Before you all come attacking me and spamming #NOCHANGES, let me explain myself.
The reason why I decided to touch this topic is, as it was stated countless times on other forums aswell, the fact that the Classic Honor system is absolutely broken. It encourages botting, queue dodging and also spending unhealthy amounts of time in front of screen. All the players who have attained rank 13/14 I've talked to said that the system is dumb and it made them stop playing PvP altogether. The fact is that after playing 15-18 hours a day for a couple of weeks you're basically guaranteed to burn out.
Even if you want to go through all this for the sheer sense of accomplishment there's still gear locked behind those ranks. Now before you tell me to gid gud and start arguing that it's supposed to be for elite nolifers only let me say this. The gear is not that great, most of the specs are much better off with raid gear which can be obtained pretty casually. The problem is that the PvP sets are actually the only good set for bunch of "underdog" specs such as Enha or Feral. Even if you want to go the extra mile and put like 6-8 hours a day into the game (way more than the MAJORITY of people are willing to or even able to because of school/work) you're still just on the half of what's required to get a shot at rank 13/14.
Alternative could be the honor system we get in TBC, where individual pieces of gear can be purchased for a large amount of honor points with a weekly cap on them, so you actually have to play for a number of weeks even if you reach the cap every week. That'd make the gear available to the more casual players since they can save up for it after some time and also rewarding hardcore players since they can get the gear much faster. It'd also keep the pace of gearing relatively similar to raiding because you wouldn't be able to buy everything at once. It'd be ideal if this system was introduced in BWL patch though, since the gear is on par with Tier 2. That would encourage more people to play PvP at 60 because to be honest, now that we know that the rewards are never to be obtained with just occassional queuing vast majority of people are only going queue during BG weekends to get rep rewards. Without crossrealm, this basically means dead PvP except bunch of honor farmers.
What is your opinion guys? Do you agree with this honor system being stupid? Do you have any other possible alternatives? Let's discuss and keep it polite!
*puts pitchfork down*
No, you're right.
The system sucks, it's incredibly unhealthy and Blizzard probably shouldn't be encouraging that kind of lifestyle.
I think the fact that they've been eerily quiet about the PvP ranking system means they're probably gonna make some changes.
There will be outrage but I'd wager 90% of people weren't planning on even trying to get R14 anyways.
Just my 2c.
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Iolden • Lne • Gensei • ClassicRaids
First, I'd like to say that I think you make some strong arguments and I thank you for opening up the discussion in a mature manner. However, I don't think the TBC Honor system belongs in Classic. Now, with that being said, I am NOT in the #nochanges crowd, but I am in the #smartchanges crowd. Smart Changes meaning improving quality of life, but not changing how the game is played. There were a TON of new features added with each expansion that were sold as "quality of life" but in actually had a huge negative strain on the game in the long run. I don't want that, and that's what I think the 'Honor for Gear' system is. I think one of the most important aspects of Classic is the strive for greatness. I don't believe everyone deserves access to the PVP gear, especially the epic sets. I think the purchase of gear regardless of rank is a 'gateway drug' to the 'welfare epic' system the vanilla loyalists & retail refugees hate so much.
I think you make some strong and intriguing points, but I personally don't want to see that.
The Footpad
By the looks of it, it all comes down to wether the system rewards time dedication in long term or in bursts.
Honestly, and this is the opinion of someone who didn't play Vanilla so take it with some grsins of salt, it sucks a bit that if I muster the few hours I have a week to play PvP, I still have the same worth to the system than someone who only tried it less days more hours.
I understand the whys of both options and will agree with whichever comes out, though.
Now let's pray I didn't say something stupid.
With change of pvp system you would have to change everything about it including the items you get from it. You would have to make completely new system that would suit the Vanilla experience.
What do you define as "vanilla experience"? It's still not gonna be like in 2004 because people have figured out a lot more things and can now calculate whether the PvP is worth their time or no. If the only reward they can get unless they are dumping all their time into it are rep rewards, then the bulk of players is only going to play on BG weekends. I think that could pretty much ruin the whole PvP.
