Ways to Succeed (earn/keep a core slot) in a Vanilla Hard Core Raiding Guild.

Or, The Many Ways Recruits Disappoint Leadership (when they ignore this advice, or don’t take it seriously)

Foreword: I wrote this advice for new recruits to my own guild, and this advice is targeted at people intending to be core raiders in a hardcore guild, but will be rewarding if followed in any guild environment. I just wanted to share it with the community here, because too many well-intending classic wow players will spend all their time theorycrafting or farming and forget some fundamentals of what it takes to succeed in Vanilla wow. 1. Be social (use voice comms)- Vanilla is a community-based MMO; it is not the soulless Instant Random Queue MMO-Simulator that Retail has become. Not everyone can lurk in voice comms 24/7, but if you want to be a valuable part of a team or even if you just want to foster a healthy team it’s a team effort. The more social you are the better in general things will go for the guild.

2. Be social (get to know each other)-...what?...you just said this...I did, that’s how important it is. But let’s put it a bit more selfish in orientation. In any
situation involving human decision-makers, the more personable, human and real you are to the decision-maker the more likely decision are to go your way.
It’s not that leadership and decision-makers want to be biased, it’s just implicit bias...it’s hard to make a decision incorporating the needs of someone fully
if that person is a near unknown to you just as it’s impossible to completely set aside experience and knowledge of someone you have. This means that the more you talk to leadership the more you and your needs will come to mind when they make decisions that impact you. This completely puts aside the impact of you actually being able to directly voice your opinions, concerns, and who you are to decision-makers.

3. Be social (play together)- What are you a broken record?...no, again, it’s that important this is a social game and it’s designed mostly at the end game around group play...Raids require 40-man coordination, but they also require hundreds of man-hours in team prep, farming, gearing, crafting, etc to do well. If you put in your time helping the group as a team the group will do well. Also, the more enjoyable a group is to be social in the more likely it is to stay together and not fail as people grow too, frustrated, bored, or just completely disinterested.

4. Communicate (be responsible)- Related to being social, but be upfront about what’s going on in-game and IRL as well as your expectations. If you are going to be away for your computer or the game for more than a day or so let leadership know as well as your in-game friends. It's indecent/rude to commit to be part of something then go unresponsive etc...it shows a lack of respect or maturity. I can't imagine joining any organization and committing to it then
ghosting the organization. In short, If you wouldn't do it to an intramural basketball team or a work baseball team you shouldn't do it to a guild.

5. Take an active interest in your own development- This means learning everything you can about your character, it’s class, and its role in the
guild/raids; learn to theorycraft your class and the meta. It also means doing everything you can to improve it outside of guild mandated play. Farm that bis,
farm that rep, level engineering, and once you get good...learn how to be better...learn the “stupid tricks” of your class. Learn to speed run dungeons, and
learn how to best interact with different group comps.

6. Take an active interest in the guild’s development- A large part of this is again being social, but give feedback (respectfully) to leadership. Help with guild farming, goals, etc. Figure out what your guildies need to run for gear and help them. Play as much as you can and don’t do it all selfishly. Do not raid
log as the norm; figure out how you can help out once raids are over & on off days and help.

7. Treat your guild members with the same respect you would any real-world team- In hardcore raiding, you will spend more time with your team than you will in most recreational activities. Many hardcore raiders will spend more time in game than they will in full-time jobs. With that in mind, you must treat it
with the same level of seriousness. If you are the type to no-call, no show to work, or treat your colleagues with disrespect, then you will are likely well-versed in the rewards that behavior will earn you in a hardcore guild.

8. Play as much as you reasonably can, with the majority of the time spent improving your main character- I have often said that Vanilla WoW is
Pay to win, except you pay with hours spent not money, one of the wonderful things about Vanilla wow is that there is generally something you can do in
game to progress. (There is an endpoint, but it’s close to 1 year or more /played game time and thus, is fairly unattainable for non-neets)

9. Take care of your real life- It’s easy to get lost in the World of Warcraft, but many a hardcore raider has disappeared from their guild because they had
to choose between their neglected wife/job/school or their guild. Don’t let it get to this point. Similarly, try not to neglect all physical activity, healthy eating, or sleep.

10. Realize it’s a marathon and be honest with yourself and your guild- If you can’t maintain 20 hours a week for 2 years, you won’t be able to sustain hardcore raiding for the 2-year game life. That’s ok; it’s not for most people. Don’t waste your guild’s time or yours by lying about this. You can still have a meaningful and impactful existence in a hardcore guild as a more social member. You may even enjoy your time more as a casual than pretending you can keep up a raid schedule that your life just won’t allow.

Provide value and you will be valuable. Create a deficit and you will be disposable.

