Elwynn Forest
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As the topic says, are there going to be any paid services from Blizzard like Race, Gender, Name transfer/change?

I am pretty sure that tokens/mounts are not going to be implemented, just not sure about the rest. :eek:

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Grats on level 10. Good question.

I've heard that back in the day realm transfers were available but severely restricted - you could only go from a PvP realm to a PvE realm as far as I'm aware - not the other way around. I see a very good reason for this in that levelling up to 60 on a PvE realm is far quicker and easier and then to transfer over to a PvP realm would be unfair.

As for the race/gender/name stuff, well names were certainly changeable by GMs (for example on RP servers if our new friend @Uncle Ganus McAnus were strutting around Stormwind) for RP reasons. Not sure about race and gender changes though, perhaps that came later.

Blizz will certainly be discussing this. Bit of a conundrum for them concerning race/gender/name stuff because the extra income would be very welcome in the boardroom but then again were race and gender changes available back then? If not then they're risking backlash for not going with authenticity.

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Provided that a good amount of players may leave after the first month and/or there are imbalanced faction populations, Blizzard might add realm transfers.

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Wrekk wrote:
2 months ago
Provided that a good amount of players may leave after the first month and/or there are imbalanced faction populations, Blizzard might add realm transfers.
I'd be okay with that. More money for Blizzard - keeps them happy and motivated. And it doesn't effect your gameplay... Well maybe you'll lose some friends. :cry:

Elwynn Forest
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Well changing race/gender/name may affect the Classic experice, since back then people had 'reputation' assigned to their character and had to play by the rules, but I guess we have to wait and find out.

@teebling thanks!

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Winterspring
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I can't think of any reason why they shouldn't implement the appearance change service, provided they remove the name change portion of it. Without the name change portion I can't think of any sort of harm it could cause.

Race change I'm mostly okay with, but then you hit the priest issue. Would lead to a fair number of alliance players going non-dwarf for leveling, then swapping over to dwarf at max/near-max. I think that one's really a matter of how much of a difference that makes with leveling speed. Could also potentially lead to guilds pressuring any non-dwarf priests into changing race because "it's only $25".

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teebling wrote:
2 months ago
(for example on RP servers if our new friend @Uncle Ganus McAnus were strutting around Stormwind)
By the shitty taste of your racial booze, I say ! You can bet I'll be strutting around Stormwind but most of all I'll be enjoying myself while transmogrifying you & your Kor Kron pals into something more.....suitable !!

   teebling Scheyp
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Ashenvale
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While it might be cool for the person doing the changes, it actually is detrimental overall to the social aspect of the game.

When you can't get refund on something, you become overall satisfied and more committed to the "product".

For instance on Kronos, you could "legally" trade characters, but once someone started they just couldn't stop. They'd trade characters a number of times before never being satisfied again and quitting to reroll on a server where you couldn't do this (no joke, every serial trader I knew left for Lightshope).

By allowing changes you think someone's just going to do it once but it'll likely lead to an uneasy feeling that your friend is just...not the same person as they were last week or the week before that, and instability is the last of what we need in a community, even if it is subtle.

Also, race or faction changes... that's just asking for min-maxing pressure! Night elf priests will disappear as their raid leaders send them money over paypal to change races for "the good of the guild" and warlocks on PvP servers fork over cash after one particularly rough weekend with lots of UD...

Just not the World of Warcraft I want to be playing in. Be committed. Your decisions should matter.

   Scheyp
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Linguine wrote:
2 months ago
For instance on Kronos, you could "legally" trade characters, but once someone started they just couldn't stop. They'd trade characters a number of times before never being satisfied again and quitting to reroll on a server where you couldn't do this (no joke, every serial trader I knew left for Lightshope).
That feels very apples to oranges. I can't see how changing your character's hair color is anywhere near the same as this.
Linguine wrote:
2 months ago
By allowing changes you think someone's just going to do it once but it'll likely lead to an uneasy feeling that your friend is just...not the same person as they were last week or the week before that, and instability is the last of what we need in a community, even if it is subtle.
This seems overly dramatic to be honest. Do you get confused when your friends get a hair cut? Are they no longer the same person if they dye their hair or get a tan? How are they suddenly an entirely different person for small appearance changes, and how does that same issue not apply when they change gear?
Linguine wrote:
2 months ago
Just not the World of Warcraft I want to be playing in. Be committed. Your decisions should matter.
Big decisions should matter sure. Race and class should matter. The hair style I picked at character creation which is not an entirely accurate representation of what it looks like in-game shouldn't. The skin tone I chose for my character a year ago that I'd like to change now shouldn't matter.