Anyway, the honor system was introduced in TBC pre-patch so technically it was in Vanilla for a short time.
@Kristhan I meant that the new system would have to suit the model of slow continuous gain in power. It would have to reflect the Classic game design to be fair opposed to PVE progression.
You really know how to hurt someone's feelings
What else is there to life without farming honor!?So long as the system promotes actually killing other players rather than zerging an objective, I am good with it.
@Faendor That's exacty what I was trying to adress. In TBC pre-patch they introduced the new system and the only fault was they didn't care about consequences because the gear was soon to be irrelevant so the prices were a joke. If this time around they increased the prices the pace would be just fine. Certain honor cap per week would be the same as having to wait for raids to reset.
To make the maths easier, let's just say you can get maximum 500 honor a week and one piece of gear costs 700-1000 honor points. Let's say with 3 or 4 hours every day you can get to around 200 honor. That means the most dedicated players will get the gear in a few weeks it will take a couple of months to complete the set with a casual playtime. The gearing pace is still slower than doing PvE but it actually makes playing PvP from time to time worth it.
@Cletus Well, actually that's the exact issue. Current system doesn't reward killing players so the premades just complete as much WSGs as they can in less than 5 minutes. You could farm the actual honor points this way and be rewarded for it too. 1 HK = 1 Honor point and you'd get some bonus honor for winning in BG. This way you're only fighting against your own faction by trying to get more honor than they have just so you get a better standing.
I think the PvP system is stupid but I wouldn't want to changes. Heck, I think PvE is garbage too but I still wouldn't want to change it. No matter where you hit the nail on this, the problem is that any change can and probably will have unforeseen consequences. The last thing you want to do for the health of this game is to give people a reason to abandon it saying it's not authentic and go back to private servers.
As for your system, it completely kills off the title/ranking system that Vanilla will have in place. These changes would not be about making the game more "available" to casual players, it's just about giving them easier rewards for participation and it's generally not something that people want to hear about. PvP won't be dead since there's at least R3 discounts to farm, R10 cool looking gear which is accessible to people outside of a premade, AV exalted rewards which will be worth the time investment.
I mean, I don't know, the philosophy behind this sounds like the equivalent of implementing a badge system to make PvE more accessible to casuals because not everyone is going to be able to get into AQ/Naxx and it would only be fair to encourage people to raid, right? So we just allow people to farm badges off old raids and get old gear that way, so the hardcore people are still going to be at an advantage for not having to farm badges as much and the casuals can catch up.
I remember one of my best friends quitting in WotLK because of this
I'll be R14 regardless of the system. Prepared to no life it, if required
@Nymis Thanks for response! I actually agree that some people may be pissed but the vast majority will either not care or appreciate the change. A lot of people who like to talk shit about private servers will very quickly become just like the players on them. I think they are quite accurate representation of how it looks like when we apply knowledge we've gained over 15 years to Classic.
I'll take your example of AV exalted rewards. Now I played on Kronos 3 which is pretty high pop and it has way more online players than most of Classic realms will. When you try to queue for AV or AB outside their respective BG weekend, the queue just won't pop. You may wait for 2 hours and still no pop. That's because you only have to casually play it for 2 weekends and you get the exalted rep and then it's done. Only players who don't care about rep are the honor farmers and they only queue for WSG because it's the most efficient way to get it.
I think that Blizzard will have to eventually adress this since no one will play it. Why do you think they'd change the whole system in a pre-patch if they didn't realize it's broken? I guess you can say you'll PvP for fun but good luck getting the AV to pop with 15 other people that do it just for fun at the same time as you. The battles are 40 on 40 and that just won't happen outside BG weekends anymore, unless they tweak the system.
@Kristhan You have to consider that on private servers there's people playing on 3 different timezones with a high-population on all the time. Low population split into more definitive timezones could mean lower weekly standings which could mean a more accessible grind. Or maybe not. But I'm sure the grind and PvP is going to feel different when you can't just no-life it 24/7 with NA and EU folks.
