Arathi Highlands
User avatar
Posts: 158
Likes: 65
158 posts
158 posts
4 months ago (Pre-release)
4 months ago (Pre-release)
 •  Unread

Title says it all.

This is something I'm not sure how I feel about. I've actually had great experiences with loot council but I may have just been lucky to have a good group of people. A 40 man raiding guild makes things more complicated, often. If there was an entire, feasible progression path of 20 man raids in vanilla (which would be cool to see happen if they add additional content), loot council would be way easier with 20 people, especially if it's a close-knit squad of friends. Loot council is super easy in 10 man raiding, though, but I feel like it's super hard to pull off and keep people happy in a 40 man raid.

I'm not a fan of dkp, but some of the suicide kings or zero sum DKP systems are interesting, but a pain to keep track of.

What is you guys preferred loot system?

Toshiok - Troll Mage, Warsong Private Server Socks - Night Elf Druid, Elysium
Toshiok - Troll Mage, Kil'Jaeden US retail Dimaga - Human Warlock Lightbringer US retail, guild: Animus Invictus
Teldrassil
User avatar
Guild:

Retired


Bnet:

Abannon#1362


Posts: 26
Likes: 22
26 posts
Night Elf
Warrior
Night Elf Warrior 26 posts
4 months ago (Pre-release)
4 months ago (Pre-release)
 •  Unread

I was the DKP officer during vanilla so I feel it's somewhat in my area to say that DKP has massive drawbacks and I'd never advise using it. Never having raided with lootcouncil leaves me pretty ignorant on the system other than the horror stories I picked up left and right of guilds abusing it for selfish reasons. So I've always been adverse to it but I only have anecdotal evidence to be fair.
I myself have raided for the last ten years with EPGP (which has an addon that keeps track of everything and is easy to use) and I feel it strikes a balance between merit-based loot distribution and gearing up a guild as a whole to help progression. So come raiding time I'll be looking for a guild that uses it.

ImageImage
Priest Holy
User avatar
Posts: 27
Likes: 19
27 posts
Alliance
Hunter
Alliance Hunter 27 posts
4 months ago (Pre-release)
4 months ago (Pre-release)
 •  Unread

I am fine with DKP. I always was a fan of EPGP, besides the fact that officers can easily edit their own values.

In my opinion, attendance is something that any loot system should weigh on heavily. If I am an officer, and you have sub 80% attendance, don't expect to get loot.

Image Level 0 MC 0/10 BWL 0/8 ZG 0/10 AQ 0/6 0/9 Naxx 0/15
Image Level 0 MC 0/10 BWL 0/8 ZG 0/10 AQ 0/6 0/9 Naxx 0/15
Hillsbrad Foothills
User avatar
Posts: 161
Likes: 115
160 posts
Alliance
Paladin
Alliance Paladin 160 posts
4 months ago (Pre-release)
4 months ago (Pre-release)
 •  Unread

I was expecting another poll and potentially another plea by @teebling to stop creating a poll for everything imaginable. Now I'm genuinely a little disappointed at not finding a poll. :neutral:

   Cletus
Image
Posts:
Likes: 0
Deleted User 578
Deleted User 578
4 months ago (Pre-release)
4 months ago (Pre-release)
 •  Unread

I prefer loot council system even though I admit that it's pretty hard to make everyone happy in a 40 man raid. I think unless someone really needs the item you should just /roll for it. On the other hand I've experienced a situation where they initiated a roll and then gave it to the guy who lost because he brought more consumables to raid, which is not very fair if you ask me...

Desolace
User avatar
Posts: 22
Likes: 64
22 posts
Horde
Hunter
Horde Hunter 22 posts
4 months ago (Pre-release)
4 months ago (Pre-release)
 •  Unread

The theoretical best loot system is master loot with a master looter who has perfect judgement and wisdom. Good luck finding that though.

Tirisfal Glades
User avatar
Guild:

Insurgency


Posts: 191
Likes: 230
188 posts
Undead
Mage
Undead Mage 188 posts
4 months ago (Pre-release)
4 months ago (Pre-release)
 •  Unread

Loot council>Master looter with good judgement>DKP
I will always support the "play good, receive good" mentality. Anyone in a group who supports the group effort, is always on time, pulls their weight and then some should always have priority. Separately, I never felt that you should be charged DKP for loot that no one else wants just because the guild wants to DE it for guild supplies.