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MilleXIV wrote:
2 months ago
Linguine wrote:
2 months ago
For instance on Kronos, you could "legally" trade characters, but once someone started they just couldn't stop. They'd trade characters a number of times before never being satisfied again and quitting to reroll on a server where you couldn't do this (no joke, every serial trader I knew left for Lightshope).
That feels very apples to oranges. I can't see how changing your character's hair color is anywhere near the same as this.
Linguine wrote:
2 months ago
By allowing changes you think someone's just going to do it once but it'll likely lead to an uneasy feeling that your friend is just...not the same person as they were last week or the week before that, and instability is the last of what we need in a community, even if it is subtle.
This seems overly dramatic to be honest. Do you get confused when your friends get a hair cut? Are they no longer the same person if they dye their hair or get a tan? How are they suddenly an entirely different person for small appearance changes, and how does that same issue not apply when they change gear?
Linguine wrote:
2 months ago
Just not the World of Warcraft I want to be playing in. Be committed. Your decisions should matter.
Big decisions should matter sure. Race and class should matter. The hair style I picked at character creation which is not an entirely accurate representation of what it looks like in-game shouldn't. The skin tone I chose for my character a year ago that I'd like to change now shouldn't matter.

My friends are not made of overly simplified pixels that were designed to be a permanent representation of themselves.

The way your character looks in game is meant to be recognizable and not change, at least in Classic.

Neither I nor any of my friends make a decision about a character before going in game to check how the hair looks both from behind, front, and in the character portrait as well as within Luna Frames.

Making uninformed or hasty decisions may lead to dissatisfaction.

Winterspring
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Linguine wrote:
2 months ago
My friends are not made of overly simplified pixels that were designed to be a permanent representation of themselves.
This statement is contradictory. You say people should care about their representations of themselves, but you also say that they're "overly simplified pixels" implying that we shouldn't care. Even the idea that somebody's representation of themselves should be permanent is just contradictory to how humans work. For most people how you want to represent yourself changes over time. Why shouldn't they be allowed to change their character to go along with their natural changes? Have you never changed your style over time? Your interests? Tastes? Any one of those can have a cascading effect that can make even the smallest past choice one you no longer enjoy.
Linguine wrote:
2 months ago
The way your character looks in game is meant to be recognizable and not change, at least in Classic.
This all falls apart the moment you bring gear into it though. Why is changing my gear an allowable change to my looks but hairstyle isn't? What if I decide to start using a different mount? I've changed my representation. What if I roll up an alt that looks even slightly different let alone a different race?
Linguine wrote:
2 months ago
Neither I nor any of my friends make a decision about a character before going in game to check how the hair looks both from behind, front, and in the character portrait as well as within Luna Frames.

Making uninformed or hasty decisions may lead to dissatisfaction.
I'm glad you can be happy with it, but other people might not be for perfectly valid reasons. Even something as simple as "I liked black hair back then, but now I prefer blonde" is a perfectly valid reason to want to change. Ignoring that as "shouldn't have been hasty, deal with it" just seems unempathetic and dismissive for no good reason.
Linguine wrote:
2 months ago
When you can't get refund on something, you become overall satisfied and more committed to the "product".
Meant to address this before but forgot to. I don't agree with this in the slightest. If I dislike something and can't get a refund on it I call it a bad product and toss it out. Deciding to just tough it out and deal with it is classic sunk cost fallacy. Even with that being said, characters are bits of computer data that can be changed. In this case, provably so since Blizzard already has these options. There's no valid reason why one "can't get a refund" in this case.

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I'm a little torn on this one. I completely understand that race/gender changing is completely harmless to the game itself. However, part of what made vanilla so great is that your choices mattered. While features like this can be great, it's a slippery slope into a system that feeds on instant gratification and as we all know, Vanilla is anything but that.

I would say no to name/gender/race chanes. Server transfers should be regulated for population control. Can't just up and move to any server you wish. Only certain ones will be available.

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Transfers should be restricted but allowed, and should have a very long 'Cooldown' either per account or per character to prevent some abuse of the system.

I don't like the idea of the race/gender changes, I like the idea that you make a character, and you commit to it and it's reputation in the community. The easier it is to race/gender/appearance/name change/transfer, the more anonymity and the higher the possibility of toxic interactions and communities.

   Abannon
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Selexin wrote:
2 months ago
Transfers should be restricted but allowed, and should have a very long 'Cooldown' either per account or per character to prevent some abuse of the system.