If AVs are to die of natural causes they should be left to die of natural causes. Revamping the entire PvP system like a TBC launch was around the corner would devastate the entire community and many would lose all faith in Blizzard if that became an acceptable thing. There is legitimate concern if Blizzard do decide to revamp critical features about the game for the sake of the community that they would do so again for other areas of the game, such as PvE.
There is no tragedy in not seeing AV outside of certain weekends. If that's the price we have to pay for the (as close as possible to the) original experience of Vanilla, with no cross-realming of any sorts, then so be it. However, I do think there are features Blizz could consider implementing to help with BG participation without revamping the entire PvP system, namely:
* lowering the minimum number of players required for BGs to start
* increasing the amount of honor received in AV
* strengthening units to prevent rushes etc.
As for me, I won't PvP for fun - I'll WPvP for fun. I'll only be doing AV up to where I can get my Exalted rewards with my guild and then I'll probably be sick of it like most of the other raiders. With all due respect, just because a few casuals want to have quick AVs on their 4 hours / week play schedule doesn't mean we should revamp an entire honor system for it. I have no stake in PvP gear myself, but I know that other people will and I know that gear will mean something for them. Allowing every noob to systematically acquire it would lower its significance.
On a #smartchanges note, I'd be interested in the idea of rated bg's for vanilla? Maybe it's too big a change, but I'd caution against overreacting against the idea just because it's something added into retail in later expansions (as the purists tend to do).
A big problem is not just the unhealthy and ungodly amount of hours one had to grind for higher ranks, but that people who got those high ranks were typically always those part of a well-geared, on vent, organized 10 man squad that just dumpstered any pug group of solo players who casually queued up, essentially making the game entirely unfun for half the players in the bg. Led to lots of people afking or just not pvping.
If I had to make a pitch to some of the more reasonable #nochanges crowd, it'd be that one of your big talking points is how the game required you to gruop up with people and that it be a social experience. Well, if higher levels of PvP gear, or at least some currency for them, can only be attained through the premade-only, ranked queue, does that not accomplish this ideal of vanilla that is so often heralded as a mark of its greatness? And at the same time, casual PvP is made far more accessible.
I think the PvP system as a whole is a very delicate matter. If they make the gear "easier" (as in reasonably acquirable, on the same timeline or slower than raiding) I would possibly reconsider what class I am going to play.
Reasoning is simple: Maybe I should play a class or a spec that has PvP rewards that I can actually use.
Although I am all for no changes, I would start wishing that they had a PvP set for me. And if I'm thinking about that, then surely others are. And what's to stop people from asking for a variety of PvP sets to be added once the changes start being made?
I always despise this idea that any change is a slippery slope to totally overhauling the game. It's called a fallacy for a reason.Linguine wrote: ↑6 years agoI think the PvP system as a whole is a very delicate matter. If they make the gear "easier" (as in reasonably acquirable, on the same timeline or slower than raiding) I would possibly reconsider what class I am going to play.
Reasoning is simple: Maybe I should play a class or a spec that has PvP rewards that I can actually use.
Although I am all for no changes, I would start wishing that they had a PvP set for me. And if I'm thinking about that, then surely others are. And what's to stop people from asking for a variety of PvP sets to be added once the changes start being made?
Additionally, I don't think people are saying the gear should necessarily be "easier." I mean if you think about it, the old system wasn't that "hard" to get to high rank given your RL allowed you the time and you could physically deal with playing the game that much. That's not "hard" in the sense of a meaningful challenge.
What I was proposing above would be that the best gear is exclusively gotten from a pre-made only queue, like Ranked BG's, and there could be a number of systems in place for how it works. Achieving a certain win rate with a required minimum number of games for a month, or simple points within a given month with a per-week cap. Whatever.
It's in everyone's interest for there to be great rewards in the game for those who put forth a lot of effort and do great things in the game. It's in no one's interest to use a system that forces people to "no-life" the game to a super unhealthy extent in order to get those same rewards.
