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1 month ago (1.13.2)
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I have another question. Does 1 handed spec increase all dmg in classic, including conc and holy shield?

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1 month ago (1.13.2)
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Nope. Just increases the damage from your white auto attacks, and your Seal if Righteousness when wearing a one handed weapon.

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1 month ago (1.13.2)
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Regarding holy shield, the aggro range of something like a mc giant is about a second of running. You can proc the shield while running forward as soon as combat starts, getting the threat, and also block first hit plus have global cool down ready

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1 month ago (1.13.2)
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So update on a MC I've done yesterday. This is my 2nd pug MC I've participated in. (Not actively trying to raid, mostly helping guildies at the moment but I basically got begged to help tank this).

The raid lead originally wanted me to MT but I opted into OTing since I never really played with the majority of the raid. Didn't want to scare anyone before raid even started.

Boss update:
Tanked all trash with 0 issue. Ontop of that I even tanked a Molten Destroyer and Giant at the same time from full to dead. Twice.

I MTed Lucifron
OTed Mag with 2nd on threat
OTed Gehn
OTed Garrx had 3 adds on me by the end. Picked up garr and a add when the MTed died and held onto them both until the MT was druid rezzed. Then went back to add tanking.

Cleansed baron (we had like 3 paladins..so yeah I helped out).

OTed Shaz which was really fun. Was able to sudo taunt shaz each teleport and drag him to the MT.

OTed Sulfuron and then MTed him when MT died. I was able to pick him up easily and tanked him with the last add on me.

OTed dogs on golemag.

Domo and rag Saturday.


Was very fun and made me confident in my ability to MT MC completly.

   Holyfrog Pluuf beaty teebling Furious
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1 month ago (1.13.2)
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Caspus wrote:
1 month ago
Was very fun and made me confident in my ability to MT MC completly.
Well done , i never doubt about your skills tho ;)

My whole issue is Holyfrog being Preacher preaching false info about Protection Paladin and therefore he is being called an expert of it...

/Wisdom is Priority
/Activity is Skill
/Skill is Life
/Justice will prevails
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1 month ago (1.13.2)
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I have never claimed to be an expert at playing Protection Paladin. Yes I think I have a good understanding of the spec, but there is always more to learn. My only goal has always be to provide people with good information and a reasonable expectation of how the build works.

You know there was a time when I looked at your videos in awe, thinking you actually knew what you were talking about. But as I started playing Paladin and learned more about the spec it became glaringly obvious that there were huges flaws in the build and how it functions compared to Warriors and Druids, something I have both played and have extensive tanking experience on (Warrior to 5 bosses in Naxx, and Druidtank to full AQ40)

As I wanted to know the reasoning behind your way of thinking I realized quickly that any attempt to logically and reasonably talk to you about the downsides and flaws of the spec and how to overcome them was met time and time again with nothing but denial and hostility. This thread has gone on for 26 pages now, and reading through it, it should be obvious to anyone that you are not interested trying to objectively look at the spec.

And how could you be? You never tanked as a Protection Paladin at level 60 back in Vanilla, which is what your entire self appointed position as an authority on Protection Paladins is based on. Your experience is entirely from private servers, and not even the most recent servers where the spec functions somwhat close to Classic. You played on servers where you could stack judgements and the skills scaled with attackpower. While I have no doubt that you played in Vanilla, warcraftrealms prove as much, you were never 60 for long. You hit level 60 right before Burning Crusade, and could not possibly have had the time to aquire any sort of experience in raiding in any way shape or form or know a lot of how the game actually functions.

On private servers you also always had your own raiding guild that you built from the ground up, where you could pick and choose the classes you wanted in the raid, and you could make the entire guild work around your spec. You think Protection is the best tank spec, because you never actually played with any other maintanks and you have no basis to compare the spec to. Any reasonable person would then think to themselves that they may not have the full picture, and then be bit more humble in how you approach this.

What really is sad is that myself and others have tried in the past to be allies with you, and to work together with you in bringing the spec to light. But you have had no interest in this and have instead been nothing but antagonistic and openly hostile to anyone who disagree with your way of thinking.