I don't like the idea of the race/gender changes, I like the idea that you make a character, and you commit to it and it's reputation in the community. The easier it is to race/gender/appearance/name change/transfer, the more anonymity and the higher the possibility of toxic interactions and communities.
Great points about anonymity.

   Selexin
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I could be totally wrong, but I believe race changing in the current game changes certain reputations as well. For instance if you are a human and exatled with Stormwind and you change to a dwarf you will become exalted with Ironforge (I think in that case the Stormwind and Ironforge values switch). I could see this being problematic with mount buying, unless they lock the reps.

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As long as the name remains unalterable bar the RP related matters, the skin may well be tinkered with insofar as the anonymity's conundrum will never come to effect.

A classic-tailored iteration of a barbershop would make for a pleasant no-change transgression as far as our wigs and toupets may be concerned by the possibility of receiving a good stroke of polish.

*Displacing himself away in a manner that allows him to neuter the nay-changers' onslaught ravaging and blasting the area at his just-deserted previous location and all the way down to Azeroth's core, but a moment later___... :surprised:/ *

   Wrekk
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Ashenvale
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I think a point that hasn't brought up yet is the relation of allowing certain people to alter their graphics, and, though this is not my point as I read it from someone else on reddit, I'd like to repeat it here and build on it.

The gist of it was that someone was saying that allowing others to have the updated character models hurt no one, but then someone who played a Tauren countered by saying that the models Tauren received looked like goofy Disney characters and that he wanted to retain the dignity of his representation knowing that the way he designed his character was the way others saw it as a noble and dignified being.

In some ways allowing alterations impinges on the dignity and finality of the choices many people made at level one when you are allowed a do-over later on. It may seem ridiculous, but when you change one thing it can have unintended consequences for things you'd like to believe you aren't affecting.

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As mention already by some of you guys, Classic WoW has a clear distinction from what we have currently – certain things that are set in stone and unchangeable. When something is chosen according to the principle "once and for all", it gains a completely different weight (think Diablo II and the skill choices, remember how attentive we were). The thing is, it adds a whole different perspective to your approach towards the character. It gets a meaning, sense of significance, certain identity, even if it's flawed to some extent.

MilleXIV wrote:
2 months ago
Even the idea that somebody's representation of themselves should be permanent is just contradictory to how humans work. For most people how you want to represent yourself changes over time. Why shouldn't they be allowed to change their character to go along with their natural changes? Have you never changed your style over time? Your interests? Tastes? Any one of those can have a cascading effect that can make even the smallest past choice one you no longer enjoy.
This is exactly the line of thinking that got us to the point of no return in terms of any credibility or accountability in-game, simply due to the fact that you can hide it. I understand fully your sociological approach to the game, comparing stuff happening behind the screen with stuff taking place outside of your window. Of course, we as humans can do and re-do, and re-re-do many things. However this is not a valid argument, if we are debating an opportunity for Classic WoW to bring back what is lost in void – the sense of strong, real community. Even in real life, if you wish, there is almost no-one who can transform his identity to the point of being completely unrecognizable. Yet, with all these paid services it becomes so easy, and it has a huge impact on the way people behave. Especially, if we're talking closed communities – and Classic WoW will be a closed community. Think about it. Being able to nullify any harm you have done to the community (think social abuse, ganking, ninja-looting etc.) or even the idea that you will have the possibility to do so whenever you'd like to brings absolutely nothing good to the table.

   Scheyp
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@Razor I like what you are saying but could you change whose username you're quoting there? I didn't say that!

It actually links to a completely different post of mine too. I think the quote tag you need inside the brackets is this "quote=MilleXIV post_id=4915 time=1552940783 user_id=463"

   Razor
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MilleXIV wrote:
2 months ago
I can't think of any reason why they shouldn't implement the appearance change service, provided they remove the name change portion of it.
It wasn't in Vanilla, it was added in WotLK. Good enough reason for most of this playerbase.
MilleXIV wrote:
2 months ago
Race change I'm mostly okay with
Yeah, it's like - remember that time when they gave Humans a legitimately OP racial and every serious PvP-er faction transfered to Alliance and it stayed that way for years.

Or that time Horde had the best PvE racial in the game so over 80% of top guilds were playing Horde .

   Scheyp Linguine
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When you're a casual, these things don't really matter to you and I get you're just interested in cosmetic changes, and I get that - but whether you like it or not, the course of this game is going to be dictated mostly by these big players and big guilds.

So what's stopping most guilds from doing the same thing now?

