I don't want to bring over the non stop posts about Loot Trading being announced to be in Classic WoW. But I did want to share my opinion on the topic here and see what you all have to think about the discussion going on with Loot Trading.

Most of the talking points against Loot Trading that are discussed usually go,
It's not the WoW Vanilla Authentic Experience.
The ninja looting (where friends all roll for an item).
#NoChanges

And the points people discuss for Loot Trading that I have seen are,
It saves GM time!
It saves players time.
Who cares it effects nothing.
If there is ninja looting, the server will deal with it by black listing those players.
... maybe a few more that I can't remember.

I think it's really easy to lean into being for Loot trading, because we don't necessarily know how people, or even whole server communities will react to Loot Trading when it's actually being played. Maybe there won't be any ninja looting, and if there are, there will be consequences for those people?

After reading and thinking about it more, I am definitely against Loot Trading being in Classic WoW. But really, either way I will play and enjoy it. I just feel it would really suck if I'm in a dungeon or a raid with a pug and there is a group of friends sneakily stealing loot for themselves by having multiple rolls. Mostly because no one will really know. Unless people look to see if that person equips that items, or if someone who lost the roll ends up equipping that item that was traded to them by a friend who did win the roll.

The solution people usually offer is just, "don't add Loot Trading, and don't offer GM services for people who messed up rolls/Master Looter misclicks." or
"just have GM services without Loot Trading."



This is where I really wanted to express my opinion, as a suggestion.

What if everyone in a group has to agree (with a toggle) to Loot Trading in order for it to be active, otherwise it's not active and it's BoP like in Vanilla. So with an organised group with a master looter. All of the party/raid/guild members can agree to Loot Trading and have the assurance that if the master looter messes up, or someone decides after the fact and wants to let others re-roll, they can then use Loot Trading in an organised way to redistribute the loot. On the other hand, if you are in a pug and you do not want Loot Trading, but the all of the others do, they can just kick you and find someone more accommodating.

I'm not really sure if this might just add more issues with large groups of friends strong arming people into Loot Trading and then ninja looting anyway. Anyway just a suggestion for a discussion hah.


I think people just don't have anything else to argue about #NoChanges! ya dig?

Ye I really hope they avoid using Loot Trading.

I wish they had some balls and just used the old system without gm support on loot issues.
BUT, they most likely wont because it makes it cheaper for them not having gm's working on wrongly distributed loot.

What if everyone in a group has to agree (with a toggle) to Loot Trading in order for it to be active, otherwise it's not active and it's BoP like in Vanilla.

It will never happen, but even if it did it would be a bad idea. Anyone using Loot Trading would stand out as being "up" to something and it wouldn't really fix the pressure on GMs if people collectively decide not to use it. ML in dungeons is a big no-no.

On the other hand, if you are in a pug and you do not want Loot Trading, but the all of the others do, they can just kick you and find someone more accommodating.

Yeah, that's a big problem. Back when people in retail could still use ML, they would "reserve" tier tokens and very powerful items for "organizing" a raid group. You know how frustrating it is to look for a PUG to clear something and see a bunch of assholes who can't stomach a bit of RNG just standing there and waiting for a group to form so they can get guaranteed loot on whatever they needed with minimal extra effort involved (anyone can lead a heroic raid in retail).

Yes, I know you don't have to apply if you don't agree with the terms and that's fair game, but it's still shitty and divisive nonetheless. Good luck pulling something like that in Vanilla where it takes significant effort to organize a PUG raid and the only reasonable thing you can reserve in raids are materials.

I see every kick in the nuts as an opportunity for something better.

I proposed my solution to this in an older thread . I'll try to get as many Horde guilds as I can to work together and log all the assholes on the server in a collective "blacklist". If anyone can show, beyond any doubt, that an item was ninja looted in any dungeon (be it RFC or BRD) via screenshots then we put that player on a blacklist and share that blacklist with our guilds, then further encourage whoever plans on making a dungeon group to check that list before signing up anyone. Also, I'll try to push for people to agree to kick out of our guilds whoever is caught doing something like that. With Loot Trading in place there is no excuse for missclicking or anything.

I wonder how difficult it is to code to only allow loot trading in raids...

I mean, that's where the problem is, right?

I didnt even know you could open a ticket and have GM help for genuine mess up roles. I mean If an entire guild did it I could see it being done in remote and rare circumstances, but is this really a thing that happened? If so just scrap it. Its not that hard to click the right roll, and if you do mess it up thats for the guild to sort out.

