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Holyfrog wrote:
3 months ago
killerduki wrote:
3 months ago
Only because his threat got highly boosted by Block Value from Sapphiron Trinket , doesn't mean that "Weapon would have made him do such big amount of threat if there was no Sapphiron Trinket using by him" .
And you specifically requested he did not dualwield. You also imposed restrictions on buffs and debuffs while you were wearing a Flask of Supreme Power yourself.
killerduki wrote:
3 months ago
Nobody changed conditions of the test , it was asked to do on lvl 1 and on Raid lvl target Dummy , because Raid lvl target Dummy are going to be huge NERF for Warrior tanks compare to lvl 1 Dummy!
See the above quote.
And you specifically requested he did not dualwield.
Requesting to not use some specific "Meme Spec" which is going to destroy main tank like Dual Wield thanks to Parry Haste and because i requested him to sit on the same level as me , doesn't mean i was restricting him from anything.

It was request where he would do same as i did , otherwise i could have used Shields that scale with SP and torn him apart in regard to threats as Offtank , but instead the TESTS was requested to be in proper DEFENSIVE way!

I could anytime use some sort of 2Hand Weapon as OFFTANK to compete his "Duel Wield" , but i didn't , because the TESTS had different purpose, pure Defensive Geared Tank with only Threat MainHand Weapon.

Here is SKARM himself testing 2Hand Weapon as threat:



See how he torn apart the Warrior Tank in regards to threat using 2hander Weapon as Paladin. (Despite the fact he didn't even use Judgement of Wisdom for more Mana,so he went oom because he did spam Consecration against single target which is poor threat and heavy mana consume).

He even didn't got Righteous Fury at the end to show mercy toward Warrior Tank even!

Does that change the fact that Warriors are going to be stronger Tanks?! NO , because as DW he wouldn't use his abilities which do scale with Shield Block Value = Lesser Threat he is going to be compare to how he was thanks to Sapphiron Trinket!
You also imposed restrictions on buffs and debuffs while you were wearing a Flask of Supreme Power yourself.
What buffs/debuffs i did restrict him to not use?!!!?!?

Re read what was written on the Screenshots you wrote :

2nd screenshot

Quoting myself "11:35 Killerduki: @skarm Just be in full Def Gear using threats Main Hand Weapon , use all consumes you can and self buffs"

I never said "DO NOT USE SELF DEBUFFS/BUFFFS , CONSUMES, "

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Stfuppercut wrote:
3 months ago
@killerduki they are starting to make some headway in the conversation... QUICKLY distract everyone with a wall of spam and more videos to make the thread more convoluted and challenging to navigate! Do full quotes without pinpointing which parts of their posts you are responding to! Create a wave of text!!!! No a tsunami of text by spam quoting! Perhaps you could distract everyone by calling us noobs and pricks! Better yet, disregard the progress in the conversation and restate your previous points without acknowledging any criticisms that were previously made! The walls are closing in, you dont have much time left! Racism... Racists. YOURE ALL RACISTS!
Did we just put a salt shaker on the table? :twisted: That's so mean, but also quite entertaining so thank you :lol:

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Xaldron wrote:
3 months ago
Skipping all your huge creative walls of text after this statement, Killerduki. I just want to address it first:
Why the hell am i going to spam Consecration which bad threat against Single Target?! ...
1) Consecration will use the same amount of mana no matter how many targets affected
2) Earlier you posted a video where you fight one single mob, "proving", that you can cast consecration on every cooldown without running oom.

Your question is ridiculous as it was not an issue in your own video, nor does it change the fact that using consecration on every cooldown will run you oom.

According to your claims that you can spam consecration on every cooldown without running oom. Why wouldn't you want to use it on a single target as well? It causes holy damage which we both know is where most of your threat is generated from, due to righteous fury. And even though, as you point out, it doesn't cause much single target threat, why wouldn't you still generate that threat, small as it is, if it doesn't run you oom?