This is all very silly, and written by someone who was in some trash can guild and thought he was hardcore.
There is only one requirement, and that is being competent. Play 99.9% perfectly.
I say that as someone who has world firsts in WoW, as well as grandmaster or equivalent in several games. None of that crap you wrote matters, because it scares away actual hardcore players.

ColdRain wrote: ↑

5 years ago

None of that crap you wrote matters, because it scares away actual hardcore players.

Hardcores are not worried about posts like this because it doesnt apply to us. This "crap" does matter to OP and his guild. The game can be played in many ways. I would not say that OP's advice applies to the community as a whole, but it certainly applies to him and the group of people he wishes to interact with. Which is why I simplified the conversation. Provide value and you will be valuable. Value is completely subjective and will vary drastically between guilds. In OP's guild, value can be delivered with a friendly voice and a sense of comradely. While your value comes exclusively from your throughput in the guilds you wish to participate in. Create a deficit and you will be disposable. In a case like this, your attitude would be unappealing to guilds who are looking to build a community. You would be disposable. In a min/max guild where you are only as valuable as your throughput, you will excell. Your attitude does not matter as much in min/max guilds because you are your number and your number is high. While you and I share a similar mindset to how we prefer to play the game, you shouldn't dismiss the way that OP chooses to play the game.

edit:
I would definitely agree that the title of the topic should be changed as this is less applicable to hardcore players who are striving for throughput, optimization and progression. This is likely due to the varied interpretation of "hardcore" between players. For some players simply reaching 60 and attending raids makes you hardcore. To @ColdRain's point, in a truly hardcore guild the emphasis will primarily be placed on your competence and ability, not your attitude. While attitude will always matter to a certain extent, it is less important in a hardcore guild. Players in these guilds are less concerned with the players they stand beside and more concerned with the progression and the loot. The second a guild regresses or stalls, players leave fast. The community of these guilds is built around success and winning. If a guild starts to shoot ahead in progression, these players flock to the "best guild" because their version of fun is by playing hardcore. If these guilds falter or fail, people leave quickly.

ColdRain wrote: ↑

5 years ago

This is all very silly, and written by someone who was in some trash can guild and thought he was hardcore.
There is only one requirement, and that is being competent. Play 99.9% perfectly.
I say that as someone who has world firsts in WoW, as well as grandmaster or equivalent in several games. None of that crap you wrote matters, because it scares away actual hardcore players.

If you want to define hardcore as the tryhard speed running hardcore private server scene or mythic retail guild hopping, then I guess, but that is not what hardcore vanilla raiding is/was for the greater majority of vanilla wow players. But, beyond that, you are oblivious and threatened by this advice for no reason. Also, your advice is to be competent, pretty much worthless advice and just elitist toxicity.

If you are scared by the call to be social in an mmo, then you think you are hardcore when you are in fact just another neckbeard who defines their self-worth by their ability to know the meta of a video game and play competently when that is only the first ingredient to building and maintaining a successful team.

I've known plenty of people who consider themselves "hardcore" who are socially incompetent and they don't last in raiding guilds. Maybe you had the luck of the things in this list taking care of themselves, but I suspect you've never been a fundamental part of building those "world-first" achievements or you would know that a lot of the people/guilds that try and fail to perform at that level fail because of the things I listed in this advice.

I also noticed that you didn't speak of your achievement during actual vanilla wow, and I suspect you have little to no experience in running or building a guild because the attitude I read in your post I've seen present in the leadership of so many "hardcore guilds" that I've watched collapse in the beginning of aq40 progression in both actual vanilla as well as on private servers.

To get to STFUppercuts point, nowhere in that list did I disparage the value of competency or "striving for throughput, optimization and progression," and those I treated as a given.

In fact, I had an entire point in that list dedicated to that sentiment, "Take an active interest in your own development" as well as a point about the team aspects of vanilla wow.

The difference of opinion on this isn't due to differing definitions of hardcore, but in my advice being targeted at all the things that many self-described "hardcore" players fail at completely. I assumed baseline competency in my advice.

I have had to remove more players who think that being competent is an excuse for raid logging, meter whoring while causing wipes, drama stirring, and being a douche than I've ever had to remove because of a lack of competency.

So, I guess, if you feel like the title of "hardcore" is threatened by advice that can be boiled down to "being competent isn't enough, you have to be respectful, team-oriented, and dedicated," then I hope you find someone much more competent in running a guild and building a team than you appear to be to keep the 40 players together for the long haul, because being competent without also being able to meet the needs my advice covered isn't enough. Of course, I guess you can always guild hop and get there too.

I was also gearing my advice towards guilds that are actual guilds that progress together, not raid teams the form quickly from pregeared players and guild hoppers clear a raid and then move onto the next game.

