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@snickerwicket if I'm not mistaken, for some classes PvP gear is partly BiS or very close to it. Especially the Epic PvP set.

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Caperfin wrote:
3 weeks ago
I've experienced a different mindset on pservers. Nearly everyone agrees the game is TOO easy and desperately impose challenges on themselves to make it harder or spice things up a bit like Speedruns. I've seen everything from guilds bringing paladin tanks to raid or the heart pounding and intense warlock raid tanking. The difference between a Discord with a warrior tanking and a warlock tanking is night and day. Its super thrilling! The tryhard/hardcore guilds are actually the ones that do unconventional stuff.
I have not experienced this. I have experienced and extreme lack of tolerance on private. The min max culture is SUPER blatant from top to bottom. This has been my experience, this is often the experience that others relay and this is the experience that all the prominent streamers have seen as well. The reality is that for most private players, they have done the content to death... Their threshold for dealing with things that are suboptimal, wiping or facing ANY adversity, is INCREDIBLY low. What is more? The min/max culture that pushes for speedclears to "spice things up" are the LAST people who are interested in bringing classes that will slow down their times. Go look at raid parses. Very few guilds are running many rets. The odd guild has one, but it is not common and they arent bring many. I have played with many good players who min/max, I have never heard any of them advocate bringing garbage specs to raids to artificially inflate the challenge of a game that will be older than some of the players who play it. To be honest, the best players I know are always PvP oriented players who just burn through PvE content as a means to collect the gear they need for PvP. Most of these guys are taking PvE specs that they DESPISE to collect the gear they need so that they can play the game the way that they would prefer to at a later time. Try selling these guys on your suboptimal spec while they suffer through playing something min/maxed for months so that they can help a guild to collect gear to FINALLY play in PvP!
Caperfin wrote:
3 weeks ago
If the difference between a dead and alive boss is 1-2 people going non meta stuff there are bigger underlying issues.
The difference between a meme spec and a solid spec is often the difference between a raid invite and being benched in a hardcore guild.

What is the threshold for bringing a meme spec? Everyone min/maxes, you win. Everyone memes, you lose. You cant take 40 memes and down content. So how many do you take? Who gets to go meme? Who gets to take a PvP oriented build? You start making exceptions that are not in favor of progression and you slowly accumulate people who are less progression focused and you discourage your players who are progression focused. This slowly pushes away your best players or reduces their motivation to min/max. I was actually in this EXACT circumstance in a guild within the past few months. The guild sold itself as a hardcore experience. Then we show up for MC 5 of the leaders are memes, 1 is a shadow priest, 1 is a feral (im pro feral by the way), 1 is a melee hunter (without nightfall), 2 are ret... The guild began to disintegrate. Was the content too challenging? NO! Of course not... But that wasn't the issue. The issue was that the rest of us were carrying dead weight and then sharing the spoils of our effort. How can you lead a guild and set standards while opting to reduce your own throughput? This ALWAYS causes a massive conflict. This was only with 5 memes!

Remove all of the aesthetics from the game and it leaves you with a board full of numbers. Your raid is a number VS the boss number. If your throughput and value overwhelms that of the scripted encounter, you win. The encounter does not change. It is predictable and you can overcome the number with proper preparation. Part of preparing is choosing the spec that will increase your teams odds of winning. Choosing to lower your guilds number for self-interested reasons, will never fly with your entire guild. The reality here is that it is far easier to set expectations high and make few exceptions. This is the fairest way to run a guild that will down content without discouraging your top players. If you want to go meme, you better have a well constructed case for how you intend to provide value to the team, because a raid is a team after all. Perhaps this is a simple concept for me because I grew up playing a lot of sports so I find myself more team oriented? I just find a lot of people who opt to play these specs do it for selfish reasons, whether that is subconscious or not, I am not sure.

