On the shaman side of Tanking we're 5/10 Molten Core, so Prot paladin should definitely be high up there.

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

5 years ago

I'm not surprised that there havent been any examples of prot pallies in Classic during progressive raids. I feel like we will see the first ones start to pop up as offspec silly time within the next few weeks as the content is farmed more and more. I know our guild is now easily clearing MC with two raids weekly. We could definitely let a prot pally toss on a shield and act goofy for a few hours while we carried them through the content. We wouldnt... But we could.

I anticipate that we will start to see pally videos pop up over the next few weeks to month on teams that were easily clearing the content before they arrived. Useless if cant be done / isnt done, during progression.

However.... I am eagerly waiting to see what happens when @Holyfrog hits MC and hope to see him in a progressive raid team because this is probably one of the best representatives of this spec AND I would trust his assessment after he hits MC and has cleared the content. Not only does he have a strong grasp of the spec, but a realistic and objective view on its capabilities, so I am VERY interested in watching his progression. I know you arent the type to self-promote frog, so I'll do it for you =).

You remind me of the kid in highschool that constantly reminds everyone that you're taking advanced classes, except this time it's over a video game.

Caperfin wrote: ↑

5 years ago

On the shaman side of Tanking we're 5/10 Molten Core, so Prot paladin should definitely be high up there.

Any videos of that happening during progression or will we wait for a few more weeks until everything is on farm and your guild simply swaps you in when they've amassed enough gear to carry you?

Caperfin wrote: ↑

5 years ago

On the shaman side of Tanking we're 5/10 Molten Core, so Prot paladin should definitely be high up there.

Post some vids @Caperfin. Shaman tanking is so intriguing to me (for lower lvl dungeons more so, but if they can tank raid targets thats impressive).

Does damage from Retribution aura counts towards threat generation for the tank?

Targo wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Does damage from Retribution aura counts towards threat generation for the tank?

Yes,
Also, in regards to prot pally in general. I feel that the threat generation created by them overall is pretty big. Do we know of anyone crunching the numbers yet to see if they out threat warriors or druids? I may just be crazy, but I really feel that pally threat is off the charts.

My prot pally buddy has been using bubble as a taunt and it has been working spectacularly. It seems so obvious in hind sight, but I don't remember it being used in that way.

Also, seems that the judgements essentially equal a taunt. I have seen prot specs lose threat against mages, warriors, etc and a single judgement snaps it back almost all the time.

beached wrote: ↑

5 years ago

My prot pally buddy has been using bubble as a taunt

How does it work? Ithought with bubble ads would attack other players!

This thread just won't die, sweet jesus and all that is holy.

Will someone bury it?!

Forsakenone wrote: ↑

5 years ago

This thread just won't die, sweet jesus and all that is holy.

Will someone bury it?!

I’ll have you know that this thread carried barrens chat through a massive content drought and introduced us to a whole host of new posters like Duki and Frog. This thread marked the death of the old barrens chat and the beginning of the new generation with monarch, gnoll and duki. This thread is a very important part of barrens chat history.

stug wrote: ↑

5 years ago

How does it work? Ithought with bubble ads would attack other players!

So how I believe it is working:
When tanking, the tank is #1 on threat meters. When a dps hamers a target, or heals pulls threat for a mob off tank, they are now #1, and tank is most likely #2 on threat meter. When he bubbles the new #1, all mobs drop threat on target, and return to #2 (The new #1). So shadow priest pulls threat off pally, pally bubbles spriest, mob turns around and attacks tank. He usually sinks a judgement into that mob right away for good measure too.

beached wrote: ↑

5 years ago

When he bubbles the new #1, all mobs drop threat on target, and return to #2

Holy cow! Genius! Thanks

The threat on the BoP-ed target does not disappear - its only set to 0 temporarily while the BoP is active so unless you manage to out threat the DPS when the BoP is on the mobs will return to him that's why you need to follow up with the Judgment.

Best course is probably to assess who is generating too much threat in Your group and placing a Blessing of Salvation on them full time. Melee will probably hate you for that as you can give only one blessing so it's either BoS or BoM

Not putting BoSalv on trigger-happy DPS is like a warrior not using Sunder for threat, it simply doesn't make sense not to use a spell in your toolkit to manage threat when fights in Vanilla are balanced (get this) around threat...

