be behind Mages? No, because that's bullshit to them. Where do we draw the line? As far away to give items to the Mages, as often as we need to keep the Warlocks playing. You can't design point system that can do a better job than people talking it over. Human problems require human solutions.

emberfiend wrote: ↑

6 years ago

Roughly speaking, DKP ensures that the interval between upgrades is minimized for each person. What is an excited warlock who puts in extra effort over the following two weeks worth to the guild, as opposed to an extra 0.07% raid DPS from giving it to the mage? :P

But effort and need involved in the raid is not leveled out evenly. If you're just looking at it from the perspective of "how many raiding hours did everyone contribute" then yeah, DKP does make sense. But tanks for instance put in a lot more effort for the raid and the raid needs them to be well geared. Even people in favor of DKP agree you can't make them roll for items the same as other classes.

An item which gives a mage 0.07% extra damage goes to that mage because he's doing 20-50% more damage than the Warlock behind him and because he's paying for some consumables that the Warlock is probably not paying - or he's paying them at a different price, who knows.
That extra 0.07% raid damage means faster clear times, fewer wipes and so forth. That extra 0.07% damage also means that people will be less likely to think "oh, he's a biased asshole, he gave that item because of X, Y, Z reasons" and more likely to think "alright, he gave that item to him because of extra raid damage, fair enough".

We're going to have "excited" Warlocks too, but you can't base all your decisions on maximizing people's excitement. Excitement doesn't do DPS better or tank better, and people do want to clear content faster and faster. There's also a human part to consider (which I've talked about earlier) but it shouldn't be your go-to decision making perspective, or else you really are going to stink of corruption and ineffectiveness.

What consumables do mages bring that warlocks wouldn't? I never played warlock but assumed consumables department is exactly the same for warlock as for mage. Does the council also factor in raid prep time: for example farming soul shards? Mages have little to no raid prep. It's a little like saying: all the loot goes to the rogues because they top DPS meters. Now lets consider what allows them to perform so well? Probably in no small part buffs from people who do less DPS.

I'm sorry, but even in a thousand years I won't be convinced. I'll say though, this is good solution for top of the line min-maxing guilds.

Nymis wrote: ↑

6 years ago

We're going to have "excited" Warlocks too, but you can't base all your decisions on maximizing people's excitement. Excitement doesn't do DPS better or tank better, and people do want to clear content faster and faster.

Merode has it right with "cold logic", damn. I think raiding hours is a great metric, because it doesn't over-benefit people who happen to be better at analysis, although I take your point about tank hours. I think I understand your perspective now, but it kinda horrifies me. These aren't numbers, these are people - hopefully your friends, by the time you're raiding. You're going to clear it all anyway, why obsess about doing so slightly faster?

To the RP servers I go!

Nymis, I'd also be curious to hear your response to Merode's point about classes. If we can objectively show that, say, rogues do the best DPS at a given tier, why not disallow all non-rogue DPS in the raid? (Or, for the sake of shared buffs and using dropped loot efficiently, allow one of each other DPS class, and fill the rest with rogues?)

Merode wrote: ↑

6 years ago

What consumables do mages bring that warlocks wouldn't? I never played warlock but assumed consumables department is exactly the same for warlock as for mage. Does the council also factor in raid prep time: for example farming soul shards? Mages have little to no raid prep. It's a little like saying: all the loot goes to the rogues because they top DPS meters. Now lets consider what allows them to perform so well? Probably in no small part buffs from people who do less DPS.

I'm sorry, but even in a thousand years I won't be convinced. I'll say though, this is good solution for top of the line min-maxing guilds.

Min-maxing your raid potential is not the same as having a min-maxing guild. Helping a fat guy run better isn't the same as training him for the Olympic games I think And there's nothing stopping us from taking a break and eating a donut every now and then, but if our running session is more about eating donuts then it is about running then I'm doing a shit job motivating him to run and get better at running.

Also, like I said, it's not min-maxing the potential entirely because you still have to factor in the human element ("fuck this, I want gear too" for example), but factoring in that human element is near impossible with a DKP system.

As for the mages: their consumables are usually more expensive than those of the Warlocks for obvious reasons - a lot of raiding guilds would rather demand more from Mages than Warlocks (better DPS increase overall).

Warlocks bringing Soul Shards is just as important as Mages having max level food/drinks and sharing it with the whole raid. You'll find that the raid is going to be a lot more limited for not having level 45 food (instead of level 55 food) rather than soul shards. Honestly, I'd rather put in the effort of farming 20 minutes beforehand in peace and putting a SS up on a healer once in a while + passing a HS to a tank before a pull, than spamming conjuring food/water spells and trading with everyone who says "food/water pls" every, single, raid.

It comes with what's expected of your class.

I'm sorry, but this comparison is not accurate. This council idea looks to me a lot like corporation. People who clean are of little importance, but we need them to keep running (warlocks, druids, hunters). People who do actual work are a little more important so they'll get bigger pay checks (shamans, paladins, fury warriors). Management, boy oh boy (mages, rogues, prot warriors, priests). Of course you should give your life to corporation. Corporation is your family and well-being. Nothing puts a bigger grin on my face than steep upwards charts!

My idea is, we're not there for the guild as for the idea or organization. Rather people are what makes the guild, and guild (the organization) should serve them. With your concept some classes get shorthanded. Not to mention underlying issue - people are not objective so they'll distribute loot subjectively. Or do you suggest you keep track of every single one of 40 people and notice what consumables they bring, how much they try? How do you keep track of it? I bet this whole council works on "feeling" who deserves what and not objectively determining it, because that would be much harder to track than DKP.

emberfiend wrote: ↑

6 years ago

These aren't numbers, these are people - hopefully your friends, by the time you're raiding. You're going to clear it all anyway, why obsess about doing so slightly faster?