@Lne that was a great reply to a bad comment, thanks for the good read you have great points in all the things you said

So my experience being a "Hardcore (Server First)" type raider or PVP'er..... be reliable, know your job, execute your job well, and don't be the reason for a wipe. Get back after a wipe quickly, rebuff, get everyone ready to rock and roll; rinse repeat.
- outside of that cycle, it was as toxic and dog-eat-dog as it could be. It was a great time. Sadly due to a high demand job, I couldn't maintain it beyond 2 raid tiers consecutively.

The OP's initial posting; just good "guild" tactics, techniques, and procedures (TTPs) for any imaginable guild. Just remember to have thick skin and choose your battles wisely.

my $0.02

Dolamite wrote: ↑

5 years ago

So my experience being a "Hardcore (Server First)" type raider or PVP'er..... be reliable, know your job, execute your job well, and don't be the reason for a wipe. Get back after a wipe quickly, rebuff, get everyone ready to rock and roll; rinse repeat.
- outside of that cycle, it was as toxic and dog-eat-dog as it could be. It was a great time. Sadly due to a high demand job, I couldn't maintain it beyond 2 raid tiers consecutively.

The OP's initial posting; just good "guild" tactics, techniques, and procedures (TTPs) for any imaginable guild. Just remember to have thick skin and choose your battles wisely.

my $0.02

I would agree with this. OP's post outlines general guild etiquette with an emphasis on items that will be valuable in casual/social guilds.

As for the toxicity in hardcore guilds, youre absolutely right. This has always been my experience and seems to be par for the course in competitive environments. Demand is high and tolerance is low.

While it is easily recognized that toxicity is bred in highly competitive environments, I feel it is rationalizing and making excuses for poor leadership as well as poor behavior to believe that a guild cannot be competitive, hardcore, or successful without being toxic.

The few times I've tolerated toxic players in my raid teams in the name of stronger throughput, I've always regretted it by the end of a raid tier and had to remove them.

If self-proclaimed hardcore players want to accept every troglodyte with a keyboard and a decent understanding of the game into their "hardcore guild" regardless of how awful they are to be around, more power to them, but I'll have much higher standards of conduct for the people I play wow with at a hardcore level.

A lot of toxic leaders try to cloak themselves in the labels of getting things done, but you can have high standards and a low tolerance for avoidable failure without being abusive, dismissive, or a general douche.

Stfuppercut you are right they are items that are valuable in casual guilds/social guilds, but in my experience, they are the reason many of the more hardcore competitive guilds fail after a raid tier or sometimes two.

Lne wrote: ↑

5 years ago

The few times I've tolerated toxic players in my raid teams in the name of stronger throughput, I've always regretted it by the end of a raid tier and had to remove them.

And thus your focus is on the social aspect of the game and not progression above all else.

Lne wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Stfuppercut you are right they are items that are valuable in casual guilds/social guilds, but in my experience, they are the reason many of the more hardcore competitive guilds fail after a raid tier or sometimes two.

So long as a hardcore guild maintains progression, it will yield a high rate of applicants and dedicated raiders. The social aspect of the guild is less important because without success and victory, the players in these guilds vacate anyhow.

To be clear, I don't disagree with the things you value. I also don't agree with the way @ColdRain voiced his opinion. But these will not be the core fundamentals that new recruits need to focus on in a hardcore guild that is focused on progression. Throughput and optimization above all else will be valued by a team of players who are min/maxing. In most cases they wont care what your name is, your favorite color or your raiding history... They dont care if you raided in vanilla or if you are a Cata baby... They don't care if youre above 18 or a 13 year old kid. Unless you are in a position of authority and leadership, they wont even care if you have a mic, and if you do have a mic, dont speak unless spoken to. If you arent calling the strat, be quiet (many hardcore guilds dont give every person voip permission in the raid channel). Can you pull your weight and some? Can you understand instructions? Are you an exceptional player? These are the things that matter in a hardcore guild. A guild hyper focused on performance and progression.

Showup every time. Pull your weight every time. Exceed expectations every time. If you dont, you might get replaced. Conversely, if the guild doesnt lead their team to success, the raiders vacate and find a leader who will deliver success. If a raider feels as though they are outgearing the raid or outperforming the raid, they begin looking for a better guild. This is the hardcore mindset.

This is not the only way to play the game and this experience does not appeal to the majority.

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Lne wrote: ↑

5 years ago

The few times I've tolerated toxic players in my raid teams in the name of stronger throughput, I've always regretted it by the end of a raid tier and had to remove them.

And thus your focus is on the social aspect of the game and not progression above all else.

Lne wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Stfuppercut you are right they are items that are valuable in casual guilds/social guilds, but in my experience, they are the reason many of the more hardcore competitive guilds fail after a raid tier or sometimes two.

So long as a hardcore guild maintains progression, it will yield a high rate of applicants and dedicated raiders. The social aspect of the guild is less important because without success and victory, the players in these guilds vacate anyhow.

