Holyfrog wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Spent so much time here defeating every point Killerduki made only for him to come back and spam the exact same garbage that was already disproved all over again while just completely ignoring the last 12 pages of discussion.

It's insanely annoying, and I hope people are clever enough to just ignore the guy by now because he's really taken a lesson from Aldous Huxley's Brave New World. If people disagree with what you say then rather than reconsider your own position, or make better arguments you just drown them in information to the point where nobody can be bothered to distinguish between true and false anymore.

Yea. I definitely think there is a line and he crossed it almost immediately. Started namecalling and accusing people of being racists, spammed the chat and put low effort into his posts. He seemed to be stuck in a mental loop throughout the entire discussion and never moved the conversation forward. I understand being passionate about Classic, I am super pumped for Classic, and I understand wanting to give a good quantity of information, but his ideas aren't even organized.

To your point about spooking of would-be paladin players, I think this is exactly the case. People like this do such an immense quantity of irreparable harm to their own communities. In a few months Classic will have all sorts of fresh eyes on it and new players will be seeking info on a variety of builds. They will google prot paladins and these kinds of interactions will come up. The good news is that they will also see your posts.

I know that I started the conversation with pretty reasonable expectations of paladins. After talking with Duki and Psojed and even seeing some of the overconfidence and arrogance presented by other paladins, It was pretty off-putting. For a spec that depends on teamwork and collaboration to work and for a spec that has limited opportunity like prot pally, you would think the people who played it would be a bit more tactful. Luckily for this community they do have rational voices like yourself who are giving solid information as well, and are doing so with a bit of diplomacy.

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

5 years ago

After talking with Duki and Psojed and even seeing some of the overconfidence and arrogance presented by other paladins, It was pretty off-putting.

You mean the lessons @Psojed gave to you and Holyfrog about it, but then you and Holyfrog decided to derail it with low efforts?!

Reminder :

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1655&start=125

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1655&start=150

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1655&start=175

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1655&start=200

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1655&start=225

It's funny how you are the one getting Arrogant and Aggressive when things are not in favor regarding your believes and ways.

I admit , my "Engrish" is poor , mainly when i am writing with lots of Grammar errors.

But then when someone like @Psojed who actually speak fluent English but do share "similar" (Not same) views to mine , giving you a lesson about it in proper english way , you are straight forward getting nervous and repeating with huge ignorance same Denigrating words about Paladins.

Even tho he failed you multiple times with facts and evidence and words, you still wont and don't admit that you were/are/is wrong!

Tec wrote: ↑

5 years ago

I’m learning more about paladins from this thread alone than years of retail.

Quite fascinating stuff if you remove some of the weird parts of the thread.

I'm taking this as an invitation to remove "the weird parts" as a service to the community

So for people that want to skip to the meat and bones (high effort + quality of information) posts here's a handy list

• p15236
• p16433
• p16499
• p17259*****
• p17287
• p17295
• p17320
• p17327
• p17349
• p17351
• p17366
• p17367***
• p17375
• p17389
• p17396
• p17423***
• p17585**
• p17645****

Now you don't have to read 13 pages of copy paste.

Caspus wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Druids wear leafs and stuff on their shoulders and live stress free. Wish I could be a druid but I was born a paladin sadly.

Feeling leafy baby

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

You mean the lessons @Psojed gave to you and Holyfrog about it, but then you and Holyfrog decided to derail it with low efforts?!

Sort of like when Psojed told us that prot paladins dont use consumables? Yeah, he had some really insightful information to add to the conversation.

@Roadblock Great job on that list!

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

5 years ago

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

You mean the lessons @Psojed gave to you and Holyfrog about it, but then you and Holyfrog decided to derail it with low efforts?!

Sort of like when Psojed told us that prot paladins dont use consumables? Yeah, he had some really insightful information to add to the conversation.

But he was right about that, he didn't base his information on words like you do , he did base it on evidence presented and this Video is pure evidence about it , when a single elixir (which wouldn't make any difference if it was not used) was used without ANY other Consume used , no pots,no runes etc etc.

He never said "no consumes" , but he said that you can do it even without , which mean you are not dependent on Consumes like those "Paladin experts" are preaching about it spilling false infos and lies. .

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

He never said "no consumes" , but he said that you can do it even without , which mean you are not dependent on Consumes like those "Paladin experts" are preaching about it spilling false infos and lies. .

Yes he did. He said:

Psojed wrote: ↑

5 years ago

A prot Paladin doesn't need to be "too geared" to make it work.

Protadin doesn't need the group to be hyper-aware of not having a taunt.

Protadin is NOT based on consumables.

And realistically you are heavily reliant on consumes and gear. You are definitively wrong.

Why try to lie in a thread that we can just scroll back and read... Dont be dumb.

Eh, not exactly. I've progressed BWL in basically pre-bis gear as a prot paladin and for consumes its no different than a warrior tank stacking his consumes. Just have mana pots and demonic runes at the minimum. Easy to get and farm.

I've tanked as both Warrior and Paladin. Paladins are more comfortable as Off tanks but can still MT a lot of bosses. Warriors are still the go to MT but boring as hell to play at least in my eyes.
Most bosses are taunt immune so whenever I see that argument I roll my eyes.
You get gear as you go. You get most of your big upgrades by AQ40 but you also have to realize that there is a lot of gear that is BoE/Outside raids that outmatch MC gear and are on par with BWL gear. You get a lot of gear from ZG that are superior than BWL gear like Hakkar legs and ZG shield. This is all before you actually face "Challenging" content such as AQ40+
Consumes are easy to farm and using consumables as a argument is pretty hilarious. I don't recommend raiding if you don't want to farm consumes. You can argue that every class is "consume reliant".

This is usually the average consumes I brought to raid as a prot paladin. I was very lazy and was usually drunk every raid but despite that I kept up.


This is what I brought on my warrior dps to be even taken seriously in raids. I've spent more gold a week as a warrior on consumes for both tanking and DPSing than I ever did on my paladin.