Then you'd probably say that for the single target you would use SoR instead of SoW. Still, you have based your arguments on paladins not having mana issues on their access to SoW.
May I point out; paladin tanks mana issue does not only stem from the use of consecration. On a single target raid boss, you will still run out of mana eventually spamming SoR/JoR. That is unless, you prepare for the fight with runes, mana pots, and other consumables. In this case making you dependent on consumables or enablers (like druids wasting innervate on you).
1) Consecration will use the same amount of mana no matter how many targets affected
1 Tick of Consecration = 48 damage = 90 threat.
1 Block of Holy Shield = 130 damage = 302 threat = 3.9 Consecration ticks.

If i am going to choose between those 2 = Holy Shield forever.
2) Earlier you posted a video where you fight one single mob, "proving", that you can cast consecration on every cooldown without running oom.
Video was for AoE purpose where i do "SPAM CONSECRATION MAX RANKS" without "MANA ISSUES".
Your question is ridiculous as it was not an issue in your own video, nor does it change the fact that using consecration on every cooldown will run you oom.
Skarm Video was referring on killing trash where he said "Spamming Consecration Max ranks is bad and cause you oom" , only because he was doing terrible rotation and abilities killing the same trash , doesn't mean he was right.

In fact he was wrong , in those Trash you ALWAYS do use Max Ranks Consecration (exception is if you crowd control) and do Seal/Judge Wisdom , not casting any other spells and NEVER have any Mana Issues.
According to your claims that you can spam (you forgot to say max rank) consecration on every cooldown without running oom.
And that's what i proven so far in the Video.
Why wouldn't you want to use it on a single target as well?
Explained before = Poor Threat = Mana Inefficient for current behavior , doesn't mean i would never use, it is just spamming it is terrible idea to do against Single Target.
It causes holy damage which we both know is where most of your threat is generated from, due to righteous fury.
It's true that our most threat is generated by Holy Damage, but not everything works the way it is described , you need to look things at how they work , not at how they are written!



Example is this , white swings does nearly 30-40% of the threat, but nowhere it is written that White Swings does good threats for Paladin! .
And even though, as you point out, it doesn't cause much single target threat, why wouldn't you still generate that threat, small as it is, if it doesn't run you oom?
Because we got Abilities and Spells who does produce much higher threat for much lower mana requirement compare to Consecration!
Then you'd probably say that for the single target you would use SoR instead of SoW. Still, you have based your arguments on paladins not having mana issues on their access to SoW.
Depend on the situation sometime , but 90% of the "Singer Target" i would use SoR for extra threat and JoW for extra Mana regen. I don't need SoW unless it is AoE fight for Max Rank Consecration, because SoW as you can see on previous Holyfrog Video = terrible single target threat.
May I point out; paladin tanks mana issue does not only stem from the use of consecration. On a single target raid boss, you will still run out of mana eventually spamming SoR/JoR.
Feel free to use JoW and then SoR/JoR on target and see how wrong your fallacy logic is,where if you never use Consecration , you will NEVER EVER OOM : https://www.google.com/search?newwindow ... aDhJqXLQag

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Both the argument and all its premises must be true for a statement to be true. The term logical fallacy is in a sense self-contradictory, because logic refers to valid reasoning, whereas a fallacy is the use of poor reasoning. Therefore, the term formal fallacy is preferred.
That is unless, you prepare for the fight with runes, mana pots, and other consumables. In this case making you dependent on consumables or enablers (like druids wasting innervate on you).
I usually use them in cases where i do need to do specific types of action or if i want to Boost whole Raid DPS by doing more threat for them to do more DPS.

Does that mean it makes me dependent on consumables ? No.

Evidence as Psojed said is this Video :



No Runes ,No Pots, No JoW , No Innervates = No Consumables dependent!

