Hey Cysthen. Great post. One thing I want to point out though.
This is not really true. While you are right that Hunter's have a slightly higher uptime on Nightfall (45% instead of 40% like a Retpala has).. Well.. Good luck finding a Hunter that actually want to sit and melee every raid and get passed up on every piece of ranged loot to the other Hunters because of it.Cysthen wrote: ↑5 years agoThat and you won't have a Retribution Paladin for Sanctity Aura. Why? Because the class with the highest Nightfall Uptime is Hunter and believe it or not they're the best for that because they bring Trueshot Aura and can spam Wingclip (and Tranq Shot so you have to run 2 Hunters anyway). Don't believe me? Check out my video of me doing it on Nostalrius.
Not going to happen.
The highest Nightfall uptime would be a Fury Warrior btw, with roughly 50%. But again, no Fury is going to be swinging it which usually means the person that swing a Nightfall in a raid is one of the offtank Warriors. And without the crit gear to maintain Flurry and generate rage enough to spam Hamstring, they are not nearly as effective as a Retpala.
Personally I dont have a problem with a Retpala in raids. If the Paladin player understands how to play into the support role and has a Nightfall and Annihilator, maintain buffs, cleanse, bops, has improved lay on hands, and is willing to farm Manual Crowd Pummelers for DPS then they can be a good asset to a raiding guild. Especially because their preferred gear for DPS will be Full T2 up until they can get the 2.5 Avenger set, which means you have one less player in the raid to share gear with. Which is a huge advantage to a guild.
The issue is more that most Paladins dont want to put in the effort required, but they are by no means a wasted slots imo.
Theres only 2 Hunters. Trust me they won't be upset losing any ranged loot because they won't be losing any ranged loot. If anything it helps them get more loot.
For example me getting Quickstrike Ring on my Hunter:
It is true and Melee Hunters do more DPS than Ranged Hunters in a group with 12+ Casters with Bloodvine+ Gear. Which during BWL+ Progression is every Raid.
I didn't bother reading the rest of your Ret Paladin supporting post because you said I was wrong but then said Hunters have more uptime.
That was all I needed to read.
That and your uptime percentages are wrong and guess's at best. Hunters have a Spammable Global Ability and Paladins don't so it's significantly more uptime.
I saw you mention Fury Warrior uptime. It is true that it's the fastest but that requires a Warrior with Flurry to spam Hamstring. With that said a regular Fury Warrior Dual Wielding will out dps regular Ranged Hunters and for that reason alone a Hunter is the best class for the job.
^FixedHolyfrog wrote: ↑5 years agoBut again, no Fury is going to be swinging it which usually means the person that swing a Nightfall in a raid is one of the offtank Warriors. And without the crit gear to maintain Flurry and generate rage enough to spam Hamstring, they are not nearly as effective as a **Melee Hunter**
If you can find me a Ret Paladin that out dps's Fury Warriors in Single Target DPS I might change my mind but you won't because BiS Fury Warriors are commonly the Highest DPS in the game.
Also full Tier 2 isn't actually a good Ret Set (for PVE that is) they're better off using items like Lionheart Helm and Titanic Leggings to DPS. As well as using Seal of Command, which defeats the purpose of using a Nightfall all together.
I don't mind having a dedicated Ret Paladin in a Raid it's just I don't believe they deserve to be in the whole Nightfall argument. It might be a good BiS Preraid Weapon for them but they're better off equipping an upgrade and using Seal of Command. Especially if there are going to be Hunters using it anyway.
I admire your persistence @Holyfrog to play a class I absolutely love but there are facts that one must take a sit back and respect. I'm not trying to sit here and say you can't clear every Raid with a Ret Paladin in the group. I'm just saying it's obviously not optimal.
Some of those crazy wild fantasy's are possible if an entirely decked out BiS group wants to do it just to do it, but they're still crazy wild fantasy's.
| EU-PvE | English Speaking | Alliance | GMT+1 | Family & Work friendly | Mid-Core]
I'm not sure what bad blood has existed all these years between all of these prot pallies, but I am so glad that it spilled onto these forums. Some much needed spice. I grin each and everytime I see this thread jump back up to the top.
2000 IQg0bledyg00k wrote: ↑5 years agoNever making a single investment again until I 100% know it pays off.
Also no disrespect to the guide posted earlier with all of the spell damage and stuff but I believe it's a Tanks number one job to take the least amount of damage as possible.
I've healed these so called Spell Damage Paladin Tanks on a Tier 2 Resto Druid with Rejuv Gem and trust me it isn't fun.
It might feel okay if you're the one doing it and you happen to pull it off but there's a right way and a wrong way to do things.
The right way will always be using consumables over trading talents or gear for your convenience otherwise it's the Raid who's really going to suffer.
If you can hold threat in full tank gear (including a tank Weapon for example Blackguard with 15 Agility) using consumables then you absolutely should. There's no excuse, you're not going to impress anybody using a Sageblade.
