My dudes, just a quick feedback as some of you guys were interested.. I went 180 degrees on my class pick.
Read some more threads, talked with some friends and other players this past few days.
I changed my mind, Im actually going Orc Rogue for Classic. Thats my final decision.
Fits more of my playstyle, experience, playtime avaiable and goals.
Anyway, Im very happy with all the help you guys gave me this past few weeks, I've been learning a lot! =)
haha nope!
no more switching classes, thats final!
I don't believe you :)
Blizzard Entertainment
You think you do, but you don’t
I disagree with this. Axes are not uncommon, many drop throughout the course of vanilla. As a horde warrior who is competing against you for axes, the other warriors? Meaning you inherit most of the axes by default. But how does this help my TPS when I am tanking primarily with swords as they are optimized for tanking while axes are not? Because when you don't have threat, you can swap weapons in combat and equip two axes allowing you to generate more rage by dual wielding (as you don't have threat and aren't generating rage from being hit) and can increase your DPS and rage gen, thus increasing your TPS to re-establish threat on the mob before swapping back to sword and board. Similarly, you are able to start with a more aggressive tanking approach to potentially build threat quicker by using axes before you hot swap to your tanking weapon and shield. + axes makes this a very valuable approach. Options, Orcs have meaningful options due to their insane racials.morbidmike wrote: ↑5 years agoThe axe spec is garbage for tanking because tanking axes are extremely rare, shouldn't really consider it for extra TPS.
2000 IQg0bledyg00k wrote: ↑5 years agoNever making a single investment again until I 100% know it pays off.
The problem with Axes when tanking raid bosses (dungeons are a different story) is this:
Raid bosses hit so hard you will be ragecapped almost all the time. This means that you can Heroic Strike every melee swing.
1) Heroic Strike can never be a glancing blow, so weapon skill will matter a whole lot less. It's mainly used to counter glancing blows.
2) Your TPS goes up a whole lot when wearing a fast weapon (such as a Dagger) because you can add the Heroic Strike damage and threat multiplier every 2.6 seconds (such as with Deathbringer Axe) or every 1.3 seconds (such as Alcor's Sunrazor). Nothing compares to that 1.3 second swing timer because of Heroic Strike mechanics.
These two things combined are why Axes skill is garbage for maintanking compared to Berserking. Berserking is much better because it affects your mainhand swing speed, which in turn allows you to pump out more Heroic Strikes.
An argument can be made for the offtank, because for the offtank the weapon skill really will matter (he won't be ragecapped due to being hit).
We were never talking about trolls. Look at the topic that OP posted. This was always a comparison between tauren and orcs. We need to stay within the boundaries of this conversation. Thus, Orcs have an opportunity to produce more TPS and can gain more by throwing on an offhand axe than a tauren can. If that same Orc chose to go full DPS, he will benefit more from +axes. Remember, OP is looking to do a variety of content including PvP. So everything that an Orc has going for it, comes into play. When we are comparing tanking, we are choosing tauren HP VS +axes for Orc. An argument can be made either way, but I would still opt to take +axes as it adds an opportunity to produce more TPS.morbidmike wrote: ↑5 years agoThe problem with Axes when tanking raid bosses (dungeons are a different story) is this:
Raid bosses hit so hard you will be ragecapped almost all the time. This means that you can Heroic Strike every melee swing.
1) Heroic Strike can never be a glancing blow, so weapon skill will matter a whole lot less. It's mainly used to counter glancing blows.
2) Your TPS goes up a whole lot when wearing a fast weapon (such as a Dagger) because you can add the Heroic Strike damage and threat multiplier every 2.6 seconds (such as with Deathbringer Axe) or every 1.3 seconds (such as Alcor's Sunrazor). Nothing compares to that 1.3 second swing timer because of Heroic Strike mechanics.
These two things combined are why Axes skill is garbage for maintanking compared to Berserking. Berserking is much better because it affects your mainhand swing speed, which in turn allows you to pump out more Heroic Strikes.
An argument can be made for the offtank, because for the offtank the weapon skill really will matter (he won't be ragecapped due to being hit).
When we take a step back and look at the variety of content OP wants to do though, Orc still outvalues Tauren. OP has since decided to roll rogue anyhow.
2000 IQg0bledyg00k wrote: ↑5 years agoNever making a single investment again until I 100% know it pays off.
I will be going Orc Warrior since it can do everything that i need which is 1. Tank 2. DPS. 3.PvP
I hope they will fix the range with leeway so it is actually not broken. It could seriously damage pvp overall.