Agree completely. I'm worn out trying to explain this to folks over the last 10 years. Now I'm basically like that drunk homeless guy who shouts at the sky and everyone dismisses him as they pass by.Kristhan wrote: ↑6 years ago
@Cletus Well, actually that's the exact issue. Current system doesn't reward killing players so the premades just complete as much WSGs as they can in less than 5 minutes. You could farm the actual honor points this way and be rewarded for it too. 1 HK = 1 Honor point and you'd get some bonus honor for winning in BG. This way you're only fighting against your own faction by trying to get more honor than they have just so you get a better standing.
First of all, it's called a "slippery slope" argument, and it's not a fallacy by default. You might want to read on it. If you can prove that the slope is real, it's an actual argument. The reason why this "slope" is actually real is because it has happened before and, given the fact that Blizzard is listening to the community, might happen again.Gensei wrote: ↑6 years agoI always despise this idea that any change is a slippery slope to totally overhauling the game. It's called a fallacy for a reason.
Additionally, I don't think people are saying the gear should necessarily be "easier." I mean if you think about it, the old system wasn't that "hard" to get to high rank given your RL allowed you the time and you could physically deal with playing the game that much. That's not "hard" in the sense of a meaningful challenge.
What I was proposing above would be that the best gear is exclusively gotten from a pre-made only queue, like Ranked BG's, and there could be a number of systems in place for how it works. Achieving a certain win rate with a required minimum number of games for a month, or simple points within a given month with a per-week cap. Whatever.
It's in everyone's interest for there to be great rewards in the game for those who put forth a lot of effort and do great things in the game. It's in no one's interest to use a system that forces people to "no-life" the game to a super unhealthy extent in order to get those same rewards.
Secondly, it's worth noting that the changes which have lead to the game being in the current state did not happen over night. They happened very gradually and people were initially welcoming of each change - and in retrospect, if you were to propose each and every single one of those changes to Vanilla independently, most people would be alright with them. However, piece by piece they have built up into the amalgamation of casual quality of life changes which have rendered almost all the achievements in that game useless.
Thirdly, it is in a lot of people's interest that these rewards are exclusive due to the fact that these rewards derive meaning in the virtual world precisely on the lack of availability to the average player. This is the paradoxical fallacy of every "I don't want any changes, but" argument out there - if meaningful rewards become more accessible to the public, they are no longer meaningful rewards.
Finally, the fact that people want the gear to be easier to get is exactly what they are arguing about here. The current system requires a certain effort which they are unable to put. All these changes would make it easier for them to get the gear. Whether they think it's a great idea to do it with Honor points, minimum number of games, it's whatever - they still want to get the same gear on a level of effort which they find reasonable.
In my humble opinion, honor needed to get R12, 13 and 14 should be reduced. People nowadays don't have time for sitting in front of the screen for 14-18 hours per day for few weeks. Reducing requiresd honor to the half of the current and changing the settings of summary the ranks would be better than changing Honor system totally. I mean R14 can obtain just "Only top .1% of players can have this rank". That's insane nowadays, so f.e 0,5 or 1% of the realms players can obtain it maybe more...
Greetings!
Sorry for my poor eng :>
But what if you can create a system that makes these rewards just as exclusive while not requiring no lifing? Is that automatically just bad even if it achieves the same distribution of rewards?
You can't if your distribution of rewards is relative to the top individual on the server.
Also, the premise of "we're creating" - us, who? The players? We're not creating jack. The developers? They're focused on recreating Vanilla WoW as it was in patch 1.12 by definition of their purpose and intent for even starting this project. The only ones who could be "creating" such systems could be the developers for private servers.
