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I have a question for you...

Gamers these days are more obsessed with efficiency and maximization than ever, but I'm hoping Classic will bring a solid contingent of people who want to chill out, take it slowly and enjoy the scenery, and actually chat to one another and make friends.

If you (like me) are in that latter camp, do you have a strategy to avoid rushy min-maxers and/or find your tribe?

My current thoughts are:

- I love PvP but I'm strongly considering rolling RP (especially if there's no RPPvP) to find gentler people
- I'm planning to start a guild explicitly themed around casual, slow, immersive play to attract the likeminded
- I'm going to pointedly not roll on whatever server /r/classicwow declares the "reddit server"
- Wait a few days after launch to see which servers remain the lowest pop and roll on one of those?

Any more ideas would be greatly appreciated, as well as perspectives about the situation in general.

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emberfiend wrote:
3 months ago
Any more ideas would be greatly appreciated, as well as perspectives about the situation in general.
Hey emberfiend, welcome to the site!

I've already talked at length about the term 'min-maxing' in another thread, explaining how I feel that it is being misappropriated. I'll just quote my post here out of laziness (pardon the swearing in this lol):
teebling wrote:
4 months ago
It has such a negative connotations and I think that people apply it to the wrong scenarios these days.

First of all, what is wrong with wanting to be good at the game. Sure, to agree with OP, there is very little difference between classes and races but people should still be able to make informed decisions and feel free to try to play to their very best.

Any time you see someone talking about efficiency or extra performance on the classic subreddit for example, the post is either downvoted into oblivion or the OP gets abuse for being an evil 'min-maxer'. So fucking what? Let people play how they want to play you know...

...I still think people shouldn't be demonised for wanting to exploit those small advantages where they do exist.
So I think that there are going to be people who want to chill out, take their time and make friends who will also want to play their character to the highest standard they want to. To me there is no clear defining line between these two activities - you can do both and still be an enjoyable person to play with after all.

The perceived problem arises I think from the player in question themselves - a selfish player for example will justify selfish play with progression by demanding your group go and tan boars for a day or two so he can build devilsaur for example. That's a player to avoid because he is making you participate in his 'min maxing' ideals rather than bringing joy to the rest of the group and sharing the focus of the play time.

So yeah.. for me anyway there aren't two 'camps' here staked out in the Classic community. There'll be a mixture of wandering off the map and climbing cliffs just to look at a setting sun, as well as finding out how to improve your DPS a bit for the next dungeon run.

Either way, I hope you find a group you enjoy playing with and at a pace you find comfortable. RP is definitely an attractive option.

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Hi teebling. Thanks for the warm welcome :)

I am sorry you have experienced hostility in the communities for enjoying optimization. I think everyone should be free to play games however they enjoy.

I hope you are correct about the divide being more of a continuum, and most people going for a mix of wonder and maximization.

In reality - speaking only from my experience of course, but it is extensive, almost 20 years in MMOs, and I have played most of them - that dividing line is extremely clear. Min-maxers generally tell other people how to play, and spread that philosophy to the point where if you aren't following the meta, you are treated with hostility.

The motivations here can be varied. For competitive people, if they are playing at close to optimum, the only way they can improve their party's performance is by telling others in it how to play. It can also come from an instinct to help - look at this person, they are using the wrong rotation, I can fix that! Whatever it is, it comes with very selfish fundamental assumptions about what people want out of the game (immersion and sense of wonder [or even build experimentation] vs. performance and efficiency).

If you enjoy optimizing and don't tell other people how to play, that's great and none of this is levelled at you. But if that is the case, you are in the minority. I do not assert this lightly!

I feel like a refugee. I got so much out of games before the efficiency epidemic happened. Guild Wars 2, my last true love, is now socially unplayable for someone like me. There are 2 or 3 correct meta builds for each class, and you are aggressively verbally abused or simply votekicked from !easy PvE content! (dungeons) if you step outside the meta because the community is 95%+ min-maxers.

Anyway, I don't want the thread to devolve into this debate if at all possible, it has been had many times before :) In good faith, I want to know if other people like me have strategies to avoid min-maxers or find one another.

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Play the way you want, my man!

There's guilds at every level across the continuum, and I find that players with similar goals try to group together. Pugs are one thing, but if you find a tribe of people you click with, they'll tend to treat things with the same level of seriousness. Not every raiding guild is going to be <Method>, just like every guild isn't going to be <Supersaiyan Sk8erbois>.

Most of us are in our 20's/30's/40's at this point and have lives outside of the game and varying levels of responsibility. We'll all find our niches.

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I'll be playing at my own pace, taking frequent breaks to roast a bone as I trek through the wilderness. If I find a group of people moving at my place, awesome! That's what I did in Vanilla and some of those people have become my best friends.

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emberfiend wrote:
3 months ago
I love PvP but I'm strongly considering rolling RP (especially if there's no RPPvP) to find gentler people
I'm so torn on this. The staged content makes me want to roll PvP because it'll be so dynamic, but the RP servers are gonna be amazing in the opening weeks too.

