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2 months ago (1.13.2)
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Stfuppercut wrote:
2 months ago
It does, you just arent aware. That guy that hit you hard in PvP with gear he farmed using layering? It matters. That guy that catches or escapes you with his epic mount due to layer abuse? It matters. The server economy that impacts every single one of your sales, matters. You're right, it doesnt get noticed by casuals, but that doesnt mean that it isnt there.
Like I said, I'm lvl 29 and 28 on my characters. I have not been smacked by pvpers, I've been buying and selling low lvl gear on auction like normal, and I have certainly never seen an epic mount in the wild, or people escaping via layering. Again, like I said, to the casual player it's just not a real impact. It's an impact for a subset of the community which raced to 60 and continues to push the envelope. I can tell you that this is also the experience of the 5 workmates who are playing classic and also some of my RL friends in my guild. Slow leveling casual players really aren't seeing the impact at lower levels. This will likely change when we get to 50-60 and are forced to interact with the subset in question.

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2 months ago (1.13.2)
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Pippina wrote:
2 months ago
To be fair I think he's talking about the intent of the system. Layering only exists as a form of population capacity management. Blizz didn't intend for us to be able to control what layers we're on. We obviously do because the whole system of layering is flawed and we have to have this control in order for the system to even work. But strictly speaking using the layering system for anything is abuse. The ability to go to another copy of the server on demand was not the intent behind the system so intentionally swapping layers for any reason other to play with a friend who is on another layer is technically abuse of the system. We're just talking about differing degrees of abuse. You could abuse layering if you don't like the weather in the zone, or you could use it to farm the final boss in a dungeon 5 times in a row. Different levels of abuse; but both are technically abuses of the system.
I think this is a fairly reasonable assessment of layering, it's intent, and the intentional abuse of the system. The levels of abuse vary dramatically, but the intent to abuse it is the players choice and their risk.

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2 months ago (1.13.2)
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Caperfin wrote:
2 months ago
The people who REALLY abused it and planned it properly though made sure to leave no traces behind. (AH/Trade/Delete toon)

Wouldn't be surprised if Blizz banned a bunch of empty throwaway accounts.
I can assure you that deleting a toon doesn't delete it from their database, that you don't see the character doesn't mean the data isn't there. If you did something in the game, there is a log for it.


But yeah, it seems pretty clear by now that the only people who are going to get banned are those who abused layering in lvl 60 dungeons and raids. People farming Gnomeregan or resources on the open are not gonna get banned if no one has been banned by now.

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2 months ago (1.13.2)
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I'm just pretty amazed by the fact that most of the people abusing it are just ruining the game for themselves in the first place... I mean, we always say that the purpose of this game is the journey yadda yadda, and by cheating in this way you are skipping a big portion of it. I understand that Blizzard could have developed the system better (as a software developer, a bug like the dungeon one is pretty huge to not have been spotted during QA, moreover because it involves layering, a feature I hope they tested throughly).

This being said I'm very happy about the ban wave, and I hope it will also descourage future behaviors like these ones. Community is a pillar of this game, and having a portion of players (especially all those high level guild) proceeding along a dark path like this one is very scary: someone suggested an in-game prison for players caught cheating, where they have to spend in game time doing nothing. It would be great to just pass by and /spit on them :D

Ish-ne-alo por-ah (May the days ahead be guided by the elders of long ago)


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2 months ago (1.13.2)
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daisyKutter wrote:
2 months ago
But yeah, it seems pretty clear by now that the only people who are going to get banned are those who abused layering in lvl 60 dungeons and raids. People farming Gnomeregan or resources on the open are not gonna get banned if no one has been banned by now.
Yep. Only the WORST case scenarios for farming dungeons at max level. The guys who did this hundreds of times. I can speak for a lot of guys I know on my server who participated and none have been banned. Most of them used this to get their HoJ farming done quickly or for a few minor pieces. Dont get me wrong, this saved some of them dozens of hours of farming, but only the guys who were stacking bricks of cash got punished.

