I'm looking for more examples of hard counters, but what I mean by a "hard counter" is pretty specific.
Long ago in retail vanilla I played a very bad Moonkin in greens. I distinctly remember killing warriors fully decked in T2, and this wasn't some "I got the last hit!" kill, this was a 1v1 where they couldn't run, and they couldn't kill me either. But warrior was the only class I had success with. Everyone else toasted me.
On the other hand, Druids are so heavily countered by warlocks that a warlock in greens could probably roast a druid in epics.
To be a hard counter it requires:
- An inability to escape. It's one thing to be a bad matchup, but if they can just nope out of there halfway through when they decide it's going poorly that's not really a hard counter.
- The hard counter shouldn't need to rely on gear to become a hard counter. This is class mechanics.
- Fight needs to be a 1v1 hypothetical situation. For rogues and feral druids you can specify if they got the drop/no drop.
Opening this topic to Bad Matchups. They can include but are not limited by:
- Forecast for victory is poor.
- If you knew they were specced like this, you wouldn't engage.
- You lack skills to effectively shut them down, but they also lack skills to shut you down. (Stalemate matchup)
- Can be 1v1 or also someone you'd kill first in a team fight.
I wanted to type something more here, but it's hard to really fit within your hard counter criteria. In reality Shadow priests, frost mages, pvp spec'ed rogues, and pvp spec'ed locks are all pretty damn hard to win against. Your example of hard countering a warrior in tier 2 isn't very great because warriors in tier 2 are likely prot specc'ed and wearing pve gear not pvp gear...solo warrior pvp in pve spec is hard countered by pretty much everyone else...
Hey Linguine, good question and I think I have an answer for you which meets most of the criteria!
There seems to be a lot of panic about Rogues, but I reckon that a Survival Hunter will hard counter them.
First of all let's dispel any misconceptions players may have about Survival Hunters. They are not a melee class - they are a class that excel in dictating range. They are the kings of getting jumped by a cloaky camping Rogue in melee range and then turning the fight around by surviving the initial melee encounter, using their enhanced CC abilities and then kiting away.
First of all check out the Hunter section I give in my guide about avoiding ganks, which will best prepare you for this 1v1 encounter, give you early warning and a big advantage from the get-go, or in the spirit of the guide, deter the gank from happening in the first place.
So right from the start, any Hunter taking the correct precautions against a 'drop' from a Rogue from stealth will have a great advantage. Now, not everybody is going to be as careful as that. You may not be in a position to already be standing on top of a https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=1499 and https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=1543. You may not have https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=19885/track-hidden operational due to the nature of your activity. But I'm still going to show you how even without these preliminary steps a Survival Hunter will still be a very hard counter in this scenario:
So, the Rogue unstealths behind you and gives you a whopping big https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=8676 or cheap/kidney shot. Your https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=19259 will help you survive the initial burst. If you aren't CC'ed and facing them then https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=24387, https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=13856, and https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=19263 (if used) and of course your Agility pool https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=24297 all contribute towards dodging, parrying or mitigating any further burst damage as you get out of range.
Getting out of range is easy. If you have dodged or parried you can https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=20910 which is a 5 second stun. Then you also have https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=19235 which is also a chance to stun (and will always slow them anyway letting you run). All the while whilst he is trying to deadzone you, you can be hitting him with big Raptor or Mongoose strikes enhanced by https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=19160. You can if needs be FD and lay a trap down, which when talented is even more potential 5 sec stuns and enhanced damage through talents too.
By now you're probably low on health and have used a trinket or health potion/free action potion but you have successfully gained range on the Rogue. From now on it's concussive shot and auto-shot kite, with Serpent Sting and Hunter's Mark preventing him from using Vanish and escaping, all the time swapping between Aspects to maintain your range. I haven't even mentioned pet which will also be debuffing with Screech (owl), or Charging (boar), or doing some nice damage (cat). Pets will continue to follow a target that goes into stealth as well as per original vanilla mechanics.
It's not gear dependant and purely class mechanics. Once the Rogue commits to the fight he cannot escape. It's a 1v1 hypothetical situation and the rogue has the drop. So yeah.
TLDR Survival Hunter eats Rogues
You're right about those warriors of long ago, but what got me thinking about the topic is that nowadays I laugh at Druids in PvP because I never play a warrior, and when I do, it's not alone. The fact that this class, which in my experience is the weakest PvP class in the game, could consistently kill anything warrants notice.Lne wrote: ↑6 months agoI wanted to type something more here, but it's hard to really fit within your hard counter criteria. In reality Shadow priests, frost mages, pvp spec'ed rogues, and pvp spec'ed locks are all pretty damn hard to win against. Your example of hard countering a warrior in tier 2 isn't very great because warriors in tier 2 are likely prot specc'ed and wearing pve gear not pvp gear...solo warrior pvp in pve spec is hard countered by pretty much everyone else...
The parameters are pretty small because in reality, there are not that many hard counters. But for the sake of this topic I'm going to expand it to bad matchups too and just have people specify.
@teebling I think you got a winner there! Especially if the survival hunter is a dwarf. Stoneform will remove any slows the rogue has managed to put on.
Hunter vs Mage post 40 before gear really comes online (early server life especially) is pretty fucking bad. When they get shatter and cold snap they can easily kill you in a Frost Nova (~30-35 range) but after you get Viper Sting (36) if you just max range them they’re pretty fucked already. Once Bestial Wrath comes online it’s pretty damn impossible to lose 1v1 unless you just absolutely don’t know what you’re doing.
There really shouldn't be any reason for a frost mage to lose to a warrior. I suppose if the gear gap is big enough you could have issues but that would still require the warrior to get in melee range, good luck with that.
Hell, it's even possible for low level frost mages to gank higher level warriors without much trouble. Having said that, land an unlucky resist and RIP.
Pretty sure those are roots, not stuns, so they can still say blind you. Other than that, I agree.
I think Warlocks counter Hunters pretty well, so a 'bad matchup' - especially Hunters without https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=19500 (reduced range for autos and aimed shots). Their huge health pool, fears and DoTs mean they can't really be kited. Also they have their own pet to equalise the playing field.
@Iced_Plasma It depends on what level too. Hunters are an absolute nightmare to deal with in BGs early game for any class because there're very few gap closers and CC. Bestial Wrath is also a dick with high AS pets, especially at level 40 and 41 because Warlocks get Death Coil at 42.
I think you’re right, and interestingly enough I believe the best pet for this matchup is felhunter because the hunter cannot cc it.Iced_Plasma wrote: ↑6 months agoI think Warlocks counter Hunters pretty well, so a 'bad matchup' - especially Hunters without https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=19500 (reduced range for autos and aimed shots). Their huge health pool, fears and DoTs mean they can't really be kited. Also they have their own pet to equalise the playing field.
Kiting is going to be near impossible if the felhunter is out. Warlock runs away as Felhunter runs to hunter, either you left him leave or up take cheetah off and follow while only being able to do sting and arcane shot to avoid losing any more ground. Can’t cc the felhunter because it just eats the trap right off.
Every hunter out there is gna be camping pets like BrokenTooth for this very reason. Say goodbye to your shadow bolt cast time lol.Nymis wrote: ↑6 months ago@Iced_Plasma It depends on what level too. Hunters are an absolute nightmare to deal with in BGs early game for any class because there're very few gap closers and CC. Bestial Wrath is also a dick with high AS pets, especially at level 40 and 41 because Warlocks get Death Coil at 42.
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