Caspus wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Just have mana pots and demonic runes at the minimum. Easy to get and farm.

Right. But these are requirements. Even for 5 mans, waiting for a pally tank to drink is cancer. If your group pulls extra adds etc, he will need to use consumes to recover mana quickly and gain threat, where a warrior will not. For many pally tanks, using engineering acts as their primary ranged pull, which also requires consumes. This thread started with a casual player asking for the viability of prot tanking as a casual. Farming consumes so that your class can function adequately means that your class requires consumes. Sitting and drinking in dungeons, slows your group down.

I never had engineering when I played prot since i was the guild armorsmith and I used mining as my main income. I did a lot of things wrong yet was still able to keep up. For 5 mans it sounds like that particular paladin you're talking about is just playing the class wrong. I pull extra mobs to make up for the drinking. You also don't need to mana dump on every pull. I usually never used mana pots and runes in dungeons. Just buy a bunch of mage water and bind it to a key to spam drink asap after combat. Re-pull when you're back to 40-60% mana. I'm talking a 5-6 seconds between pulls.

Still coming off what the OP was asking. He was wanting to know if paladins can tank. Yes they can tank. Even on a casual level. For some reason it always ends in a circle jerk between how viable something is. Its as viable as the person playing makes it to be. Warriors are better tanks, shocker. But its not that much better and frankly I don't know why people get so bent out of shape over it. It's vanilla WoW. This is a casual game to its very core.

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

5 years ago

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

He never said "no consumes" , but he said that you can do it even without , which mean you are not dependent on Consumes like those "Paladin experts" are preaching about it spilling false infos and lies. .

Yes he did. He said:

Psojed wrote: ↑

5 years ago

A prot Paladin doesn't need to be "too geared" to make it work.

Protadin doesn't need the group to be hyper-aware of not having a taunt.

Protadin is NOT based on consumables.

And realistically you are heavily reliant on consumes and gear. You are definitively wrong.

Why try to lie in a thread that we can just scroll back and read... Dont be dumb.

And realistically you are heavily reliant on consumes and gear. You are definitively wrong.

Again you are ignoring evidence :



No heavily consumes reliant.

About Gear , ROFL = Yeah sure Naked Warrior will Main Tank Raid Bosses. . You argument made me laughing...

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Caspus wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Just have mana pots and demonic runes at the minimum. Easy to get and farm.

Right. But these are requirements. Even for 5 mans, waiting for a pally tank to drink is cancer. If your group pulls extra adds etc, he will need to use consumes to recover mana quickly and gain threat, where a warrior will not. For many pally tanks, using engineering acts as their primary ranged pull, which also requires consumes. This thread started with a casual player asking for the viability of prot tanking as a casual. Farming consumes so that your class can function adequately means that your class requires consumes. Sitting and drinking in dungeons, slows your group down.

Right. But these are requirements. Even for 5 mans, waiting for a pally tank to drink is cancer. If your group pulls extra adds etc, he will need to use consumes to recover mana quickly and gain threat, where a warrior will not.

That's not true at all , the one who have most issue between pulls , regenerating rage in order to make threat is Warrior , where Paladin who play properly never waste any second to Drink , neither waste time Drinking , it can happen but mainly when Healers and Casters in group drink .

If group pulls extra adds especially Warrior is the one who can't aggro and keep them all on him which is going to cause Wipe.
Paladin in that case can always and should always use Seal/Judge of Wisdom = Infinite mana regeneration and no Consumes requirement in order to spam AoE .

For many pally tanks, using engineering acts as their primary ranged pull, which also requires consumes.

Not really , i don't need Engineering if i want to pull group easy,neither i am obligated to do "Range Pull" if i want to pull something.

Farming consumes so that your class can function adequately means that your class requires consumes. Sitting and drinking in dungeons, slows your group down.

Farming consumes is done by every class and spec, Paladin doesn't need them in order to function adequately , but doesn't mean that i should not use them in order to make the Raids easier for everyone.

Neither i sit and drink , neither i slow the group down , but instead it's twice faster than a Warrior can do. Especially that Warriors are going to do 3 times lesser DPS as Tank compare to Paladin and that Warriors don't have strong AoE like Consecration!

Killerduki. I have no idea what your deal is, but you clearly dont care about truth, reason and actually helping people play Protection Paladin.

You are repeatedly lying, ignoring any evidence you dont like, repeating the same statements that already got debunked multiple times, and generally being an unpleasant, toxic and insulting person towards anyone that does not agree with you, and you have done so for the past 5-6 years on every forum imaginable. I really cannot think of a reason why anyone would be willing to do that.

I suspect you simply never at any point played with good players. Because you made Protection Paladin work, you now think the spec is super good, but in reality you have never been around any Warrior tank who actually knew what they were doing, and your perspective is highly skewed because of it. Too bad you dont have the capacity to even consider that you might be wrong, about anything.

Let's go through some of what you have said post by post:

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

That's not true at all , the one who have most issue between pulls , regenerating rage in order to make threat is Warrior

Good warriors pool their rage so they can pull the next group with 90+ rage ready to go. You actually dont know anything about Warrior tanks and it shows. So perhaps consider that you might just be wrong in your comparisons. Neither a Paladin nor a Warrior should have any trouble pulling a new group.
In fact, a Warrior is somewhat better at it. When a Paladin run out of mana, there's nothing they can do to keep threat. Meanwhile if a Warrior happens to be out of Rage and someone asspull an extra group, the warrior can use Bloodrage, Berserker Rage (if furyspec), or just simply taunt the mob which will make the mob focus the warrior and let him start generating rage from being hit.

Warrior is straight up better here. It's entirely pointless to dispute that.

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Neither i sit and drink , neither i slow the group down , but instead it's twice faster than a Warrior can do.