Our time will come.
Tirisfal Glades
User avatar
Guild:

Insurgency


Posts: 173
Likes: 130
172 posts
Undead
Priest
Undead Priest 172 posts
4 months ago (Pre-release)
4 months ago (Pre-release)
 •  Unread

Vanilla, I was an officer and lead healer for my raiding guild. DKP was our primary system for loot distro. It seemed to work. But could be manipulated. My last stent as a heavy raider was legion and we used loot council. The Loot Council with "weighted rolls" (i.e. - upgrade, 2pc, 4pc) was a much smoother system and I saw a guild trying to gear itself up as a unit instead of individuals. Much less drama.

Image
Warlock Destruction
User avatar
Guild:

Kor Kron Vanguard


Bnet:

Nym#21750


Posts: 274
Likes: 317
274 posts
Undead
Warlock
Undead Warlock 274 posts
4 months ago (Pre-release)
4 months ago (Pre-release)
 •  Unread

Definitely Loot Council.

The problem with DKP is that, at the end of the day, with the amount of effort you'd have to put into that system in order to make it work you might as well put it into refining your criteria and judgment for Loot Council and even so, it would still be an inferior system to Loot Council given that corrective measures against unforeseen circumstances can only be accounted for a priori in a DKP system whereas the Loot Council can and will always step in and apply as soon as unforeseen circumstances arrive.

In other words, if something unforeseen and undesirable happens, you have to oblige by the rules you've set in with DKP whereas with LC you can always step in and say "no, we won't do this, and here is why".

The criticism against Loot Council is also the source of its greatest strength. Even if you were to put your mind up to the task of designing a DKP system which:

a) adequately accounts for the value of each DKP eligible activity in terms with some objective quantifiable metric and records these activities flawlessly
b) provides an adequate minimum bid for each and every single item inside a raid proportional to that item's utility and rarity against arranged bids
c) counters DKP hoarding and inflation without punishing veterans
d) rewards a different number of DKP points for a different variety of raids progress (progress raids, farm raids, more difficult bosses etc.)
e) confers a motivating method of converting DKP points from one phase to another as more raids become available

You could still have bullshit situations where Warlocks are getting an over the mages even though they're doing DPS that's worse than a Hunter's pet in that current phase :lol: Might be fair from a DKP perspective, might be fair from the Warlock's perspective, but it would definitely be a loss for the whole raid - whereas with Loot Council, I can step in and see if I can explain it to my fellow Warlocks that it's more important for now that we as a raid group get better during P1 and less so about who can get which epic items first, that their patience and perseverance will not be forgotten and it will be their day in ZG and onward where they will be favored over the mages on these matters.

Even if they disagree with me, I think in general that a genuine, human explanation is far better than a "it's just numbers, bro" excuse.

   teebling
Arathi Highlands
User avatar
Posts: 158
Likes: 65
158 posts
158 posts
4 months ago (Pre-release)
4 months ago (Pre-release)
 •  Unread

Nymis wrote:
4 months ago
Definitely Loot Council.

The problem with DKP is that, at the end of the day, with the amount of effort you'd have to put into that system in order to make it work you might as well put it into refining your criteria and judgment for Loot Council and even so, it would still be an inferior system to Loot Council given that corrective measures against unforeseen circumstances can only be accounted for a priori in a DKP system whereas the Loot Council can and will always step in and apply as soon as unforeseen circumstances arrive.

In other words, if something unforeseen and undesirable happens, you have to oblige by the rules you've set in with DKP whereas with LC you can always step in and say "no, we won't do this, and here is why".

The criticism against Loot Council is also the source of its greatest strength. Even if you were to put your mind up to the task of designing a DKP system which:

a) adequately accounts for the value of each DKP eligible activity in terms with some objective quantifiable metric and records these activities flawlessly
b) provides an adequate minimum bid for each and every single item inside a raid proportional to that item's utility and rarity against arranged bids
c) counters DKP hoarding and inflation without punishing veterans
d) rewards a different number of DKP points for a different variety of raids progress (progress raids, farm raids, more difficult bosses etc.)
e) confers a motivating method of converting DKP points from one phase to another as more raids become available

You could still have bullshit situations where Warlocks are getting an over the mages even though they're doing DPS that's worse than a Hunter's pet in that current phase :lol: Might be fair from a DKP perspective, might be fair from the Warlock's perspective, but it would definitely be a loss for the whole raid - whereas with Loot Council, I can step in and see if I can explain it to my fellow Warlocks that it's more important for now that we as a raid group get better during P1 and less so about who can get which epic items first, that their patience and perseverance will not be forgotten and it will be their day in ZG and onward where they will be favored over the mages on these matters.