To be clear, I don't disagree with the things you value. I also don't agree with the way @ColdRain voiced his opinion. But these will not be the core fundamentals that new recruits need to focus on in a hardcore guild that is focused on progression. Throughput and optimization above all else will be valued by a team of players who are min/maxing. In most cases they wont care what your name is, your favorite color or your raiding history... They dont care if you raided in vanilla or if you are a Cata baby... They don't care if youre above 18 or a 13 year old kid. Unless you are in a position of authority and leadership, they wont even care if you have a mic, and if you do have a mic, dont speak unless spoken to. If you arent calling the strat, be quiet (many hardcore guilds dont give every person voip permission in the raid channel). Can you pull your weight and some? Can you understand instructions? Are you an exceptional player? These are the things that matter in a hardcore guild. A guild hyper focused on performance and progression.
Showup every time. Pull your weight every time. Exceed expectations every time. If you dont, you might get replaced. Conversely, if the guild doesnt lead their team to success, the raiders vacate and find a leader who will deliver success. If a raider feels as though they are outgearing the raid or outperforming the raid, they begin looking for a better guild. This is the hardcore mindset.

This is not the only way to play the game and this experience does not appeal to the majority.

I don't think I can disagree with much of anything you said here beyond the implication that what you describe is the only type of hardcore guild that exists or existed. and as I noted earlier guilds can succeed while maintaining a worthwhile social environment.

I'll never understand playing classic wow in an environment that isn't rewardingly social. I've killed KT in the performance is all that matters environment and after one raid I never played with the group again because without the social environment this game isn't worth playing to me. But some people aim to level from 1 to 60 by killing only boars. To each their own. . ..

Lne wrote: ↑

5 years ago

I don't think I can disagree with much of anything you said here beyond the implication that what you describe is the only type of hardcore guild that exists or existed. and as I noted earlier guilds can succeed while maintaining a worthwhile social environment.

I actually think we share a significant amount of common ground on the topic. The distinction here would be the emphasis that is placed on social etiquette and social behavior in your guild. Of your 10 pieces of advice for new recruits, 6 are based around promoting socialization and proper etiquette, similar to what we would find in a guild that is more of a social/casual guild and 2 pieces of advice (#9 and #10) are not conducive to a hardcore mindset and would not be guiding principles for the hardcore guild or the hardcore player. If you are not able to compete, you are disposable and you are replaced. Real life happens. When it does, you are demoted and replaced. No hard feelings... The raid must go on and the content must be downed. We will not work with your new schedule. We are not interested in a part time raider. You are replaced, best of luck.

Lne wrote: ↑

5 years ago

I'll never understand playing classic wow in an environment that isn't rewardingly social. I've killed KT in the performance is all that matters environment and after one raid I never played with the group again because without the social environment this game isn't worth playing to me. But some people aim to level from 1 to 60 by killing only boars. To each their own. . ..

"To each their own". This is exactly correct. I appreciate that you find value in the game in your own way and honestly admire you, and your guilds core philosophies (you sound like a genuinely nice person and I appreciate your service as a retired vet). The issue here is that they are being mislabeled as "hardcore" when they are quite literally the antithesis to values that would be found in a hardcore raiding atmosphere. This can be misleading for players who are looking for information on how to actually succeed in a hardcore guild. They will prepare their mic, they will open their hearts, fill out their guild app and join the raid expecting a hardcore social experience... They will be greeted with a bunch of sweaty cavemen (me included) screeching at them for not knowing the mechanics to the fight they have never seen. They will fail and be replaced immediately. Your guild is social. You place an emphasis on community. Embrace that label and play for the social experience, because THAT is what makes the game valuable for you and your guild. Just don't misrepresent yourself as a hardcore guild. It will be disappointing for hardcore players who apply to your social guild and it will be disappointing for players who don't know any better to see a guide like this and expect a warm and welcoming atmosphere in the hardcore scene. Let the hardcore scene be what it is... Let them proudly wave their banner and lets define that environment as hardcore, so as not to confuse it with anything else. You should not try to reclaim that title and redefine it. Hardcore is not warm, it is not welcoming, it is not tolerant and it is not a pleasant social experience. Let those players silo themselves and interact with one another under the banner of playing hardcore.

Casual, social, hardcore... We use some of these labels to help draw in a group of individuals who we can relate to and who will blend well together. Use the proper terms when recruiting for and advertising for your guild. If you are primarily looking for social players, don't try to recruit hardcore players because they will be everything you hate. Topic should be "Ways to Succeed in a Vanilla social raiding guild - Be social".

I think you're spot on with most of your analysis @Stfuppercut .

It's different motivations, desires, and styles. It is what it is. We had guys that literally only did guild raids; outside of that they were with their own group of friends/groups. Some even had guild chat off. It is what it is. I'm a glutton for punishment and exist within an environment like this in my profession, so its somewhat normal to me. lol

Dolamite wrote: ↑

5 years ago

I think you're spot on with most of your analysis @Stfuppercut .