Random claim with no evidence to support it.
This ties in with the quote above. If you are going to claim that the class that has a finite resource pool and lower threat generation while also taking more damage due to having worse available gear and no def stance is the one capable of doing dungeons faster you need proof. Something you never seem to bother with.

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Again you are ignoring evidence :



No heavily consumes reliant.

The only person ignoring anything here is you. I already picked this video apart and showed that it's not a good representation of Paladin tanking. You dont need consumables when half the raid is afk and the highest DPS does 1/3 of what a good DPS would be able to produce.
Link to post: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1655&p=17366#p17366

By reposting the same video after it has already been debunked as not proving what you claim it proves, you demonstrate that you have zero intent of actually debating. You clearly dont care if what you say is actually true or not. When your evidence has been debunked, and you keep posting it anyway then I can only see that as you being perfectly aware that you are incorrect, but engaging in my reply would be admitting your argument really wasnt very good.

And dont bother posting your private server videos. By your own words, only sources taken from 2005/2006 actually counts.

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Are you fucking serious ?! Find me a single (FULL DUNGEON OR RAID RUN) , from all of your "GOOD SPECS" Video from 2005 or 2006 in order to prove your claims first before you come here shitting on something that is not possible to be done according to your retarded requests!

So as we can see, Killerduki do not believe in any evidence from after 2006. Because of this, we can straight up ignore any of the videos he posts, because they are from private servers, and according to Killerduki himself, they are not trustworthy.

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Where as compensation to your 300 Armor i can simple use Greater Stoneshield Potion and be Armor Cap , so basically your Weapon is ended up worth nothing or perhaps it does worth only on a few fights.

Most importantly is that in Original Classic Mobs and Bosses are going to do 3-4 Times lesser Physical dmg compare to Pservers , so your "Tank Weapon" is basically "noob weapon" for Paladin.

More absurd claims without a shred of truth to them. First off, you cannot EVER reach armor cap as a Warrior or Paladin unless you get both Inspiration and Improved Lay on Hands. Lay on Hands has a 40 minute cooldown, and Inspiration requires a Priest to crit. Because Alliance dont have Shamans, who also have the same armor buff on crit, it simply wont be up for the majority of the time.

Paladins in full best in slot gear have about 10.000 armor. Armor cap is last time I checked at 17.300 armor. You are simply not reaching that level of armor at any point throughout the game.

Besides, you wont be able to use Stoneshield Potion, because you require mana potion to keep up threat. Stop saying you dont. We already went through this, and you keep ignoring it like you always do:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1655&p=17320#p17320

Original Classic Mobs and Bosses are going to do 3-4 Times lesser Physical dmg compare to Pservers

This is an absolutely riddiculous claim that again you didnt provide a source for. 3-4x the damage is an EXTREME difference, and there's no way in hell that private servers got this so wrong. Just look at any video in existence from 2006 and you can immediately disprove this.

Killerduki demonstrates he just does not give a damn about what is actually true or not. He has no problem lying through his teeth and greatly exaggerate anything he says. He has completely and utterly shattered his own credibility at so many occasions, that at this point you have to be a fool to take anything he says at face value without an extensive thorough source provided by him, with actual math and hard data backing up his points.


So to end with. Nobody has disputed that Protection Paladins can tank in raids. They absolutely can. What is being argued, is that a Paladin tank is simply going to be worse than a Warrior tank in nearly every scenario. The spec have plenty of glaring flaws both mechanically and in terms of itemization that Warriors and to some extent Druids dont have.
If you actually wanted to get Protection Paladins to be a spec people want to play, then you MUST be open about these weaknesses, and aknowledge they exists. Take a more reasonable approach to Protection and work on helping people mitigate or overcome the weaknesses of the spec.

By flat out denying the most obvious weaknesses exists, and on top of that just stating things that arent true, like Lay on Hands being better than Shield Wall when Warriors actually can get both and Paladins cant, or greatly exaggerating other things like damage on private servers being 3-4x higher than Classic when literally no video in existence show a difference larger than 10-20% is just going to make people think you are an actual idiot.

Because of you, Protection Paladins are the single most hated spec in the game. Everyone that hear of Protpaladin immediately think of you, and I'm sick and tired of constantly having to deal with endless amounts of hate and drama perpetuated by people who cannot even admit that glaring obvious issues are even issues in the first place.
It makes Protpaladins seem like a bunch if retarded children trying to fit the square peg into the round hole. Please, for the sake of your fellow Paladins just for once, admit that the spec isnt at the same level of a Warrior or Druid. You will have a much easier time that way.

I am fully of the opinion that a Protpaladin can work well in raids. But they are NOT the optimal choice for a Maintank, and that is just a fact. You would think 6 years of literally everyone disagreeing with you would be enough to make you at least consider you may be wrong. But I guess thats too much to ask..

Holyfrog wrote: ↑

5 years ago

I suspect you simply never at any point played with good players.

That's the most funny part i ever heard in my life :)

Sure Main Tanking over 13 Years as Protection Paladin,clearing Naxx and AQ40 is never going to make me play with good players , neither over such amount of years Tanking i ever played with Good Players ....

Your suspects are imo funny , but perhaps you are the one who never been good Paladin Tank it seem , since you failed to see how far Protection Paladin can and would go if you don't limit yourself on the hearsay forum troll posts/topics and learn how to read and follow those who know better than you.

Holyfrog wrote: ↑

5 years ago

You are repeatedly lying, ignoring any evidence you dont like, repeating the same statements that already got debunked multiple times,

What you have debunked already ?

What are the sources you already provide in order to counter my proof as evidence?!

I've seen so far nothing ,just cherry pick tiny stuffs which are on your own favor , ignoring those who you don't want to see.

Holyfrog wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Good warriors pool their rage so they can pull the next group with 90+ rage ready to go. You actually dont know anything about Warrior tanks and it shows. So perhaps consider that you might just be wrong in your comparisons. Neither a Paladin nor a Warrior should have any trouble pulling a new group.