Dont get me wrong, there is a place for EVERYONE. But dont get this twisted, if you are a meme or a suboptimal class, you will likely find yourself in a casual guild doing casual things. Lets not paint a pretend picture here. This will be the best place for you because you are casual. I dont mean this in a derogatory way, these are two entirely different crowds of people. My issue is not with meme builds... I hate when players who play meme builds start spreading false propaganda. I think this is disingenuous to new players and sets up a lot of false expectations. This is super harmful for the community both on the forum and come Classic.
Linguine wrote:
3 weeks ago
Advertising to the semi-casuals who frequent this forum that they can be whatever they want is misleading. Approval to play these specs would normally be happening on a guild forum for a player who has already proven themselves.
This is just too true. For you new guys, please hear both sides of the argument but understand that playing as a suboptimal spec will be an uphill battle. If you are up for the challenge, you are likely the right person for the job. If you read our posts and find yourself discouraged, this is the most gentle form of persuasion you will EVER receive in opposition to your spec... When you dip your toes into a game full of players with their own goals and aspirations and then begin stifling their progress, you will be met with far more volatile reactions.

Imagine being the meme who is doing AWFUL DPS in a guild that just wiped for the third week on a boss... The wipe happens. The damage gets posted and instead of taking accountability for your own short comings you say "If the difference between a dead and alive boss is 1-2 people going non meta stuff there are bigger underlying issues. " How do you think your team will respond? Perhaps there are bigger issues, but your issue is the easiest to fix. Your issue is the easiest to identify. Your number is low. You are a weak link. Unfortunately, you will find yourself replaced and rightfully so. (Hardcore mindset). In contrast a casual guild would shrug their shoulders and meetup for a pint at Goldshire in celebration of the bosses they did down! Different communities, different mindsets. Have realistic goals and find a community that suits you.

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Selexin wrote:
3 weeks ago
People dictating one way or another what someone should play is bullshit. Provide advice on playstyle, on viability and whether it is optimal. Don't try to force players to conform to the masses. If every raid composition and players spec are all exactly the same wearing the same BiS gear, this is going to be a very dull game. I hate the attitude of people having to do exactly as 'Guide X' or they are sub-optimal, that's crap. Don't make 5million clones, or everyone will get bored and quit.

Read. Make your own decisions, do your own theorycraft, try new things out, or follow an optimal guide for the simple minded. Whatever makes you happy makes you happy. If you want to cruise through 14 year old content following someone else's rules, that's your prerogative, but don't shit on people who don't enjoy the game the same way you do. Each to their own. Play the game, you will have fun your way and keep the judging bullshit to social media.
Well put.


@snickerwicket
Well I think you wont have any pvp gear in phase 1 anyways.

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Faendor wrote:
2 weeks ago
Selexin wrote:
3 weeks ago
People dictating one way or another what someone should play is bullshit. Provide advice on playstyle, on viability and whether it is optimal. Don't try to force players to conform to the masses. If every raid composition and players spec are all exactly the same wearing the same BiS gear, this is going to be a very dull game. I hate the attitude of people having to do exactly as 'Guide X' or they are sub-optimal, that's crap. Don't make 5million clones, or everyone will get bored and quit.

Read. Make your own decisions, do your own theorycraft, try new things out, or follow an optimal guide for the simple minded. Whatever makes you happy makes you happy. If you want to cruise through 14 year old content following someone else's rules, that's your prerogative, but don't shit on people who don't enjoy the game the same way you do. Each to their own. Play the game, you will have fun your way and keep the judging bullshit to social media.
Well put.
No. This is hypocritical.

says: Play the game, you will have fun your way and keep the judging bullshit to social media.

also judges min/maxing by saying: If every raid composition and players spec are all exactly the same wearing the same BiS gear, this is going to be a very dull game. I hate the attitude of people having to do exactly as 'Guide X' or they are sub-optimal, that's crap. Don't make 5million clones, or everyone will get bored and quit.

He hates min/maxing. He hates that min/maxers push their mindset on others but he is doing exactly that with his post. He then says that no one should judge eachother. His post made no sense. You don't get to play both sides of the fence. Either say your opposition to min maxing by judging that community and the impact they have on everyone else (which is massive). Or simply say that both communities should coexist and withhold your own judgement from the conversation and remain impartial.

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Stfuppercut wrote:
2 weeks ago
Faendor wrote:
2 weeks ago
Selexin wrote:
3 weeks ago
People dictating one way or another what someone should play is bullshit. Provide advice on playstyle, on viability and whether it is optimal. Don't try to force players to conform to the masses. If every raid composition and players spec are all exactly the same wearing the same BiS gear, this is going to be a very dull game. I hate the attitude of people having to do exactly as 'Guide X' or they are sub-optimal, that's crap. Don't make 5million clones, or everyone will get bored and quit.