It's different motivations, desires, and styles. It is what it is. We had guys that literally only did guild raids; outside of that they were with their own group of friends/groups. Some even had guild chat off. It is what it is. I'm a glutton for punishment and exist within an environment like this in my profession, so its somewhat normal to me. lol

Yea, I agree completely. This is certainly the experience I have had in WoW hardcore guilds. The bond in a hardcore guild is the progression. This is the shared common goal that unites the players. The unity of players exists solely to defeat content. The way to succeed in this environment is to optimize your character and to crush the meters. The primary concern in these guilds is your performance above all else. If you are social, that's a bonus! Dont expect your fellow guildmates to reciprocate, because most wont. If you are a new recruit, keep your head down, perform, and as Dolamite said earlier, dont be the reason for the wipe. If you are consistently causing issues, no amount of socialization will matter. If you are consistently providing good value, poor social behavior will be tolerated in many cases. If something comes up in real life and you need to take a step away from the guild, you will be removed or replaced on the main raid team. If you are having scheduling conflicts and cant meet the raid schedule, you will be removed or replaced from the main raid team.

I can definitely relate to being a glutton for punishment in both the game, and real life =). Different strokes I suppose.

At the risk of being pedantic or argumentative I'm going to try to respond to what you said to highlight why a label of social would be inaccurate for my guild and other highly successful hardcore guilds. Because you have troubled to reply with relatively complete posts, I’ll do my best to address your views completely as well.

I'll also concede that I should have prefaced my advice or titled it such to underline that it's written assuming that the audience is competent players who are "able to compete" and have a schedule that allows for hardcore raiding.

That said, you have written fairly accurate portrayal of the hardcore scene that you are familiar with, but not the only hardcore scene out there—there are two easy examples of well-known hardcore guilds that are relatively nontoxic and have significant social aspects to them. Both Dreamstate & Scuba Cops (at one point, Scuba Cops Orgrimmar) are two guilds that have significant server first accomplishments on pservers and a hardcore mindset. They also both have significant social aspects to their guilds and under the arguments presented above wouldn't qualify as hardcore. Dank Budz Collective is another guild that has had a large degree of success on private servers while remaining pretty social.

Just because you may be antisocial or prefer to raid without getting to know, meeting in real life, and/or wanting to stay together on a server from launch to finish and then move to other servers, doesn't mean that there's not players out there that do. Nor does a guild valuing these things miraculously change it into a social guild.

That aside, maybe I should just label our guild as social or nontoxic hardcore to scare away the autists and neckbeards incapable of maintaining a hardcore mindset and effort level while also fostering an environment that's enjoyable to be in. Or maybe I wrote this advice with exactly that in mind.

Again, though, I don't feel that there is anything wrong with hardcore asocial guilds (outside the inherent social dysfunction and toxicity that tends to be a part of them) you describe, I just know that it is not necessary, and to me, the accomplishments had in that environment ring hollow and unsatisfying.

I also am less impressed by a "hardcore" guild that forms from the remains of guilds that fall apart at the beginning of naxx or aq40 than I am by a guild that stays together from server launch through the end of kt farming or even cross server/expansion accomplishments. Again, to each their own, but in my opinion a raid team isn't worthy of the title guild if it can't survive progression through more than half a raid tier and/or its gear is all from cannibalized guilds that died.

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

5 years ago

I actually think we share a significant amount of common ground on the topic. The distinction here would be the emphasis that is placed on social etiquette and social behavior in your guild.

I emphasize these because hardcore minded people often forget their value or rationalize their complete lack of competency in these areas by pretending that being (or tolerating) toxic asshole is just part of the territory of being hardcore. I also emphasize them because as much as some may pretend they don't matter they can and have killed many hardcore guilds.

I do not believe nor have I argued that they are the foundation to success in hardcore guilds, but I will argue that a guild's leadership (and raiders) ignores them at their peril.

There are some assumptions underlying your belief that the "social aspects" don't matter in hardcore guilds that need to be discussed because assuming that these values don't matter assumes quite a few things that were generally false in vanilla and likely to be false in classic.

(1) Your raid team has something to offer its members that justifies putting up with an environment that is toxic.
Assuming your guild reaches the critical mass where it's killing bosses efficiently and reliably, sure this is likely to happen for a few guilds (even a broken clock is right twice a day), but that's a pretty big assumption for guilds that are not already established, or at least having a pretty significant core to build upon. Also, as discussed throughout this post, it’s likely to be an assumption that fails to last for long as people quickly quit/burn out/etc. after a raid tier or 2, which you reply to above as “perform or you will be replaced” which leads to assumption 2.
(2) There is an unlimited/very healthy pool of raiders willing to join your guild and replace all the people that quit because of personality conflicts etc.
Although this is something that's been present in retail due to server transfers as well as private servers due to extremely large non-vanilla like server populations, This is an assumption that was false in actual vanilla and may be false in classic depending on server size, # of servers, and etc. The “hardcore” guilds described above on my server did not progress farther than my guild nor did any of them continue to exist much into TBC.
(3) The guilds you describe are actually as bereft of social function as you pretend they are. The longer wow has existed the less social you have needed to be, but no matter how you slice it, it’s hard to spend 20 hours plus a week on collaborative activities absent some social function.