@Stfuppercut Yeah the bad blood is real, I was trying to set a good realistic image for them doing it back in 2010 and Killerduki spammed my guide with all this bullshit about spell damage weapons and how I was doing it wrong, except I was doing it with 2% more avoidance successfully so I'm pretty sure he's wrong.
I'll try to get a real guide out for you guys pretty soon, one that has heal offsets which is more true to the whole experience in being in a 40man Raiding Guild.
As I've said before I wanted to make a website for it so I won't be posting the whole thing anywhere anytime soon.
In fact here's a teaser. I'm fully prepared to Copyright this when I am done. This is only 1/4th of the Guide. I have a Leveling Guide, a Profession Guide, a Dungeon/Raiding Guide with tips for every encounter for example dropping Divine Protection to get rid of Conflag and Solo Tanking Drakkisath in UBRS, including the stuff that should be obvious like HEALING on fights like Twin Emps, C'thun, Chromaggus etc. There's a lot of fights you need to Heal. As well as a Frequently asked Questions section.
Note: This was literally 1 of 4 Text Documents off my computer and has no pictures and is a rough draft. Thank you for understanding.
Edit: I've taken my Guide down as in trying to reserve it for when the times right.
I have no idea if I offended you somehow but there's no need to respond so agressively. You said you were getting married (congratulations btw) so, can I assume its been a while since you did serious endgame raiding?
Is it possible you are just a little out of the loop these days and that not everything that held true when you raided still hold true?
I would never say people should play Ret in the most hardcore guilds. But this is the minority of guilds. For the large majority of guild the reality is they will not have 40 dedicated players who all undertand their class in detail. A Retpala if played properly absolutely can fit into a raid and even compete with other classes.Cysthen wrote: ↑5 years agoI didn't bother reading the rest of your Ret Paladin supporting post because you said I was wrong but then said Hunters have more uptime.
That was all I needed to read.^FixedHolyfrog wrote: ↑5 years agoBut again, no Fury is going to be swinging it which usually means the person that swing a Nightfall in a raid is one of the offtank Warriors. And without the crit gear to maintain Flurry and generate rage enough to spam Hamstring, they are not nearly as effective as a **Melee Hunter**
If you can find me a Ret Paladin that out dps's Fury Warriors in Single Target DPS I might change my mind but you won't because BiS Fury Warriors are commonly the Highest DPS in the game.
Also full Tier 2 isn't actually a good Ret Set (for PVE that is) they're better off using items like Lionheart Helm and Titanic Leggings to DPS. As well as using Seal of Command, which defeats the purpose of using a Nightfall all together.
I don't mind having a dedicated Ret Paladin in a Raid it's just I don't believe they deserve to be in the whole Nightfall argument. It might be a good BiS Preraid Weapon for them but they're better off equipping an upgrade and using Seal of Command. Especially if there are going to be Hunters using it anyway.
I admire your persistence @Holyfrog to play a class I absolutely love but there are facts that one must take a sit back and respect. I'm not trying to sit here and say you can't clear every Raid with a Ret Paladin in the group. I'm just saying it's obviously not optimal.
Some of those crazy wild fantasy's are possible if an entirely decked out BiS group wants to do it just to do it, but they're still crazy wild fantasy's.
Actually, T2 is better than all of those other items. Attackpower Command builds are yesterdays news. There's been quite a revolution in the way we approach Retpaladin right now. Instead of trying to stack melee stats to boost autoattack and Seal of Command, we instead opt to build around Spellpower, Seal of Righteousness and procs like Shadow Oil in what has been called the Spelladin build.Also full Tier 2 isn't actually a good Ret Set (for PVE that is) they're better off using items like Lionheart Helm and Titanic Leggings to DPS. As well as using Seal of Command, which defeats the purpose of using a Nightfall all together.
Because Spellpower boost all of your damage, and not just auto and seal, if you were to attack fast enough the spellpower easily outpace the physical attacks. The main weapon of choice is a Manual Crowd Pummeler, but you also can use fast weapons like Blade of Hanna, Flurry Axe or Ironfoe if you have the dedication to farm that.
If you want to about the specifics of the build itself, I strongly suggest you join our Discord and have a chat :)
https://discord.gg/G5HTYh5
Bottom line, the advantages of running a Spelladin build for raid is almost complete lack of competition for gear since you will be using T2 and mostly offpieces with either low or no competition, you bring decent Nightfall uptime, additional BoP/Imp LoH, Cleanse and Blessings, and on fights where Nightfall is not needed you can actually contribute substantially to DPS. Because Retribution is a DPS spec, there's no huge drain on a raid to have one, as DPS are never a critical role for the raid as long as they can provide the required DPS to kill bosses on time. Something a Ret is perfectly capable of doing.