Faendur, the Creepy Dwarf
There's lots of wonky shit going on in the beta. From what I've seen in clips etc. WoW Classic might actually be a less enjoyable experience on release than the more recent private servers we have been playing on. Just look at shit like this: and Blizz is still hiding behind https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... 8678005760
. Pets being broken obviously. I've seen reports in the Classic Mage Discord that AoE farming is nowhere close to what we have seen in due to melee mobs getting leeway. And look at what happened back in 2006 when a Warrior charged through a trap: "Working as intended". No thank you Blizzard. And those are just Mage and Hunter.[/rant]
Arguments like we will preserve this bug because it matches our referential client are total bullshit. Why would they keep obvious bugs that have no reason to stay in game whatsoever. Such a stupid rationale. I'm starting to hate the term no-changes along with the people promoting it.
Faendur, the Creepy Dwarf
Many people who played the Beta at a high level actually said they feared Tauren Warriors more than Orc Warriors in PvP.Stfuppercut wrote: ↑5 years agoWe do this constantly. People ask for what is "best". It typically involves them mentioning Orc. Orc is the best horde warrior race by a mile. We tell them that because the question is framed from a min/max perspective. People who arent min/maxers join the thread, that is asking a min/max question, and exclaim "BE WHATEVER YOU WANT, EVERYONE IS SPECIAL!" OP will typically squirm and make their case for taurens or undeads, we(usually me) point out why Orc is definitively superior. This goes on for a bit until they tucker out and the thread dies... 2-3 days later someone posts the same question, typically involving Orcs.Kchlangendin wrote: ↑5 years agoGuys, don't think i'm trying to be salt but these topics starting to be redicilouse. Every class is good, every race is good, just release yourself from those shackles and pick class and race that you enjoy most. Play the game its meant to be played and stop those min-maxes, jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez
Cheers :)
Hardiness is the best PvP racial ingame. Every competent PvPer has a stun. All of your opposition have grenades and built in stuns to their class with the exception of warlocks - warriors already have a lot of answers to warlock fear. For PvE throughput weapon skill is dominant, therefore axe skill is nuts. This can even affect PvE threat as new metas involving warriors doing DPS to generate threat before swapping to sword and board are emerging. Bloodfury rounds them out well offering a nice little bonus to both PvE and PvP for the most dominant warrior race combo ingame. The only case that could confidently be made for tauren is hp for tanking, and I still think that falls short given the Orcs combination of racials and the potential to gain more threat per second. Competent warriors in competent guilds would often prefer more TPS than HP from my experience.
Tauren range is sweet. We dont know how leeway will end up shuffling the meta. Leeway works both ways though, and tauren warriors are susceptible to FAR more snares and CC's, especially if they dont have a dedicated healer following them around at all times. The tauren warrior is a SUPER vulnerable punching bag in PvP.
If you play PvE dps, Orc axe spec is king. If you play PvP, hardiness will serve you best in most circumstances and provide the best value overall. If you are tanking in PvE, HP is less important than TPS - most tanking weapons are swords, but axes still provide and opportunity to provide additional TPS; In PvE tanking, a case can be made for tauren HP but I still think it is a weak case given the overwhelming strength of Orc in all other circumstances and the potential for a tanking Orc to generate more TPS especially as the meta grows into more and more aggressive/reckless tanking styles to generate higher TPS.
EDIT: I should have directly answered OP's question...
PVE DPS = Orc is superior for throughput - no argument can be made in opposition of this.
PvP = Orc is superior overall due to hardiness.
PvE TANK = A case can be made for either Orc or Tauren as a PvE tank, I think that TPS is more important than HP and would personally opt to play an Orc.
The best race overall is an Orc.
In PvE Orc are strictly better, but in PvP Tauren are better against most classes.
WOTF is great, but it loses some value on a class with an inherent fear break. It's definitely not useless though, since you're going to be caught outside of zerker stance sometimes. I'm going with Undead for my Classic Warrior mainly for the aesthetics, but WOTF being an extra fear break plus charm and sleep is nice.cburmeister wrote: ↑5 years agoOf course not... OP mentioned PvP as well as PvE. It's stupid to not consider WOTF if debating the best Warrior race for PvP.
And I've seen people mention WOTF being nice to have for tanking as well vs bosses who can fear. If your shamans don't have their tremor totems down and you're not tanking in berserker stance it's nice to have.
Everyone knows Orc is great in PvP for hardiness. If you go Prot down to Iron Will, an Orc Warrior can have an extra 40% stun resist, which is nutty considering all of the stuns in the game (including those grenades; check out how many people are planning to be engineers in that Reddit census poll).