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killerduki wrote:
3 months ago
And you specifically requested he did not dualwield.
Requesting to not use some specific "Meme Spec" which is going to destroy main tank like Dual Wield thanks to Parry Haste and because i requested him to sit on the same level as me , doesn't mean i was restricting him from anything.
Good off-tanks stand behind the boss when not actively tanking for this very reason. Parry haste from the offtank dualwielding is not a factor.

killerduki wrote:
3 months ago
It was request where he would do same as i did , otherwise i could have used Shields that scale with SP and torn him apart in regard to threats as Offtank , but instead the TESTS was requested to be in proper DEFENSIVE way!
There is exactly one shield in the entire game with spellpower. Draconian Aegis of the Legion with +20 SP.
That means a 2 damage increase on your SoR, 0.8 damage increase on Consecration, 10 damage increase on Judgement and 1 damage increase on Holy Shield.
Totally enough to "tear apart" a Warrior dualwielding for rage. /s

killerduki wrote:
3 months ago
Here is SKARM himself testing 2Hand Weapon as threat:
SpoilerShow
See how he torn apart the Warrior Tank in regards to threat using 2hander Weapon as Paladin. (Despite the fact he didn't even use Judgement of Wisdom for more Mana,so he went oom because he did spam Consecration against single target which is poor threat and heavy mana consume).

He even didn't got Righteous Fury at the end to show mercy toward Warrior Tank even!

Does that change the fact that Warriors are going to be stronger Tanks?! NO , because as DW he wouldn't use his abilities which do scale with Shield Block Value = Lesser Threat he is going to be compare to how he was thanks to Sapphiron Trinket!
Hakkar is pretty buggy on private servers though. I have tanked him as a Druid with MCP's where I was 20% ahead of the next guy on threat, and the boss still would not focus me. You can see this at 3 min 40 sec in the video where Skarm cast Blessing of Protection on himself and the boss keep hitting him.
Hakkar is simply put not a good example of threat for any tank class due to pserver shenanigans. Not to mention the obvious here, which is that Skarm is wearing the Tier 2.5 Avenger set and swinging an 85 DPS twohander from Naxxramas. That's two raid tiers above ZG.

As you can also see in this video, healers have similar level of gear which means Skarm can simply sit there with next to no defense on gear and rely on Reckoning procs. Which is something that's just not realistic as a Paladin if you are doing current content.
It's like playing a gimped version of DW Furyprot without the Defensive stance and additional armor/health.

Does that change the fact that Warriors are going to be stronger Tanks?! NO , because as DW he wouldn't use his abilities which do scale with Shield Block Value = Lesser Threat he is going to be compare to how he was thanks to Sapphiron Trinket!
Not true. Shield Slam scale with 1 damage per block value, which means every block value is something like 1.49 threat. It's not even close to the benefit of putting on a secondary weapon for rage for additional white damage, as well as getting Flurry procs for 30% attack speed, which gives you crazy high use of Heroic Strike. It far outweights the threat benefit from using Shield Slam.

Using Glyph of Deflection will provide you with 235 Block Value for 20 seconds. That's potentially 4 shield slams, each doing 350 additional threat from activating the trinket. Because the trinket has a 2 min cooldown, the trinket adds a total amount of 11.66 Threat per second. A drop in the bucket compared to simply putting on a off-hand to deal more whitedamage and cause more Heroic Strike.

I will admit the trinket does give you nice on demand burst threat. But this is not really necessary unless you are talking about picking up a boss after an aggro-reset, or during a pull. It does not really matter for sustained threat such as in a scenario where an off-tank is trying to keep up with the Maintank on threat.

killerduki wrote:
3 months ago
Does that mean it makes me dependent on consumables ? No.

Evidence as Psojed said is this Video :
SpoilerShow
No Runes ,No Pots, No JoW , No Innervates = No Consumables dependent!
I have already demonstrated that in an actual raid your DPS would be doing up towards 70-80% more damage. The only reason you were able to succesfully tank this boss without using consumables like Major Mana Potion and Demonic Rune is because of this fact.
Your total TPS in the video is 361.9 (59.000 / 163 seconds). Considering you have a Thunderfury, this is absolutely terrible. Using the previous video posted in this thread of the warrior in preraid bis DPS'ing Patchwerk, and accounting for the fact that there was no execute phase in that video, a full blue preraid geared Warrior with Blessing of Salvation would be doing 400+ TPS which means you would have lost threat.
This number would also just keep climbing as the length of the bossfight decrease due to higher Deathwish and trinket uptime.