I realize this build is really unknown to most. Thats because it did not even exists until half a year ago. But over the past few months, some very dedicated theorycrafters have brought the build to life, while myself and other Retpaladins have tested the build in live raids where it performed beyond expectation.
Because I dont just expect anyone to take my word for it, knowing how strong the Stigma against Retpaladins are. Here's a Paladin named Mourtagh who tried the build out in Naxx. Look at the absolutely mind blowing difference in DPS between this and a more traditional Attackpower Retribution build.
Accounting for the differences between private server and what we have seen on the Beta, the Spelladin build will still dramatically outperform Attackpower Command based builds.
Forgive me if I made any assumptions about you in my post, but I dont really know you. I have only heard your name mentioned briefly, and I honestly have no idea what your vanilla experience is like and how much you have raided and in which guilds. So when you show up in this thread and act (the way I see it) in a very pretencious and condesending manner I can only wonder if there's some past history here that I am not aware of, that you let spill into this thread.
As you can see in this thread I am no stranger to evidence and sources. I dont have quick access to the uptime spreadsheet right now, but the uptime numbers I gave you are the ones I have been informed were the correct numbers. I always take great care to make sure the information I give out is as accurate as possible, and if I'm wrong, I'd love a source to correct me.That and your uptime percentages are wrong and guess's at best. Hunters have a Spammable Global Ability and Paladins don't so it's significantly more uptime.
If all you are going to do is to state I am wrong, then that's not really any different from what Killerduki is doing, and preventing that was the reason for why I made an account on these forums in the first place.
@Holyfrog No you didn't offend me I just wasn't taking your post about Retribution Paladins seriously because they're typically a joke and have been for years, that and I didn't come to this forum with the intention to talk of Ret Paladins as that's a whole other can of worms. I'm not up to date but I've played Feenix 4 Years, Nostalrius 2 Years, and Elysium for 1 Year.
Got around to reading all of that. I'm aware of such a build and it made sense being better in Naxx considering Exorcism would be in the rotation as well. I wouldn't say "No Competition" on items though as with what you said it's quite obvious wearing Cloth with straight Spell Damage would quickly out way Tier 2 and Tier 2.5. I'm sorry if I was confused before as when you said Ret I assumed someone with a 2-Hander. What you're referring to is more of a Shockadin which was also a somewhat common spec but mostly in PVP in my day.
Funny story that Feenix Server actually had a bug with that Staff from that Searing Gorge quest to light the towers. It was a .5 Weapon Speed so I'm quite aware of the potential damage output abusing Seal of Righteousness.
Glad to see some head way in terms of theory crafting in regards to DPS. I'm not sure if those numbers you're sharing and the spell coefficients will be the same on Classic or not but I'll loosely be following it just to be up to date I guess.
In a way you went on to further prove that Nightfalls really don't belong in the hands of Retribution Paladins so again I'll just say I'm more supportive of a Hunter filling that specific slot. Which also matches up with what I said saying Paladins are better off equipping an upgrade. Be it just a different build entirely.
I have a lot of Raiding experience in Vanilla as those 7 Years I mentioned earlier were all in serious elitist endgame guilds besides Nostalrius but I was a Melee Hunter in a Guild clearing Nefarian every week and had Shadowflame Boots which was all the content that server had to offer sadly.
Before my first server Feenix shut down I was in the guild Full Blown Raids which was an evolution of a guild called Chainpull which I happened to be Co-GM of. Full Blown Raids consisted of pretty much 90% of all Chainpull Members it's just a few Officers had enough of the game nearing the end of the Servers cycle.
I was well known and well respected, the first Paladin on the Server to obtain both Styleen's and Armament Shield Raiding in a Progression Guild as Protection. With both Chainpull and then Full Blown Raids we fully progressed Naxx and got Kel'thuzad to 22% Health in our best attempt.
Granted Feenix was a little different, all bosses had 2x Health and slightly more damage output to compensate for people being better than they were on Retail Vanilla due to more knowledge.
The Devs of Feenix thought it would be funny or perhaps epic who knows to give Kel'thuzad 3x Health instead so he had a total of about 9 Million Health. Only one Guild killed it known as Work in Progress. In fact they made Naxx so hard (Mostly Four Horseman, Gothik, and Saph) that they didn't even release Kel'thuzad for over a year. It was an empty room.
That said 22% was a big deal on that Server, and if I come off as super elitist that is because a lot of the really really early Vanilla Private Server Players played on Feenix and were twice or even three times as elitist to compensate with those numbers.
Feenix was one of those, had to be there kind of experiences. It was more of a Heroic Vanilla Server I guess. Kel'thuzad on that server was one of the only fights I full on respec'd Holy for as everything mattered on that servers version of the boss. You couldn't expect to kill it without all World Buffs and a majority of the Raid alive for Phase 3. It was pretty epic and a fond memory of mine.
Here's a video of the Server first by Work in Progress:
Notice every World Buff in the Game and Soulstone on the entire Raid.
That's the kind of server Feenix was.