I voted Orc in the poll since I think it is overall optimal, though as lots of people have mentioned here Trolls probably have the best threat-per-second thanks to berserking, and Tauren have some cool PvP bonuses in the form of war stomp and the extra melee range.
If i where going warrior i would pick Troll for tanking, if i wanted to play fury or pvp i would roll Orc.
Tauren are not better for PvP. Leeway works both ways. Tautens have a massive vulnerability to being hit and controlled in group fights. They will be incredibly vulnerable without dedicated heals. For warriors who spend most of their time playing solo, I would avoid Tauren like the plague. The beta, which highlights twinked warriors at odd level thresholds in 1v1 encounters that had a strict rule set, will not be a good metric to use when deciding if taurens are optimal for PvP.
2000 IQg0bledyg00k wrote: ↑5 years agoNever making a single investment again until I 100% know it pays off.
Leeway works both ways, but its a net gain to Warriors. It’s actually a huge advantage for Tauren warriors with the added range. The key thing you forgot is that warriors always want to be in melee range, while basically every other class will try to kite the warrior, and avoid melee range. The most meaningful parts of fighting a Warrior don't occur at max range, but rather at close range.Stfuppercut wrote: ↑5 years agoTauren are not better for PvP. Leeway works both ways. Tautens have a massive vulnerability to being hit and controlled in group fights. They will be incredibly vulnerable without dedicated heals. For warriors who spend most of their time playing solo, I would avoid Tauren like the plague. The beta, which highlights twinked warriors at odd level thresholds in 1v1 encounters that had a strict rule set, will not be a good metric to use when deciding if taurens are optimal for PvP.
The inverse of this is the reason being a Tauren Hunter is abysmal. Everyone accepts that for Hunters, Tauren are the worst possible race, but yet some people are blinded to the opposite side of this when it comes to Warriors. After all, Tauren get more gun/bow range - they can shoot people further away! BiS? No - long-range is not where the meaningful combat occurs -- it occurs at close range. So yes, even though Tauren Hunters can shoot further away, the more important combat scenarios occur while disengaging and kiting melee. Likewise, even though casters can hit Tauren Warriors further away, the key parts of combat occur after the Warrior closes the gap.
In short, the hitbox obviously a double-edged sword for Tauren Warriors, but the favorable edge of that sword so massively outweighs the unfavorable edge that it ends up being a net advantage.
PS, You mentioned healing - Tauren can also be healed from further away. If its a Tauren healer like Druid or Shaman, then you can add even more range. Its gets insane.
No it isnt. Perhaps it was in a dualing tournament with 1v1's but imagine that same warrior on an AV front line with no dedicated healer. While he will hit a TON of enemies, he will get hit by everything - always. He is a GIGANTIC punching bag.ALLIANCE_SOYBOYS wrote: ↑5 years agoLeeway works both ways, but its a net gain to Warriors. It’s actually a huge advantage for Tauren warriors with the added range.
Dont get me wrong, with dedicated heals, it will be great, but most warriors will spend most of their time without dedicated heals. Leeway works both ways and depending on the context of the situation, can be bad for warrior. As usually people are over-simplifying a complicated topic.
2000 IQg0bledyg00k wrote: ↑5 years agoNever making a single investment again until I 100% know it pays off.
Why would I imagine a front line AV Warrior without heals? If you're front line PvPing as a Warrior without healers, then why are you even PvPing as a Warrior? At that point it doesnt matter whether you are an Orc or a Tauren. You're gonna have a bad time. When we're discussing BiS race for PvP Warrior, so we have to talk about it in the context of optimizing the class in its optimal conditions, and that includes a healer. Even in the non-optimal solo-playing casual context, Tauren is still probably better anyway since low skill players forget to use grenades, assuming they even have engineering at all. Additional Melee Range is also more consistent and more forgiving for casuals than a 75% failure rate dice roll, most of the PvP you do in Vanilla is in small skirmishes anyway, and Warstomp is a powerful and simple PvP ability.Stfuppercut wrote: ↑5 years agoNo it isnt. Perhaps it was in a dualing tournament with 1v1's but imagine that same warrior on an AV front line with no dedicated healer. While he will hit a TON of enemies, he will get hit by everything - always. He is a GIGANTIC punching bag.ALLIANCE_SOYBOYS wrote: ↑5 years agoLeeway works both ways, but its a net gain to Warriors. It’s actually a huge advantage for Tauren warriors with the added range.