Layering is fine by the way, totally fine.

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2 months ago (1.13.2)
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Selexin wrote:
2 months ago
Like I said, I'm lvl 29 and 28 on my characters. I have not been smacked by pvpers, I've been buying and selling low lvl gear on auction like normal, and I have certainly never seen an epic mount in the wild, or people escaping via layering. Again, like I said, to the casual player it's just not a real impact. It's an impact for a subset of the community which raced to 60 and continues to push the envelope. I can tell you that this is also the experience of the 5 workmates who are playing classic and also some of my RL friends in my guild. Slow leveling casual players really aren't seeing the impact at lower levels. This will likely change when we get to 50-60 and are forced to interact with the subset in question.
I like this man, aka Selexin! :mrgreen:
I am in the same boat with you!
I am also level 28 but only 1 character and absolutely loving my experience.

I clearly done layer hoping per say when i am questing and my friend logs on and adds me to his group and I accept lol
So working as intended.
I know I will see these exploiters more when I hit 60...not gonna partake in the shenanigans and hope this doesnt screw up my experience when I do hit 60

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2 months ago (1.13.2)
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Nyxt wrote:
2 months ago
not gonna partake in the shenanigans and hope this doesnt screw up my experience when I do hit 60
I know it will take me a while to hit 60 on my two characters, who knows maybe layering wont exist when I hit 60? Time will reveal all.

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2 months ago (1.13.2)
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A guildie just brought this to my attention, posted a day ago by Blizzard Community Manager Lore:
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t ... /301488/82

 Blizzard Entertainment
Soooooo since I’m seeing a lot of confusion (here and elsewhere), here’s some insight into how we draw the line between what makes something a punishable exploit versus a “happy little accident.”

The key factor here is intent. Did the player do something with the specific intention of causing a glitch to occur, and did they do it order to exploit said glitch for their own benefit?

This recent glitch makes a pretty clean example. The players who were abusing it had to do some Very Weird Stuff to cause it to occur, and then did so repeatedly. No reasonable person would expect that this behavior was intended, and the players involved had to go out of their way to cause it. It’s obviously unintended, it’s obviously a glitch, and the people who abused it were obviously exploiting said glitch for their own benefit. That’s pretty open and shut.

Someone mentioned Esfand’s random MC reset in this thread, which is a pretty clean example of the other end of the spectrum. In that case, they just turned up to raid and the instance had been reset. They didn’t do anything intentional to cause it or go looking for reproduction steps so they could abuse it - in fact, they reported it to us and didn’t continue until they got confirmation that it was out of their control (and that we wouldn’t consider it an exploit if they cleared).

Side note for the curious: that was a completely separate bug that has existed since 2004, and actually happened several times back then, it just wasn’t being broadcast to thousands of viewers at the time.

Obviously, neither situation is ideal - we try our best to provide a fair playing field for everyone - but there’s a pretty massive difference between “the instance is reset and we don’t know why” and “if we do this One Weird Trick we can infinitely farm this dungeon boss.” That’s the key factor that turns something from an accident into an exploit.

This ended up being longer than I expected so I’ll wrap it up with one last caveat: there is a lot of context and nuance that goes into these situations, and they’re not usually as cut and dry as these two examples. We end up making a lot of judgement calls based on the specifics of each exploit as well as their overall impact on the game (the phrase “clever use of game mechanics” originally came from one such convoluted situation). These two cases just happen to be pretty obvious.

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2 months ago (1.13.2)
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Instinctz wrote:
2 months ago
Black Monarch wrote:
2 months ago
Everyone who willingly exploited this system should be permabanned. The ONLY purpose of layering was to reduce zone overcrowding in the low-level zones. Players were never supposed to have control over any aspect of the layering system or how it affected them - not when they got moved to a new layer, not which layer they got moved to, nothing.
You have no clue what you are talking about.
You can't read. I know exactly what I'm talking about. 90% of your post was telling me shit I already know and the other 10% was attacking strawman arguments.