I would submit that the remedy for no-lifing is to be on a low-pop pvp server, one where a person could more easily be the allstar of their server by comparison. Some drawbacks include a worse overall economy and fewer people to group with for quests, raids, etc. It's not impossible to get to R14 but you have to be willing to make certain sacrifices in other areas if you aren't willing to no-life. There doesn't need to be a new system to ensure everyone gets high level PvP gear for the same reason there doesn't need to be a system so that every caster gets https://classic.wowhead.com/item=22589/ ... e-guardian. The dead horse here is that R14 isn't (and shouldn't be) for everyone. The gear shouldn't be for everyone. It is intended as a reward for those few who are extraordinarily dedicated. That's what makes it a reward.
...but that's not what I'm saying. Like that's literally the opposite of what I'm saying. I'm saying that if you could create a system where the rewards are just as exclusive, but does not require the no-lifing, are you going to automatically say that system is bad or it can't exist?Cletus wrote: ↑6 years agoI would submit that the remedy for no-lifing is to be on a low-pop pvp server, one where a person could more easily be the allstar of their server by comparison. Some drawbacks include a worse overall economy and fewer people to group with for quests, raids, etc. It's not impossible to get to R14 but you have to be willing to make certain sacrifices in other areas if you aren't willing to no-life. There doesn't need to be a new system to ensure everyone gets high level PvP gear for the same reason there doesn't need to be a system so that every caster gets https://www.wowhead.com/item=22589/atie ... e-guardian. The dead horse here is that R14 isn't (and shouldn't be) for everyone. The gear shouldn't be for everyone. It is intended as a reward for those few who are extraordinarily dedicated. That's what makes it a reward.
I fancied my idea earlier that pre-made groups should have their own queue for getting the high-end PvP gear (it would not be accessible to solo players pugging in the queue). The goal of this is that solo queue/pugging is made for more accessible so people don't get their time wasted being thrown up against pre-made, well-geared enemies that they have zero chance beating, and they can still push hard for some blue quality PvP gear. Hell, if you want to get into a premade group for the epics, grind out soloqueue for the blues and prove your mettle. Meanwhile people who just want to casually PvP still can do so without fear of getting rolled by premades in unwinnable games.
Yes. Rewards should be exclusive. Yes, I think the overall distribution of rewards in vanilla was fine. I'm not saying that I'm wanting to change that (but you're acting like I am). I'm saying that the means by which that distribution can be achieved can be remedied to a more healthy state of play for both the players themselves and the community.
1. NoGensei wrote: ↑6 years agoare you going to automatically say that system is bad or it can't exist?
I fancied my idea earlier that pre-made groups should have their own queue for getting the high-end PvP gear (it would not be accessible to solo players pugging in the queue). The goal of this is that solo queue/pugging is made for more accessible so people don't get their time wasted being thrown up against pre-made, well-geared enemies that they have zero chance beating, and they can still push hard for some blue quality PvP gear. Hell, if you want to get into a premade group for the epics, grind out soloqueue for the blues and prove your mettle. Meanwhile people who just want to casually PvP still can do so without fear of getting rolled by premades in unwinnable games.
Yes. Rewards should be exclusive. Yes, I think the overall distribution of rewards in vanilla was fine. I'm not saying that I'm wanting to change that (but you're acting like I am). I'm saying that the means by which that distribution can be achieved can be remedied to a more healthy state of play for both the players themselves and the community.
2. Current WoW already has systems that support these playstyles and dole out gear accordingly and many people seem to dislike it. By creating separate queues for pre-mades you are essentially recreating RBGs. Additionally, You never really have a 0% chance of winning/losing. I never made it past rank 11 and I never thought going into a BG against a premade was a waste of my time. My gear was never top-tier and I didn't care because I enjoy the fighting. It's why I will go to the gates of an Alliance city and pick a fight outside the main gate. There are many ways for people to PvP casually without doing BG's. Gear is not a necessity for PvP as there are many Vanilla PvP movies out there that will show you. I once 2-shot a R14 warrior that was part of a premade. We lost that fight but it is still one of my most memorable moments (if not THE most) in WoW.
I understand now that your stance is not about the gear and more about the overall experience for casual PvPers but my argument for that is that the system you are describing already exists.
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