If you are going to refuse to address any criticisms regarding that video then please stop posting it.

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Pretty weird that Duki is now posting Logical Fallacy infographics.

As for his current claims, he is lying too much now about what he did or didn't say in the clearly linked discord for him to be credible about anything.

   Stfuppercut Tewi Xaldron
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killerduki wrote:
3 months ago
Depend on the situation sometime , but 90% of the "Singer Target" i would use SoR for extra threat and JoW for extra Mana regen. I don't need SoW unless it is AoE fight for Max Rank Consecration, because SoW as you can see on previous Holyfrog Video = terrible single target threat.
You do realize I intentionally did not use a Seal so that I would simulate the behaviour of SoR in Classic right? The point of my longevity video was not to demonstrate threat it any way. It was simply a means to demonstrate how long your mana would last with a high threat rotation.

Because SoR on private servers proc Judgement of WIsdom, I could not use this seal for the test. However the mana cost is the same, so by recasting Wisdom right before Judgement it meant I would be spending the same amount of mana as I would if I were swinging SoR in Classic on every auto. By not having a seal active while autoattacking, I would also be regaining the same amount of mana as a Paladin would in Classic.

That was the purpose of the test. The video has nothing at all to do with the actual threat output you produce, as that would require very different conditions.

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Linguine wrote:
3 months ago
Pretty weird that Duki is now posting Logical Fallacy infographics.

As for his current claims, he is lying too much now about what he did or didn't say in the clearly linked discord for him to be credible about anything.
Yes, that's why I declare this a dead end. So I'm just gonna say the same thing as Stfuppercut. Can't wait to see this fella run his own guild and main tank trough content as paladin. The whole thing is going to be a huge parody, so at least it will bring us all something to laugh about.

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Xaldron wrote:
3 months ago
Linguine wrote:
3 months ago
Pretty weird that Duki is now posting Logical Fallacy infographics.

As for his current claims, he is lying too much now about what he did or didn't say in the clearly linked discord for him to be credible about anything.
Yes, that's why I declare this a dead end. So I'm just gonna say the same thing as Stfuppercut. Can't wait to see this fella run his own guild and main tank trough content as paladin. The whole thing is going to be a huge parody, so at least it will bring us all something to laugh about.
At a certain point this becomes a waste of effort, which is how most of his conversations seem to go. He continues to type until everyone else just quits and then he counts that as a win. None of what he is saying moves the conversation forward... I understand being passionate and I understand giving information, but hes linked the same videos a dozen times and repeated the same awful points dozens of times. He's just stuck in a mental loop at this point.

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Howdy, tankadins.

I've been playing as a prot paladin on several private servers over the past few years, and in preparation for Classic's release, I put together and published a WoWHead guide on protection paladin tanking, although I'd consider it far from being complete and is a work in progress. Link is below.

https://classic.wowhead.com/guides/ligh ... in-tanking

I have also been doing lots of theorycrafting and research on unique tanking armor and trinkets, as well as on paladin tanking abilities. The aim of my theorycrafting is to create mathematical formulas and analyses on tanking mechanics such as damage mitigation and threat generation in order to reach objective and factual conclusions about the most optimal and viable solutions for paladin tanks. I'm looking for like-minded people to work together with me on this.
Below is a link to my Google Drive folder containing theorycrafting spreadsheets for various items and abilities (view only).

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

Below are some sample screenshots of a few theorycrafting spreadsheets in my folder I've done so far.

Force Reactive Disk DPS - fun fact, the DPS scales exponentially with the number of mobs (N^2)
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Holy Shield damage mitigation
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Holy Shield base threat generation
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Seal of Righteousness basic analysis. I would say this one requires the most work as I still need to figure out the formula for how Main Hand Weapon speed affects the on-hit damage of SoR. At the very least i figured out the values for the minimum and maximums under various conditions.
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   Selexin Roadblock Holyfrog Tec Xaldron Linguine vanillalad
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Thank you @Askalon, for shamelessly promoting your guide without even taking notice of the ongoing discussion.