Targo wrote: ↑

5 years ago

The threat on the BoP-ed target does not disappear - its only set to 0 temporarily while the BoP is active so unless you manage to out threat the DPS when the BoP is on the mobs will return to him that's why you need to follow up with the Judgment.

Best course is probably to assess who is generating too much threat in Your group and placing a Blessing of Salvation on them full time. Melee will probably hate you for that as you can give only one blessing so it's either BoS or BoM

To follow up on this, it could be possible to bubble that guy AND then follow up with BoS on him, then turning to the mob with a judgement and of course a couple of swings. The bubble would return the mob to you asap, the salve + judgement combo would allow you to turn the threat tables back to you before the bubble wears off.

I haven't measured anything myself, but do you know if you continue to generate threat while bubbled? Like, i know it is set to 0 for the duration, but if you keep DPS'ing are you building threat in the background, and once the bubble is done all that threat is applied? Or are you temp set to 0 threat, and you generate 0 more threat for the duration.

Either way, a bubble + judgement seems to be super reliable quasi taunt for him. I have seen it a handful of times, and I haven't seen a mob turn back to the DPS or heals once the bubble wears off.

@here, anyone got the time and data collection to crunch more numbers into this and figure out what exactly is going on with the threat here?

I am not sure how it looks in Classic at the moment, but normally.. When You BoP someone they have 0 threat and they generate 0 threat during when the BoP is active.

What I'm curious though is how much threat we are generating from mama restore on judgment of wisdom. Non-natural mana restores should generate AoE threat.
If it generates threat that's another source for us we can use and probably we should be keeping it up on a mob we are hitting.

Edit:
OK I crunched some numbers for the Seal of Wisdom judging and if it indeed adds threat it looks like this:
@60:
Base Mana: 1512
Mana restore: 2% of base per hit

Threat:
Signle Target: 30 /hit
Multi target: 15 - 30/hit for each mob in combat (depends on the amount of mobs, minimum is 15)

Not much but well still something we can get for free if we cycle our judgments and keep up the debuff on the mob.


To put matters into a perspective for a single mob scenario this level of threat generation should be more effective then a Thorium Shield spike enchant to the shield nice!

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

5 years ago

I'm not surprised that there havent been any examples of prot pallies in Classic during progressive raids. I feel like we will see the first ones start to pop up as offspec silly time within the next few weeks as the content is farmed more and more. I know our guild is now easily clearing MC with two raids weekly. We could definitely let a prot pally toss on a shield and act goofy for a few hours while we carried them through the content. We wouldnt... But we could.

I anticipate that we will start to see pally videos pop up over the next few weeks to month on teams that were easily clearing the content before they arrived. Useless if cant be done / isnt done, during progression.

However.... I am eagerly waiting to see what happens when @Holyfrog hits MC and hope to see him in a progressive raid team because this is probably one of the best representatives of this spec AND I would trust his assessment after he hits MC and has cleared the content. Not only does he have a strong grasp of the spec, but a realistic and objective view on its capabilities, so I am VERY interested in watching his progression. I know you arent the type to self-promote frog, so I'll do it for you =).

Randomly decided to check this forum for the first time since Classic released, and what do I see. Thanks for promoting me I suppose haha. I cant say I have had time to do much content so far. I was just recording every dungeon I did during leveling and uploaded the raw videos with some music. People seem to like it however.

As for Raid Content, dont expect to see a lot in the near future. I am currently running and raidleading my own MC pug so I can get Bindings, but I am currently healing as I want the pug to go smooth and efficient, and I dont really want to burde the pug by trying to tank as Protection. If I did we could not be able to hold the kind of pace I want the pug to hold. Our last raid cleared in under two hours which I feel is pretty solid for a pug.

Eventually I want to give tanking a shot, but not until the raid has better gear and we can offset some of the issues with the spec. The lack of taunt is a huge for MC, especially when we aim at doing quick pulls in the way that we currently are. We will just see what the future hold. I am collecting tank gear though, and I have been recording 5 man footage that I eventually want to put commentary on to talk about the spec itself and how I approach tanking in general. Just havent had the time to edit and do anything with the footage so far.