Learn to read.

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2 months ago (1.13.2)
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So do we know for sure anybody has actually been banned for this? I mean I see people talking about 'people getting banned for a month!' and 'I heard somebody got a year!' and I've seen this repeated all over the place making it seem like many people have been banned. But every time I try to find out the source, they all go back to the same couple of questionable screenshots that I saw on Reddit, and neither of them seemed to be proven or even definitively tied back to abusing layers in dungeons and raids. I mean I see it all the time in guild chat, I see it in world chat, I see it on forums... People are getting banned for a month! And some are getting banned for a year! But it all leads back to the same two screenshots I saw on Reddit.

I know a large handful of people who abused this in dungeons and they did it a lot. None of them have been banned. Nobody else seems to personally know anybody who has been banned.

Has anybody really even been banned or are we all circle jerking around a couple of unproven screenshots from Reddit?

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2 months ago (1.13.2)
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Pippina wrote:
2 months ago
are we all circle jerking around a couple of unproven screenshots from Reddit?
Basically, yes.

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2 months ago (1.13.2)
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I lead a guild with 400 members. 2 raid teams. And am close to quite a few other GM's on my server. Thus far, between all of the guilds I have spoken with collectively, I have heard of one guy being banned thus far in Classic, for purchasing gold. He was in my guild. No one that I have heard of has been banned for layering abuse.

I know MANY people who abused layering (40+ people - to varying degrees), specifically in dungeons, and none of them have received any punishment.

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2 months ago (1.13.2)
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Stfuppercut wrote:
2 months ago
I know MANY people who abused layering (40+ people - to varying degrees), specifically in dungeons, and none of them have received any punishment.
They will take action ASAP, a few bans have been handed out already as you can see in the screenshot below.
SpoilerShow


They also have an official response about "taking appropriate punitive measures" against the abusers, so you can rest assured that everyone will get their fair share of justice.

Official response:
SpoilerShow

Good riddance.

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2 months ago (1.13.2)
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I assume they will take action to some extent at least, it plays against them not punishing those who abused the system; and we know they clearly know who abused. Maybe it will take more time or they will simply take action against those explicitly broke or tried to broke the server balance. Time will tell

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2 months ago (1.13.2)
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I am pretty sure once the majority of bans are rolling out we will notice it by QQ posts popping up.

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2 months ago (1.13.2)
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I'm rather curious if only those that were open about it are banned or if they have the tools to find and ban every single person that exploited it. And they better be damn sure, since false negatives are not what they want.

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2 months ago (1.13.2)
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I doubt anyone who is banned (or at least not a lot of people) is gonna be much open about it. Do they have the tools? Of course, they have been logging every little action a user does since before TBC, since 2007 they fingerprint the screenshots and I'm pretty sure (wild guess) they keep logs of voice conversations.

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2 months ago (1.13.2)
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Every action Blizz takes is based on logs

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2 months ago (1.13.2)
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daisyKutter wrote:
2 months ago
since 2007 they fingerprint the screenshots
Are you referring to the old steganography hoax? As someone who works in signal-processing, I can say with a fairly high degree of confidence that those claims were mathematically impossible.

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2 months ago (1.13.2)
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Black Monarch wrote:
2 months ago
Are you referring to the old steganography hoax? As someone who works in signal-processing, I can say with a fairly high degree of confidence that those claims were mathematically impossible.
Yes and then I will shut my mouth. Thanks for the correction!

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2 months ago (1.13.2)
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Pippina wrote:
2 months ago
So do we know for sure anybody has actually been banned for this? I mean I see people talking about 'people getting banned for a month!' and 'I heard somebody got a year!' and I've seen this repeated all over the place making it seem like many people have been banned. But every time I try to find out the source, they all go back to the same couple of questionable screenshots that I saw on Reddit, and neither of them seemed to be proven or even definitively tied back to abusing layers in dungeons and raids. I mean I see it all the time in guild chat, I see it in world chat, I see it on forums... People are getting banned for a month! And some are getting banned for a year! But it all leads back to the same two screenshots I saw on Reddit.

