Hey folks, it's pretty easy to find infos about high level and raid tanking but what about low level? Seem like there's a good 100% to 150% damage difference between beta and private servers at low level which greatly increase survivability before you can pick up redoubt but what about threat? I only tried to tank as a paladin once and it didn't went really well so i'd like to know what do you guys do early on to keep the mobs on you, spamming consecration doesn't sound like a good idea when a single cast burn like a quarter of your mana.

maybeprotmaybenot wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Hey folks, it's pretty easy to find infos about high level and raid tanking but what about low level? Seem like there's a good 100% to 150% damage difference between beta and private servers at low level which greatly increase survivability before you can pick up redoubt but what about threat? I only tried to tank as a paladin once and it didn't went really well so i'd like to know what do you guys do early on to keep the mobs on you, spamming consecration doesn't sound like a good idea when a single cast burn like a quarter of your mana.

Press the name of the Video , it will show you whole playlist of all type of 5 man low lvl tanking.

Hope will help you solve your problems or answer your question there.

Keep an eye on drinking amount and mana there , it helps you lot to understand how they work and why it work that way ;)

Hey so i took a look at your playlist and a few other sources and i think i got it, sub 30 you open with consecration, judge your main target and then ideally let righteousness do its thing for the rest of the fight while you regen your mana. Main problem i saw were overeager teammates who would go and split damages before you had time to build up threat which is really bad since you don't have a fat maul or sunder/revenge to easily get mobs back to you. Pretty sure marking skull each pull would leave you enough time to build threat from consec+ret aura for your dd to just go ham on the rest of the pull without fearing aggro loss.
Might be cool, guess i'll try that at release see if i like that playstyle.

maybeprotmaybenot wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Hey so i took a look at your playlist and a few other sources and i think i got it, sub 30 you open with consecration, judge your main target and then ideally let righteousness do its thing for the rest of the fight while you regen your mana. Main problem i saw were overeager teammates who would go and split damages before you had time to build up threat which is really bad since you don't have a fat maul or sunder/revenge to easily get mobs back to you. Pretty sure marking skull each pull would leave you enough time to build threat from consec+ret aura for your dd to just go ham on the rest of the pull without fearing aggro loss.
Might be cool, guess i'll try that at release see if i like that playstyle.

overeager teammates who would go and split damages before you had time to build up threat which is really bad since you don't have a fat maul or sunder/revenge to easily get mobs back to you.

Warriors/Druids wont change the same split damage if such thing happen even with their fat maul or sunder/revenge, neither Taunt is going to save them from that.

Sunder/revenge wont do more threat than Judgement of Righteousness will at the 1st second , neither Fat Maul wont do more threat than JoR either.

Maul should blow Judgement out of the water for snap threat since it has a 1.75 threat multiplier before the 1.495 threat multiplier from Bear form.

To put that into perspective, a Bear critting Maul for 200 damage will cause 520+ threat on the target. A 200 Judgement would cause 380 threat. Maul also only have an effective cooldown of 2.5 seconds which is your attackspeed, instead of 10 second (8 if talentet) cooldown on Judgement. Maul also scales incredibly well with gear.

Taunt is also an excellent ability to keep a group under control while leveling, since you dont have to micromanage every mob like a Paladin does. Paladins are fine tanks for pre 60 though so if you want to tank some dungeons it should be fine as long as you either have consecration or know how to manage your auto attacks to keep everything under control. Takes a bit more work than the other two tanks, but it will get the dungeons done.

Holyfrog wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Taunt is also an excellent ability to keep a group under control while leveling, since you dont have to micromanage every mob like a Paladin does.

Taunt is a really excellent ability for tanking!

When your job is to take the hits, having an ability that makes the mobs attack you is great. Who knew right?

Holyfrog wrote: ↑

5 years ago

To put that into perspective, a Bear critting Maul for 200 damage will cause 520+ threat on the target. A 200 Judgement would cause 380 threat. Maul also only have an effective cooldown of 2.5 seconds which is your attackspeed, instead of 10 second (8 if talentet) cooldown on Judgement. Maul also scales incredibly well with gear.