Read. Make your own decisions, do your own theorycraft, try new things out, or follow an optimal guide for the simple minded. Whatever makes you happy makes you happy. If you want to cruise through 14 year old content following someone else's rules, that's your prerogative, but don't shit on people who don't enjoy the game the same way you do. Each to their own. Play the game, you will have fun your way and keep the judging bullshit to social media.
Well put.
No. This is hypocritical.

says: Play the game, you will have fun your way and keep the judging bullshit to social media.

also judges min/maxing by saying: If every raid composition and players spec are all exactly the same wearing the same BiS gear, this is going to be a very dull game. I hate the attitude of people having to do exactly as 'Guide X' or they are sub-optimal, that's crap. Don't make 5million clones, or everyone will get bored and quit.

He hates min/maxing. He hates that min/maxers push their mindset on others but he is doing exactly that with his post. He then says that no one should judge eachother. His post made no sense. You don't get to play both sides of the fence. Either say your opposition to min maxing by judging that community and the impact they have on everyone else (which is massive). Or simply say that both communities should coexist and withhold your own judgement from the conversation and remain impartial.
I think you misunderstood what Selexin was trying to say.

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Faendor wrote:
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I think you misunderstood what Selexin was trying to say.
It reads pretty clear.

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@Stfuppercut People dictating one way or another what someone should play is bullshit. Provide advice on playstyle, on viability and whether it is optimal. Don't try to force players to conform to the masses. If every raid composition and players spec are all exactly the same wearing the same BiS gear, this is going to be a very dull game. I hate the attitude of people having to do exactly as 'Guide X' or they are sub-optimal, that's crap. Don't make 5million clones, or everyone will get bored and quit.

Read. Make your own decisions, do your own theorycraft, try new things out, or follow an optimal guide for the simple minded. Whatever makes you happy makes you happy. If you want to cruise through 14 year old content following someone else's rules, that's your prerogative, but don't shit on people who don't enjoy the game the same way you do. Each to their own.

Except the very last sentence which I erased, I dont feel like there is anything controversial.

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While I know that these were Selexins comments, you have reposted them as your own so I will quote them as they were posted.

Faendor wrote:
2 weeks ago
If every raid composition and players spec are all exactly the same wearing the same BiS gear, this is going to be a very dull game.
For You and Selexin. Not for min/maxers. This is the difference. A min/maxer wants to play with others who min/max. It is judgemental to say that this is dull because that is only acknowledging YOUR perspective of the game. This is a judgemental stance.
Faendor wrote:
2 weeks ago
I hate the attitude of people having to do exactly as 'Guide X' or they are sub-optimal, that's crap. Don't make 5million clones, or everyone will get bored and quit.
This is quite literally the foundation of a min/max guild. These are the parameters THEY use for recruitment and play. This may be crap for you, but this is fun for them. Again, you are judging THEIR form of fun.

Making these comments and then saying "Play the game, you will have fun your way and keep the judging bullshit to social media." is hypocritical in every sense of the term.

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@Stfuppercut We are not judging the minmaxers for doing their thing, We are judging those who force us to play in a certain way just because they do. We say that it would be dull if we all were to play according to the players who think that way. We are not against anyones playstyle and we re not judging them for that, on the contrary rly.

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Faendor wrote:
2 weeks ago
@Stfuppercut We are not judging the minmaxers for doing their thing, We are judging those who force us to play in a certain way just because they do. We say that it would be dull if we all were to play according to the players who think that way. We are not against anyones playstyle and we re not judging them for that, on the contrary rly.
You will be expected to conform to whatever community you actively participate in. If you join a random group of players for a dungeon, and you are the weak link, you will be called out. If you join a hardcore guild and you cant provide adequate throughput, you will be called out. If I join a casual guild and begin to nag people with my hyper-critical min/max dogma, I will be removed. The game is based on interactions... You will constantly be interacting with others. I dont think the game would be dull if everyone min/maxed. Which is also why I surround myself with min/maxers or players who clone themselves to perform the highest amount of throughput. My version of fun is winning, I absolutely love winning. If your version of fun is different, you can surround yourself with people that you are similar to. Whenever you join one of these groups of people, you will be forced or expected to play in a certain way... You will be expected to conform to their style of play. Get a fast pulling tank in a dungeon group? Hes going to expect fast heals. Get a slow frumpy tank who has to sit down after every fight? Hes likely going to expect you to go slow and cater to his needs.