I was hoping for another well informed opinion or perspective, some input at the very least. Disappointing.

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Rinkusan wrote:
3 months ago
Thank you Askalon, for shamelessly promoting your guide without even taking notice of the ongoing discussion.

I was hoping for another well informed opinion or perspective, some input at the very least. Disappointing.
Meh, take a look at his guide...

"The goal of this guide is to provide aspiring paladin tanks a comprehensive introduction towards become a successful tank for the majority of end-game content, excluding 40-man raids. What I define by success is being able to consistently tank 5-man dungeons and some 20-man raid encounters at approximately the same level as warrior tanks. Don't expect to be tanking Patchwerk or Kel'Thuzad anytime soon, though." (Askalon's guide)

He goes on to list the weaknesses of paladin tanks as:

No taunt
Limited access to raid-tier tanking gear
Almost no abilities available for single-target crowd control
No emergency damage mitigation abilities (e.g. Last Stand, Shield Wall)
Limited mana resource pool for spells and abilities


Under his reccomendations he states (and youre going to LOVE this Duki...)
"Highly recommended to not tank raids as a paladin during guild progression; only after raid is on farm."
"You will very likely need tanking gear of the same raid tier or higher to make up for a lack of surviability abilities (Shield Wall, Last Stand) compared to warrior tanks."


This one is for you @Psojed
"Using consumables is a must. I recommend using a Flask of Supreme Power or Titans, Major Mana Potions, Mageblood Potions, and Mana Oil to keep up threat generation due to extended fight times."

Seems like he has a pretty accurate understanding of what to expect when playing a prot paladin. Very reasonable expectations. Also the conversation with Duki is a nightmare... The guy just keeps linking the same videos and is stuck in a mental loop. The conversation needed some fresh blood and this guide can add to the conversation for new guys who want some pally tanking info without the copious amounts of drama that can be found in this thread. I say, WELCOME aboard Askalon!

Dont get me wrong... I do enjoy a bit of drama, but for some of the other people who just want some information, this guide could be a good place to start. The video I linked at the start of the thread made by Skarm is pretty decent, and this guide also seems pretty accurate in a text based option. Two great options to help players get some pally tanking info.

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Stfuppercut wrote:
3 months ago
The conversation needed some fresh blood and this guide can add to the conversation for new guys who want some pally tanking info without the copious amounts of drama that can be found in this thread.
Exactly, which is why I would have liked for him to not just link his guide but actually respond to the thread. Information is what I am looking for, since I have never played a Pally and probably never will.

It just seemed a shame to me; "oh there's a pally tanking thread, time to copy and paste my marketing post".

I just want to encourage a bit more contribution than that, is all :)

But you are right of course, the information given in said post is useful one way or the other.

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I think @Askalon has been one of the only ones to actually move the topic forward for a while. Thanks for your reasonable and well compiled information, this thread had turned into a real shit fight, and not actually providing reasonable and level headed information.

Well said @Stfuppercut, credit where credit is due for the reply, I agree with you completely. It's nice to see realistic and informative replies.

   Stfuppercut Linguine
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@Askalon

Thanks for the contribution. I thoroughly enjoyed the guide, and I do think this fits well into this thread, as its does answer what the original poster wanted to know about Paladin tanks. Which was the point of the thread in the first place.

I also found the graphs interesting, particularly the one showing Holy Shield threat. As per your own data, you need to actually use up all 4 charges of Holy Shield in order for the TPS from Holy Shield to surpass that of Consecration. This demonstrates just how little threat Paladins actually do compared with other tanks. I also believe the maximum block chance attainable by a Paladin tank in Vanilla is no more than 28%. This means expending all 4 charges against a single target is not very likely.

I do disagree with the build you posted though. In my experience, you are much more limited by your threat than you are by your survivability as a Paladin tank. I would not advice to pick Anticipation as a talent, and instead get Reckoning and One-Handed Weapon Specialization. I also strongly advice 2/2 Improved Judgement for extra TPS.