In fact that Rogue Vittnet was actually the Rogue Class Lead of Chainpull alongside me, as well a few other characters in that Raid. For example Dotjob was a Holy Paladin named Kolyn in Chainpull and Thorax was the Mage Class Lead of Chainpull. I'm super proud of what they accomplished and even what I accomplished on that server. It was absolutely crazy.
So proud that between that and Nostalrius (I have a Nostalrius Shirt) I feel like I've done enough. I probably won't have the time to play Vanilla the way I did back then ever again. I was younger then and didn't have the priorities and things that I have today in my adult life.
I wouldn't trade it for anything it's just I know myself I'm too hardcore and I couldn't play the game casually so it's better I don't at all. Wouldn't trade it for the world and I'm glad I went as hard as I did back then. I'm still friends with the other Guild Leaders of Chainpull and we casually play games on Steam together. In fact they're actually coming to my Wedding lol.
Regardless I mostly just came here to tell people to use consumables instead of dropping Tank Stats because it's a big pet peeve of mine to see people gimping themselves and that's a common theme that is associated with Paladin Tanks.
P.S. Thanks about me getting Married, it's literally the girl of my dreams that I've crushed on forever and didn't think it was possible. Sometimes it's possible I guess :P
Holy shit, I had no idea that so much work had been done to develop DPS Paladin. Obviously time will tell on how well the proc-based mechanics pan out in Classic as compared to Private Servers, but I'm excited to see such a thing have potential at viability.
Light be with you.
I advice you to check out the Discord really. We get that a LOT. People confusing the spec with Shockadin when the two have nothing in common. Shockadin would be 31 point holy for holy shock for high on demand burst, while Spelladin is more or less the same build as regular PvE Ret with a few talent variations.Cysthen wrote: ↑5 years agoGot around to reading all of that. I'm aware of such a build and it made sense being better in Naxx considering Exorcism would be in the rotation as well. I wouldn't say "No Competition" on items though as with what you said it's quite obvious wearing Cloth with straight Spell Damage would quickly out way Tier 2 and Tier 2.5. I'm sorry if I was confused before as when you said Ret I assumed someone with a 2-Hander. What you're referring to is more of a Shockadin which was also a somewhat common spec but mostly in PVP in my day.
You still wear a twohander. It's just that instead of swinging a slow twohander, you use Manual Crowd Pummeler to deliver as many Seal of Righteousness attacks as possible and increase the number of procs.
If the fight goes on for more than 90 seconds, you switch to a fast onehander, or a fast twohander. What weapon you want to use depend on your overall gear.
I mean, the spec pretty much is no competition. At least when you compare it with AP Ret where you need a ton of Warrior and Rogue gear to DPS. Spelladin need full T2 with offpieces. Trinkets would be things like HoJ, Reed, ZG trinket, Scrolls of Blinding light. All without competition.
You can get the neck from Lucifron, an item I have had no trouble getting as a Paladin in the past, and eventually replace with the AQ20 Spellpower neck which is a quest. Cloak, you can use Sapphiron Drape, easy to get, or Cloak of the Brood Lord (harder, but not impossible) and rings are mostly also items you can get without much competition since you only care about SP and not spellcrit or spellhit. Making Maiden's Circle f.ex an excellent item to use. There's also eventually the Brood of Nozdormu ring which again is a quest and your best in slot forever ring is Wrath of Cenarius, again a quest item.
Once you get 2.5 you can get stuff like Rockfury Bracers (quest), the Spellpower Plate gloves from Viscidus (no competition). You would like a caster belt as well, but T2 is pretty well itemized even if you cant get the raid cloth belts with Spellpower. There's a bunch of other gear I didnt mention to, but the point is you should not have a problem getting a couple caster items every once in a blue moon if your guild value having you show up raid after raid on time.
As a Human in Classic you dont even really need to be 8 points in Protection for 3% hit, so you can even spec into Illumination to quickly step into a healing role at any given time should the need arise, making the spec very versatile and flexible.
I only have one real video using this build, but I think it demonstrates the viability of the spec. In this video I am wearing full T2, with blue item offpieces and some of the quest items mentioned above. I am severely undergeared compared with the rest of the raid, but I still manage just fine to keep up with everyone else on most bosses.
In this raid we also had another Retpaladin running the standard AP Ret build with absolutely Best in Slot gear for the patch. Full 2.5, Dark Edge of Insanity etc. As you can see I am still able to keep up with him on DPS. I dont even have Wrath of Cenarius which would be nearly the same as having a permanent flask of supreme power active as well.
Very nice, and I know I mentioned Shockadin but I didn't quite mean the same spec I only meant gearing in a similar manner.
I'd assume speccing the 8 in Prot for Hit would still be beneficial though as those Spell Pieces you have mentioned don't have physical hit chance and you need to get hits in for Seal of Righteous to register.