The hypocritical part of his statement was calling min/maxing dull, which is a judgement and then asking others not to judge and to simply play what they want. You then complimented his hypocritical statement. He thinks min/maxing is dull, and that is judgement and that is okay. I think memeing is a bit silly and counter-intuitive. This is also a judgement. This is also okay. I would not say that and then advocate that we don't judge one another... Unlike many hardcore oriented players, I'm actually pretty flexible with a certain amount of creativity in builds so long as players continue to provide value to their team. I would never advocate that we don't judge though... I am HIGHLY judgemental, as is Selexin! The same criteria that we use to judge others will be applied when we hunt for guilds so that we can find people who are like-minded.

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Stfuppercut wrote:
2 weeks ago
You will be expected to conform to whatever community you actively participate in. If you join a random group of players for a dungeon, and you are the weak link, you will be called out. If you join a hardcore guild and you cant provide adequate throughput, you will be called out. If I join a casual guild and begin to nag people with my hyper-critical min/max dogma, I will be removed. The game is based on interactions... You will constantly be interacting with others. I dont think the game would be dull if everyone min/maxed. Which is also why I surround myself with min/maxers or players who clone themselves to perform the highest amount of throughput. My version of fun is winning, I absolutely love winning. If your version of fun is different, you can surround yourself with people that you are similar to. Whenever you join one of these groups of people, you will be forced or expected to play in a certain way... You will be expected to conform to their style of play. Get a fast pulling tank in a dungeon group? Hes going to expect fast heals. Get a slow frumpy tank who has to sit down after every fight? Hes likely going to expect you to go slow and cater to his needs.
And how does this contradict with what I said?
Stfuppercut wrote:
2 weeks ago
The hypocritical part of his statement was calling min/maxing dull, which is a judgement and then asking others not to judge and to simply play what they want. You then complimented his hypocritical statement. He thinks min/maxing is dull, and that is a judgement and that is okay. I think memeing is a bit silly and counter-intuitive. This is also a judgement. This is also okay. I would not say that and then advocate that we don't judge one another... Unlike many hardcore oriented players, I'm actually pretty flexible with a certain amount of creativity in builds so long as players continue to provide value to their team. I would never advocate that we don't judge though... I am HIGHLY judgemental, as is Selexin! The same criteria that we use to judge others will be applied when we hunt for guilds so that we can find people who are like-minded.
I already told you he wasnt saying minmaxing is dull but rather the case if everyone did so. We are promoting the approach that you should find your own way instead of blindly follow, that was the main idea. This does not necessarily mean playing a meme spec btw.

I personally have always been more of a min-maxer then relaxed player but I dislike the approach of a player dictating what is the right way to play the game. I will always go my own way.

   Selexin
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Faendor wrote:
2 weeks ago
I personally have always been more of a min-maxer then relaxed player but I dislike the approach of a player dictating what is the right way to play the game. I will always go my own way.
Same here :smile:

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@Stfuppercut & @Faendor - There is a place for everyone. Just because I think if everyone min maxed the game would be dull, doesn't mean people shouldn't/wouldn't do it. I will watch with awe as the top echelon of guilds min-max their way to world firsts, but I think if everyone did it (or rather tried to do it), the game would become very dull/boring (predictable/stale). That is my view, but it is not everyone's view and it shouldn't be. If a group of people can get together and "win" World of Warcraft, they will likely get a lot of enjoyment out of it, if they are that way inclined.

As for meme specs, if everyone did meme specs, the game would be chaotic. There would be a lot of disputes, a lot of failures and a lot of frustrations. Sure some people would thrive and have fun, but it would not work.

What this game can harness, is less black and white than maybe what has been suggested here in this thread. There is not 2 distinct groups. There will be overlaps, which will be apparent in PUGs especially. You will have min-maxers and memes running together, and it will work fine. Dungeons are quite easy so I don't think there is going to be a huge divide caused by these two groups, and there are so many shades of gray in between that everyone evens out in the end.