Because Defcap isnt really needed to tank in Vanilla, not having Anticipation wont hurt that badly. It's also just 10 +defense from 5 full points. That is less than what you can find on a single piece of gear.
I have the same feeling about improved Devotion Aura. Most of the time you will be using Ret Aura, and a Holy Paladin will be providing you with Devotion. In any case, you have the same problem as with Anticipation, which is that 5 full points need to be invested for a total bonus armor of 184.
It's just not worth the points in my opinion.

I would recomend this build instead:
Image

Here you get Reckoning. Every time you get hit you will be doing an additional swing on your next attack. This means extra SoR, and it means an additional chance to trigger Judgement of Wisdom which you sorely need. The effect of the talent also increase dramatically with the number of mobs you are tanking. For 5 mans it often means you pull a group, get crit a few times, and then reckbomb the Skulltarget for 2-3 additional attacks all fueled by SoR for infinite threat on said mob until the pack is dead, leaving you to focus on other mobs.

For a demonstration of what I mean, check out my video from 5 man Stratholme, and notice just how many times I get crit (and thus get extra attacks) throughout the run.
Something to note is that this is private server footage, and I do utilize /sit for extra crits now and then. This wont work in Classic, but the talent will still be very strong just from getting passively crit.


Likewise, the One-Handed Weapon Specialization talent increase the damage dealt by Seal of Righteousness by 10% in addition to increasing your white damage. And because I feel threat is still our strongest issue, this talent will help with that.

I also think dropping some points in Parry to get Guardian's Favor can be perfectly viable. Let's you use your BoP as a pseudo taunt more often, which is a great help in 5man. It also extends the duration of your freedom which can work well on some mobs (Freedom makes you immune to the damage abilities that apply a slowdebuff such as Mindflay from the Inquisitors in Stratholme Living side)

Other than this though, It's obvious you put in a lot of time and effort into this guide, and I have to tell you how good it is to finally see a more objective guide to Paladin tanking be put out there. Great effort.

As for this:

Askalon wrote:
3 months ago
I would say this one requires the most work as I still need to figure out the formula for how Main Hand Weapon speed affects the on-hit damage of SoR.
Perhaps I can help. Dmzor from the Classic Beta has put in a ton of time into researching Paladin mechanics, and came up with a formula for SoR that seem to hold true when checked against old videos.

At 60, the base damage for SoR is 18.675, and the actual formula for SoR damage is:

(((18.675 * WeaponSpeed ) * WeaponTypeCoeffcient) * Talent multipliers) + (Spellpower * 0.1)

WeaponTypeCoeffient is 0.85 for onehander, and 1.2 for twohanders.

Additionally you can multiply the damage of SoR with talents like Improved Seal of Righteousness (multiplier of 1.15) and One-Handed Weapon Specialization for (multiplier of 1.1). Both of these talents are applied BEFORE spellpower.

A 2.4 speed Ironfoe f.ex with 50 spellpower on gear and the talent Improved Seal of Righteousness would be doing
(((18.675 * 2.4 ) * 0.85) * 1.15) + (50 * 0.1) for a total of 48.8 damage.

On private servers this formula is different, and the spellpower coefficient from SoR gets multiplied by weapon speed which is not the case in Classic where the spellpower coefficient is just flat no matter the speed. This is another nerf to our threat in Classic compared with private servers.
I do believe the spellpower coefficient when wearing a twohander is slightly higher than onehander though. Something like 12.5% instead of 10% of Spellpower. Dont quote me on that.