Yeah sure as you say , that's why they gotta use Thousants of "Return Damage" Items, Engineering , Buffs , Consumes , Pull back , asking for group to wait on the pull etc etc.

You know , Paladin don't need anything of those stuffs in order to pull next and next group , moving forward without asking for group to wait or pull back etc , neither Paladin need any coordination in order to be faster than Warrior and do the run even when the Group is out of it's mind .

Evidence for that is this :



None of those Items , neither waiting for anyone in order to pull , neither failing when OOM in order to generate threat , while Warriors in other hand are those who will never beat such thing. On top of that the Warrior Damage is going to be super low compare to Paladin Damage thanks to Consecrations he is going to do , which makes the run much more faster and much more efficient than Warrior.

Holyfrog wrote: ↑

5 years ago

In fact, a Warrior is somewhat better at it. When a Paladin run out of mana, there's nothing they can do to keep threat. Meanwhile if a Warrior happens to be out of Rage and someone asspull an extra group, the warrior can use Bloodrage, Berserker Rage (if furyspec), or just simply taunt the mob which will make the mob focus the warrior and let him start generating rage from being hit.

Seal/Judgement of Wisdom = mana returned in few seconds using Flurry Axe , Lay on Hand = Mana returned as Paladin Tank , Mana Potion = mana returned as Paladin Tank , Demonic Runes = mana returned as Paladin Tank , Mp5 Buffs = mana returned as Paladin Tank , Innervate = mana returned as Paladin Tank.

Sorry but your Warrior can do what ? Nothing compare to the tools how much ways Paladins are going to have in order to work and increase their mana.

Not to mention that using Lay on Hand is AoE Taunt which causing huge amount of threat and forcing all mobs on you regardless of the range unlike your Taunt , on top of that Warrior Taunt can Resist , but BoP Healer will never Resist !

Good warriors pool their rage so they can pull the next group with 90+ rage ready to go.

Same as Good Paladins pool their mana so they can pull the next group with 100% mana ready to go.

Random claim with no evidence to support it.

Whole bunch of Videos in a single Play list of me Tanking 5 mans which supports my claims as Evidence that i don't waste time /sit and drinking unless Healer or Range DPS asks me to wait for them to drink.

This ties in with the quote above. If you are going to claim that the class that has a finite resource pool and lower threat generation while also taking more damage due to having worse available gear and no def stance is the one capable of doing dungeons faster you need proof. Something you never seem to bother with.

That's not true at all , Warriors AoE threat abilities are far worse than Paladin can pull with Consecration.

Mana is not a finite resource pool , it can be increased and regenerated by infinite amount (if you stack more and more intellect) as long you are using the tools for that.
Rage in other hand is finite resource pool , which wont be regenerated if you are not hitting targets or getting hit by targets and can be cap up to 100 (finite and limited) .
Shield Absorb , which is increased Block Value is what makes Paladin do 10 times higher damage mitigation when AoE Tanking is in question , something that Warrior never going to have it and Def Stance is 10% which is imo extremely low for Mobs Tanking in 5 mans compare to how much more damage Shield Absorb is going to mitigate in such scenarios.

The only person ignoring anything here is you. I already picked this video apart and showed that it's not a good representation of Paladin tanking. You dont need consumables when half the raid is afk and the highest DPS does 1/3 of what a good DPS would be able to produce.
Link to post: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1655&p=17366#p17366

That's why me as Paladin Tank in a Progression Raid where Me and Raid Group was on Pre Raid and Tier 1 Quality Gear, not only not using JoW , but also Raid DPS was low because of the constant Fears the Boss was doing toward them and they had to constantly moving out of Fire.

So 1/3 of what good DPS are you talking about in such scenario ? The Pre Raid and T1 Geared group eating Fears and have to move away from fire (not even using consumes) ,or the sitting and /spank Boss in 1 spot like you do on Patchwerk with fully consumed gear without eating fears or moving away from fire?

What you ignore completely in that fight is this ^ what i wrote above and you are always going to ignore that fact.

Not only didn't use JoW , but also no Consumes for me as MT , no Consumes used the Group , Tier 1 and Pre Raid Group (as progression Raid progressing thru Contents under Tier 2) , Group eating fears , Group moving away from fire.

When you are going to accept such thing and therefore provide me an Evidence that you got someone who is going to do more in such scenario , please do provide such evidence and then we can discuss about it , whether your claims are true or not , but until then you debunked nothing ,neither you proven anything there.

@Psojed already gave you lessons about that post you wrote : viewtopic.php?p=17398#p17398

And you ignoring it constantly.

By reposting the same video after it has already been debunked as not proving what you claim it proves, you demonstrate that you have zero intent of actually debating.

There was evidence which has proven you completely wrong ,but you keep ignoring it .

Standing Warrior on same quality of Gear = 488 DPS , now let compare that to my Warrior who is doing 280 DPS



0:05 (114.982) - 2:47 (161.885) = 2 minutes 42 seconds = 167 seconds . 46.903 damage / 167 = 280 DPS.

And compare to dps/spank sitting target , his dps was lower by 200 because of the following reasons :

1- Fear eating.
2- Needing to move away from Fire constantly.
3- Not using Consumes.
5- No special Debuffs or buffs to increase his dps.

He wasn't bad, but also he wasn't even 1/3 of the threat i been doing in order for me to have any issue handling him without Consumes or ANY Buffs using.



Enjoy facing your debunks wrong with pure evidence that your claims and believes are wrong.

So it's not me having any issues handling "Good DPS" what will do , it was you who failed to recognize the tiny things who are proving you wrong and therefore you tend to ignore them.

By reposting the same video after it has already been debunked as not proving what you claim it proves,

Now i gave you proofs for my claims, are you still going to demonstrate ignorance without YOU providing any proofs for your claims again?

I don't need words, i want to see sources!

And dont bother posting your private server videos. By your own words, only sources taken from 2005/2006 actually counts.

Like your claims and all your sources which are coming from Private Servers era and Videos?!