Sometimes it does happen, and we've seen that often times the best/hardcore PvE guilds go Alliance because they have better PvE racials. Vanilla is not balanced in any way at all, however there is a sense of permanence which inhibits the min/maxers a lot of times.

If you're free to choose whatever you want to play at any point in the game, then it doesn't really matter anymore and you're more inclined to just swap to whatever race has the best racial since there's absolutely no longer any significance in the amount of time you put into leveling one particular race. You'd just have a "max level character" and the race would be a matter of "spending 25$".

I get that even harmless cosmetic choices sound good in theory, but players are like spoiled kids who want cookies from the cookie jar and the game should never cater towards them. The moment you give them access to the cookie jar, you have to find something else to motivate them with, you have to find better cookies to treat them with, and in two weeks time they'll probably hate or at best forget about the cookie jar entirely.

   Scheyp Linguine
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I guess the best way I can sum up the above points is:
#nochanges

   Linguine
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Am personally against those features in Classic, even the cosmetic ones. I don't think they have any place in that kind of era, because you should be thinking through your decisions before you go for them, and then learn to accept it, knowing that everything cannot just be instantly changed with money.

   Selexin
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MilleXIV wrote:
2 months ago

Meant to address this before but forgot to. I don't agree with this in the slightest. If I dislike something and can't get a refund on it I call it a bad product and toss it out. Deciding to just tough it out and deal with it is classic sunk cost fallacy. Even with that being said, characters are bits of computer data that can be changed. In this case, provably so since Blizzard already has these options. There's no valid reason why one "can't get a refund" in this case.
Yeah but you literally CHOSE to roll that product. If you don’t like it anymore you should re roll, not be able to change it.

Why? Because it wasn’t in The original. The purpose of classic is to be as close of a representation to the original as possible regardless of the good/bad QoL changes. Get over it.

Edit: fixed quote

Winterspring
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So here's my issue. Not a single one of you has explained how minor cosmetic changes (an appearance change without a name change) will suddenly affect your community and/or reputation. You keep saying it will, but I literally cannot even begin to fathom how changing your character's gender/skin tone/hairstyle will make people forget who you are. If that's enough to make you forget who somebody is, did you ever really care about the person behind the character, or just the character?

Razor wrote:
2 months ago
Being able to nullify any harm you have done to the community (think social abuse, ganking, ninja-looting etc.) or even the idea that you will have the possibility to do so whenever you'd like to brings absolutely nothing good to the table.
I really would appreciate it if you could tell me how a change in something as simple as hairstyle or color would make the community forget those things. Really, please do.
Nymis wrote:
2 months ago
I get that even harmless cosmetic choices sound good in theory, but players are like spoiled kids who want cookies from the cookie jar and the game should never cater towards them. The moment you give them access to the cookie jar, you have to find something else to motivate them with, you have to find better cookies to treat them with, and in two weeks time they'll probably hate or at best forget about the cookie jar entirely.
Razor wrote:
2 months ago
This is exactly the line of thinking that got us to the point of no return in terms of any credibility or accountability in-game, simply due to the fact that you can hide it.
Just how slippery is that slope you're on? Just having something as simple as the ability to change your appearance will not cause everything to go as extreme as you guys are thinking without any actual proof that it was simple appearance changes that caused it. Change is game design are what caused the issues, not the ability to change how you look. I guess I just have more faith that people who will actively choose to play Classic know that there's a difference between cosmetic changes and game design changes.
Linguine wrote:
2 months ago
The gist of it was that someone was saying that allowing others to have the updated character models hurt no one, but then someone who played a Tauren countered by saying that the models Tauren received looked like goofy Disney characters and that he wanted to retain the dignity of his representation knowing that the way he designed his character was the way others saw it as a noble and dignified being.
This actually supports my point pretty well really. If "how I want my character to be represented" is such a powerful thing that we should be forcing decisions onto others (no updated graphics) then it's also powerful enough that we should be letting people make choices for their own representation. Which includes letting them change when their idea of themselves changes.
Nymis wrote:
2 months ago
It wasn't in Vanilla, it was added in WotLK. Good enough reason for most of this playerbase.
Scheyp wrote:
2 months ago
Why? Because it wasn’t in The original.
The issue I have with this line of thinking is that it gets applied to everything when it really shouldn't. Design decisions should remain unchanged. Technical limitations should be allowed to be changed. We've already changed some things due to technical limitations or changes (net code, Battle.net integration), and I don't see the lack of appearance change in vanilla as anything more than a technical limitation.

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