It has already been announced that it will be in game so there is no point hoping or wishing that it wont, however it would have been nice if they restricted it to guild groups and raids

I like your suggestion krispex but implementing it would take you back to square one again which is the ‘no changes’ argument seeing as this is not a vanilla solution.

Blizzard have used get-out clauses in their PR often, with phrases like ‘we will make Classic as authentic as possible’. There has been an outcry which is good as they may listen, but then again maybe not.

The best solution of all, which covers every possibility of how the game turns out, is to run dungeons with guildmates and friends you can trust not to fuck you over for pixels.

teebling wrote: ↑

6 years ago

I like your suggestion krispex but implementing it would take you back to square one again which is the ‘no changes’ argument seeing as this is not a vanilla solution.

Blizzard have used get-out clauses in their PR often, with phrases like ‘we will make Classic as authentic as possible’. There has been an outcry which is good as they may listen, but then again maybe not.

The best solution of all, which covers every possibility of how the game turns out, is to run dungeons with guildmates and friends you can trust not to fuck you over for pixels.

Yeah, you pretty much nailed it at the end there. If they're going to add it, which is most likely, it may be better to just find trusted people to dungeon/raid with to avoid the risk of being ninja'd by lame friend groups.

You do lose a bit of the "community" aspect of Vanilla WoW by doing so though. I remember fondly scraping together dungeon groups for low level dungeons.

I guess at least the lower level dungeons have less consequence, as there will always be a better loot upgrade quicker then if you were looking for pre bis at level 60.

However, why else would you run low level dungeons for, but to get loot and maybe the few quests you may have.

Nymis wrote: ↑

6 years ago

Yeah, that's a big problem. Back when people in retail could still use ML, they would "reserve" tier tokens and very powerful items for "organizing" a raid group. You know how frustrating it is to look for a PUG to clear something and see a bunch of assholes who can't stomach a bit of RNG just standing there and waiting for a group to form so they can get guaranteed loot on whatever they needed with minimal extra effort involved (anyone can lead a heroic raid in retail).

Yeah, no matter if there is loot trading or not, there will always be the people/groups that want to force others into their way.

Nymis wrote: ↑

6 years ago

I see every kick in the nuts as an opportunity for something better.

I proposed my solution to this in an older thread . I'll try to get as many Horde guilds as I can to work together and log all the assholes on the server in a collective "blacklist". If anyone can show, beyond any doubt, that an item was ninja looted in any dungeon (be it RFC or BRD) via screenshots then we put that player on a blacklist and share that blacklist with our guilds, then further encourage whoever plans on making a dungeon group to check that list before signing up anyone. Also, I'll try to push for people to agree to kick out of our guilds whoever is caught doing something like that. With Loot Trading in place there is no excuse for missclicking or anything.

Yeah, I've seen people talk about blacklists a bit. I think it's probably the best solution if loot trading goes live. Only thing is it's a lot of work and people have to follow it if it is to have any impact.

Also just to add something on to my original post - that I don’t think that groups of colluding people ninja-ing items will be as common as folks are making it out to be. Sure this might happen every now and again and it will suck but on the whole there are good people out there.

You’ve got to remember too that in the spirit of Classic people will be relying on each other so much - the general feeling of collaboration and teamwork will surely make players more compassionate to each other vs what you might expect from BfA where the every man for himself mentality pervades everything.

teebling wrote: ↑

6 years ago

Also just to add something on to my original post - that I don’t think that groups of colluding people ninja-ing items will be as common as folks are making it out to be. Sure this might happen every now and again and it will suck but on the whole there are good people out there.

QSHFT (SH is for So Hard). This is why I'm not too worried about loot trading (even if I can see it would maybe be better to remove it or restrict it to just raids or something). I genuinely believe that 1/200 instances it is utilized, it will be used for good and not abused. When it is abused, it's gonna suck, and you got anywhere from double to quadruple the amount of people to blacklist, but it can't be that much of a problem. Thanks for putting my feelings into words, Teeb <3

The automated player report and ban system, however...

teebling wrote: ↑

6 years ago

You’ve got to remember too that in the spirit of Classic people will be relying on each other so much - the general feeling of collaboration and teamwork will surely make players more compassionate to each other vs what you might expect from BfA where the every man for himself mentality pervades everything.

I really do hope it is like this, because this is how I feel as well.

Hogbobson wrote: ↑

6 years ago

The automated player report and ban system, however...

Oh yeah, a whole other topic as well. I didn't realise the impact that this change would actually make until I started seeing posts about it, and videos that people posted.

It's really got to go. I would rather see gold farming spam than get auto banned/muted by mad kids.