I also don't think guilds will be as black and white either. I know my guild in vanilla had no 'meme' spec players, but we also weren't hardcore or perfectly min-maxed. We had some sub-par players, some great players, some min-maxed, some making it up as they went along. At the end of the day the community and friendships dictated the enjoyment more than the min-max or meme spec percentage of the group. We had players that couldn't complete the benediction staff questline and needed others to login to do it for them. But we brought them along because they were genuinely nice people and good to hang out with. This is not a min-max attitude, and is not meme related either. There are more than 50 shades of gray in WoW :wink:

Hardcore guilds of perfect min-max will exist, and they will enjoy it. Meme guilds with boomkins, ret paladins, enh shamans, melee hunters and smite priests will exist, and they will enjoy it. I was in a guild on an Australian private server and the Guild Master there wanted to make a group in a raid with Feral Druid (Leader of the Pack), Hunter (Trueshot Aura), Enh Shaman (Grace of Air & Stormstrike debuff), Ele Shaman (Nature dmg for stormstrike debuff) and Boomkin (3% Spell Crit Aura and Nature dmg for stormstrike debuff). This is like, prime meme level. But also is quite effective, the melee classes compliment each other heavily, and the enh shaman compliments the two nature casters with stormstrike debuff. It's not as good as a resto shaman dropping WF totem with 2 fury warriors and 2 rogues, but hey, it does sound like fun!

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This thread is still going? Who would have thunk that it's so difficult to realize that different people enjoy different things. :)

P.S.: I mean no offense to anyone. I just think it's mind blowing that other people try to tell me that a way of enjoying a game - the rules of which you cannot break or change - can be wrong.

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Rinkusan wrote:
2 weeks ago
This thread is still going? Who would have thunk that it's so difficult to realize that different people enjoy different things. :)

P.S.: I mean no offense to anyone. I just think it's mind blowing that other people try to tell me that a way of enjoying a game - the rules of which you cannot break or change - can be wrong.
It's still going because its a complex topic. This is a game, you should play what you enjoy first and foremost (this goes without saying - games are for fun). That being said, by opting to play something suboptimal, you will limit some of your opportunities. For some players, choosing something optimal will make leveling and getting into a guild a lot easier than by being a meme (allowing them to have fun by participating in content). Part of having fun for some players will be attending content. This is where the conversation gets a bit more nuanced. Choosing something optimal will allow someone to find a group of players to play with easier and it will lead to a positive experience. I think its disingenuous to tell everyone "be what you want to be, everything is viable!" While this is true to an extent, their journey through the game will be drastically different. In regards to OP's title, the difference between the bottom performing specs and the top performing specs is massive from a performance standpoint. This is why you will often find top players switching their main throughout the course of Classic (I will start as a hunter and swap later on as hunters fade). I would never tell someone not to play something on a personal level. If I am part of a raid, and one person is pulling terrible throughput I WILL intervene and make every effort to have them switch their spec to fix their performance. If they are not willing to make decisions that increase our performance as a team, they are not a team player and I would be in favor of removing them from the team. There is a huge difference between making personal choices that impact your experience and then joining a team and making decisions that impact everyone else's experience.

As a player, YOU have the right to have fun. You should do WHATEVER you want to get enjoyment out of the game. As soon as you join a team, you should now make decisions that are best for that team. You should be a team player. If you are not capable of being selfless and being a part of the team, you should not signup to be a part of a team. There are casual guilds that will allow anyone to roll anything, but even in these circumstances, poor performing specs that are limiting raid progression are still guilty of being selfish. Perhaps they wont call you out on it, and perhaps they will be willing to carry you... Perhaps even though you are an awful performing spec, there will still be people who are SO incompetent in your casual guild that you will outperform them regardless of the fact that they are playing a high performing spec... None of this changes the fact that you are making choices to be suboptimal. That mindset is selfish.

Viable VS Optimal... How do we define Viable? Capable of working? Where do we draw the line? What spec is not capable of working? Technically EVERYTHING can work... You could have a rogue as a bandage main that runs around tossing bandages on raiders... I tend to look at viable in terms of what is worth doing. Is this worth doing? No? Its not viable. You have people who dismiss ANYTHING that is not optimal. I dont think this is the right mentality. I sit in the middle, I am okay with ANY class or spec assuming it can provide value. As soon as it can not provide value and pull its share of work, its useless in my eyes. Then you have the other side who aim to play anything and everything that are unique. They dont care how much extra strain it puts on their team, they just want to reinvent the wheel and play something special that enhances their own experience. These players are not willing to compromise for their team.