Please let us all see what you can provide as evidence from 2005/6?! Looking forward , not words , i want to see sources and evidence from you then which date from 2005/6 . No fiction facts , but pure evidence for every single claim you are going to provide!.

So as we can see, Killerduki do not believe in any evidence from after 2006. Because of this, we can straight up ignore any of the videos he posts, because they are from private servers, and according to Killerduki himself, they are not trustworthy.

Perhaps you speak that for yourself , not for me.



I have been doing this way before your private servers comes up and i clearly know what's wrong or right about which part of stuffs.

You still never came up to provide us Evidence and Source from 2006 , therefore you denigrate and deny my Videos and then you are claiming things about something that you have no evidence from 2006.

More absurd claims without a shred of truth to them. First off, you cannot EVER reach armor cap as a Warrior or Paladin unless you get both Inspiration and Improved Lay on Hands. Lay on Hands has a 40 minute cooldown, and Inspiration requires a Priest to crit. Because Alliance dont have Shamans, who also have the same armor buff on crit, it simply wont be up for the majority of the time.

Paladins in full best in slot gear have about 10.000 armor. Armor cap is last time I checked at 17.300 armor. You are simply not reaching that level of armor at any point throughout the game.

https://scontent.fskp3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/ ... e=5DD86A2D

9.3k Armor = Far from Best in slot Gear , no Buffs , no Best Shield used for Armor , no Consumes like Greater Stoneshield Potion , No Devotion Aura etc and on top of that No Improved Lay on Hand used .

It's much higher than 10k of how you claim , especially that 30% from 10k = 13k + Greater Stoneshield Potion = 15k + 918 = 16k + Mark of the Wild + Sroll/Elixir for Armor = Armor Cap.

Besides, you wont be able to use Stoneshield Potion, because you require mana potion to keep up threat. Stop saying you dont. We already went through this, and you keep ignoring it like you always do:

Evidence that i am using Greater Stoneshield Potion , not needing mana potion to keep up threat and far from being OOM , i died because i didn't used Greater Stoneshield Potion at end , but still i didn't used the mana potion at all ,neither i used shit tons of consumes , neither i used Flask either! Only Food , Raid Buffs , Demonic Runes and Greater Stoneshield Potion.

Not only that i had only 1 Judgement of Wisdom , but i also ended up miles ahead of the Warrior Tank at the end before i died on the Video regarding threat!

This is also another evidence which proves you wrong , not only you never brought any evidence at all , but also you criticize based on words and self believes , no sources , no evidence from you to counter the proofs given!

Holyfrog wrote: ↑

5 years ago

This is not proof. The post you link is from 2005, which is before the Paladin overhaul in patch 1.9 that dramatically changed the behaviour of almost every Paladin mechanic. SoR included. There's also no actual proof on this thread other than the poster stating it works. No ingame screenshot or anything of the sort.
It's perfectly possible the Seals ability to proc JoW was removed entirely in patch 1.9 and without some actual evidence from post 1.9 we will never know.

There's a certain irony here. You expect an absurd standard of evidence for anything regarding Warrior, but you are willing to consider any random forum thread evidence in favor of Paladins. You dont get to do that. If you wont adhere to your own standard of evidence, then I will simply dismiss your claims outright.

Not only you never gave any evidence for your personal claims to counter such proof , but also you deny the pure sources given from 2005 which proves my claims. Therefore previously you called me that i am the one who ignore evidence from 2005/2006 , which in fact is you , not me!

This is an absolutely riddiculous claim that again you didnt provide a source for. 3-4x the damage is an EXTREME difference, and there's no way in hell that private servers got this so wrong. Just look at any video in existence from 2006 and you can immediately disprove this.

Killerduki demonstrates he just does not give a damn about what is actually true or not. He has no problem lying through his teeth and greatly exaggerate anything he says. He has completely and utterly shattered his own credibility at so many occasions, that at this point you have to be a fool to take anything he says at face value without an extensive thorough source provided by him, with actual math and hard data backing up his points.

And i did and i see :



Footage from Beta Library Tanking at level 40 with poor Gear, mobs does 35-50 damage.



This is me Nostalrius/Elysium/Lighthope Tanking at level 40 with good Gear, mobs does 100-120 damage.

https://eu.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t ... list/50941

Officially Blue Post about Damage Dealt when people asked about it.

Damage dealt by elites is not too low.

Nothing better than pure Evidence that Pservers are wrong and your believes are 100% wrong! It's funny you are calling me wrong and lying.

Everyone can see who is lying here now!

So to end with. Nobody has disputed that Protection Paladins can tank in raids. They absolutely can. What is being argued, is that a Paladin tank is simply going to be worse than a Warrior tank in nearly every scenario.

That's not true , i said they are all equal in diverse way , doing same thing different way achieving same goal.

You still gave 0 evidence for such claim that Paladin is worse than a Warrior tank in nearly every scenario.

There are tons of scenarios where Paladin is going to beat Warrior Tank (damage dealing as tank , aoe fights , undead fights , taunt immune fights , physical immune fights , cleanse requirement fights , deadly debuffs removal fights , trash clearing fights , nightfall swinging as offtank fights etc etc there are tons of them).

The spec have plenty of glaring flaws both mechanically and in terms of itemization that Warriors and to some extent Druids dont have.

Even Fury Warrior don't got proper Tier Gear , but hell yeah ... Itemization .... something which you pull out of nowhere and is basically nonsense.
Paladins have amazing ways how to Gear up easy and faster and able to handle every single fight that exist.
Druids are those who can't handle eating crits easy unlike Paladins do and the Druids are those who have bigger issues Gearing up in order to survive some content, not Paladins!

If you actually wanted to get Protection Paladins to be a spec people want to play, then you MUST be open about these weaknesses, and aknowledge they exists. Take a more reasonable approach to Protection and work on helping people mitigate or overcome the weaknesses of the spec.

