RedridgeGnoll wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Imagine if doing Battlegrounds gave no rewards.

But they do give rewards? WTF are you even going on about? Battlegrounds exist, and are incentivized by offering the highest return of Honor/gear - but can only offer a limited return on interesting gameplay. Once you've done 100 WSGs, you've seen it all. After 100 WPvP fights, you will always still have unique and different encounters. It doesn't need to offer high honor/hour to be fun/enjoyable/worthwhile/emotional rewarding. Battlegrounds get boring, but they have their own offer of high honor/hour.

Battlegrounds exist, they have a purpose and they are utilised as such.

World PvP exists, it has a purpose and it is utilised as such.

I'm not sure the issue here. Are you sure you want to play Classic WoW?

RedridgeGnoll wrote: ↑

5 years ago

The Battleground system makes World PvP honor grinding worthless? Are you not aware of this?

Not entirely. Some players on private servers would ask their friends to queue them up while they camped certain populated areas/flight masters. But I guess you wouldn't know that since it's clear to everyone here all you know about PvP is probably coming from Reddit and the game manual.

It's like saying driving cars defeats the purpose of walking to work. No - it doesn't, they're two fucking different things. Sure that cars are going to get you to work a lot faster than walking there, but there's a fuckload of things you can do while walking and it's not the government's business to give you incentives to use your two feet to go ahead and get around places.

RedridgeGnoll wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Once players stop getting reward for doing World PvP it happens less and less.

It's the same fucking thing with dungeons, raids, BGs and so forth.

RedridgeGnoll wrote: ↑

5 years ago

When Phase 3 happens World PvP honor grinding is irrelevant.

Yes, but that doesn't mean that World PvP becomes irrelevant. Please get it out of your retail-minded head that there needs to be an incentive for every stupid thing that players want to do out in the world. I have hundreds of people who can tell you otherwise.

RedridgeGnoll wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Classic WoW is about rewarding players for being in the open world.

It's not just about that but it even so it does this by rewarding those with gathering professions who can gather rare materials, it rewards those who are bold enough to venture and quest in certain dangerous/populated areas, it rewards those who can group up and deny the enemy faction access to certain rewards etc. You still have to fucking walk your ass to raids and instances. And get buffs to along with them. There's plenty of rewards out in the open world.

RedridgeGnoll wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Phase 3 will involves Premade groups stomping randoms in crossrealm battlegrounds all day. They won't even bother to leave the Capital Cities, for fear they might miss a battleground queue pop. Do you understand that once many players reach rank 10 or 11 their progression ends unless they are in some premade clique.

I don't give a fuck about battlegrounds, but if I did I would probably look into becoming a better player at PvP and perhaps joining these premade groups instead of crying like a retail fanboy for Ashran on Classic WoW pretending it's not about me being too scared/busy/unskilled etc. to join the rank grind but also wanting to be rewarded for doing PvP on my own terms, for gathering flowes and not having to face an equal number of players who might be better than me.

RedridgeGnoll wrote: ↑

5 years ago

I am suggesting adding a second honor system. One that is only for World PvP. What are the downsides? Nobody has answered this.

Just a few reasons off the top of my head.

No changes
We don't want changes to the original game. You can keep your fucking Ashrans and loot incentives for every stupid fucking thing casuals do in retail. The purpose of Classic WoW isn't to cater to casuals, it's to recreate the game as it was in patch 1.12 to the best of their ability. For everything else there are private servers.

Bad philosophy
We don't need more incentives to go out and do every single thing in this game. This sort of philosophy is something which contributed to the state of how World of Warcraft is today.

Unforeseen impact
Adding any "incentives" have the potential of impacting other areas of the game, PvE in particular. Items you can add can either upset the already established progression of items ("why should I bother with MC and BWL when I can just do Ashran for 30 minutes and get my epics") or even simplify certain encounters in PvE ("yeah it's so much easier to tank Sapphiron with that shield you get from Ashran, thank gods"). I can't even begin to think of potential ramifications in PvP.

Unintended consequences
Just like with Ashran, which started out from a simple and similar idea of throwing incentives for players to engage in some World-PvP, any stupid thing you've proposed so far would backfire if the incentive was high enough.