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Sine wrote:
3 months ago
emberfiend wrote:
3 months ago
I love PvP but I'm strongly considering rolling RP (especially if there's no RPPvP) to find gentler people
I'm so torn on this. The staged content makes me want to roll PvP because it'll be so dynamic, but the RP servers are gonna be amazing in the opening weeks too.
Hopefully, you will have an RPPvP server. I like both as well but would personally start with a PvP server, and once the dust has settled and everything is not as big of a rush, enjoy some RP.

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If this game is as big as I expect it to be, there'll be all 'meta types' playing. There's room for everyone.

If you're worried about a certain group of peoples trying to impose their way upon you, just ignore them?

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emberfiend wrote:
3 months ago
In reality - speaking only from my experience of course, but it is extensive, almost 20 years in MMOs, and I have played most of them - that dividing line is extremely clear.
Is it though? Most people who complain about min/maxers in WoW have 0 idea what min/maxing actually is - I mean, if you think asking you to play your best raiding spec to join a raid is min/maxing, I can only imagine what asking you to farm all of your pre-raid BiS items, including all the consumables and relevant buffs before every raid, earning enough gold to buy out all your BiS off the AH etc - would actually sound like to you.
emberfiend wrote:
3 months ago
Whatever it is, it comes with very selfish fundamental assumptions about what people want out of the game (immersion and sense of wonder [or even build experimentation] vs. performance and efficiency).
As opposed to the selfish fundamental assumption that you should be entitled to having a raid spot and you shouldn't be asked to put up with anything you don't like which might hinder your immersion and experimentation?

Yeah, if Johnny McTryhard is farming consumables all week and doing one-button rotations so that he can do the best DPS he can for his raid that's fair game, but fuck him if he's telling you to just have a raiding spec on you and fuck him if he gets more loot than you do. :lol:
emberfiend wrote:
3 months ago
I got so much out of games before the efficiency epidemic happened. Guild Wars 2, my last true love, is now socially unplayable for someone like me
It's always been like that. I've played that game at launch since the 3-day headstart and "LF 4 warrs full zerk CoF" has always been there, I've played Warrior and I know how broken it was back then - but you know what, I still had a PvT build that I used in WvW while we were rocking #1 in Europe. I also had an "experimental" conditions build, and I tried screwing around with some banner/support builds too.

The problem isn't with min/maxers, I think the problem is with you - sure, the game can be completed with alternative builds and wacky stuff, but at the end of the day someone will have to put up with things they don't want to for the good of the raid and then wipes will happen and who do you think they're going to be pointing their fingers at? I've played as a healer most of my life and there's nothing more frustrating than working hard and doing your best for the good of the raid and failing because of one guy wanted to tank with a Lionheart Helm, or some other guy doesn't care that he's doing less damage than a hunter's pet so long as he looks cool doing it.

There is a big difference between seeing someone do less DPS because he lacks the skill/experience/consumables and seeing someone do less DPS because he wants to feel like a special snowflake more than he wants to be useful to those 39 other people who are relying on him to do his job.

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Escalotes wrote:
3 months ago
Most of us are in our 20's/30's/40's at this point and have lives outside of the game and varying levels of responsibility. We'll all find our niches.
Well said, I hadn't thought about it this way. With WoW's ageing player base, there are bound to be a lot of people not taking it too seriously.
Jon Bloodspray wrote:
3 months ago
I'll be playing at my own pace, taking frequent breaks to roast a bone as I trek through the wilderness. If I find a group of people moving at my place, awesome! That's what I did in Vanilla and some of those people have become my best friends.
Hell yeah my dude :) I'm in the same boat, I like WoW best when it's an elaborate minigame on top of a chat room. You can get some really solid relationships out of this thing.
Sine wrote:
3 months ago
I'm so torn on this. The staged content makes me want to roll PvP because it'll be so dynamic, but the RP servers are gonna be amazing in the opening weeks too.
Right? It's rough. One option is to roll a toon on both types, especially if you want to dual-main, but then you make weaker social connections because you're splitting your community investment.
Rootdancer wrote:
3 months ago
Hopefully, you will have an RPPvP server. I like both as well but would personally start with a PvP server, and once the dust has settled and everything is not as big of a rush, enjoy some RP.
That's a really cool approach. Get the PvP while it's really active, and then go relax. I might do this.
William wrote:
3 months ago
If you're worried about a certain group of peoples trying to impose their way upon you, just ignore them?
In several other MMOs you legit can't do this because of how skewed the player-base is, but I suspect I may be worrying for nothing :)
Nymis wrote:
3 months ago
Angst
I think it's completely defensible that raid groups include pre-requisites like specific specs, consumables, DPS performance and so on. Raids are difficult enough to warrant it. I am specifically not talking about raids because I have no interest in that culture.

My issue is that it seeps everywhere. Dungeons are long, but they are really not that difficult. I *do* believe someone should be able to make a Dire Maul run take 20 minutes longer so they can use their interesting off-meta build, or because the party got into an interesting discussion about some weird aspect of WoW lore, or because the Druid got lost and we all rode out to the edge of the zone to show him how to find the dungeon, or a zillion other "inefficiencies" which are also wonderful human experiences. With efficiency culture, these events just result in a kick. It's heartbreaking.

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