They are also assumptions that prove to kill "guilds" as the number of "hardcore" pserver guilds I've watched melt down at either the aq40 level or during early progression in Naxx that then reemerge under different leadership or with different cores (that are conspicuously missing toxic elements or have those toxic players sitting on benches) are enough to show that being toxic isn't a necessary ingredient or byproduct of hardcore raiding.
Stated differently, in my experience what is being presented as the only type of hardcore guild is actually the type of guild that I've seen fall apart repeatedly and rarely make it from a server launch through the end of naxx. To the extent that these "hardcore" players coalesce into a guild made up of the refugees of multiple failed guilds no one can take credit for building those guilds. To me that's not a guild, it's just a short-lived raid team—if your hardcore guilds are dying every raid tier and reforming they aren't actually much of a guild now are they?

Of your 10 pieces of advice for new recruits, 6 are based around promoting socialization and proper etiquette, similar to what we would find in a guild that is more of a social/casual guild and 2 pieces of advice (#9 and #10) are not conducive to a hardcore mindset and would not be guiding principles for the hardcore guild or the hardcore player.

No 9 and 10 aren’t important at all. Remember that when your main tank has to leave because it was a choice between his wife or his guild. Remember that when your best warrior leaves after he’s gotten onslaught girdle and bonereavers edge (or dft, or deoi, or …) and tells you that he’s burnt out. In b4 hardcore players would choose their guild over their wife…so they do, but they die because they neglected their health, or they go to jail because didn’t pay child support. (we’ll just replace them, right, good luck replacing all that gear that unlike in retail takes quite a long time to accumulate).

If you are not able to compete, you are disposable and you are replaced. Real life happens. When it does, you are demoted and replaced. No hard feelings... The raid must go on and the content must be downed. We will not work with your new schedule. We are not interested in a part time raider. You are replaced, best of luck.

This is the main reason why a casual label would not be appropriate to my guild nor many other guilds where social etiquette matters. I will bench players who don’t compete, Raiders either meet standards or they don’t and I don’t work around new schedules.

If I labeled my guild as Social the recruits I would get 9/10 times would not be able to make it in our environment (unable to compete as you would state it) and would be a waste of my time. We’ve been recruiting actively for four months at this point and have already cut out dozens of recruits as well as been told by several recruits that we are just a bit too hardcore for them. I’ve also been told that our organization is incredible and far exceeds that of other hardcore guilds they have spoken with.

My guild expects near perfect attendance, playtime that nears or exceeds full time employment, and is currently already testing recruits on our own aws-hosted test realm running custom mangos updated to match all known classic values. The only difference that I can tell from what you describe as hardcore is I expect all that but also expect my members to maintain a pleasant social environment as well.

The issue here is that they are being mislabeled as "hardcore" when they are quite literally the antithesis to values that would be found in a hardcore raiding atmosphere. This can be misleading for players who are looking for information on how to actually succeed in a hardcore guild. They will prepare their mic, they will open their hearts, fill out their guild app and join the raid expecting a hardcore social experience... They will be greeted with a bunch of sweaty cavemen (me included) screeching at them for not knowing the mechanics to the fight they have never seen. They will fail and be replaced immediately. Your guild is social. You place an emphasis on community. Embrace that label and play for the social experience, because THAT is what makes the game valuable for you and your guild. Just don't misrepresent yourself as a hardcore guild. It will be disappointing for hardcore players who apply to your social guild and it will be disappointing for players who don't know any better to see a guide like this and expect a warm and welcoming atmosphere in the hardcore scene. Let the hardcore scene be what it is... Let them proudly wave their banner and lets define that environment as hardcore, so as not to confuse it with anything else. You should not try to reclaim that title and redefine it. Hardcore is not warm, it is not welcoming, it is not tolerant and it is not a pleasant social experience. Let those players silo themselves and interact with one another under the banner of playing hardcore.
Casual, social, hardcore... We use some of these labels to help draw in a group of individuals who we can relate to and who will blend well together. Use the proper terms when recruiting for and advertising for your guild. If you are primarily looking for social players, don't try to recruit hardcore players because they will be everything you hate. Topic should be "Ways to Succeed in a Vanilla social raiding guild - Be social".