Once you hit level 26 you get BoSalv which is basically a 1.43 multiplier on your threat on top of Righteous Fury. Consecration snatches all the mobs, SoR keeps them focused on you, JoR provides snap threat.

Holyfrog wrote: ↑

5 years ago

To put that into perspective, a Bear critting Maul for 200 damage will cause 520+ threat on the target. A 200 Judgement would cause 380 threat. Maul also only have an effective cooldown of 2.5 seconds which is your attackspeed, instead of 10 second (8 if talentet) cooldown on Judgement. Maul also scales incredibly well with gear.

A 200 Judgement could also crit for 300 (since you compared Maul Crit vs Judgement non Crit) and cause 570+ threat on the target either , when we compare crit versus non crit.

Snap aggro is the aggro at 1st second , where Judgement is going to beat Maul on that.

If we talk about long duration , then JoR and SoR + White Swings are going to always beat Maul (same ability) , especially that you need huge amount of Rage in order to cast Maul.

Taunt is fine, but it can resist + have CD + Mobs/Bosses can be immune on that+ does no additional threat which mean after effect you can loose the target if no additional threat was made.

Talking about split aggro , Consecration is always going to defeat Maul in regard to the group threat.

To Maul 5 mobs, you need to waste 15 Seconds in order to (hope for crit) and do 2500 threat (if all are crit).

Within 15 Seconds you would have 2x Consecrations = 7296 threat among the same mobs.

As i said , No Revenge/Sunder/Maul is going to save you from split damage as Warrior/Druid , if the same thing is issue for Paladin by overgeared jerks around.

On top of that put Salvation to play a role in the threat , so your JoR Crit wont be 570 threat, but it will become 741 threat.

Holyfrog wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Paladins are fine tanks for pre 60 though so if you want to tank some dungeons it should be fine as long as you either have consecration or know how to manage your auto attacks to keep everything under control. Takes a bit more work than the other two tanks, but it will get the dungeons done.

(As always and as i said already in previous page, you denigrate Paladins no matter what, instead of being helpful toward them).

Spamming 1 Ability = Consecration , doesn't need lot work at all , unlike Warrior/Druids who have to spam tab in order to hopefully keep whole group on them. So it's vice versa, Warrior and Druids are these who need huge amount of work compare to Paladin.

Darg727 wrote: ↑

5 years ago

you get BoSalv

It's such a pity other paladin specs also get BoSalv

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

especially that you need huge amount of Rage in order to cast Maul.

Killerduki..

Maul cost 10 Rage, 7 with the Idol. Maul Returns 5 Rage when it crits. Druids have a really high base crit and they have nothing else to spend Rage on other than Maul unless you count Swipe, which you dont really have any need to cast unless it's against multiple targets.
But then again, Swipe costs 12 Rage and returns 5 Rage when it crits, and it hits 3 targets, meaning it can actually return more rage than it costs.

Druids have effectively infinite Rage due to how their mechanics work.

You clearly dont care enough to read up on how other classes actually work, so please just shut the fuck up.

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

On top of that put Salvation to play a role in the threat

The issue with Salvation is that either you are alone, and you give up your offensive Blessings which would increase a groups killspeed. A Druid dont have to give up Mark of the Wild or Leader of the Pack when tanking. A Warrior dont have to give up Battleshout.

And if you happen to have another Paladin in the group, then the other tanks get to take advantage of Salvation regardless.

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

A 200 Judgement could also crit for 300 (since you compared Maul Crit vs Judgement non Crit) and cause 570+ threat on the target either , when we compare crit versus non crit.

I mean realistically, if we use actual numbers you see in the actual game, instead of my hypothethical example, then no. It's not even close. Judgement isnt nowhere near the Damage of Maul and it crits a whole lot more often. Hint: You wont have any crit on your gear when tanking as a Paladin.

Holyfrog wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Killerduki..

Maul cost 10 Rage, 7 with the Idol. Maul Returns 5 Rage when it crits. Druids have a really high base crit and they have nothing else to spend Rage on other than Maul unless you count Swipe, which you dont really have any need to cast unless it's against multiple targets.
But then again, Swipe costs 12 Rage and returns 5 Rage when it crits, and it hits 3 targets, meaning it can actually return more rage than it costs.