We are still figuring out the specifics on Paladin tanking in Classic as well. A lot is different than Private servers, and a lot is the same. I dont really want to be making videos and give advice until I know exactly how it works myself. As an example, it was recently figured out that Righteous Fury improve the threat from all holy school effects instead of just holy attacks like the tooltips says. If this turns out to be the intended behaviour, and we currently believe it might be, it will open up for some interesting strategies such as casting Greater Blessing of Kings on the raid for threat and have the threat generation multiplied by the number of players hit similar to how Battle Shout functions, as well as the blessing getting the threat multiplier from Righteous Fury.

This has the potential to be producing quite significant threat, but we have to see how it works out in an actual raid and if the behaviour is even intended. Some of the classic spell behaviour has already been nerfed/fixed. An example of this, up until a few days ago, Blessing of Sacrifice would transfer crits through the blessing which mean that if you cast the Sacrifice on say a Druid tank, you would gain Reckoning stacks every time the Druid would get crit which increased your own threat output.
This turned out to not be the intended function of the blessing, and It got fixed yesterday.

Feel free to follow my youtube channel and look out for any future videos that I will be posting on Protection. I just got done with all my prebis farming (mostly) and I should have more time to produce actual content from now on. Just want to make sure my information is accurate and good before I make any definitive statements in a video, as god forbid there's enough misinformation out there already.

-Holyfrog

Holyfrog wrote: ↑

5 years ago

I am currently running and raidleading my own MC pug so I can get Bindings, but I am currently healing as I want the pug to go smooth and efficient, and I dont really want to burden the pug by trying to tank as Protection.

Eventually I want to give tanking a shot, but not until the raid has better gear and we can offset some of the issues with the spec.

As usual Frog, your assessment and honesty is appreciated. A true voice for prot paladins. I wish you the best on bindings!

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

5 years ago

However.... I am eagerly waiting to see what happens when @Holyfrog hits MC and hope to see him in a progressive raid team because this is probably one of the best representatives of this spec AND I would trust his assessment after he hits MC and has cleared the content.

You mean this :

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

5 years ago

As usual Frog, your assessment and honesty is appreciated. A true voice for prot paladins. I wish you the best on bindings!

Holyfrog wrote: ↑

5 years ago

We are still figuring out the specifics on Paladin tanking in Classic as well. A lot is different than Private servers, and a lot is the same. I dont really want to be making videos and give advice until I know exactly how it works myself.

That's interesting to read, in b4 you were an expert of Classic Paladin... Telling me how i am wrong and how i was wrong.

Reminder of your own words:

Holyfrog wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Who told you the general consensus is that Paladins do good threat? You are being just as dishonest as Duki. You flip it around and pretend as if I am the one that has to provide evidence when we have 15 years of raidlogs to look back on where not a single person can demonstrate Paladins produce the level of threat a Warrior can do

Holyfrog wrote: ↑

5 years ago

I suspect you simply never at any point played with good players. Because you made Protection Paladin work, you now think the spec is super good, but in reality you have never been around any Warrior tank who actually knew what they were doing, and your perspective is highly skewed because of it. Too bad you dont have the capacity to even consider that you might be wrong, about anything.

Holyfrog wrote: ↑

5 years ago

there's no way in hell that private servers got this so wrong.

And at the end , you ending up as this :

Holyfrog wrote: ↑

5 years ago

This has the potential to be producing quite significant threat,

In few days i am coming back in Game finally! After long work and busy irl stuffs. Time to rock and i am so impressed that i seen your Videos , especially how you (at begin) do your own (jow/sor for mobs) , but ending up on mine (jow/sow for mobs) ways in 5 mans as Tank.

Keep going .... Excited to see and then you will get impressed on my Videos that are going to pop up in near future.

Reminder :

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

My plan is to make examples of all Dungeons , but i am so busy until october so , it will take some time ;)

Holyfrog wrote: ↑

5 years ago

as god forbid there's enough misinformation out there already.

Amen....

Targo wrote: ↑

5 years ago

What I'm curious though is how much threat we are generating from mama restore on judgment of wisdom. Non-natural mana restores should generate AoE threat.
If it generates threat that's another source for us we can use and probably we should be keeping it up on a mob we are hitting.