See, with Ashran, there were two types of groups/premades you could quickly get into - the ones who were farming the events for Honor, and they would unequivocally avoid the enemy faction entirely and just do chests/events/all these stupid thing you've proposed yourself - and the ones who were farming players for titles, and they would unequivocally seek out the enemy faction and do their best to camp/tag/kill as many.

No, it looked nothing like you'd imagine, it wasn't good World-PvP, everyone hated Ashran and everyone thought Ashran was shit. That's why you don't see it in the game anymore.

@RedridgeGnoll The thing you have to understand is, even if you're idea is absolutely perfect in terms of improving the PvP system for Classic, people still don't want it.

The people who genuinely want to get to rank 14 will get it. The people who are only interested in getting it won't get it. That's how the game is, how it was, and how people want it to be.

The PVE equivalent is like getting Naxx weapons or getting Atiesh, it's not supposed to be easy

@Nymis explains this better than I can, it's a good summary of why this is a retarded idea. OP has this retarded idea that players will go out into his outdoor wonderland and play by his ideas and not just exploit the path of least resistance.

> There will be air drops and special chests and shit

Then players will ignore each other and your PvP zone becomes a game of people ignoring each other for chests

> Then the air drops and chests won't be worth anything

Then why are they there

> Players will decide to not farm the most efficient method of gathering honor points

No, they're going to camp whatever gains the most honor points and all other systems become invalid.

> But you can still do PvP content that isn't the most efficient

I feel like we're getting somewhere now. Yes, you absolutely can just go outside and PvP. We don't need retarded retail ideas dumped into classic so you can have an easier time getting gear you didn't earn.

But if we are entertaining retarded ideas, then I think this 'I want top rank PvP gear but I don't want to put in the work so I want an easier way to get it' idea could be expanded.

Are you aware that PvE content fails to grant PvP rewards? 40 man PvE RAID content makes it too hard to grind honor points. Why not add PvP nodes in dungeons and raids? Enemy mobs and bosses in dungeons and raids could drop 'PvP supplies' that you cash in back in town for some sweet honor points.

Are you aware that spending time levelling your professions steals time away from getting PvP rewards? Perhaps every profession level point should also reward honor points. The faction leader could send you participation trophies in the mail for 'strengthening the faction', which could be cashed in back in town for some of dat dere sweet sweet PvP participation points.

Are you aware that taking flight paths steals valuable time away from grinding sweet sweet PvP rewards? Perhaps every time you land, your character could be rewarded with a full PvP rank for participating in the flight path experience.

Are you aware that spending too much time online is bad for you because you could neglect your personal health and responsibilities? The game could reward you for staying logged out for 20+ hours at a time with honor points for honoring the outside world. This could allow people to reach rank 14 by engaging in real world PvP by rewarding people from competing against other people at work in a job.

@Apol has a good point. Naxx weapons are too hard to get, too. They could be added to those chests in these special PvP zones to reward people for playing them. Wouldn't that be nice? You wouldn't have to waste all that time raiding anymore.

Also the grind of getting rank 14 is the environment of PvP, when you get rank 14 you have finished. That's it there's nothing more

In pve that's the same as finishing Naxx and getting full bis items

Rank 14 is the end goal for pvp, let it stay that way

The thing with Vanilla is/was that there is no need for incentive for every activity - the activity IS the incentive. If I want to go out with a group and do world PvP, I'll go and do just that. I don't need an incentive for that, since that is my idea of fun.

You know 'fun' right? Fun has no stats, no title, no mount. Just the activity itself. This line of reasoning is exactly what lead us to Retail WoW of today where the player character receives a reward for each and every activity.

Exactly @Pluuf

Also @RedridgeGnoll can you please stop making new threads about trying to change the PvP system in a game that was made 15 years ago. Simply put, it won't be changed, the game is finished.

I might be getting toxic but I think I've seen at least 3 of your threads about some new PvP idea and it's really annoying me because there are some really great threads popping up that aren;t being posted in because you are flooding the fresh posts with the same thing over and over again.