Druids have effectively infinite Rage due to how their mechanics work.

You clearly dont care enough to read up on how other classes actually work, so please just shut the fuck up.

Each time it does miss = Rage lost , Each time it does Dodge = Rage lost , Each time it does Parry = Rage lost , Each time it does not Crit = Rage lost


(especially with the Blue Post which Blizzard explained how Crit work and it's nearly 4 times lower than Pservers) .

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t ... /185675/12

Quoting :

Critical Strike chance is reduced by 1% per each additional level the target has over the player. (So if you have a 4% chance to crit an at-level target, you have a 1% chance to crit a +3-level target, in both clients.)

You do ignore that ^ it seems .

The issue with Salvation is that either you are alone, and you give up your offensive Blessings which would increase a groups killspeed. A Druid dont have to give up Mark of the Wild or Leader of the Pack when tanking. A Warrior dont have to give up Battleshout.

And if you happen to have another Paladin in the group, then the other tanks get to take advantage of Salvation regardless.
k

Still , even with Salvation , other Tanks are not going to be nowhere near Consecration Threat against 5 Target mobs while at the same time group split damage and is overgeared.

I mean realistically, if we use actual numbers you see in the actual game, instead of my hypothethical example, then no. It's not even close. Judgement isnt nowhere near the Damage of Maul and it crits a whole lot more often. Hint: You wont have any crit on your gear when tanking as a Paladin.

I do have Intellect Stat and Buffs (if mage in group or druid or another pally for kings) and Intellect scale for Paladin much better than other Classes, which is going to cause Judgement to Crit often.
What numbers you see in the actual game?

Yeah , you know , today i tested Beta = did 2 times higher Crit amounts compare to the Pservers by Judgement .

What numbers are you talking about? Those from Pservers or those from Original Classic (far from pservers different) ?

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Yeah , you know , today i tested Beta = did 2 times higher Crit amounts compare to the Pservers by Judgement .

So wait.. We have had Beta since May. People have been extensively testing and documenting every Paladin mechanic. But you logged in today and noticed Judgement critting for twice the amount of private servers, but somehow nobody ever noticed?



I just find it funny how you repeatedly get yourself to state things that are completely untrue over and over We have a formula for the seal damage for every level now based on the Beta. The Judgement damage at 60 is pretty much exactly how private servers have tuned it.

At least if you are going to exaggerate, dont use the word Twice. Nobody will believe that.

Holyfrog wrote: ↑

5 years ago

I just find it funny how you repeatedly get yourself to state things that are completely untrue over and over We have a formula for the seal damage for every level now based on the Beta. The Judgement damage at 60 is pretty much exactly how private servers have tuned it.

At least if you are going to exaggerate, dont use the word Twice. Nobody will believe that.

Nobody said Damage, it was said Crit. And how it can be untrue when i did test for over 200 Judgements , where with same amount of tests i did on Pservers it shown different results.

In Pservers from 200 Judges at level 10 i had 15 Crits.
In Original Classic from 200 Judges at level 10 i had 28 Crits. (that's nearly Twice or with the missing 2 Crits it was going to be twice higher)

Partial Resists on Judges was higher on Pservers compared to Original either.

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

In Pservers from 200 Judges at level 10 i had 15 Crits.
In Original Classic from 200 Judges at level 10 i had 28 Crits. (that's nearly Twice or with the missing 2 Crits it was going to be twice higher)

So you mean the amount of crits? Alright.

So how can it be untrue? Well because you dont understand data collection. I mean you DO understand that crit is based on your actual stats right? And on level 1-15 you only have your base 5% crit and whatever you get from gear, which is what? 50-60 intellect per point of crit? Private server developers understand how stats work.

Even if you did such a test, which I doubt. 200 is a ridiculously small sample size, and getting a 15 to 28 difference out of 200 is well within reasonable expectations with a 5% crit chance. It's impossible to draw any conclusions from your so called data.

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Partial Resists on Judges was higher on Pservers compared to Original either.