Even if they disagree with me, I think in general that a genuine, human explanation is far better than a "it's just numbers, bro" excuse.
Yeah I think it's a great point that Loot Council can be overlayed with more measurable metrics, and the process can be pretty transparent.

Toshiok - Troll Mage, Warsong Private Server Socks - Night Elf Druid, Elysium
Toshiok - Troll Mage, Kil'Jaeden US retail Dimaga - Human Warlock Lightbringer US retail, guild: Animus Invictus
Arathi Highlands
User avatar
Posts: 158
Likes: 65
158 posts
158 posts
4 months ago (Pre-release)
4 months ago (Pre-release)
 •  Unread

Kristhan wrote:
4 months ago
I prefer loot council system even though I admit that it's pretty hard to make everyone happy in a 40 man raid. I think unless someone really needs the item you should just /roll for it. On the other hand I've experienced a situation where they initiated a roll and then gave it to the guy who lost because he brought more consumables to raid, which is not very fair if you ask me...
My guild's loot council system took into account raid attendance, how much effort you put into your preraid gear (when we were starting MC), and what item you're replacing (balanced with the previous metric, too). But what helped make it both more transparent and have less space for corruption was that, with a few exceptions, we didn't pick a single person for an item but got down to a short list, and then those 3-4 players would roll for it. That way, if you're concerned about not getting people pissed, people that would have otherwise thought they were borderline being the guy to get the item now are put on the short list and it's left up to chance, so less impetus for feeling like they got shafted. And then people who are left off the shortlist can't guarantee they would have won the roll, so then they have less impetus for being pissy.

Toshiok - Troll Mage, Warsong Private Server Socks - Night Elf Druid, Elysium
Toshiok - Troll Mage, Kil'Jaeden US retail Dimaga - Human Warlock Lightbringer US retail, guild: Animus Invictus
Winterspring
User avatar
Guild:

Ordo Lucis


Posts: 30
Likes: 35
30 posts
Alliance
Mage
Alliance Mage 30 posts
4 months ago (Pre-release)
4 months ago (Pre-release)
 •  Unread

Something that often doesn't come up during these discussions but that I've been a part of to great effect previously (albeit in WotLK rather than Vanilla) is Gold-DKP.

There is a simple set of rules that determine the system, explained here. Essentially, items are auctioned for gold, all gold goes into a central pot that is then evenly distributed amongst the raid at it's conclusion.

This system was used in Gevlon's (The Greedy Goblin) guild on Aggamagan-EU, The PuG. That guild was made up of people that liked to earn gold, and so the system worked well.
Individual items were worth a certain amount to each person that wanted it. If you wanted the item more then you would bid more. Your available DKP was nested in your ability to make gold outside of a raid environment, though participating and getting no new items would still see you making a profit.

There are criticisms against this system, namely that there is no way to guarantee that your MT that comes to every raid is guaranteed the Amazing Shield of MT Power over someone else that has a bit more disposable income and therefore no way to ensure that the progression of the guild is maximised, as is the case with Loot Council.

What Gold-DKP does provide is a stable and impartial method of loot distribution, assuming the pot holder is morally sound.

In The PuG the pot itself and the desire to weed out bad practice meant that penalties had to be paid for mistakes made during raids as well, which helped further incentivise preparation.

Gold isn't as common in Vanilla, but all that really means is that the items that used to go for 1250 gold in WotLK will go for 125 gold in Vanilla.

Like I say, this won't appeal to everyone, especially those who felt that they only made enough gold to scrape by in Vanilla anyway (looking at main tanks and MT healers who typically had to respec 4x or more every week just to float), but equally it may well forge a way for these classes to not have to farm as much, if they're getting the gold they would have looked to farm anyway.

The PuG has a 'no communist collective' rule, but its equally viable that off-tanks may understand that the MT could use a specific piece of gear to improve progression and therefore hold back on bidding.