This entire rant is where we fundamentally disagree. I propose a better label for what you call Hardcore: Asocial-Performance Guild, or how bout Toxic Hardcore, or socially-inept competitive.

Since you brought up the unwelcoming nature of it all, let’s discuss the putative “actual hardcore” scene and the sweaty cavemen in it. We wouldn’t want mislead recruits into thinking that these hardcore guilds are quiet places where everyone does their own thing outside of raids and all communication will be nonsocial business.

The majority of the guilds that I’ve experienced that closest match what you repeatedly hold up as the “actual hardcore” I’ve seen are much better defined by the rampant, misogyny, sexism, racism, alt-right propaganda, and inability to function socially than it is by any cold, unwelcoming, drive mercenary-like asocial performance. These guilds definitely have social aspects…it’s just that the aspect just tends to be one completely undesirable to me and many other highly competent players.

Really what I’ve gathered from this is that many people are applying the hardcore retail mentality to classic wow. That mentality is propped up and made possible by server transfers, world wide guild recruitment, and significant paths to skip raid tiers (catch up mechanics) present in retail wow that just weren’t present in vanilla wow.

I’m not misleading any recruit by calling my guild hardcore. Standards are transparent, enforced, and hardcore. If a recruit seeks an Asocial-Performance guild they won’t make it into my guild and they can roll their dice with the “hardcore” guilds you describe and enjoy jumping from guild to guild as they fall apart while mine clears the content and has a damn good time doing it.


In short, I will not let what you describe as hardcore (or the retail hardcore toxicity) to redefine what I’ve repeatedly seen in my own guilds and from the guilds that win server first races, is actually essential to maintaining a hardcore team that performs and stays together for longer than 6 months.

Your posts are, ironically, full of nothing but offensive vitriolic strawmans against people that are actually willing to put time into the game and be good. Unfortunately, this is not your inferiority-complex hugbox. Don't give social advice and label it hardcore advice. You do nothing but mislead any beginners reading this, like I once was misled over a decade ago.
Like, what is this absurdity: "The majority of the guilds that I’ve experienced that closest match what you repeatedly hold up as the “actual hardcore” I’ve seen are much better defined by the rampant, misogyny, sexism, racism, alt-right propaganda, and inability to function socially than it is by any cold, unwelcoming, drive mercenary-like asocial performance." How does this have anything to do with video games, or socialization? Half of these words don't even make sense. All of them are blatantly untrue. Hardcore guilds are the least "-ist" place I've ever experienced in the internet, because nothing matters besides performance.

ColdRain wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Your posts are, ironically, full of nothing but offensive vitriolic strawmans against people that are actually willing to put time into the game and be good. Unfortunately, this is not your inferiority-complex hugbox. Don't give social advice and label it hardcore advice. You do nothing but mislead any beginners reading this, like I once was misled over a decade ago.
Like, what is this absurdity: "The majority of the guilds that I’ve experienced that closest match what you repeatedly hold up as the “actual hardcore” I’ve seen are much better defined by the rampant, misogyny, sexism, racism, alt-right propaganda, and inability to function socially than it is by any cold, unwelcoming, drive mercenary-like asocial performance." How does this have anything to do with video games, or socialization? Half of these words don't even make sense. All of them are blatantly untrue. Hardcore guilds are the least "-ist" place I've ever experienced in the internet, because nothing matters besides performance.

Well, i was planning to address the "war and peace" post from above. ( TLDR plz )

Buuuuut, you decided to go full retard.

1. This is a game, more especially this is a forum, about a game, that isnt even the version of THE game, yet at least.

2. What really gets me is that you did not mention the weekly raid gatherings at Starbucks, alternating with Panera Bread on odd/even solar scales of course. We dont want to show favoritism.

3. I identify as a female blood elf rogue, that means I'm immune to social media stuns. *godly racial* (amiright)

ColdRain wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Your posts are, ironically, full of nothing but offensive vitriolic strawmans

Don't you mean Strawmen? Or Strawomen? You are talking about more than one strawman, right?

ColdRain wrote: ↑

5 years ago

"The majority of the guilds that I’ve experienced that closest match what you repeatedly hold up as the “actual hardcore” I’ve seen are much better defined by the rampant, misogyny, sexism, racism, alt-right propaganda, and inability to function socially than it is by any cold, unwelcoming, drive mercenary-like asocial performance."

There is a quote function in this forum. I'm not sure if you are quoting someone else or yourself or yourself within another person's statement. It's all very confusing lol

I somehow wound up in what you're calling a 'toxic hardcore' guild on a pserver when they were gearing up for server-first MC. Left after a day or two because of a few personalities allowed to run rampant... sad attempts to present themselves as internet tuff-guys and amoral cynics, old news. I've got zero interest in getting involved with the kind of guild you're talking about, though. If pretending I'm friends with a bunch of randoms and listening to their stupid jokes is how I get a raid spot you can keep it.