Ex. ele shamans in raids are not viable. They can by definition work as you can complete all content with 39 players. They can occupy a spot and do nothing while still completing content and thus may be deemed as viable by some players. This class will not provide value to your team considering the other options you have available. So what do we say to the would-be ele shaman player? Play what you want? Stick to PvP where you are valuable? Dont worry about your viability, just join up and have fun?

The difference between a top performing spec and a bottom performing spec is the difference between being benched and receiving a raid invite. Linking videos to outlier players who have taken an awful spec, min/maxed the shit out of it, found a group of enablers to support their suboptimal choices and made it circumstantially function, does not help the new players who are seeking realistic information.

Gear and content is gated behind value. Consider your value. Do you know someone who will run a successful guild? Are you an influencer who can leverage your influence to accomplish content? Will you be buying a ton of gold and paying for carries to complete Naxx? The game is not won by effort... Every piece of content in Classic WoW can be overcome by value. Provide value and leverage that value for a reward. You can pay for your character to be leveled and to be carried through Naxx by using your real life money to provide value to other players.

Sub optimal specs provide less value in the game. If you are looking to achieve anything in this game, playing a suboptimal spec immediately puts your value into a deficit. You can overcome this, but you are handicapping yourself and your team.

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Play what you want. Play how you want.

At the end of the day, what makes this game so successful is the player. You choose your own fun in this game. If you genuinely enjoy min/maxing because you’re a goal oriented person, then you’ll love what you’re doing. If you mim/max because the internet told you to, you’re in for a rude awakening.

Also, do NOT fall for the “fall behind” bullshit. If you don’t care about world/server firsts, I encourage you to take your time and smell the roses a bit when leveling. It’s absolutely amazing.

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Lol just sayin if ur trying to raid ret pally or druid other than heals... you can either leave the raid or we can kick u out! Just how it is mates

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Zekken wrote:
2 weeks ago
Lol just sayin if ur trying to raid ret pally or druid other than heals... you can either leave the raid or we can kick u out! Just how it is mates
I wouldn't mind that if the player was good. But only one.

They claimed I didn't but I did...
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Faendor wrote:
2 weeks ago
I wouldn't mind that if the player was good. But only one.
So this becomes an issue. It feels nice to say "play whatever you want!" but the reality is that there will be a limit. Min/maxing is optimizing. Every raid will need to be optimized to a certain extent. There will always be a threshold where meme specs can no longer be brought. In @Faendor's case, he intends to be in a VERY hardcore guild with only 1 meme allowed! I'm not even this hardcore... Whether you are a full fledged hardcore min/max guild or a casual guild, there will be a limit to how much meme you can bring. This is why it becomes counter-intuitive to say that everyone can/should play whatever they want. This idea that you can play whatever you want, needs to be held within reason. You CAN play whatever you want, until you want to participate on a team. At which time, you will need to provide the team with value. Playing a suboptimal spec reduces your value, so you will need to be prepared to offer value in some other way. In Faendor's guild who gets to meme? How do you determine which soul will be allowed to play as they want while receiving a carry? You can begin to see how this is a very contentious issue among guilds and how a lot of guilds will simply opt to follow a strict min/max policy to avoid dealing with the MASS amounts of drama involved in balancing a sub optimal raid team. Imagine pressuring 39 players into min/maxing while allowing 1 guy to be a full blown memetard? How will this make the other raiders feel? A raid is a team. This is my issue with threads like these. As you can previously see in the thread @Faendor is happy to encourage others to play as meme, yet he also states that he is only willing to bring 1 meme to a raid... Do you see how this causes false expectations for players? I would rather be the voice of reason.