It's not about getting it down faster, it's about principle. If my main perspective is about "let's make friends and not hurt anyone's feelings" then that doesn't inspire a lot confidence in my ability to raid lead. After all, WoW is a glorified DnD math game where you should, in theory, get your rewards based on effort,ability and luck - not World of Feelingscraft where you get your rewards based on how good they're going to make you feel.

If we all start getting riled up about feelings, we're never getting anywhere. Bosses don't care about how good you feel about your staff, the 39 other people who are there with you aren't going to be as no-fucks-given as you after 3 more wipes on the same raid where you got your epic staff.

And the "you're going to clear things anyway" - yeah, at launch maybe, but when you'll have 4-5 raids to farm every week you're not going to clear things anyway. That's what the casual /r/edditards don't tell you - that no one's going to want to clear MC in 3 hours when there's Onyxia, BWL, ZG and also AQ to farm. People will want to clear things of course, but if you are not going to be able to clear all of them every week then they're going to leave for other guilds who can, the good ones who can do better. That's why the casual guilds don't get to AQ/Naxx generally, among other things.

Again, you're only considering the feelings of the laziest folks who know nothing about the extra effort the others who are carrying have to put in, and I'm mostly considering the feelings of the ones who are putting in the real work that is needed to clear the bosses, people who shouldn't be held at the exact standard as the one who aren't asked to respec every week or buy consumables - but these two categories don't have to be mutually exclusive, and instead of designing a DKP system for every little tidbit of effort put in, you could just use a balanced and educated council.

If you can't understand the rational decision to guide my raid to victory isn't always aligned with your ideals all the time, you are the one with an attitude problem. We can still be friends if you understand that it's far more important that we keep a solid raid team together by distributing loot on the basis of us getting better and better at clearing raids together rather than pleasing every person in the raid. You can't please everyone, that's a given - but the fact that the raid is getting better, that the person who got the item earned it and that your time will come eventually anyway is an easier pill to swallow than "it was fair to give it to him because he showed up as often as you did", regardless of anything else.

Merode wrote: ↑

6 years ago

I'm sorry, but this comparison is not accurate. This council idea looks to me a lot like corporation. People who clean are of little importance, but we need them to keep running (warlocks, druids, hunters). People who do actual work are a little more important so they'll get bigger pay checks (shamans, paladins, fury warriors). Management, boy oh boy (mages, rogues, prot warriors, priests). Of course you should give your life to corporation. Corporation is your family and well-being. Nothing puts a bigger grin on my face than steep upwards charts!

My idea is, we're not there for the guild as for the idea or organization. Rather people are what makes the guild, and guild (the organization) should serve them. With your concept some classes get shorthanded. Not to mention underlying issue - people are not objective so they'll distribute loot subjectively. Or do you suggest you keep track of every single one of 40 people and notice what consumables they bring, how much they try? How do you keep track of it? I bet this whole council works on "feeling" who deserves what and not objectively determining it, because that would be much harder to track than DKP.

Your comparisson is flawed because money, in this context (gear), isn't just there for personal spending - "money" we give to the people in our raids helps our guild get better and better. The cleaning lady does roughly the same job as the CEO, except worse (for now). The people who are getting more money actually do tend to make more money for out guild as a whole and that is why they get money in the first place. It's not at all like that.

But yeah, good luck getting people with degrees to give a shit about your company when you're paying the cleaning lady the same salary as that of an engineer.

You keep track of it by using Class Leads and demanding minimum requirements to join those raids.

To qualify for loot, let's say you need to have attendance of over 80%. That's easy to track at the end of each raid and the Raid Lead usually handles it.

Meters show you how well they do in raids. Threat meters show whether or not you can actually handle an upgrade. Class Leads should know every BiS item on every boss, so by looking at the meters and looking at the Class Leads, it should be easy to figure out which class should get it and, more or less, which person should receive that item. We'll then ask everyone from that class to link which item they'd be replacing so we can get a better view at how well that improvement would work. We come to a decision and explain it to them, then give the item if no one has any better argument. Consumables are easy to check for (you can just hover over that person) and then see those buffs - but usually good meters go hand in hand with consumables.

..and then after 20 minutes of discussion you move to next boss?
Ok, I'll grant you that it might work and it seems to be be popular. My realm must have been exception that I took for norm.

TL;DR

You take a methodical approach.

First check attendance of the raid. (if over 80% then good)
Then check for class. (most of the times it will go for the best class available, but like I said, sometimes it won't because it's not fair to always do this)
Then check for meters and consumables. (if people are too high on the threat meter for no reason they're out, look at DPS meters, check for consumables)
Then look at the items they'll be replacing. (no sense replacing a good epic with a slightly better epic instead of replacing a mediocre blue with a really good epic)

Have a short deliberation and commit.

Yeah it does/will suck ass for the first raids, but once a bunch of people have gear and everyone knows what they're basically after it should work out quicker, it always ends up with having a part of the raid that's a bit more geared up than the other part of the raid - so they usually pass on most things and stack karma (in this case, attendance) for the next raid tier, whereas the other part is happy to get whatever at a much faster pace than the one we had when we first entered the raid. Class Leads will be very important in speeding up this process.