It'd be cool to see it with Wrath of Cenarius although we don't know for sure if it procs off Seals. I'm sure for progression gear both Tier 2 and 2.5 are perfectly fine for this build I only meant like the best possible gear might be a combination of Cloth off pieces in Naxx.
Have you ran any tests attacking with a Fishing Rod? I'm pretty sure Fishing Skill is what the hit chance goes off of as I've heard of Feral Druids doing that. I'm not sure what the attack speed is off the top of my head but if it registers as a 2 Hand Weapon perhaps you can drop the Wizard Oil for a Fishing Lure and have Hit cap that way with 0 Hit on your gear, or better yet the Arcanite Fishing Pole has 35 Fishing Skill which is 7% Hit right there and perhaps you can just be happy rocking the 7% Hit with a Wizard Oil.
I'd assume to maximize DPS you'd also want to use Juju Flurry on rotation and perhaps haste to Gloves. Assuming the 8 Spell Damage is better for Helm and Legs than Haste. I'll let you all do that math. I don't care too too much myself as I wasn't ever as interested in Paladin DPS. It is interesting though. Actually if I'm not mistaken I think there's a 5 Fishing Skill to Gloves so with the Arcanite Rod that's Hit cap right there.
Mostly just curious about the Fishing Rod honestly because that'd be hilarious. Anyway enough of that I was just checking in and trying to get people straight on Paladin Tanks. Nice seeing you guys.
@Holyfrog I joined that Discord you can look for me my name is Cysthen. I'm not trying to get too sucked into all this as I'm very busy but I wouldn't mind having some insiders that can keep me informed on how things are working when Classic arrives as I have a very formal guide that might need slight edits depending on such information.
Your posts look amazing , until someone realize that you never made it to even Main Tank any Raid Boss properly , rather you just Offtanked Trash Mobs to the Boss fights and barely made it to Main Tank Broodlord Lashlayer where whole group had to wait for you to make threats before they dps.Cysthen wrote: ↑5 years agoI found that argument earlier hilarious as well, talking about using Judge of Crusader and Judge of Wisdom.
I think these people forget there's a 16 debuff limit and you have to squeeze 40 people on it. Which means you won't be using those spells except for on a handful of adds that perhaps are solo Tanked off to the side.
That and it's a waste of Mana to even use those spells half the time because you need to pull with Judge of Righteous for burst threat. Seal of Righteous > Judge > Seal of Righteous (then you're trying tell me in 10 seconds you're going to do this following shit) > Seal of Crusader > Judge > Seal of Righteous. That is super inefficient and 90% of the time is overkill on threat if you're using Weapon Oil and Elixir.
Maybe if you're off tanking you can start with Crusader but you don't have Taunt so you're kind of just a high threat safety net that might never even get the boss if the Warrior doesn't die, that and you're significantly lowering the DPS of the Raid wasting that debuff slot, on top of being very Mana inefficient when you can just use your Seal 28 seconds before you Judgement again.
If anyone is going to use Judge of Crusader it should be a healer so you're not wasting Mana and even then you're wasting a debuff slot as I already stated.
There are some things that yeah sure maybe you can do them but you're usually better off just using consumables and just dropping a few higher rank Consecrations over using Judge of Crusader because it better suits your Raid. If you're even there to begin with because you're just there to add flavor to the Raid.
Paladin Tanks are those packets you put in Water to flavor them, Warriors are the Water. A lot of people don't like Paladin Tanks because they're watching their sugar intake and want to be healthy. They're nice to have around and make a few encounters fun, maybe even a little faster but it's not healthy farming 18 consumables and Raiding 3 nights a week on top of 20 man's on Weekends. I don't drink much Sugar anymore.
That and you won't have a Retribution Paladin for Sanctity Aura. Why? Because the class with the highest Nightfall Uptime is Hunter and believe it or not they're the best for that because they bring Trueshot Aura and can spam Wingclip (and Tranq Shot so you have to run 2 Hunters anyway). Don't believe me? Check out my video of me doing it on Nostalrius.
If you want to know more about Melee Hunters you can go here:
https://forum.nostalrius.org/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=28163
Flask of Supreme Power for threat testing? You will never use a Flask of Supreme Power for Tanking what the fuck is this you already have less Health than Warriors as it is. It's Flask of Titans only. Ever. Maybe if you're in full BiS in a ZG you can use a Supreme Power but I don't see why you would ever ever do that.
Don't mind Duki you guys he's been like this forever and was actually kind of a meme on that first Server. That's why he's still talking about me all I had to do was Google my name and here he is again, it's a Nightmare. He always used Spell Damage Weapons and always had bad English. He's dedicated sure but he's a meme, he's not a role model, and he's not using a fucking 15 Agility Enchant or a Tank Weapon and has 2% less Avoidance. (and 2000 less Health if he's using Supreme Power, and 10% less Strength from talents which translates to less Block Value).
Have fun healing him guys.