You have also been asked multiple times to post the screenshots you claim you have proving you raided as Protection back in 2006 but you repeatedly refuse to do so. The truth here is simply that you have built your entire persona on a fabrication that you had the experience back then, and you have been unable to back that up at every request, and your personal attacks are simply a way to redirect the conversation away from that fact. Unless you actually post these screenshots you claim you have, it is an undisputable fact that you never raided at level 60 back in 2006.

I would therefore ask you to please end this personal Vendetta against me. It's getting really tedious at this point.

   Aoth jadelith Redstain
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1 month ago (1.13.2)
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I'd just end it at here and just post progress updates alongside me on your shenanigans. Pretty much all im doing now regarding here.

Outside that I just talk in DMs to avoid side tracking. Not even fun to shitpost anymore here hah.

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1 month ago (1.13.2)
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Holyfrog wrote:
1 month ago
And how could you be? You never tanked as a Protection Paladin at level 60 back in Vanilla, which is what your entire self appointed position as an authority on Protection Paladins is based on. Your experience is entirely from private servers, and not even the most recent servers where the spec functions somwhat close to Classic. You played on servers where you could stack judgements and the skills scaled with attackpower. While I have no doubt that you played in Vanilla, warcraftrealms prove as much, you were never 60 for long. You hit level 60 right before Burning Crusade, and could not possibly have had the time to aquire any sort of experience in raiding in any way shape or form or know a lot of how the game actually functions.
You see , none of the Raid Bosses i Maintanked in MC,ZG,AQ20 had such skill scaling with Attackpower and the Stacking Judges was in the same pservers where you and me did played.

And all the nonsense bullshits has been said there. Only because "Warcraftrealms told you".....

Really? I think you need to re investigate your IQ a bit for that....

Beside the fact that i gave screenshot from me playing WoW in 2005 and beside i provide you Video of me having the Game since 2005.... Sure Warcraftrealms told you i never been lvl 60 before TBC .... Like how ridiculous your claims are.. Even small kids aren't going to take you serious either.
Holyfrog wrote:
1 month ago
You think Protection is the best tank spec, because you never actually played with any other maintanks and you have no basis to compare the spec to.
You have really problems with a needing to constantly lying all the time..... Beside your ignorance of the Video from me using Warrior Tank for Hakkar as perfect comparison to compare.
Holyfrog wrote:
1 month ago
On private servers you also always had your own raiding guild that you built from the ground up, where you could pick and choose the classes you wanted in the raid, and you could make the entire guild work around your spec.
And that's what i do even in Classic , running and raid leading my own Guild.
The problem in your Video as you trying to claim yourself as Raid Leader , nobody can even hear you leading it, while on my Videos everyone can hear me leading the Raid.

What Min/Maxers do say : If you want to play Hybrid spec, make your own Guild. You right now have problems with me doing that , because it goes against your Min/Maxing agenda against Hybrids , where you blatantly lying and denigrate paladin providing noobish video of you playing it.
Holyfrog wrote:
1 month ago
You think Protection is the best tank spec,
I had to cut this , because it shows how much you are desparated lying so much , obviously.
Here is a quote from my words vs your words : viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1655&start=50
killerduki wrote:
5 months ago
I never said "Paladin is best Tank" , i always been telling that All Tanks are equal , but in diverse ways and do the same thing different way only.
You have problems so much with your own lies , you keep continuing to blatantly lie.
But yeah preachers do that, they repeat same lie 1000 times in order to become truth... That's exactly what you do all the time.
Holyfrog wrote:
1 month ago
What really is sad is that myself and others have tried in the past to be allies with you
You never ever been an ally with me , neither you tried it at all.
All you did was Rant on me at Paladin Theorycraft Discord together with all your allies like Skarm,Theloras etc, only because i refused to accept the lies you were trying to propose in there abusing my name to prove your false denigrating propaganda against Protection Paladins.
Holyfrog wrote:
1 month ago
You have also been asked multiple times to post the screenshots you claim you have proving you raided as Protection back in 2006 but you repeatedly refuse to do so. The truth here is simply that you have built your entire persona on a fabrication that you had the experience back then, and you have been unable to back that up at every request,
That's why you got even Video for that, but as always , it goes against your denigrating anti protection paladin propaganda and you decided to refuse it.