I already know what's the weakness of Paladins , but obviously you don't and you don't even care learning about , you pretend that you are expert about it and preaching false stuffs and lies , i don't do lie Paladin Community like you.

I present facts , i help them how to easy manage stuffs and handle stuffs , unlike you , you do what? Denigrate Protection Paladins only!

By flat out denying the most obvious weaknesses exists, and on top of that just stating things that arent true, like Lay on Hands being better than Shield Wall when Warriors actually can get both and Paladins cant,

Hell yeah , Lay on Hand = 2 minutes duration you are completely safe and have easy time Main Tanking and killing target.

Shield Wall is what ? Few seconds to survive (maybe) Enrage...

Sure Warrior is going to have both and get it better for few seconds, but having an extra Paladin Tank in group with it = extra 2 minutes more mitigation compare to having Warrior which is few seconds and have to rely on others to get some Damage Mitigation , where as Paladin you wouldn't .

Shield Wall is not going to guarantee that your HP is going to be filled, Lay on Hand will and instead of using 4 Warrior Tanks , using Paladin Tank in group with Warriors is way better than their Shield Walls which last few seconds while on top of the Paladin Healers an extra Paladin Tank with extra Improved LoH = extra 2 minutes and not few seconds.

Not only that , Shield Wall is selfish , LoH isn't and can be used to save anyone in group , which also confirm my claim that is better than Shield Wall.
Imp LoH = 30% more Armor for 2 minutes (majority of fights don't even last that long) , Full HP , Regenerating mana if you are 0 or under 20% , Causing huge amount of threat (depend on how much HP was healed) , can be used on anyone.
Shield Wall = few seconds 75% damage reduction , selfish , no other effects , will die if not healed during the effect.

or greatly exaggerating other things like damage on private servers being 3-4x higher than Classic when literally no video in existence show a difference larger than 10-20% is just going to make people think you are an actual idiot.

Or actually you are the one who insult now and the one who ignore the evidence given.



Footage from Beta Library Tanking at level 40 with poor Gear, mobs does 35-50 damage.



This is me Nostalrius/Elysium/Lighthope Tanking at level 40 with good Gear, mobs does 100-120 damage.

https://eu.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t ... list/50941

Officially Blue Post about Damage Dealt when people asked about it.

Damage dealt by elites is not too low.

Because of you, Protection Paladins are the single most hated spec in the game. Everyone that hear of Protpaladin immediately think of you, and I'm sick and tired of constantly having to deal with endless amounts of hate and drama perpetuated by people who cannot even admit that glaring obvious issues are even issues in the first place.
It makes Protpaladins seem like a bunch if retarded children trying to fit the square peg into the round hole. Please, for the sake of your fellow Paladins just for once, admit that the spec isnt at the same level of a Warrior or Druid. You will have a much easier time that way.

Actually the ones who spill the hate about Protection Paladins are you and those who spill lies, preach false facts about it , spilling false information without Evidence or Sources for their claims and have no experience about how far Paladin Protection can go and be.

You do what? Denigrating Paladins with stuffs you ignore or refuse to believe, only because you have failed to learn how to play better!
Words and words, no sources , no evidence, criticizing only , no helpful ways how to overcome such weakness , preaching how bad Paladin Tank is compare to Warrior Tank etc etc.
It's you who make such drama and hate toward Paladin Protection community , not me , not the one who help them how to improve , if you would follow and learn instead of pretending as an expert ignoring what was told to you , it wouldn't damage the community , it would have given better insight about Paladin Protection.

After @Psojed defeating the other Trolls with facts and evidence regarding Protection Paladins , you came here , attacking me and my ways , preaching everyone how terrible Protection Paladins are compare to Warrior Protection , writing huge wall of text with lies, so i had to answer you with huge wall of text debunking your lies all the time (which you ignore and keep repeating same words you did before) which is causing me stress and pissing me .

I am fully of the opinion that a Protpaladin can work well in raids. But they are NOT the optimal choice for a Maintank, and that is just a fact. You would think 6 years of literally everyone disagreeing with you would be enough to make you at least consider you may be wrong. But I guess thats too much to ask..

Everyone is Optimal if you know how to play and all those who disagreed with me brought 0 evidence,sources,neither they experienced anything about Protection Paladin.

I don't care what haters opinion is , i am just presenting with evidence what i do and proving them wrong , but you are the one who keep living in ignorance and denial , not me, you ignore and deny the proofs i give you , you are the one who cherry pick stuffs in order to confirm your excuses , unfortunately that's it ,i always have to deal with those like you all the time and you are not a first time or first person who come by and spill lies and false information in very creative way and huge wall of text (which i hate to read or reply it , but i have to sometime to fix people from being deceived into lies).

Holy wall of text batman, that is next level dedication.

Ok let's see @killerduki, let's try to recap and not derail:

• You believe paladin is a better choice than warrior for tanking.
• You believe a paladin is as much capable as a warrior for tanking.
• You believe a paladin is just a viable option for tanking with effort and passion.

In what of those options do you see yourself more about paladin tanking?

Hmmmm... some of these videos look familiar. Its as if they have been linked before... Many... many times...

By the https://classic.wowhead.com/item=3786/shiny-dirk of https://classic.wowhead.com/npc=1073/ashlan-stonesmirk, I say ! What's all the yelling about ?!? Don't you rotting https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=16370/maggots dare to say a bad word about Killerduki & Theloras, the last two bastions of light in this world filled with https://classic.wowhead.com/npc=364/slime & https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=17197/maggot-goo !! I'll rip another anus in the warm corpse of the one who dares slander 'em !!!

HE’S BACK!!! Uncle Ganus enters the game.

daisyKutter wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Ok let's see @killerduki, let's try to recap and not derail:

• You believe paladin is a better choice than warrior for tanking.
• You believe a paladin is as much capable as a warrior for tanking.
• You believe a paladin is just a viable option for tanking with effort and passion.