This is my final post on one of your PvP threads so don't bother replying because I won't reply on your thread

Can we please stop with all this!
I am getting a headache just reading all this!
Please stop trying to fix something that isnt broken, it worked fine in Vanilla, it will work fine in Classic!

There is nothing wrong with how the honor system is in Vanilla, wanna know why? It's Vanilla, not the best but it works!
And want to know how hard it is to get? Very hard and only 1 maybe 2 dont remember, get it a week? 52 weeks in a year....lets just bump this to 100!
So 100 people on the server will get Rank 14 a year and how many people are on the server? 3000, I really dont know just throwing a number...
Thats a long time for everyone to get rank 14 and if they actually want to go through the grind! So no we dont need more people to get it and no we dont need an alternative to getting it.

And the part that makes me boil is..."im rank 14, I have no reason to pvp or even play wow anymore (I have no incentive to play)"....? Really? Why do people do this grind? Sure for the recognition, but for the gear and weapons, I guess they just put that stuff on their wow mantle and move on....might as well get a t-shirt for getting rank 14 saying "I PvPed Alot" instead of gear and weapons. My friend did this, and sure he took a quick break after because he was burnt, but he came back and still pvped alot, not as much as before but alot! He did the grind to get the weapon to use in raids and completely trash people in the world and battlegrounds

Wow was never about get to your goal and stop playing it was a game to have fun with friends...Need to remember this game is an MMORPG...something modern wow forgot about....sure your playing with people but it seems to play like a single player game than an actual multi-player game. Experience the game with friends and have fun! No one is stopping you for rushing to your goals but the game wasn't designed for that!

I am going to pull an @Apol and bounce!

First of all Ashran is one of the dumbest things ever. I feel badly for anyone who even entered it. I won't even address the 1000 reason why it was stupid. In Retail WoW the best rewards come from doing Arena. Honor gear does not really matter.

One aspect that separates Classic from Retail is the open world. The open world is rewarding in Classic, that is why players venture out of Capital Cities. The release of battlegrounds makes PvP in the open world unrewarding. This has many ramifications on the game. Most players do not play WoW for the sake of "fun", they play to earn rewards.

Comparing my suggestions to what exists in the expansions or Retail is nonsense. The Treasure Chest and Frontier ideas need refining, but you can't justify comparisons to what existed on retail. The reward systems on retail are completely out of wack and have been for a long time. In this thread I was suggesting an alternative way for players to rank up, so they would not be forced to premade battleground nonstop. I do not see how having a separate honor system for World PvP would be bad. Both systems would be competitive and popular, because of the potential rewards. The gear from both systems could have the same stats, but colored differently.

Many posters keep saying that players will choose the path of least resistance to rank up. Having two honor systems means that there is more than one path. Players would have the option to rank up using either system. I don't see the issue with this. Because Classic has only one honor system, players choose the easiest path which is battlegrounds. Having a second honor system fixes that.

RedridgeGnoll wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Do you understand that once many players reach rank 10 or 11 their progression ends unless they are in some premade clique. It is bad design.

Precisely which is the problem here: that their progression caps out, or that they have to socialize?

If you hand out rank 14 to everyone then you'll still have the former problem. If you don't want to socialize you can download BFA.

Lendryn wrote: ↑

5 years ago

RedridgeGnoll wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Do you understand that once many players reach rank 10 or 11 their progression ends unless they are in some premade clique. It is bad design.

Precisely which is the problem here: that their progression caps out, or that they have to socialize?

If you hand out rank 14 to everyone then you'll still have the former problem. If you don't want to socialize you can download BFA.

I am suggesting creating a second honor system for World PvP, so that players can rank up in World PvP. Rank 14 isn't be handed out to anyone, it would be competed over through battlegrounds or World PvP. Right now you are forced to do premade bgs to rank up.

RedridgeGnoll wrote: ↑

5 years ago

I am suggesting creating a second honor system for World PvP, so that players can rank up in World PvP. Rank 14 isn't be handed out to anyone, it would be competed over through battlegrounds or World PvP. Right now you are forced to do premade bgs to rank up.

Yes I understand that. You didn't answer the question — why is it bad that you have to do premade bgs? As it's been said ad nauseam there are still a lot of reasons to do wPvP besides rank 14.