I myself was in The PuG as a Warrior off-tank and never felt like I was getting less than I deserved when I raided, probably moreso than when I raided using classic DKP as a Mage in Vanilla.

   teebling
Never stop never stopping.
Arathi Highlands
User avatar
Posts: 158
Likes: 65
158 posts
158 posts
4 months ago (Pre-release)
4 months ago (Pre-release)
 •  Unread

Teeny wrote:
4 months ago
Something that often doesn't come up during these discussions but that I've been a part of to great effect previously (albeit in WotLK rather than Vanilla) is Gold-DKP.

There is a simple set of rules that determine the system, explained here. Essentially, items are auctioned for gold, all gold goes into a central pot that is then evenly distributed amongst the raid at it's conclusion.

This system was used in Gevlon's (The Greedy Goblin) guild on Aggamagan-EU, The PuG. That guild was made up of people that liked to earn gold, and so the system worked well.
Individual items were worth a certain amount to each person that wanted it. If you wanted the item more then you would bid more. Your available DKP was nested in your ability to make gold outside of a raid environment, though participating and getting no new items would still see you making a profit.

There are criticisms against this system, namely that there is no way to guarantee that your MT that comes to every raid is guaranteed the Amazing Shield of MT Power over someone else that has a bit more disposable income and therefore no way to ensure that the progression of the guild is maximised, as is the case with Loot Council.

What Gold-DKP does provide is a stable and impartial method of loot distribution, assuming the pot holder is morally sound.

In The PuG the pot itself and the desire to weed out bad practice meant that penalties had to be paid for mistakes made during raids as well, which helped further incentivise preparation.

Gold isn't as common in Vanilla, but all that really means is that the items that used to go for 1250 gold in WotLK will go for 125 gold in Vanilla.

Like I say, this won't appeal to everyone, especially those who felt that they only made enough gold to scrape by in Vanilla anyway (looking at main tanks and MT healers who typically had to respec 4x or more every week just to float), but equally it may well forge a way for these classes to not have to farm as much, if they're getting the gold they would have looked to farm anyway.

The PuG has a 'no communist collective' rule, but its equally viable that off-tanks may understand that the MT could use a specific piece of gear to improve progression and therefore hold back on bidding.

I myself was in The PuG as a Warrior off-tank and never felt like I was getting less than I deserved when I raided, probably moreso than when I raided using classic DKP as a Mage in Vanilla.
In my experience, Gold DKP is something I've never heard of a guild implementing internally. It's almost universally been something on private servers for guild's that have finished MC and BWL to take on some random pug players, like 15 of them, through MC/BWL and sell off the items to them and the guild members split the pot on the gold spent for the items that drop. I can't imagine this working for the day-to-day loot distribution of a guild.

Toshiok - Troll Mage, Warsong Private Server Socks - Night Elf Druid, Elysium
Toshiok - Troll Mage, Kil'Jaeden US retail Dimaga - Human Warlock Lightbringer US retail, guild: Animus Invictus
Winterspring
User avatar
Guild:

Ordo Lucis


Posts: 30
Likes: 35
30 posts
Alliance
Mage
Alliance Mage 30 posts
4 months ago (Pre-release)
4 months ago (Pre-release)
 •  Unread

Gensei wrote:
4 months ago
Teeny wrote:
4 months ago
Something that often ...
In my experience, Gold DKP is something I've never heard of a guild implementing internally. It's almost universally been something on private servers for guild's that have finished MC and BWL to take on some random pug players, like 15 of them, through MC/BWL and sell off the items to them and the guild members split the pot on the gold spent for the items that drop. I can't imagine this working for the day-to-day loot distribution of a guild.
It was used in The PuG during WotLK progression and it was mostly fast, since typically you have a smallish number of players after any particular item there’s not a huge number of bids, and the gold is just collected into the pot and recorded for later dispersal among raid members.

Part of the idea of The PuG was that it was a guild that worked exactly like a pick up group anyway, with no defined raid leaders or times, or class leaders etc. The reliance was on the individual to understand their contribution and perform due to the penalty for mistakes.

I’m not saying it’s perfect or even better than other options in this topic, but personally if a guild started up using Gold-DKP in Classic I’d consider it a viable option to pursue.

Never stop never stopping.
Similar topics
to 'What is your favorite loot system for 40 man raids?'
Posts ViewsLast post