Oh and by the way Duki it's been 9 Years not 14.
P.S. Do any of you guys know a good Website that I can post my new Guide on that will be easy to find and will sticky it? Is this the place to do that?
I can host my own Website and not have to deal with comments or Duki which is my preference as I don't care to deal with him. The only issue is that's 20$ a year and granted yes I could pay that it doesn't seem like the best thing to do.
Taking any suggestions. Thanks in advance for the love everybody. I'd like to thank Furious I'm glad to see my old guide is still around on the internet in some capacity. Keep it real and don't let a Paladin gimping himself using a Spell Damage Weapon and Supreme Power in any of your Raids.
Yeah sure you are telling me not to use Threat Weapon and to prioritize Tank Weapon , tell that to Warriors either !
What your Tank Weapon Quel'Serrar is going to make difference to save you compare to Threat Weapon ?!
Let see : 12 Stamina and 300 Armor. (Def is useless since you are either def cap or not without this weap) .
12 Stamina and 300 Armor versus threat Weapon which is going to save whole Raid keeping aggro on you more efficient and less likely to OOM without using shit tons of Consumes you are Preaching about.
Flask?!
I am looking forward for your Videos Main Tanking these without using ANY Flask or your Shit Tons of consumes that you Preach in your Guide using Pre Raid / ZG /MC and as bonus for you AQ 20 Gear even.
Like Pre Pull cast SoTC , Pre Pull cast Holy Shield , Pull JoTC/Consecration , SoR = drink coffee while keeping aggro.That and it's a waste of Mana to even use those spells half the time because you need to pull with Judge of Righteous for burst threat. Seal of Righteous > Judge > Seal of Righteous (then you're trying tell me in 10 seconds you're going to do this following shit) > Seal of Crusader > Judge > Seal of Righteous. That is super inefficient and 90% of the time is overkill on threat if you're using Weapon Oil and Elixir.
Your JoR/SoR especially YOU not using Spell Damage Weapon/Weapon Enchant/Wizard Oil/Greater arcane Elixir = that's like 170 Threats lesser on a pull (187 threats lesser for Melee,210 threats lesser for Ranges) OR let say even better , that's 50 threats lesser on top of ALL of the Numbers you see if we include Salvation . Good job wiping your raid when some DPS shit over you on the first Fireball.
Or even worse , without JoTC = extra 110 Threats lesser when you use SoR/JoR (123 lesser threats for Melee,140 threats lesser for Ranges) OR let say even better , that's 35 threats lesser on top of ALL of the Numbers you see if we include Salvation. (Perhaps you didn't knew about consequences your rotation goes by)
What you are going to get with 14 Agility Enchant = 0.7% dodge = Congratulation for avoiding 1 out of 130 swings (1 dodged swing out of 4 minutes).Don't mind Duki you guys he's been like this forever and was actually kind of a meme on that first Server. That's why he's still talking about me all I had to do was Google my name and here he is again, it's a Nightmare. He always used Spell Damage Weapons and always had bad English. He's dedicated sure but he's a meme, he's not a role model, and he's not using a fucking 15 Agility Enchant or a Tank Weapon and has 2% less Avoidance. (and 2000 less Health if he's using Supreme Power, and 10% less Strength from talents which translates to less Block Value).
This is how your logic went so hilarious .
Oh i remember you preaching Weapon Swap for Consecrations , Not only that you are wasting 210 threats by not using it for JoR/SoR , you rather using it for Consecration which is going to provide you 48 threats and thus wasting shit lots of Mana for it. (from 48 Conse dmg to 51 conse dmg/tick) .
I wonder where did you got the fact that i am not using 10% str from Talents or you just mouthfeeding shits putting false words and lies to my mouth to this Troll community ?10% less Strength from talents which translates to less Block Value
Well done you Healing as Protection Paladin fights which even Untalented Paladin can do it.including the stuff that should be obvious like HEALING on fights like Twin Emps, C'thun, Chromaggus etc.
I wonder what kind of Expert Protection Paladin you are when you NEVER Main Tanked :
But yeah , "SHIT TONS OF CONSUMES GUYS" and "OFFTANK TRASH" or "REROLL WARRIOR OR PALA HEALER" - ® made by Cystheen .
BTW you never probably knew that Seal of Righteousness also cause Weapon Procs , so your Nightfall Hunter is getting swallowed under wrath hole.
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20761848140
Here is Post about it from Theoloras , i suggest you have some nice education about it when you talk about Nightfall hunter VS Ret/Prot Paladin.
/Activity is Skill
/Skill is Life
/Justice will prevails
Fuck yea baby! We're back in action!!!
2000 IQg0bledyg00k wrote: ↑5 years agoNever making a single investment again until I 100% know it pays off.
Uh oh....
Lvl 60
Lvl 35
MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORE VIDEOS
I did tank quite a lot of those fights you have mentioned it's just it was years ago and I had a bad computer so I didn't record a lot of it. It was 2012. Whatever you say Duki. You know the truth.