In what of those options do you see yourself more about paladin tanking?

[*]You believe a paladin is as much capable as a warrior for tanking.

I already answered at the very beginning about this : viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1655&p=15712#p15712

I never said "Paladin is best Tank" , i always been telling that All Tanks are equal , but in diverse ways and do the same thing different way only.

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Sure Main Tanking over 13 Years as Protection Paladin,clearing Naxx and AQ40 is never going to make me play with good players , neither over such amount of years Tanking i ever played with Good Players ....

Then how come in absolutely every single video you have ever posted, you play with players that are all complete trash? Having done something does NOT mean you are good at it. Just because something can be done does not mean it's the optimal way to do it.

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Or actually you are the one who insult now and the one who ignore the evidence given.

Ok, so your "evidence" that mobs do 4x the damage in endgame vanilla raiding is by linking a video from a level 35 dungeon where you both use wildly different gear.

And even in that video, the mobs are dealing twice as much damage as in Classic. Which is still pretty damn far from 400% more damage.
But because the discussion is actually about Paladins viability at level 60 and not at leve 35, then please stop trying to derail and troll the thread by linking something that has nothing to do with the discussion at hand, and instead compare taken damage between private servers and vanilla in an actual raid instead.


And this gem is just hillarious:

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Perhaps you speak that for yourself , not for me.

SpoilerShow

I have been doing this way before your private servers comes up and i clearly know what's wrong or right about which part of stuffs.

Congratulations. You proved that you had the game installed in 2005 and that you were capable of finding the screenshot button. Thats literally all it proves. It doesnt prove that you know what you are talking about at all. If any of those screenshots actually showed anything relevant, you would be posting them directly. Not posting a screenshot of the screenshot folder itself.

As a matter of fact, warcraftrealms show you did not even hit level 60 until Burning Crusade. Feel free to prove us wrong and actually post one of those screenshots in that folder. Until then I will assume you being level 60 in Vanilla is yet another lie on top of all the other lies.

http://www.warcraftrealms.com/charsheet/34186679

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Hell yeah , Lay on Hand = 2 minutes duration you are completely safe and have easy time Main Tanking and killing target.

Shield Wall is what ? Few seconds to survive (maybe) Enrage...

Again for the thousands time. Lay on Hands can be cast on other people so Warriors will have both buffs. I apologize if Im breaking any forum rules here, but I suspect Killerduki is actually well below average intelligence as a person as he seems utterly incapable of grasping even the most basic logical connections. If that's not the case, then the only conclusion I can draw is that he's intentionally lying to derail any discussion on Paladin tanking as he actually WANTS people to hate the spec.

I strongly advice whoever is a moderator here to ban the guy, as he contributes absolutely nothing, and will just keep spouting off plain wrong misinformation to the end of days while insulting everyone that dare to disagree with him. No matter how well sourced their arguments are.

Holyfrog wrote: ↑

5 years ago

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Sure Main Tanking over 13 Years as Protection Paladin,clearing Naxx and AQ40 is never going to make me play with good players , neither over such amount of years Tanking i ever played with Good Players ....

Then how come in absolutely every single video you have ever posted, you play with players that are all complete trash? Having done something does NOT mean you are good at it. Just because something can be done does not mean it's the optimal way to do it.

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Or actually you are the one who insult now and the one who ignore the evidence given.

Ok, so your "evidence" that mobs do 4x the damage in endgame vanilla raiding is by linking a video from a level 35 dungeon where you both use wildly different gear.

And even in that video, the mobs are dealing twice as much damage as in Classic. Which is still pretty damn far from 400% more damage.
But because the discussion is actually about Paladins viability at level 60 and not at leve 35, then please stop trying to derail and troll the thread by linking something that has nothing to do with the discussion at hand, and instead compare taken damage between private servers and vanilla in an actual raid instead.


And this gem is just hillarious:

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Perhaps you speak that for yourself , not for me.

SpoilerShow

I have been doing this way before your private servers comes up and i clearly know what's wrong or right about which part of stuffs.

Congratulations. You proved that you had the game installed in 2005 and that you were capable of finding the screenshot button. Thats literally all it proves. It doesnt prove that you know what you are talking about at all. If any of those screenshots actually showed anything relevant, you would be posting them directly. Not posting a screenshot of the screenshot folder itself.

As a matter of fact, warcraftrealms show you did not even hit level 60 until Burning Crusade. Feel free to prove us wrong and actually post one of those screenshots in that folder. Until then I will assume you being level 60 in Vanilla is yet another lie on top of all the other lies.

http://www.warcraftrealms.com/charsheet/34186679

killerduki wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Hell yeah , Lay on Hand = 2 minutes duration you are completely safe and have easy time Main Tanking and killing target.

Shield Wall is what ? Few seconds to survive (maybe) Enrage...

Again for the thousands time. Lay on Hands can be cast on other people so Warriors will have both buffs. I apologize if Im breaking any forum rules here, but I suspect Killerduki is actually well below average intelligence as a person as he seems utterly incapable of grasping even the most basic logical connections. If that's not the case, then the only conclusion I can draw is that he's intentionally lying to derail any discussion on Paladin tanking as he actually WANTS people to hate the spec.

I strongly advice whoever is a moderator here to ban the guy, as he contributes absolutely nothing, and will just keep spouting off plain wrong misinformation to the end of days while insulting everyone that dare to disagree with him. No matter how well sourced their arguments are.

Then how come in absolutely every single video you have ever posted, you play with players that are all complete trash? Having done something does NOT mean you are good at it. Just because something can be done does not mean it's the optimal way to do it.

As i tough , you do cherry pick always in order to bring more and more excuses in order to confirm your lies and false claims.

The Videos was never meant to be to show off how big E_Peen i got and clearing easy using proper and high gear.