In b4 all your claims was :
Holyfrog wrote:
4 months ago
This is an absolutely riddiculous claim that again you didnt provide a source for. 3-4x the damage is an EXTREME difference, and there's no way in hell that private servers got this so wrong.
Everyone can see who the private servers experience had and who is the private server hero.
Today everyone are witness of how 100% correct i was about it.
But yeah "preaching preaching preaching preaching" and "lying lying lying" is all you do.

What's worse than that , is :

In all of the Videos you have recorded , everyone can see what kind of noob protection paladin you are.
But you act like "old wise word" : "that hole isn't hole".
You simply can't accept that you are noob and you repeatingly (lying and preaching) denigrate the whole Class Spec undervaluing it compare to how much better it is.
Because you can't live by the fact that you have 0 clues how to play it.
In theory you are super hero (mainly because you know how to write in fluent english and creative text) , in practice you are super noob.

/Wisdom is Priority
/Activity is Skill
/Skill is Life
/Justice will prevails
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1 month ago (1.13.2)
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killerduki wrote:
1 month ago
Holyfrog wrote:
1 month ago
And how could you be? You never tanked as a Protection Paladin at level 60 back in Vanilla, which is what your entire self appointed position as an authority on Protection Paladins is based on. Your experience is entirely from private servers, and not even the most recent servers where the spec functions somwhat close to Classic. You played on servers where you could stack judgements and the skills scaled with attackpower. While I have no doubt that you played in Vanilla, warcraftrealms prove as much, you were never 60 for long. You hit level 60 right before Burning Crusade, and could not possibly have had the time to aquire any sort of experience in raiding in any way shape or form or know a lot of how the game actually functions.
You see , none of the Raid Bosses i Maintanked in MC,ZG,AQ20 had such skill scaling with Attackpower and the Stacking Judges was in the same pservers where you and me did played.

And all the nonsense bullshits has been said there. Only because "Warcraftrealms told you".....

Really? I think you need to re investigate your IQ a bit for that....

Beside the fact that i gave screenshot from me playing WoW in 2005 and beside i provide you Video of me having the Game since 2005.... Sure Warcraftrealms told you i never been lvl 60 before TBC .... Like how ridiculous your claims are.. Even small kids aren't going to take you serious either.
Holyfrog wrote:
1 month ago
You think Protection is the best tank spec, because you never actually played with any other maintanks and you have no basis to compare the spec to.
You have really problems with a needing to constantly lying all the time..... Beside your ignorance of the Video from me using Warrior Tank for Hakkar as perfect comparison to compare.
Holyfrog wrote:
1 month ago
On private servers you also always had your own raiding guild that you built from the ground up, where you could pick and choose the classes you wanted in the raid, and you could make the entire guild work around your spec.
And that's what i do even in Classic , running and raid leading my own Guild.
The problem in your Video as you trying to claim yourself as Raid Leader , nobody can even hear you leading it, while on my Videos everyone can hear me leading the Raid.

What Min/Maxers do say : If you want to play Hybrid spec, make your own Guild. You right now have problems with me doing that , because it goes against your Min/Maxing agenda against Hybrids , where you blatantly lying and denigrate paladin providing noobish video of you playing it.
Holyfrog wrote:
1 month ago
You think Protection is the best tank spec,
I had to cut this , because it shows how much you are desparated lying so much , obviously.
Here is a quote from my words vs your words : viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1655&start=50
killerduki wrote:
5 months ago
I never said "Paladin is best Tank" , i always been telling that All Tanks are equal , but in diverse ways and do the same thing different way only.
You have problems so much with your own lies , you keep continuing to blatantly lie.
But yeah preachers do that, they repeat same lie 1000 times in order to become truth... That's exactly what you do all the time.
Holyfrog wrote:
1 month ago
What really is sad is that myself and others have tried in the past to be allies with you
You never ever been an ally with me , neither you tried it at all.
All you did was Rant on me at Paladin Theorycraft Discord together with all your allies like Skarm,Theloras etc, only because i refused to accept the lies you were trying to propose in there abusing my name to prove your false denigrating propaganda against Protection Paladins.
Holyfrog wrote:
1 month ago
You have also been asked multiple times to post the screenshots you claim you have proving you raided as Protection back in 2006 but you repeatedly refuse to do so. The truth here is simply that you have built your entire persona on a fabrication that you had the experience back then, and you have been unable to back that up at every request,
That's why you got even Video for that, but as always , it goes against your denigrating anti protection paladin propaganda and you decided to refuse it.