I used to play sports at a fairly high level, no coach ever stood there saying "be social!" Yeah you need a certain level of respect and politeness or it tears the team down, but wanting everybody to be friends? Cmon.

@Lne (don't want to quote at the disadvantage of the rest of the battlegroup)

Bro(ette?)

That was some ridiculously long explanation of how you had a 1% occurence of what the hard core Vanilla scene was. Though neither of us are cool enough to be in the "world first" category like @Coldrain is. . .

Vanilla hard-core-raiding was a different animal than anything that's going on right now. I started off in a server 3rd guild on Mal'Ganis that was trying to keep pace with <EJ> and it functioned on every level. Toxic, social, and we even met up for drinks to yell at each other in person.
Then I rolled a toon on a whole other server to play with co-workers who are master tacticians in LIFE, let alone WoW. We ran it just like we did at work; pull your weight or fall to the wayside. Our alt/gear farms were done without any voice, just music over Teamspeak. (that's what us old grayhairs use to use) but because we had the guild functioning at such a high level, we didnt shut the music off until Rag. (This is during BWL by the way, so MC farming time)

We kept this rolling through AQ and into Naxx. The guild competed for server firsts the whole time on a very high pop server and we were a top 100 guild worldwide.

@Cletus and I ran with a PVP crew that was comprised of top 15 every single week in addition to the raid schedule. We maintained this for the duration of Vanilla. So I'm not exactly sure what your point is with the novel nor am I even remotely familiar with what the social justice warrior was on about.

TLDR: if you want to be a hard core raider - do it, dont suck, just fucking do it. Your raid will bask in your tears if you fall by the wayside.

If you dislike my opinion, pleas;e roll Alliance, and I'll gladly sit down with you to discuss it after Aug 27th.

Dolamite wrote: ↑

5 years ago

( TLDR plz )

Lne wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Again, though, I don't feel that there is anything wrong with hardcore asocial guilds (outside the inherent social dysfunction and toxicity that tends to be a part of them) you describe, I just know that it is not necessary, and to me, the accomplishments had in that environment ring hollow and unsatisfying.

@Lne is of such an ultra-elitist disposition that they find even hardcore breakneck guilds contemptible, but they don't have the balls to outright say it. The entire post repeatedly says as much then immediately qualifies and equivocates as in the quote above.

Lne wrote: ↑

5 years ago

quiet places where everyone does their own thing outside of raids and all communication will be nonsocial business

for me this is the goal. I don't need quiet like a library, but from a guild I'm just looking for people to cooperate with in a game. Run some dungeons together to get people pre-BiS, do crafts for each other, keep each other safe if somebody's getting camped etc. Go raid. If some people are friends, great, if some people are on voice chat, great-- but I don't want that to be a requirement or the point. Whether I'm friends with somebody or would rather avoid their company is my business. I'd just like the in-game guild chat channel to be about the game, so I can follow it without hearing about Chuck Norris or pogchamps or anything.

maybe this is unrealistic if I want to be in a dragonslaying crew, but if so I'll probably just stick to stabbing fools.

I don't have much to add, but I have to say: this thread is really entertaining to read. The different perspectives are fascinating.

To me, it seems like Lne is setting his aim high by requiring his guild to be hardcore in terms of performance, as well as non-toxic and socially active. The best of all worlds, so to speak. I think this will be a difficult feat to pull off, especially in Classic with the 40 man raid size. Hardcore raiders with great attitudes and social skills are rare beasts. But I don't think it's impossible either, and I wish him the best of luck with it.

Morph wrote: ↑

5 years ago

I don't have much to add, but I have to say: this thread is really entertaining to read. The different perspectives are fascinating.

To me, it seems like Lne is setting his aim high by requiring his guild to be hardcore in terms of performance, as well as non-toxic and socially active. The best of all worlds, so to speak. I think this will be a difficult feat to pull off, especially in Classic with the 40 man raid size. Hardcore raiders with great attitudes and social skills are rare beasts. But I don't think it's impossible either, and I wish him the best of luck with it.

In my guild, I am not saying I wasnt social-able, because I did make many friends and talked to them in and out of raids. But its 40 man raid and probably a 60 man guild, give or take, and I didnt really know or talked to half the guild. And we were still able to clear all raids before Naxx and clear about half of Naxx before TBC came out. We werent Hardcore, Hardcore guild but we were sure Hardcore per say.

Yeah, I think being social-able in a hardcore guild is important but I mean just don't be a dick.
Show up on time, make sure your prepared, listen to the raid leader and do your job!
If its dispelling, dispel, if its healing heal, and so on...

I kinda relate it to a Football team, where you dont need to be best friends, you just need to gel on the field (in a raid) and when it matters like practice (progression) and preparation (getting pre-raid gear, potions, flasks)!