Dont get me wrong, with dedicated heals, it will be great, but most warriors will spend most of their time without dedicated heals. Leeway works both ways and depending on the context of the situation, can be bad for warrior. As usually people are over-simplifying a complicated topic.
You pointed out again that Leeway can work to a Warrior's detriment. I agree, but I already accounted for that. Again, yes - in some scenarios it works to the Warrior's detriment, but far more often larger hitboxes work to a Warriors benefit. There is a reason the Warrior community is thrilled that Leeway was confirmed working as intended. When you add the Tauren hitbox (and Warstomp) to the equation, it becomes oppressive.
Go Orcs.
As the min/max POV was was explained thoroughly already I just gonna add the style into the discussion:
After some time you will get bored looking at this big steak. As your fellow orc and troll razorgirls are looking more awesome with every gear update you might start mumbling 'why did I do that to me' to yourself.
And I think one of the reasons some streamers are going tauren this time is maybe that they got bored of creating schwarzenegger girl #17.
Because that will be the reality for most warriors most times. Most players are not a conjoined twin. Therefore they will spend most of their time solo, even if they have an organized team and are pushing premades. You will have scheduled times where you have the support of a healer, otherwise you area solo. A bleak reality for the tauren warrior.ALLIANCE_SOYBOYS wrote: ↑5 years agoWhy would I imagine a front line AV Warrior without heals? If you're front line PvPing as a Warrior without healers, then why are you even PvPing as a Warrior?
Wont provide anywhere near the value of hardiness in either a 1v1 or group fight context overall. Especially at the top end when people are geared and have the capacity to global one another.
Warriors are excited and many warriors see the potential downside that a tauren presents. All things are good in balance. Tauren reach will simply be too far in most cases and will work against taurens.ALLIANCE_SOYBOYS wrote: ↑5 years agoYou pointed out again that Leeway can work to a Warrior's detriment. I agree, but I already accounted for that. Again, yes - in some scenarios it works to the Warrior's detriment, but far more often larger hitboxes work to a Warriors benefit. There is a reason the Warrior community is thrilled that Leeway was confirmed working as intended. When you add the Tauren hitbox (and Warstomp) to the equation, it becomes oppressive.
You will also see an over-representation of tauren warriors by primary influencers and content creators who will have the unique experience of having access to countless healers willing to follow them at all times.
2000 IQg0bledyg00k wrote: ↑5 years agoNever making a single investment again until I 100% know it pays off.
Toll
**5 health per 5 seconds and there is nothing you can do about it!**
"Dem <LUSTRUMGG> Raiders Be Chill Mon"
I discussed this at length in my last post. Even accepting your no-healer premise, Tauren are still more forgiving because, again, most of your PvP is in small skirmishes — not the front line of AV.Because that will be the reality for most warriors most times. Most players are not a conjoined twin. Therefore they will spend most of their time solo, even if they have an organized team and are pushing premades. You will have scheduled times where you have the support of a healer, otherwise you area solo. A bleak reality for the tauren warrior.
Secondly, since we’re discussing BiS Warrior PvP race, then we should discuss it in its optimal conditions, which is with a healer.
Either way Tauren is the better PvP race in most situations. I explained this all in my last post.
Warstomp won’t provide anywhere near the value of hardiness in either a 1v1 or group fight context overall.
Let me back up to make sure you understand. Both races have a racial passive and racial active:
Passive:
Added Melee Range (Tauren) vs Hardiness (Orc)
Active:
Warstomp (Tauren) vs Blood Fury (Orc)
This whole conversation so far has been about the passive comparison. When I bring up Warstomp it’s in comparison to Orc’s active racial, Bloodfury. You are obviously aware that Warstomp is a far superior PvP active.
It’s actually the exact opposite; all the excitement from years of theory crafting has been centered around Orcs, and so there will be an over representation of a Orc Warriors. Just look at the poll in this thread as proof. Most people just reading online chat discussions over the last year will certainly have fallen for the Orc OP circlejerk. Obviously they’re strong, but Tauren’s melee range was not part of the most popular Private Server these last several years. That’s why everyone is so surprised by it — and therefore the theorycrafting that worshipped Orcs never had the Tauren hitbox to compare it to. Now that we’ve had the Beta, many if not most people who have had to deal with Tauren Warriors have clearly said that Tauren are more fearsome Warrior Race.Warriors are excited and many warriors see the potential downside that a tauren presents. All things are good in balance. Tauren reach will simply be too far in most cases and will work against taurens.
You will also see an over-representation of tauren warriors by primary influencers and content creators who will have the unique experience of having access to countless healers willing to follow them at all times.
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