There are no partial resist on Judges on private servers. Thats only something you have in Classic.

Holyfrog wrote: ↑

5 years ago

The issue with Salvation is that either you are alone, and you give up your offensive Blessings which would increase a groups killspeed. A Druid dont have to give up Mark of the Wild or Leader of the Pack when tanking. A Warrior dont have to give up Battleshout.

And if you happen to have another Paladin in the group, then the other tanks get to take advantage of Salvation regardless.

You are ignoring the fact that blessings can be used as needed. A paladin tank also brings other utilities that the other tanks don't. If there is another paladin in the group that's 2 blessings instead of 1.

Holyfrog wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Maul cost 10 Rage, 7 with the Idol. Maul Returns 5 Rage when it crits.

In group content you'll most likely be around 20% crit which would average the cost to 6. Either way, for 4 out of 6 content phases for classic there shouldn't be any idols, librams, or totems. I just don't understand how you can get "effectively infinite rage." Normal elites may give 1 rage per hit but that doesn't make up the difference unless you have 5+ mobs hitting you at once which would make maul fairly inefficient in delivering threat ( 12.5 seconds to deliver "523" threat on only 5 targets).

A more realistic scenario would be your Maul just doing 200 damage or 523 threat with a 20% chance for an extra 523 threat. In that same scenario with a Judgement that does 200 damage would do 390 threat + SoR 109 + auto attack damage at let's say 110 = 609. That's just Maul vs JoR, but the situation is very similar and they both have ways of increasing threat deliveries. Let's face it, if the healer needs 500+ threat to have a mob pulled off they healed some one with a big heal right after pulling an add which is the perfect time to use emergency cooldowns: taunt/challenging roar and BoProtection. Or they'll live with one or two whacks for pulling an add.

Holyfrog wrote: ↑

5 years ago

base 5% crit and whatever you get from gear, which is what? 50-60 intellect per point of crit? Private server developers understand how stats work.

I don't know how Private Servers work, but I don't remember there being a base chance for a crit for players. That and I remember the crit from int for pallies being theorized around 30 int per crit as the infamous blue post ominously left out the details for paladin.

Roadblock wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Darg727 wrote: ↑

5 years ago

you get BoSalv

It's such a pity other paladin specs also get BoSalv

I don't understand your reasoning. Why is it a pity? I think it is a great thing for group play.

Holyfrog wrote: ↑

5 years ago

So how can it be untrue? Well because you dont understand data collection. I mean you DO understand that crit is based on your actual stats right? And on level 1-15 you only have your base 5% crit and whatever you get from gear, which is what? 50-60 intellect per point of crit? Private server developers understand how stats work.

See , how uninformed you are , therefore you denigrate things you are not familiar with.

29.5% is Classic Int = 1% Spell Crit (ONLY) for Paladins.

Holyfrog wrote: ↑

5 years ago

There are no partial resist on Judges on private servers. Thats only something you have in Classic.

Which is extremely wrong statement you just said and complete lie.

Partial resist on Judges on Private Servers are HUGE . Otherwise you gotta prove me wrong , i got whole bunch of Youtube Videos where you can see it Partial Resists.

https://forum.elysium-project.org/topic ... ent-408056

Here is Post from Elysium before split with Lighthope (so Lighthope took his Data) , and using Nost Core. There is also Theloras confirming it.

Holyfrog wrote: ↑

5 years ago

And on level 1-15 you only have your base 5% crit and whatever you get from gear, which is what? 50-60 intellect per point of crit?

Yeah sure, at level 1 you can stack 1000 of intellect in order to gain 10% :) . Funny how you don't even read yourself when you write something.

Darg727 wrote: ↑

5 years ago

A more realistic scenario would be your Maul just doing 200 damage or 523 threat with a 20% chance for an extra 523 threat. In that same scenario with a Judgement that does 200 damage would do 390 threat + SoR 109 + auto attack damage at let's say 110 = 609. That's just Maul vs JoR, but the situation is very similar and they both have ways of increasing threat deliveries. Let's face it, if the healer needs 500+ threat to have a mob pulled off they healed some one with a big heal right after pulling an add which is the perfect time to use emergency cooldowns: taunt/challenging roar and BoProtection. Or they'll live with one or two whacks for pulling an add.