Fun. How do you have fun? Do you only want to play an elemental shaman? Be one and have fun! What about the player that wants to play an ele shaman, but also wants to raid...? This becomes a bit more challenging. He wants to play as a specific spec that brings him joy, but playing as that spec will do harm to his raid team. This is the point where we need to intervene and let players know that their choices WILL matter. Everything will not be viable. Can an ele shaman find a raid spot? Without a doubt! It wont be easy though... And you wont be in a very competitive guild... Your desires need to be held within reason so that you will have a realistic outlook on your journey through the game.

edit: bare in mind that many of these guys chanting that you can play what you want, are only willing to bring 1 meme to a 40 man raid. It feels nice to be inclusive until its raid time. When its raid time, many of these guys will be real with you and you wont like what they have to say. I made an effort to show this hypocrisy to outline a point. I'm not trying to nitpick others, but I am afraid that forums like this can become a bit of an echo chamber. We can all sit here and circle jerk eachother until its raid time. When its raid time things change quite a bit.

edit 2:Understand that these forums are composed of some of the most open and diehard fans that love the game and love the idea of playing it. These forums are flooded with some of the most accepting players you will find in Classic. You can bet that people on these forums are FAR more tolerant than the users you will find in Classic. If you are facing any pushback on these forums for your spec you can expect to multiply that by quite a lot when you are interacting with people in Classic. The min/max retail attitude and the min/max private attitude, which is further amplified by content creators who are mostly min/maxers, will influence the majority of people you are interacting with.

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Or dont plan to raid like me! :D

   Selexin couchatron
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Teldrassil
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@Stfuppercut I meant one for each of those specs. Poor choice of words, mb.

Even if I myself were to play in a guild with little toleration for meme specs, does that mean that I cannot encourage others to do otherwise?

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Faendor wrote:
2 weeks ago
Even if I myself were to play in a guild with little toleration for meme specs, does that mean that I cannot encourage others to do otherwise?
Yea, it means that you probably shouldn't. Encouraging people to play as memes when you have a low tolerance for them in raids is a pretty shitty thing to do to be honest. A lot of people on these forums have never played Classic, they're looking for legitimate advice. They come from retail where everything is ACTUALLY viable. They use the term viable a bit different than we do... Those classes are all competitive. Then they go to forums like these and see people saying "play whatever you want! Everything is viable!" Some of these people will put 240 hours into a character and then need to face the reality that they cant accomplish the goals they wanted to accomplish while being the spec they had planned. All of that can be avoided if we are candid with people right away.

Playing and having fun involves a lot of factors. How does your class play in PvP? How does it play in raids? How does it play solo? How do you plan to make gold to fuel yourself? Etc etc etc. Depending on the individual, they may not want to do all of these things. In a thread that is comparing the top and bottom classes, we are looking at performance. Threads like these are implying a comparison in raids, because lets face it, if you're playing solo, your individual performance wont matter to anyone. It becomes disingenuous to come on a forum like this and encourage others to play as meme when you have a low tolerance for memes and know the reality of their fate. Just be straightforward with people. You don't need to walk on egg shells to avoid offending the memes we have here. Most of our old memers KNOW the struggles that are associated with choosing the path less traveled. They wont bring it up themselves but they also aren't going to shed any tears if we tell people the truth.

So to specifically answer your question, it could be very damaging to advise someone to do something when you understand that their opportunities at max level will be very limited. Additionally, it becomes a bit slimy to tell people to play whatever they want in a forum that is specifically comparing the performance of the top and bottom classes/specs. The difference is massive. The difference will be so large that it will be a factor in your receiving a guild or raid invite in some circumstances.

   Tec
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Getting into the raid is only the beginning*. You show up, put time in, and... the gear goes to a class pulling more weight than you. Maybe you get some gear when they were about to turn it into a Nexus Shard anyway. Sure, this wouldn't happen in a guild of 40 friends (I'd hope), but these aren't the people I'm talking about here. Things happen in guilds, and you want to bring bargaining power with your performance. When you say you want an item you don't want the class leads to laugh.

I don't want to see this happen to anyone (unknowingly, at least) and for them to have to level another class to 60 or just quit the game entirely out of frustration.

Even in a casual guild, this will likely still happen. They aren't out to hurt you specifically because of your spec, but they are certainly at that raid to get gear for themselves and with 39 other people that can make a better argument for why that piece of gear will benefit the raid more (short of longevity and loyalty arguments), it may look a lot the same way.


*In a DKP guild they likely won't let you into the raid, precisely because people don't want to carry people that are receiving equal points. In that case getting into the raid is the end of it if you can manage it, unless they decide to give you reduced points or roll restrictions.

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