Also if getting rank 14 by wPvP exclusively is all you really want you'll have plenty of time to do that before phase 3.

Lendryn wrote: ↑

5 years ago

RedridgeGnoll wrote: ↑

5 years ago

I am suggesting creating a second honor system for World PvP, so that players can rank up in World PvP. Rank 14 isn't be handed out to anyone, it would be competed over through battlegrounds or World PvP. Right now you are forced to do premade bgs to rank up.

Yes I understand that. You didn't answer the question — why is it bad that you have to do premade bgs? As it's been said ad nauseam there are still a lot of reasons to do wPvP besides rank 14.

Also if getting rank 14 by wPvP exclusively is all you really want you'll have plenty of time to do that before phase 3.

I am saying that why not have more than one option for ranking up? My criticism of premade battlegroround groups is that they can be exclusive and known to exploit. That is part of Classic WoW. I understand that. However, so was ranking up in World PvP. The release of BGs makes ranking up in World PvP unviable, which is why I am suggesting having two honor systems. Players would have more options for ranking up. Both systems would be competitive and time consuming. You have to remember that most players are not realistically striving for Rank 14, however they do want some rewards. The issue is that battlegrounds become the only means to achieve rewards in an MMO that is regarded for being open world. The addition of Battlegrounds were necessary, because of the nature of World PvP. However, both systems could exist together, giving players the choice to rank up doing either one.

Killing a player in the open world and earning a meaningless honor reward is literally what Retail is.

RedridgeGnoll wrote: ↑

5 years ago

I do not see how having a separate honor system for World PvP would be bad. Both systems would be competitive and popular, because of the potential rewards. The gear from both systems could have the same stats, but colored differently.

u wot m8

> there should be two separate honor point systems for battlegrounds vs world pvp
> the rewards are the same but colored different
> players won't determine which one is more efficient and ignore the lesser option for some reason

The only people who care about how many points they score are people trying to push for high ranks. Those people are going to camp whatever is the most efficient. Either battlegrounds die off or outdoors dies off. If they don't care what is the most efficient, then this solves nothing because you can already just go outside and PvP.

RedridgeGnoll wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Because Classic has only one honor system, players choose the easiest path which is battlegrounds. Having a second honor system fixes that.

No it doesn't.

Which is funny because you even acknowledge that players will just select the easiest path, whatever that is. If this retarded fortnite zone outside becomes more efficient than battlegrounds, then battlegrounds die off. If it fails to be more efficient than battlegrounds, these fortnite zones remain irrelevant.

Failure #1: Separate honor point systems makes the situation even worse. At least right now you can go into a battleground or you can go outside. All PvP activity throws points into the same pool. If each zone yields special snowflake points that are specific to the battleground or outside area, then a player is locked to farming one or the other. A player can't mix and match because the participation trophy points are collected into different pots. Spending some time in battlegrounds and the other time in these retarded outdoor fortnite zones is inefficient because the points scored go into different places, cutting the efficiency in half.

Failure #2: Unless two systems are identical, one will be more efficient than the other. With identical rewards but separate points systems between the two, there is no spending time on both systems. All players who care about the system in the first place will use the more efficient system and ignore the less efficient system. It's a binary decision, and this solves nothing.

> but you can totally do the less efficient route, you damn try-hard

Yes. Yes you can. You already can, without making any changes. Just go outside and do your PvP.

This idea remains retarded and is getting worse with time.

Pippina wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Every Post you ever made in Barrens

I don't know where you came from but please never leave!

How many times do I have to explain this concept?

If there are two honor systems, then there is no fixed path of least resistance. When one system has more competition, the other system becomes the path of least resistance. It goes back and forth. If Premade Battlegrounds are giving the best honor, but eventually become too saturated or competitive, then grinding honor through World PvP becomes the fastest method. Vice versa.

The point you fail to realize is that most players are not grinding Rank 14. Not everyone can even achieve the top ranks, because of how the system works. The system is not based on cumulative honor, ir is based on how much honor a player esrns relative to others. If most everyone is doing battlegrounds, then there are fewer players and competition for rankinf up in World PvP. As long as both battlegrounds and world pvp allow for players to unlock gear, then both systems would be popular.