Just to add = on top of that JoW is going to provide him 0.5 threat per 1 mana or JoL is going to provide him 0.25 threat per 1 heal.

Still in 1 or another way , SoR/JoW/White swings vs Maul are going to provide lot higher due to JoW/JoL factors in it. (On top of Doubling Weapon Proc thanks to SoR like Thunderfury which is going to make massive AoE threat compare to Maul)

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Darg727 wrote: ↑

5 years ago

A more realistic scenario would be your Maul just doing 200 damage or 523 threat with a 20% chance for an extra 523 threat. In that same scenario with a Judgement that does 200 damage would do 390 threat + SoR 109 + auto attack damage at let's say 110 = 609. That's just Maul vs JoR, but the situation is very similar and they both have ways of increasing threat deliveries. Let's face it, if the healer needs 500+ threat to have a mob pulled off they healed some one with a big heal right after pulling an add which is the perfect time to use emergency cooldowns: taunt/challenging roar and BoProtection. Or they'll live with one or two whacks for pulling an add.

Just to add = on top of that JoW is going to provide him 0.5 threat per 1 mana or JoL is going to provide him 0.25 threat per 1 heal.

Still in 1 or another way , SoR/JoW/White swings vs Maul are going to provide lot higher due to JoW/JoL factors in it. (On top of Doubling Weapon Proc thanks to SoR like Thunderfury which is going to make massive AoE threat compare to Maul)

The whole point was snap threat. In a group scenario you normally aren't going to waste mana to use JoW/L for threat in a multi target situation because the threat gets divided and the mobs usually die too quickly. A boss is different, but you usually don't need snap threat for that and consecration is usually good enough.

I skipped 16 out of 17 pages because I'm really surprised this lasted so long. I see peeps crunching numbers, I see others saying yes in dungeons, don't let your dreams be dreams and so on. But to be quite blunt, if you can't swim then stay the hell away from water.
You [Paladins] can't tank swap so forget about ever being MT or OT on any raid, that's the obvious part, but you're also absolutely dangerous to the rest of the party on any dungeon you set foot on as a tank. I would never invite a Paladin to tank any dungeons, that group is just setting itself up for failure and eventually disband.
You have what? a Hammer of Justice stun and Righteous Fury? It's not sustainable, and it's going to be a very slow run.

Kall wrote: ↑

5 years ago

I would never invite a Paladin to tank any dungeons, that group is just setting itself up for failure and eventually disband.

Kall wrote: ↑

5 years ago

I skipped 16 out of 17 pages because I'm really surprised this lasted so long. I see peeps crunching numbers, I see others saying yes in dungeons, don't let your dreams be dreams and so on. But to be quite blunt, if you can't swim then stay the hell away from water.
You [Paladins] can't tank swap so forget about ever being MT or OT on any raid, that's the obvious part, but you're also absolutely dangerous to the rest of the party on any dungeon you set foot on as a tank. I would never invite a Paladin to tank any dungeons, that group is just setting itself up for failure and eventually disband.
You have what? a Hammer of Justice stun and Righteous Fury? It's not sustainable, and it's going to be a very slow run.

lol. "I'm willingly ignorant and admit so before posting my uninformed opinion created from prejudice."

Thanks for your wonderful contribution.

@Pluuf I think you overdosed on the salt there mate. You must have played a different vanilla than mine.

Kall wrote: ↑

5 years ago

blah blah blabbity blah

Kall wrote: ↑

5 years ago

You must have played a different vanilla than mine.

By the https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=6942/ ... ing-stench of https://classic.wowhead.com/npc=16375/sewage-slime, I say ! This https://classic.wowhead.com/npc=1270/fetid-corpse wrote so much nonsense that insulting him properly would take a bloody essay !! It sounds like the https://classic.wowhead.com/npc=10925/rotting-worm talks out of his hollow ass !!! Stay on the Horde side https://classic.wowhead.com/npc=364/slime, we don't need your kind around here ! And learn to vanilla before you open your cadaverous gob !!!