If you want you should join the Discord server. A lot of good information has been gathered there from the Beta about Paladin mechanics, and I think someone like you would fit right in. There's not a whole lot of Prot info there right now, but perhaps you could help with that, or at least find like-minded individuals wanting to contribute to your guide. There's a lot of knowledgeable experienced Protection Paladins in the discord, some of whom have tanked raids.

https://discord.gg/ZfwNmmC

   Selexin Tec Stfuppercut Askalon Linguine
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Nice addition by @Askalon and follow-up from @Holyfrog.
Watching @Holyfrog's video almost makes me want to tank as a Paladin. Almost :lol:
Perhaps this marks the end of the logical fallacy circle jerk :biggrin:

   Holyfrog Stfuppercut
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@Holyfrog Why does your meter misread you as a Warrior? :O

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It's just a bug with the addon because I disconnected. It gets fixed once the mage leave and the addon cycles through the party to update itself.

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@Everyone
Thanks everybody for the positive feedback! I intentionally decided to abruptly join the conversation because after reading the entire thread. I felt like there were moments in which there was meaningful discussion being made, but between those moments, it was getting quickly derailed and turning into drama and harassment, which was getting in the way of making progress (no offense to anybody in particular, we all have our own passions and biases). Like I've said, my guide and research is extremely far from being complete, so I'll definitely be continuously updating them over time.

With regards to the original question of OP:

Gauze wrote:
3 months ago
Is Paladin tanking still a dead end?
I do not think paladin tanking is a dead end. I think it has various use cases that it excels at, like dungeon tanking and AoE farming, asides from being fun, which is why I do it.


@Holyfrog and @Stfuppercut, Thank you for the excellent followups and the invite to the discord server! Definitely looking forward to joining a zealous community on this crusade (geddit cuz paladins)!


Looking forward to keeping up the discussion!

   Holyfrog Stfuppercut
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3 months ago (Beta)
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Stfuppercut wrote:
3 months ago
The conversation needed some fresh blood and this guide can add to the conversation for new guys who want some pally tanking info without the copious amounts of drama that can be found in this thread. I say, WELCOME aboard Askalon!
That is until Duki appears again with his libel, calling Askalon's a "prick" and a "noob" for claiming paladins can't tank Kel'Thuzad and "proving" they can with that awful Onyxia video...

   Stfuppercut
Expect the worst. Hope for the best.
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3 months ago (Beta)
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Xaldron wrote:
3 months ago
Stfuppercut wrote:
3 months ago
The conversation needed some fresh blood and this guide can add to the conversation for new guys who want some pally tanking info without the copious amounts of drama that can be found in this thread. I say, WELCOME aboard Askalon!
That is until Duki appears again with his libel, calling Askalon's a "prick" and a "noob" for claiming paladins can't tank Kel'Thuzad and "proving" it with that awful Onyxia video...
What ever do you mean, that video is LITERAL proof of nothing :biggrin:

   Stfuppercut Xaldron
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3 months ago (Beta)
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killerduki wrote:
3 months ago
No Runes ,No Pots, No JoW , No Innervates = No Consumables dependent!
So the conclusion is simply to be over geared for content in order to make up for the lack of class talents? That video literally shows a Thunderfury wielding Paladin. That is not an everyday Prot Paladin scenario.

Cysthen
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2 months ago (Beta)
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Nice to see you still living in my Shadow 14 years later Duki, stop while you're ahead. I'm getting married in 2 months cba farming 18 consumables 8 hours a week to Tank farm content I don't even play anymore and don't plan on playing Classic. A subscription for a 15 year old game? Seriously? By the way I have a revised guide on my computer that's 4 times as long and has everything anyone would ever want to know, including the bubble debuff add-on that hasn't been anywhere for anyone to find since wow-one shut down. The only thing I'm happy to see is that someone saved my guide because I didn't know it was still out there I had to rewrite it from scratch so I might revise it some now, but that being said it is and will be a definitive Tankadin Guide. It has a Profession Guide, Leveling Guide, and Raid Guide for all dungeons and is REALISTIC with a few WARNING sections if a guild wants to try something retarded like you soaking Patch or any other dumb shit which requires a nearly BiS group on farm content. Which by the way a majority of the BiS gear for Soaking Patch is Tier 3 Healing Gear because it has more armor and stamina. Hateful Strikes don't Crit so you have to just be able to eat it so you gear as a Feral Druid would for that.