Let me explain how it works in Classic. Crossrealm Battlegrounds make ranking up in World PvP unviable. There is no second option and a defining aspect of the game becomes trivialized.

Nyxt wrote: ↑

5 years ago

I don't know where you came from but please never leave!

I just come to shitpost. This thread is stupid but at least gives us all something to argue about while we wait for August 26th.

RedridgeGnoll wrote: ↑

5 years ago

How many times do I have to explain this concept?

Keep going until it sinks in that you're not solving anything.

RedridgeGnoll wrote: ↑

5 years ago

If there are two honor systems, then there is no fixed path of least resistance. When one system has more competition, the other system becomes the path of least resistance. It goes back and forth. If Premade Battlegrounds are giving the best honor, but eventually become too saturated or competitive, then grinding honor through World PvP becomes the fastest method. Vice versa.

You just said you wanted separate honor point systems with differently colored identical gear. It won't matter which one is busier because a player is only contributing to one system or the other. A player making a bunch of progress in one points system isn't going to jump ship and start trying the other one just because there's less people in that pool. You're just spawning a second parallel system that does the same thing as the first with the same rewards. Players will play the efficient one and ignore the less efficient one, changing nothing.

RedridgeGnoll wrote: ↑

5 years ago

There is no second option and a defining aspect of the game becomes trivialized.

There is a second option. Do the less efficient route and play outside.

It's no different than creating an entirely separate parallel PvP system with identical different colored gear. If the less efficient outdoor PvP is considered not a second option in your eyes, then neither is the lesser of the two parallel PvP systems with different honor points and identical gear.

Do you even understand the issue? Ranking up doing World PvP once Crossrealm battlegrounds are released is not viable. Killing an enemy in World PvP gives an insignificant reward. Players PvP primarily for rewards. Part of the reason world pvp died was because it was unrewarding.

It does matter which one is busier or competitive. If most everyone is farming honor doing battlegrounds, then that means there are less players to compete with in World PvP. If everyone on your server was earning honor from battlegrounds except for 20 players who earned honor through World PvP, then you would have far fewer players to compete with for honor ranks in World PvP. When one system is more competitive, then the other system becomes the path of least resistance.

If there are two honor systems, why would players only choose to do one? One system would always be less competitive which would incentivize players to do it. As long as both systems allowed for progression, then players would always have an option between the two. In Classic there is no option. You do crossrealm battlegrounds or you basically don't rank up.

Do you understand how long it is supposed to take to achieve high PvP ranks? If there are separate parallel systems with points going into different pools, and a player splits time between the two depending on how many kids are in the pool that day then they will never achieve a high rank in either of the parallel and separate systems. Only one system will be viable.

And where is the concern for all the content that is no longer viable once a player reaches 60? Where is the concern that level 60 players no longer grind the Deadmines? Would you also advocate for level scaling so you can go wherever you want and not be confined to the appropriate level content?

Pippina wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Do you understand how long it is supposed to take to achieve high PvP ranks? If there are separate parallel systems with points going into different pools, and a player splits time between the two depending on how many kids are in the pool that day then they will never achieve a high rank in either of the parallel and separate systems. Only one system will be viable.

Both systems are viable, because they are unrelated to eachother. Players earning honor in battlegrounds are not competing with players earning honor in world pvp. Players could choose which system to focus on, and high rankings would be attainable in both. If one system is more saturated or competitive, then that means that the other system would be easier to achieve high ranks in. As long as both systems allow for players to rank up, then they will both be popular.

Pippina wrote: ↑

5 years ago

And where is the concern for all the content that is no longer viable once a player reaches 60? Where is the concern that level 60 players no longer grind the Deadmines? Would you also advocate for level scaling so you can go wherever you want and not be confined to the appropriate level content?

World PvP is an aspect of level 60. Deadmines is not. It is a low level dungeon. The issue is that World PvP in Classic no longer gives enough if a reward once battlegrounds are released. Why do you think I post all these topics? Most players do activites in WoW for the rewards. You wouldn't see players in 40 man raids or premade battlegrounds if not for the potential rewards.