The Videos was recorded for educational purposes with Gear pre and current Dungeon/Raid level using terrible Group in order to show in details how fights work as "Hard Mode" , "Long Mode" and what people should do in specific areas and spots.
Such educational purpose makes people much more comfortable to do very same things so much easier with better Group or Gear.
In order to teach something to someone, you show the very weakness with hardest ways , so they can get it so easy.

That's why my VIdeos are/were recorded in such purpose , not to prove that Paladin can Tank , but to show that Paladin can do easy contents as Progression with even terrible players!

Ok, so your "evidence" that mobs do 4x the damage in endgame vanilla raiding is by linking a video from a level 35 dungeon where you both use wildly different gear.

Let us all see your evidence?! What you brought as evidence in order to claim something like this?!


RorrThrall
Published on Nov 3, 2006



No Consumes , No Buffs, No Def Cap , Rend does = 344 damage on a Dungeon 1/2 Geared Warrior (poor gear as Tank).



This is me Tanking in Nostalrius/Elysium/Lighthope



Shit tons of Consumes , Lots Buffs , No Def Cap , Greater Stoneshield Potion used for extra Armor, Rend does = 1033 damage on a Pre Raid Gear.

Nothing more than a Pure Evidence given.

So far you criticize it and yet nothing from you so far , no evidence you gave at all.

344 x 3 = 1032 = evidence that 3 times higher Physical damage than Original Vanilla Pservers are doing.

And even in that video, the mobs are dealing twice as much damage as in Classic. Which is still pretty damn far from 400% more damage.
But because the discussion is actually about Paladins viability at level 60 and not at leve 35, then please stop trying to derail and troll the thread by linking something that has nothing to do with the discussion at hand, and instead compare taken damage between private servers and vanilla in an actual raid instead.

And that's what you got already, Repeating , because you are good at Ignorance and Denial :

Let us all see your evidence?! What you brought as evidence in order to claim something like this?!


RorrThrall
Published on Nov 3, 2006



No Consumes , No Buffs, No Def Cap , Rend does = 344 damage on a Dungeon 1/2 Geared Warrior (poor gear as Tank).



This is me Tanking in Nostalrius/Elysium/Lighthope



Shit tons of Consumes , Lots Buffs , No Def Cap , Greater Stoneshield Potion used for extra Armor, Rend does = 1033 damage on a Pre Raid Gear.

Nothing more than a Pure Evidence given.

So far you criticize it and yet nothing from you so far , no evidence you gave at all.

344 x 3 = 1032 = evidence that 3 times higher Physical damage than Original Vanilla Pservers are doing.

Congratulations. You proved that you had the game installed in 2005 and that you were capable of finding the screenshot button. Thats literally all it proves. It doesnt prove that you know what you are talking about at all. If any of those screenshots actually showed anything relevant, you would be posting them directly. Not posting a screenshot of the screenshot folder itself.

And yet you still cherry pick again . You told that i didn't play back in 2005/2006 and that i talk about Private Servers, i have shown you evidence that i played in 2005/2006 and did this already god know how many times.

What evidence you brought so far?! I see no evidence from you , only words and criticizing without sources to confirm your claims!

As a matter of fact, warcraftrealms show you did not even hit level 60 until Burning Crusade. Feel free to prove us wrong and actually post one of those screenshots in that folder. Until then I will assume you being level 60 in Vanilla is yet another lie on top of all the other lies.

Your Warcraftrealm shows that i began to play Jul 15, 06 , but my screenshots shows that i began to play 15th August 2006.

You still base your assumptions on nonsense , yet again you try to cherry pick more and more hair from the balls in order to "pretend" that you are right and i am wrong , you would go so far that you will also ask me to invent Time Machine and move back in times....

It's hilarious how far your excuses are going to be...

Again for the thousands time. Lay on Hands can be cast on other people so Warriors will have both buffs.

For few seconds , barely enrage time surviving , he will have that Shield Wall on top of the Lay on Hand, but then what? Warrior without CD.
Paladin Improved Lay on Hand can be used on ANYONE + 2 minutes duration + Huge amount of threat + Regenerating mana if Target is under 20%.

I never said that you can't use both as Warrior , but i been always telling that Extra Paladin Tank using his Def CD > Extra Warrior Tank using his Def CD.

Paladin Imp LoH is better than Warrior Shield Wall is what i always been telling ,you do ignore that.

I apologize if Im breaking any forum rules here, but I suspect Killerduki is actually well below average intelligence as a person as he seems utterly incapable of grasping even the most basic logical connections. If that's not the case, then the only conclusion I can draw is that he's intentionally lying to derail any discussion on Paladin tanking as he actually WANTS people to hate the spec.

Right here, everyone can clearly see who is lying , you are the one who intentionally trying to lie all the time.

I give sources, evidence , you give nothing = words and cherry picking stuffs for more excuses all the time, you dig very deep to the throat of every evidence presented , just in order to hope that you can be possibly right at whatever you are wrong.

I strongly advice whoever is a moderator here to ban the guy, as he contributes absolutely nothing, and will just keep spouting off plain wrong misinformation to the end of days while insulting everyone that dare to disagree with him. No matter how well sourced their arguments are.

Perhaps you are speaking this for yourself.

The one who insulted right now was you , the one who spout wrong misinformation, lies and contribute nothing right now is you.

You bring no evidence for anything you say = no sources, no videos , no screenshots = wrong information spouting using words and only words.

Therefore you are asking for Censoring those who provide evidence which is opposite of your personal believes .

We are less than 4 weeks away from Classic and Duki has said he will be running his own guild AND prot tanking. He has a youtube channel and I assume (due to his love for linking videos) that he will be producing some content. We will finally get to put an end to this debate. Lets see how fast Dukis guild can progress with a fresh 60 paladin. Lets see some encounters. He has painted a pretty glowing picture for prot pallies, I cant wait to see if he can deliver.

For this reason I have temporarily subbed to his youtube channel. I will be updating as often as possible.

My guess is that we see partial videos or none at all. And I would almost guarantee that we dont get an uncut version of MC. Certainly not during progression.