Edit:
OK I crunched some numbers for the Seal of Wisdom judging and if it indeed adds threat it looks like this:
@60:
Base Mana: 1512
Mana restore: 2% of base per hit

Seal of Wisdom doesn't restore 2% of base per hit.

Also 0.5 threat per 1 mana it is.

This didn't work on private servers, in Classic it does work properly.

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Holyfrog wrote: ↑

5 years ago

I am currently running and raidleading my own MC pug so I can get Bindings, but I am currently healing as I want the pug to go smooth and efficient, and I dont really want to burden the pug by trying to tank as Protection.

Eventually I want to give tanking a shot, but not until the raid has better gear and we can offset some of the issues with the spec.

As usual Frog, your assessment and honesty is appreciated. A true voice for prot paladins. I wish you the best on bindings!

Thank you. I made my first attempt at a different kind of video today actually. It's not really a guide on Protection, but I did try to lay out my thought process while tanking a dungeon as I did it. Let me know what you think.

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

In few days i am coming back in Game finally! After long work and busy irl stuffs. Time to rock and i am so impressed that i seen your Videos , especially how you (at begin) do your own (jow/sor for mobs) , but ending up on mine (jow/sow for mobs) ways in 5 mans as Tank.

The thing is, the mana return from SoR and JoW is entirely static and does not scale in any way. We are currently at a point in the game where people dont really do a lot of damage, and the passive threat from Holy Shield and Retribution Aura is enough to hold aggro most of the time. I already notice the SoW threat isnt doing the job anymore when grouped with players wearing their prebis gear, and I have to switch over to the SoR playstyle that I used on private servers.

I also assume when you say my videos, that you are referring to the ones I did during leveling. Notice that we are doing pretty big pulls. Ofcourse I will use Seal of Wisdom when we do an AoE pull with 10+ mobs, because getting slightly more threat on one of these targets wont make any difference. But that is exactly the same thing as I have been doing on private servers as well, which you can see if you look up my Stratholme video from Northdale on my channel.

So I have no copied your playstyle. SoW was, and always will be the go-to seal for very large pulls, and it will only work as a single target threat seal on very low gear levels in Classic. With better gear you will have to switch to SoR if you want to produce enough threat to hold aggro on small groups or bosses.

Holyfrog wrote: ↑

5 years ago

and it will only work as a single target threat seal on very low gear levels in Classic.

And where did i wrote anything about using SoW for Single Target?!

Holyfrog wrote: ↑

5 years ago

I also assume when you say my videos, that you are referring to the ones I did during leveling. Notice that we are doing pretty big pulls. Ofcourse I will use Seal of Wisdom when we do an AoE pull with 10+ mobs, because getting slightly more threat on one of these targets wont make any difference. But that is exactly the same thing as I have been doing on private servers as well, which you can see if you look up my Stratholme video from Northdale on my channel.

You mean this :

Northdale video of you - 13:25



Versus

Classic video of you - 21:40




Now we can see the difference between you on the Pserver priority using (most of the time) was SoR , where on Classic you were priority using (most of the time) was SoW , where you did partially SoR on certain spots only.

And all that is not even on 10+ mobs where you were priority SoW , but on 3+ mobs.

Because the Northdale video is on Naxx patch with DPS decked out in raid epics and the Classic video has the group wearing half greens. Did you even read my previous post?

On the Northdale video I very much do use SoW on the non elite undead packs, with occasional SoR to fish for Ironfoe procs on targets judged by JoW, because on Private servers SoR actually proc JoW which isnt happening on Classic. It's apples and oranges.

Holyfrog wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Because the Northdale video is on Naxx patch with DPS decked out in raid epics and the Classic video has the group wearing half greens. Did you even read my previous post?

On the Northdale video I very much do use SoW on the non elite undead packs, with occasional SoR to fish for Ironfoe procs on targets judged by JoW, because on Private servers SoR actually proc JoW which isnt happening on Classic. It's apples and oranges.

17:54 = you still do SoW/JoW on DPS decked out in raid epics even there in Northdale , so the point of "DPS Gear" makes difference regarding 3+ mobs flush inside toilet.

Your statement regarding this has no sense at all.

Yes on Northdale jow did trigger 2x thanks to SoR and in Classic doesn't , but didn't do there the 0.5 threat per 1 mana by it, which in Classic it does!

Apples were still Oranges at one point.