Edit: Even if Seal did proc Weapons, it's a 3 Weapon Speed. So that's a hit every 1.5 Seconds. When a Hunter can spam a Global attack every second and attack every 3 Seconds, which is more attacks. I'm sure the Hunter won't be swallowed up. I'm sure you know all about swallowing though, except maybe the truth because you're here preaching Spell Damage makes you better than a Warrior and it doesn't.
Your Videos of you Tanking MC doesn't impress me. I have those as well. Even AoEing all Garr Adds which is infinitely more Impressive then you Main Tanking the Boss. I didn't bother reading your post because I speak English unlike Gibberish.
I apologise for the horrible UI as you can see I fixed it by AQ40. It was an alt at first so I didn't get around to it when I should have and my videos suffered from it. These are from 2011 so have an open mind my computer was shit.
Except 2 BWL , MC ZG and AQ20 Bosses i don't see you personally Main Tanking ANY AQ40 or Naxx Raid Bosses.
All i see there as i already said is :
While you ignored :
"Maexxna" , "Twins" , "Thaddius" or ANY Naxx Boss as Main Tank.killerduki wrote: ↑5 years agoI wonder what kind of Expert Protection Paladin you are when you NEVER Main Tanked :
GCD or let say "Global Cooldown" is actually 1.5 Seconds, so your "Hunter can spam a Global is not Every Second" .
https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Cooldown
Where Paladin having Nightfall hit each 1.5 Seconds is not the same as Hunter hit each 1.5 Seconds.The global cooldown is generally 1.5 seconds for all classes except rogues, Cat Form druids
Hunter won't be even close to the DPS that Paladin is going to deal doing it , the Paladin is going to beat the shit out of Hunter by a HUGE margin regarding DPS and at the same time Proccing Nightfall as Nightfall swinger. Which mean Hunter is way too suboptimal compare to Ret/Prot Paladin regarding Nightfall .
Same as all i see on your Videos is 2 Bosses Tanking in BWL , rest MC/ZG/AQ20 while there is 0 Main Tanking Boss in AQ40 or Naxx .Your Videos of you Tanking MC doesn't impress me. I have those as well. Even AoEing all Garr Adds which is infinitely more Impressive then you Main Tanking the Boss.
All i see you do is Tanking Adds , therefore you preach and tend to be an expert for Paladin Protection.
As i expected , your Ignorance always been imo very high , especially that my English is not that terrible as you try to pretend is , it is quite understandable if you feel like reading it instead of being Ignorant only because i do have a different point of view compare to you.I didn't bother reading your post because I speak English unlike Gibberish.
I am going to pick an example where your Expertise fail terrible , while you are using "Shit tons of consumes" .
Using Shit tons of Consumes + Being OOM + being very low on threat = Inefficient Paladin Tank and Noobish .
Let me analyze why :
1- Salvation = 30% less threat.
2- Spamming Downrank Consecration instead of Prioritising Spamming Judgements of Righteousness on CD which is making you to cause terrible threat and being constantly OOM.
3- Using Shit tons of Consumes for threats while Salvation is used on you.
4- Draining your Mana thru Consecrations leaving you without Mana for more threat compare to how much Judges/Holy Shields you could use within the same amount of Mana and therefore not being OOM or rely heavy on the same consumes.
I don't see there an expert , i see Noob Paladin who believe that you gotta waste all your time farming shit tons Consumes in order to do some easy Low lvl Raid Bosses or Trash Tanking in high lvl Raid.
Irony is : you go for 0.7% Dodge Enchant for Weapon vs 30 Spell Power Weapon = 38 TPS vs 1 Dodged attack each 4 minutes.
Do you know that higher Damage/higher Threat = lesser Heals = Lesser Mana wasted for Healers compare to 1 Dodged attack each 4 minutes ?!
I am afraid you don't think logically about that.
But hell yeah "Tanking Weapon" for 12 Stamina and 300 Armor = 0.1% damage reduction and 120 HP vs Threat Weapon which is going to make the fight much shorter with lesser Healer mana wasting than the 0.1% damage reduction but longer fight.
Where as compensation to your 300 Armor i can simple use Greater Stoneshield Potion and be Armor Cap , so basically your Weapon is ended up worth nothing or perhaps it does worth only on a few fights.
Most importantly is that in Original Classic Mobs and Bosses are going to do 3-4 Times lesser Physical dmg compare to Pservers , so your "Tank Weapon" is basically "noob weapon" for Paladin.
And HELL Yeah , what i have seen on your C'Thun fight was you attacking Boss , while C'Thun is not a fight where you DO Main Tank Boss , rather then just Main Tank big Claws at 2nd Phase only.
I still don't see you Main Tanking AQ40 and Naxx Boss. I don't care about you Tanking Trash Mobs, even a Holy paladin can do that.
