Source

Totally justified in my opinion.

In my mind.

Forfeiture of any gains should be automatic no matter how long.

I really hope it was worth it for all those who found it justified to abuse layering because they didn't agree with the system, or were simply willing to use any exploit available to get an early advantage.

This will probably kill off a lot of those high end guilds that were actively abusing the system.

Good decision by blizzard, interested to see the full coverage of the bans. Players were blatant and open about their exploitation, e.g. Skarm.

You build a system that was designed to be abused and then ban people for abusing it? Meh. I'll keep you boys posted. I may be rerolling shortly, but if my guess is right, Blizz will only issue bans to the biggest offenders or those who left evidence of them committing the act. We'll see how good their system is at tracking your boss kills etc.

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

5 years ago

You build a system that was designed to be abused and then ban people for abusing it? Meh. I'll keep you boys posted. I may be rerolling shortly, but if my guess is right, Blizz will only issue bans to the biggest offenders or those who left evidence of them committing the act. We'll see how good their system is at tracking your boss kills etc.

No system in this world, related to anything, is immune to exploitation and abuse. Abuse literally means misuse. I can abuse a pen, the health care system, a game etc.

I hope the bans will be strong. Out of respect for us honest farming folk.

Vlostek wrote: ↑

5 years ago

No system in this world, related to anything, is immune to exploitation and abuse. Abuse literally means misuse. I can abuse a pen, the health care system, a game etc.

I hope the bans will be strong. Out of respect for us honest farming folk.

But this abuse was predictable. As was said by the community. There were other superior systems available. The abuse that is occurring now, is the same abuse that was present during the beta and stress tests. Blizzard hotfixes are months and months behind the initial instances of abuse.

Blizz during layering announcement: This is Layering
Community in response: We will abuse layering.
Community on stress tests and beta: abuses layering and posts it to Blizz
Blizz in response to beta: its not as bad as people say
Community during initial Classic launch: we're still doin it, and its REALLY GOOD
Blizz in response: we assure you its not that bad
Blizz the next day: patches layering.
Community: but we can still abuse layering...

Its just... A really really delayed response to the predictable abuse that is the result of a system that is inherently bad.

It would be nice longer than a month, but a month for the people who committed the exploit is almost the same than a larger period for them, but hey if they catch them all and remove their gold and items that's fine. A plus would be removing the xp from those who abused layering for leveling.

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Vlostek wrote: ↑

5 years ago

No system in this world, related to anything, is immune to exploitation and abuse. Abuse literally means misuse. I can abuse a pen, the health care system, a game etc.

I hope the bans will be strong. Out of respect for us honest farming folk.

But this abuse was predictable. As was said by the community. There were other superior systems available. The abuse that is occurring now, is the same abuse that was present during the beta and stress tests. Blizzard hotfixes are months and months behind the initial instances of abuse.

You are entitled to your own opinion, but i fully disagree that the people abusing are justified; especially doing it so brazenly.
Predictable abuse is not justifiable abuse.
Speeding is a predictable abuse. Try justifying it that way to a cop, see how far it gets you.

I just really hope they get them all and not a small portion of the exploiters.

I am very worried that being a casual player that is currently only level 32 is now going to be really really far behind everyone and the end game advantage that a lot of players have now is going to be silly.

There is no way the economy can come back from this, surely?

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Vlostek wrote: ↑

5 years ago

No system in this world, related to anything, is immune to exploitation and abuse. Abuse literally means misuse. I can abuse a pen, the health care system, a game etc.

I hope the bans will be strong. Out of respect for us honest farming folk.

But this abuse was predictable. As was said by the community. There were other superior systems available. The abuse that is occurring now, is the same abuse that was present during the beta and stress tests. Blizzard hotfixes are months and months behind the initial instances of abuse.

Blizz during layering announcement: This is Layering
Community in response: We will abuse layering.
Community on stress tests and beta: abuses layering and posts it to Blizz
Blizz in response to beta: its not as bad as people say
Community during initial Classic launch: we're still doin it, and its REALLY GOOD
Blizz in response: we assure you its not that bad
Blizz the next day: patches layering.
Community: but we can still abuse layering...

Its just... A really really delayed response to the predictable abuse that is the result of a system that is inherently bad.

What a ridiculous argument. Locks are pickable in real life and people can say "your locks are pickable, we will break in" - but if you break in its still illegal. You intentionally abused a system, bragged about it, and were proud of it. If a thief does the same and is caught they are jailed. Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you should just to prove a point.

What else could you apply this logic to? If you're punished, it's deserved. You cannot blame blizzard for any of this, your actions were intentional and malicious. If you take it on the chin and reroll and don't complain, very good. It doesn't undo your actions, but at least you won't be blaming someone else for your own actions.

Selexin wrote: ↑

5 years ago

What else could you apply this logic to? If you're punished, it's deserved. You cannot blame blizzard for any of this, your actions were intentional and malicious. If you take it on the chin and reroll and don't complain, very good. It doesn't undo your actions, but at least you won't be blaming someone else for your own actions.

This is the issue... This is a perspective based argument. What is malicious? At what point should you not violate layering? Is it okay to get an invite to find a rare spawn or an escort? What about to avoid a gank? How about to avoid being camped after the gank? Why not do it to farm some herbs...? How about making thousands of gold in dungeons... How about for a potential raid drop?