In b4 all your claims was :
Holyfrog wrote:
4 months ago
This is an absolutely riddiculous claim that again you didnt provide a source for. 3-4x the damage is an EXTREME difference, and there's no way in hell that private servers got this so wrong.
Everyone can see who the private servers experience had and who is the private server hero.
Today everyone are witness of how 100% correct i was about it.
But yeah "preaching preaching preaching preaching" and "lying lying lying" is all you do.

What's worse than that , is :

In all of the Videos you have recorded , everyone can see what kind of noob protection paladin you are.
But you act like "old wise word" : "that hole isn't hole".
You simply can't accept that you are noob and you repeatingly (lying and preaching) denigrate the whole Class Spec undervaluing it compare to how much better it is.
Because you can't live by the fact that you have 0 clues how to play it.
In theory you are super hero (mainly because you know how to write in fluent english and creative text) , in practice you are super noob.
Hey Duki, how's scarlet monastery going? You should update us when you actually raid in Classic! :lol:

   Redstain
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1 week ago
Never making a single investment again until I 100% know it pays off.
2000 IQ :wink:
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1 month ago (1.13.2)
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Another update. Today we tried to switch to the other Garr strategy in order to save some time. Previous weeks we have cleared everything before going back to Garr in order to not lose world buffs, but I was fairly confident we could do Garr with just offtanking the adds and killing the boss first.

Went very well. I was a bit concerned with how much damage I would take. But since we dont have a Warrior tank with Force Reactive disk yet, I gave it a shot. Requested lay on hands before the pull and used armor potions. Worked like a charm, and we got the boss down easily.

   Gallow
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1 month ago (1.13.2)
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Your enchanted thorium chest is cute, im working on mine. Gonna give the solo tank adds a shot myself next raid too :)

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1 month ago (1.13.2)
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Killerduki rants and personal attacks are an eyesore and a deterrent in the discussion at hand. We don't need you waving your alleged previous experiences from either 15 years ago or from private servers that had either a few or many differences in how class mechanics behaved in an attempt to diminish the current tests and practices people are doing right /now/. We don't need you dismissing people's hard evidence in the form of videos, testing, and ongoing progression while not providing solid, concrete Classic Wow evidence either.

This is Classic and only current experience should be discussed and tested as they are one kinds of information we as a paladin community can use. Since it sounds like you apparently have alot of p.server experience, if you wish to provide side-by-side comparisons of what you experience on private servers with how things actually behave in Classic, whether it be a nerf or buff, please do so. Seal of Righteousness mechanics and properties, tier set behaviors and interactions with certain talents, difference in boss mechanics from P.server to classic, or things of that nature.

But attacking people just trying to share information and be objective on the concept of Paladin tanking and their experiences really isn't helping things. Be constructive, not destructive.

That aside, I would like to thank posters like Holyfrog and Caspus for posting all their experiences as Protection and hope to continue reading more of them in the near future! I am currently still leveling with this spec as my goal, learning the way of the light after playing a MT warrior from classic up to Mists/Cataclysm. I already know that it's definitely not the same and most likely harder than warrior, but it's a class concept that I am fond of in not just this game.

   Holyfrog Stfuppercut teebling Aoth Caspus Pippina
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1 month ago (1.13.2)
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Update:

MTed Major Domo

Very easy, whenever he dropped aggro 1 to 2 Greater Blessings of kings taunts him back.

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1 month ago (1.13.2)
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Drunk tanking onyxia

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1 month ago (1.13.2)
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I would like to thank everyone in this thread for all the super useful information you put out.

I have played Vanilla back in the day, but never experienced endgame. When trying out all the different classes I found out the role I enjoy the most by far is tanking. I want to tank in dungeons and in raids all the way to Naxx.