/Activity is Skill
/Skill is Life
/Justice will prevails
Prot paladin is fun. I'll be doing it again for classic.
Things to remember as a prot paladin:
-Taunt is for cowards
-Evidence? Don't even know what that is.
-Don't know what you're doing? Wing it.
-Live life fast (and level slow)
-Chug all the mana pots
-Eat all the demonic runes
-Everyone is wrong but you, you keep doing you.
-Have fun, its a game.
Hi @Cysthen ! Nice seeing you here. :)
Man, Prot Paladin's make feral druids look like a bunch of weed smoking chilled out hippies. Our arguments never get this heated haha, we usually understand that we aren't optimal, but can fill a certain position and have a lot of fun in the process.
Lvl 60 Lvl 35
Ohhh man, not again killerduki...
Every time killerduki spawns in a paladin tanking thread, the thread converts in a dumpster fire.
Troll 
Protection 
WarriorEU PvE - Pyrewood Village -
Horde
Better than having idiots who trash talk and preach false info full with lies and brainwash with nonsense words about Paladin Tanking 24/24.daisyKutter wrote: ↑5 years agoOhhh man, not again killerduki...
Every time killerduki spawns in a paladin tanking thread, the thread converts in a dumpster fire.
/Activity is Skill
/Skill is Life
/Justice will prevails
Yeah...Paladins tend to be more...Passionate for say. At least a good chunk of them. And if you claim to be a paladin theorycrafter oh boy. Basically the entity of god. At least their ego says that.
But a lot of it comes from the whole Warrior vs Paladin thing throughout the dawn of time. Warrior players tend to get insecure when they see a paladin having fun so they usually shit talk the paladin and the paladin gets super defensive and tries to shovel it back. Eventually that created a split in the paladin community where we have Warrior loyalist that like being pockethealers and slaves for the warrior overlords and the off-spec community who is extremely defensive and bites back at everyone, even their own, no matter how minor it is.
Druids don't really have to deal with that. Druids wear leafs and stuff on their shoulders and live stress free. Wish I could be a druid but I was born a paladin sadly.
I'm kinda sad to see this dumpster fire spread to barrens chat though. Was hoping it would stay contained in the theorycrafting discords and retail WoW forums. This was like my vacation forum.
It's really unfortunate that people see Paladin players this way. Talk about the few ruining it for the many. Spent so much time here defeating every point Killerduki made only for him to come back and spam the exact same garbage that was already disproved all over again while just completely ignoring the last 12 pages of discussion.
It's insanely annoying, and I hope people are clever enough to just ignore the guy by now because he's really taken a lesson from Aldous Huxley's Brave New World. If people disagree with what you say then rather than reconsider your own position, or make better arguments you just drown them in information to the point where nobody can be bothered to distinguish between true and false anymore.
Because that's exactly what Killerduki is doing. You can pick apart every argument he makes, demonstrate they are wrong using reason, logic and evidence, and he will just ignore anything you say and keep stating the same nonsense over and over until everyone get bored..
Short of just straight up banning people there's unfortunately no real way of preventing this kind of behaviour from just flooding every forum with bad info to the end of days.
I would love for people to try Paladin tanking. I think its a cool class that can do some great things both in and outside raids. But that being said, I will much rather take the position that Paladins are not viable for tanking raids, over letting people think Paladins are just as strong as Warriors only for them to level to 60 and get disappointed and quit the game. Nobody win on this.
Why Duki insist we are the same as Warriors I will never understand. It's demonstrably false. Raids are designed around Warrior tanks. Blizzard didnt sit down when they designed the bosses and carefully considered all the tanking classes and how the encounters would work for them.
Why would they? Horde dont even have Paladin tanks. Designing with Paladin tanks in mind would be stupid.
Just looking at the boss encounters in the game, they are all designed around Warrior threat mechanics. Some bosses mana burn. Plenty of bosses have debuffs that only target mana users. Some have silence effects, and other require taunt swaps. Druids work for the majority of them simply because they have very similar mechanics. Paladins however just falls into this place where they happen to work for a lot of bosses by chance. Not because of deliberate intent on the part of the designers.
What he dont seem to realize is that if he actually wants Paladins to tank in raids, then he needs to be open about the weaknesses of the class and work on how to overcome them. Not antogonize everyone that dont agree 100% with what he's claiming. The community has to stick together. Nobody wins on this constant bickering and fighting over nonsense.
All Killerduki accomplishes is to turn everyone who could have been his allies in fighting the stigma of Protpaladins into enemies, while at the same time creating this image of Protpaladin players as childish bickering morons who should be kept as far away from raids as possible. He's done incredible damage to the perception people have of Protection Paladins, and sadly I dont think he will ever realize.
A wild Killerduki appeared
Forum player used Logical argument
It didn't affect Killerduki
Killerduki used rage
Forum player used Rational reasoning
It doesn't affect Killerduki
Killerduki is raging on...