Given the choice between no gm support for loot fuck ups and loot trading, I'll gladly pick loot trading. I've had several master loot fuck ups over the years and a lot of it is due to shitty ui issues etc. We've also had accidental ninja looting.

Yes there will be some abuse of the loot trading system, but this is really up there in the pick your battles category of changes. It won't affect the actual game substantially. It will lead to some casual players and other pugs who join guild/friend groups getting screwed over but in reality these type of groups often reserve items of contention and masterloot bosses, so this is unlikely to substantially worsen things for casual players.

I'm about as hardcore of a vanilla player as they come and this is definitely not a change I feel even the least bit concerned over.

I still think loot trading should not be in Classic, and any GM support about it should be removed.

@Lne

It won't effect

*affect

I've had several master loot fuck ups over the years

You are/were always free to contact GMs/support to handle that issue.

this is really up there in the pick your battles category of changes

The "pick your battles" mindset is defeatist in nature, not to mention a terrible flaw in argumentation. You shouldn't go with the premise that "changes need to happen" and because "some changes are better than others" we should be okay with them in order to fill some imaginary quota of changes. It is a stupid line of reasoning - like saying "murders need to happen, therefore it's best if we just kill grandma".

The bottom line is that changes which can be prevented don't need to happen.

It will lead to some casual players and other pugs who join guild/friend groups getting screwed over but in reality these type of groups often reserve items of contention and masterloot bosses,

Yes, but reserving a piece of loot beforehand is completely different from having your friends roll on it and pass it to you. It's one thing to say "if this thing drops, we're taking it - if you don't like it, you're free to leave now before the raid starts" and another thing to have your friends roll for something they don't need/can't use/have no right to pass it on to you.

Also, "in reality", most groups I've ever been part of on private servers did not reserve items. Even the PUG raids for MC were only reserving materials. PUGs are as common as they are on retail, and you're shooting yourself in the foot reserving items beforehand if you're starting from scratch, not to mention no guild is going to be okay sending 5-10 players to your raid if they're not going to be able to roll on certain items they might need.

so this is unlikely to substantially worsen things for casual players.

Casual players don't usually have entire groups of people to roll for items and pass it on to them. It will most definitely impact them and not the organized groups.

Nymis wrote: ↑

6 years ago

I've had several master loot fuck ups over the years
You are/were always free to contact GMs/support to handle that issue.

The "pick your battles" mindset is defeatist in nature, not to mention a terrible flaw in argumentation. You shouldn't go with the premise that "changes need to happen" and because "some changes are better than others" we should be okay with them in order to fill some imaginary quota of changes. It is a stupid line of reasoning - like saying "murders need to happen, therefore it's best if we just kill grandma".

The bottom line is that changes which can be prevented don't need to happen.

Yes, but reserving a piece of loot beforehand is completely different from having your friends roll on it and pass it to you. It's one thing to say "if this thing drops, we're taking it - if you don't like it, you're free to leave now before the raid starts" and another thing to have your friends roll for something they don't need/can't use/have no right to pass it on to you.

Also, "in reality", most groups I've ever been part of on private servers did not reserve items. Even the PUG raids for MC were only reserving materials. PUGs are as common as they are on retail, and you're shooting yourself in the foot reserving items beforehand if you're starting from scratch, not to mention no guild is going to be okay sending 5-10 players to your raid if they're not going to be able to roll on certain items they might need.

Casual players don't usually have entire groups of people to roll for items and pass it on to them. It will most definitely impact them and not the organized groups.

Re: being free to contact gms/support to handle issue-I know, I specifically noted that I'd rather have loot trading support if forced to choose that or no gm support (which is a solution being advocated for as an alternative to loot trading).

re the pick your battles statement--maybe pick your battles isn't the right phrase. This is in the category of making a mountain out of a mole hill. I'm with Teebling in expecting less than 1/200 times item trading is used it being abused. This isn't going to affect classic's game play or it's social dynamic substantially so I'm not about to care. In fact, I've spent more time typing in these type of forum threads than is justified by how little I care about this--If i wasn't waiting for classic I certainly wouldn't be posting about this .

re: pugs and reserving items: Your experience has been drastically different than mine. Many if not most of the pugs I've ran on private servers did reserve items. I'm also betting that the legendaries were reserved in your pug mcs. The likely reason nothing else but mats and legendaries were reserved in your pug mc runs is because people don't care about most mc loot.

Re: it affecting casuals. I never said it wouldn't affect them, I predicted that it would not substantially affect them. And, I stand by that assessment. I think the outcry by the vocal no changes people on this topic is way overblown and not in line with the impact it will actually have on classic. It's a mole hill not a mountain no matter how repeatedly, how passionately, or how loudly people cry about it.