Everyone will have their limit, but the system itself is broken. Most players have used layering to gain an advantage at one point or another, or at the very least a significant portion of the userbase has... At what point does this behavior become "malicious". If you ask 10 people, you will get 10 different responses. I treat layering just as I treat gear optimization or any other facet of the game. It exists within the world and I manipulate as best as I can to gain an advantage in a competitive environment. Blizz designed layering, not me. The onus is NOT on the playerbase to self-regulate and police themselves. If a system is put in a game and you can manipulate that system within the game, you should manipulate it. Eventually, if it truly is an exploit, it will be fixed. Layering in its current state, has not been removed, it has simply been moderated. We now know that abusing layering within the confines of a dungeon is considered an exploit, which was not outlined before the recent bans. HOWEVER, all of the other instances of layer abuse are A-OKAY. Therefore, I will continue to abuse layering. My abuse of layering to farm a lot of devilsaur leather was okay. My abuse of the system to get rare spawns and escort quests was okay. My abuse to avoid ganks was okay... There is no consistency in their moderation or implementation of layering. The people who are abusing the system are at an advantage. A minority will be punished, the rest will profit. Everyone who avoided abusing layering, simply stunted their own growth within the game.

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

5 years ago

The onus is NOT on the playerbase to self-regulate and police themselves. If a system is put in a game and you can manipulate that system within the game, you should manipulate it.

You have an extremely warped sense of reality. Good luck to you in your endeavours.

Nobody thinks of themself as the bad guy. Yet bad guys exist. If these posts are necessary to justify your behaviour to yourself, keep it up. You wont convince anyone else though.

1 month + item wipe sounds good for the category of players using the exploit to get a gear advantage for their own characters.
But I wouldn't be sad about perma bans for the players who pushed the whole thing too far...bunkering mats, gold, AH spam and so on.

Samaraner wrote: ↑

5 years ago

If these posts are necessary to justify your behaviour to yourself, keep it up. You wont convince anyone else though.

I think you hit the nail on the head here.

Biomasse wrote: ↑

5 years ago

1 month + item wipe sounds good for the category of players using the exploit to get a gear advantage for their own characters.
But I wouldn't be sad about perma bans for the players who pushed the whole thing too far...bunkering mats, gold, AH spam and so on.

Would also like to see perma bans if people have stockpilled recipes and mats due to it..

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

5 years ago

This is the issue... This is a perspective based argument. What is malicious? At what point should you not violate layering? Is it okay to get an invite to find a rare spawn or an escort? What about to avoid a gank? How about to avoid being camped after the gank? Why not do it to farm some herbs...? How about making thousands of gold in dungeons... How about for a potential raid drop?

Yeah.. No, that's definitely not a perspective based argument. Blizzard has it's ToS and you are breaking them. Repeatedly abusing any system inside the game for your own good is malicious and is considered an exploit, and of course is a bannable offense. Nobody should abuse layering just because they can, doing it exposes you to being banned. Blizzard has always been vocal about this, players always had and will have the onus to abide by the ToS.

Yeah their moderation hasn't been on point and form my perspective they should address more seriously this issue; and of course you can keep abusing layering to your own good (screwing the rest of your server along the way), but if they finally take action and ban you, don't complain mate.

There is nomenclature for someone that expresses things like you are @Stfuppercut, it's called ASPD, or colloquially, sociopaths. I believe your moral compass regarding your (frequent) opinions on layering is heavily distorted.

Kall wrote: ↑

5 years ago

There is nomenclature for someone that expresses things like you are @Stfuppercut , it's called ASPD, or colloquially, sociopaths. I believe your moral compass regarding your (frequent) opinions on layering is heavily distorted.

Diagnosing a personality disorder to a stranger in a forum is just the way to go mate.

This is good, but should have been permanently banned.

IMO these type of people are the same like cheaters. Pathetic.

Yeah, making assumptions about someones state of mind is clearly too much. Its only natural to be biased towards yourself, we all do this.

It's just a wizardz and goblinz fighting game. If you mess about with layering fair play. If you get rekt later when Blizz swing the bat fair play. If you get away with it fair play. It's just a game to be gamed and won and lost. Exploits are not war crimes, no need to turn it into an idealogical battleground.

I think I might abuse it at least once for fun if I knew about it but I dont think I would continue on doing so. I understand why some people would, as it became an inherent system of the game and if lot of people are abusing it and you are not, you are at sort of a disadvantage, at least in someones mind. On the other hand I am glad that the people that abused it got punished hard, they got what they deserved.

Aberron wrote: ↑

5 years ago

It's just a wizardz and goblinz fighting game. If you mess about with layering fair play. If you get rekt later when Blizz swing the bat fair play. If you get away with it fair play. It's just a game to be gamed and won and lost. Exploits are not war crimes, no need to turn it into an idealogical battleground.

/thread

teebling wrote: ↑

5 years ago

/thread

I thought it was a relatively interesting thread. I don't think it should be case closed with a simple "play the game" post. Especially when things like this impact the game itself, the players & the community. Blanket 1 month bans, item removals and peoples opinions on the fallout is probably one of the more interesting and impactful threads on this site post launch.