Has anybody really even been banned or are we all circle jerking around a couple of unproven screenshots from Reddit?
Foohy wrote:
2 months ago
They will take action ASAP, a few bans have been handed out already as you can see in the screenshot below.
SpoilerShow
I mean this is exactly what I was talking about. Lo and behold, the same screenshot from reddit. 50 copies of the same vague screenshot of an email doesn't equate to 50 pieces of evidence.

I know a lot of people who abused layering in instances, and nobody has been banned. And I haven't even heard of somebody who knows somebody getting banned, or somebody who knows somebody who knows somebody who has been banned. I haven't heard of a single person on my entire server getting banned for this. All we have is a vague screenshot from reddit, which for all I know was faked or doctored or unrelated.

I don't think anybody has been banned for this. I don't think anybody lost items for this. I think Blizzard patched it out, said 'don't do this', and then the community assumed bans were going out. A single unsubstantiated screenshot of an email later, everybody thinks people are getting banned left and right for abuse. I don't think there is a single credible report of a single person getting banned for abusing layering yet. If people were really getting banned, we'd be hearing from them by now. Somebody would have spoken out. But so far- nothing. We should have seen substantiated reports from people who got put away by now if bans were actually happening.

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2 months ago (1.13.2)
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Pippina wrote:
2 months ago
I don't think anybody has been banned for this. I don't think anybody lost items for this. I think Blizzard patched it out, said 'don't do this', and then the community assumed bans were going out.
The community wants to feel that justice has been served. It hasnt. If you havent abused layering, you are at a disadvantage overall.
Pippina wrote:
2 months ago
We should have seen substantiated reports from people who got put away by now if bans were actually happening.
Pretty much. This isnt some niche thing that a small group of guys were doing... This was common place for the early 60's.

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1 week ago
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2 months ago (1.13.2)
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Stfuppercut wrote:
2 months ago
If you havent abused layering, you are at a disadvantage overall.
What can I do to regain my advantage! I feel so dis-empowered, should I stop playing?! Hahahaha.

Yes, if you are trying to be in the top echelon of your server and you haven't abused layering, you are going to be at a disadvantage. Otherwise, carry on playing and enjoying the game, this layering bullshit can take a back seat to your enjoyment.

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2 months ago (1.13.2)
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Selexin wrote:
2 months ago
What can I do to regain my advantage! I feel so dis-empowered, should I stop playing?! Hahahaha.
No... that sounds a bit extreme. Just play and be casual silly!
Selexin wrote:
2 months ago
Yes, if you are trying to be in the top echelon of your server and you haven't abused layering, you are going to be at a disadvantage. Otherwise, carry on playing and enjoying the game, this layering bullshit can take a back seat to your enjoyment.
Sure. But that goes without saying. For the rest of us, we're going to talk about layering in the thread about layering.

"I dont care about layering im casual and it doesnt bother me anyway!!! WHO CARES?!?!"
Cool. We care.

g0bledyg00k wrote:
1 week ago
Never making a single investment again until I 100% know it pays off.
2000 IQ :wink:
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2 months ago (1.13.2)
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@Stfuppercut you ok bro? We're still talking about layering. Your view on the game and the necessity of layer abuse just seems very pessimistic and a generally negative way to approach a game we've been waiting 13 years for.

You're so caught up in layer abuse that it's the focus point of all your posts (not just layering threads). Layering effects every part of your game experience, because that's exactly what you want. You yearn for layering and the abuse. It's what drives you to post here, it's what makes you.... You. Despite all of your posts pre and post launch going against layering, your the first person to abuse and ultimately enjoy the result of it. You don't want layering gone, because you are willing to abuse it to gain your advantage. Layering is the best thing that's ever happened to you. Ironic really.

Edit: You love layering abuse, I love dramatic posts - it's how we keep ourselves entertained on the forums. Everyone has their kink right?

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