Thank you for taking the time to respond to my post. I don't think we'll ever agree on this topic, but hopefully very soon time will tell whether I underestimated it's impact.

May loot trading never hurt you :)

@Lne

> It's a mole hill not a mountain no matter how repeatedly, how passionately, or how loudly people cry about it.

Do you have any argument to explain this? Any argument at all? Like, how exactly isn't this going to be abused and how exactly it won't affect casuals who won't have dedicated/organized groups for dungeons most of the time.

If I have 3 friends with me and we need a 5th person to join, what exactly is going to be stopping me from loot trading items with my mates? If we're running UBRS what's stopping us from rolling need on an item we already have and then passing it to the one who doesn't have it?

AFAIK this is only going to hurt people in 5 mans anyway, and occassionally at that. Raid looting can be controlled whether that’s with DKP or in-game loot master solutions.

Maybe on the rare occasion that it does happen it will be annoying for someone collecting pre-BiS gear at level 60. Or during levelling, where it’s really not a big deal to get flashy new gear in the first place.

If it incredibly time consuming for Blizzard to remove loot trading then I’m against having it removed - IMHO there are far more important things the dev team can focus on.

If it is simple enough to remove loot trading then by all means do it and people can use tickets for any fuckups like they used to do. Done and dusted.

It’s really not a big deal for me personally.

Nymis wrote: ↑

6 years ago

@Lne

> It's a mole hill not a mountain no matter how repeatedly, how passionately, or how loudly people cry about it.

Do you have any argument to explain this? Any argument at all? Like, how exactly isn't this going to be abused and how exactly it won't affect casuals who won't have dedicated/organized groups for dungeons most of the time.

If I have 3 friends with me and we need a 5th person to join, what exactly is going to be stopping me from loot trading items with my mates? If we're running UBRS what's stopping us from rolling need on an item we already have and then passing it to the one who doesn't have it?

You just explained it for me...in the worst case scenario as you describe, it's just not a mountain of a problem. To further the point, in order for what you just described to even manifest as a problem requires: (1) the system to be abused; (2) people to not blacklist those who do abuse it; and (3) people to not preemptiively masterloot runs they care about or suspect it being an issue in.

In the grand scheme of vanilla wow, I'm sorry but that niche scenario of abuse is less than a mole hill for me. It's irrelevant experience outside of the short time ill be leveling and prebis gearing. On top of that, even during the short window of leveling/prebis gearing, I always structure my groups such that there is minimal competition for loot and if there is potential loot competition i discuss it before the group and either accept the random chance factor or find another pug.

I know it might have the awful side effect of you having to actually talk to the pugs in your group or having to figure out which tanks/guilds/and group leaders are trustworthy and maybe have to run a blacklist mod to keep track of baddies on your server, but this, if anything, could be a good thing as it'll foster more of the vanilla server feel where you actually get to know good tanks/guilds/group leaders as well as the bad trolls/ninjas and incorporate it all into your experience.

So TL;DR: of the argument is; even assuming what you say will be omnipresent, I couldn't care less about it, and thus, it's a molehill at best, because there are plenty of adequate mechanisms to handle such ninja looters.

It would be interesting if there was a system that would tell everybody in the group/raid, whenever the person who rolled on certain item had already won it in the past so you would know if they are abusing loot trading.

Faendor wrote: ↑

6 years ago

It would be interesting if there was a system that would tell everybody in the group/raid, whenever the person who rolled on certain item had already won it in the past so you would know if they are abusing loot trading.

nah, too much work for blizz...

I see the problem with loot trading, I'm not fond of it either, but honestly, it's gotten a bit overblown. If you're ripped off in a dungeon while leveling that sucks but not that big issue. I know gear is used for way longer back then, but you will outlevel it anyway.
About raids, well, a raid group is something that should stick together, a clan really should bring decent folks along, with whom this shouldn't be a problem.

Am I missing something here?

@ToriK For low level dungeons it's piss, yeah - but we're thinking Maraudon onwards in general. People will run dungeons like Maraudon, BRD, Strath, Scholo, LBRS, UBRS not once, but dozens of times in hopes of getting specific item which could be their pre-raid BiS (or even BiS) for a few patches. There are level 40 greens which are better than most level 60 blues for some classes, haha - Vanilla is crazy (i.e. poorly itemized) like that.

The thing is it definitely won't affect any half-serious player who knows it's best to get in a guild and run dungeon groups there. It's more of a concern for casuals and new players lol. Going from a 20% chance to drop and 50-100% chance to win a roll for it to 20% chance to drop and 20% chance to win a roll for it could be devastating for some.