From a gameplay perspective, which tanking style do you find more enjoyable or more engaging and why? Warrior or Paladin?
Maybe also highlighting the differences in tanking mechanics between the two.

Can someone enlighten me on Paladin Tanking in BWL, AQ40 and Naxx. Is there a place for a Paladin or will I be healing?

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1 month ago (1.13.2)
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capo wrote:
1 month ago
I would like to thank everyone in this thread for all the super useful information you put out.

I have played Vanilla back in the day, but never experienced endgame. When trying out all the different classes I found out the role I enjoy the most by far is tanking. I want to tank in dungeons and in raids all the way to Naxx.

From a gameplay perspective, which tanking style do you find more enjoyable or more engaging and why? Warrior or Paladin?
Maybe also highlighting the differences in tanking mechanics between the two.

Can someone enlighten me on Paladin Tanking in BWL, AQ40 and Naxx. Is there a place for a Paladin or will I be healing?
Not trying to sound harsh, but you do have 26 pages of detailed information in this very thread about all of your questions. :)

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1 month ago (1.13.2)
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Not really tbh. I think raiding discussion was mostly about earlier raids, please correct me if I am wrong.

Also I didn't find any comparison on the actual gameplay part between a warrior and paladin. Like how is one playstyle compared to the other and which one people enjoy more and why.

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1 month ago (1.13.2)
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@capo
I prefer Druid tanking over both. :D

   capo Stfuppercut
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1 month ago (1.13.2)
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beached wrote:
1 month ago
@capo
I prefer Druid tanking over both. :D
and I prefer Shaman tanking over both. :)

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1 month ago (1.13.2)
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So the way Reckoning works on Classic, do you think it is still useful for Paladin off-tanks and dungeon tanks? Talking strictly PvE here, not PvP. I'm also not interested in using start/stop attack macros.

What do you think about Anticipation and Deflection? Based on the other talents, as a Prot Paladin you WANT to get hit and crit right, so why would you ever take these two talents?

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1 month ago (1.13.2)
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Absolutely. For dungeons its an amazing tool if you keep your defense relatively low so you get consistently crit. Its going to hasten your attacks and provide you with larger returns on your mana regeneration.

For raids it really depends on your role. If you are primarily tanking something where you can use Greater Kings to hold aggro then you want as much defense as possible, and Anticipation is pretty ok for that since you afford the points when you dont have Reckoning.

I dont use Anticipation for raids myself and instead just go with Reckoning so its more comfy to do 5man and solo. Dont feel like the extra defense has been necessary as Im never really in danger of dying in the current content with just 380.

Oh, and I have to go brag a little bit to end my post. Today was a very lucky raid day :-)

   Caspus Stfuppercut Gallow
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1 month ago (1.13.2)
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In b4 someone tells you that Thunderfury is akkhsually terrible for pally tanking and you should use XYZ insted.

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1 month ago (1.13.2)
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Gallow wrote:
1 month ago
In b4 someone tells you that Thunderfury is akkhsually terrible for pally tanking and you should use XYZ insted.
Nah, tfury is really high up there for threat weapons.

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1 month ago (1.13.2)
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BIS wep for us. SoR doubles the proc rate.

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1 month ago (1.13.2)
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Holyfrog wrote:
1 month ago
Absolutely. For dungeons its an amazing tool if you keep your defense relatively low so you get consistently crit. Its going to hasten your attacks and provide you with larger returns on your mana regeneration.

For raids it really depends on your role. If you are primarily tanking something where you can use Greater Kings to hold aggro then you want as much defense as possible, and Anticipation is pretty ok for that since you afford the points when you dont have Reckoning.

I dont use Anticipation for raids myself and instead just go with Reckoning so its more comfy to do 5man and solo. Dont feel like the extra defense has been necessary as Im never really in danger of dying in the current content with just 380.
Can you elaborate as for why Reckoning is so good? The way it works is that it just resets your swing timer and let's you potentially hit faster right? How often do you actually get crit by mobs in dungeons and in raids as a 4th support tank?

What do you think about the Deflection talent? Good or not? My logic would be not to take it, as I want to get hit and not parry a lot?

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