As an added bonus heres video I put up from back then.



This was an attempt on a Progression Noth fight where we were short a Tank and they put me on a corner. I stopped recording because I was lagging a lot but as you can see I was able to hold 4 adds which is ridiculous. We killed it the next attempt I had to down rank 3 Exorcism to pull them and rotate with Judgement.

I do believe Prot Paladins can do Progression Content as well. Although I will say I always had BIS prior to that content *cough* and max consumes *cough* In Naxx I was doing Anub Adds and AOE bugs, Noth Corners, The Gauntlet, All Trash, Maexenna Adds for Stun Phases, Gothik Adds, a Faerlina Add and you could maybe Kite Gluth adds with a Zanza but I never bothered because a Mage doesn't need a fucking Zanza to do that. Besides I could heal pretty damn well with Tier 3 even as Prot Spec, which my guide also covers, ya'know having a heal set because during PROGRESSION a realistic person would know you need one (as well as Nightfall) for all the fights you won't be participating in.

Nice to see you still doing you Duki, you still don't understand what I was trying to do though. I always chose wearing good Tank Gear and using a lot of consumes over the convenience of being a shit Tank that took twice as much damage wearing bad gear with spell damage or MP5 and speccing Int over Strength in Holy and losing a significant amount of Block Value. There's something to be said about taking short cuts and being lazy, yeah you might get the job done but no healer is ever going to be impressed.

Peace - Cysthen

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2 months ago (Beta)
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You want to know why you can't find that add-on anymore? Because I fucking made it.

Teldrassil
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2 months ago (Beta)
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Jesus This thread is on fire, not gonna read through it all though lol.

Faendur, the Creepy Dwarf
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2 months ago (Beta)
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I found that argument earlier hilarious as well, talking about using Judge of Crusader and Judge of Wisdom.

I think these people forget there's a 16 debuff limit and you have to squeeze 40 people on it. Which means you won't be using those spells except for on a handful of adds that perhaps are solo Tanked off to the side.

That and it's a waste of Mana to even use those spells half the time because you need to pull with Judge of Righteous for burst threat. Seal of Righteous > Judge > Seal of Righteous (then you're trying tell me in 10 seconds you're going to do this following shit) > Seal of Crusader > Judge > Seal of Righteous. That is super inefficient and 90% of the time is overkill on threat if you're using Weapon Oil and Elixir.

Maybe if you're off tanking you can start with Crusader but you don't have Taunt so you're kind of just a high threat safety net that might never even get the boss if the Warrior doesn't die, that and you're significantly lowering the DPS of the Raid wasting that debuff slot, on top of being very Mana inefficient when you can just use your Seal 28 seconds before you Judgement again.

If anyone is going to use Judge of Crusader it should be a healer so you're not wasting Mana and even then you're wasting a debuff slot as I already stated.

There are some things that yeah sure maybe you can do them but you're usually better off just using consumables and just dropping a few higher rank Consecrations over using Judge of Crusader because it better suits your Raid. If you're even there to begin with because you're just there to add flavor to the Raid.

Paladin Tanks are those packets you put in Water to flavor them, Warriors are the Water. A lot of people don't like Paladin Tanks because they're watching their sugar intake and want to be healthy. They're nice to have around and make a few encounters fun, maybe even a little faster but it's not healthy farming 18 consumables and Raiding 3 nights a week on top of 20 man's on Weekends. I don't drink much Sugar anymore.

That and you won't have a Retribution Paladin for Sanctity Aura. Why? Because the class with the highest Nightfall Uptime is Hunter and believe it or not they're the best for that because they bring Trueshot Aura and can spam Wingclip (and Tranq Shot so you have to run 2 Hunters anyway). Don't believe me? Check out my video of me doing it on Nostalrius.



If you want to know more about Melee Hunters you can go here:
https://forum.nostalrius.org/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=28163

Flask of Supreme Power for threat testing? You will never use a Flask of Supreme Power for Tanking what the fuck is this you already have less Health than Warriors as it is. It's Flask of Titans only. Ever. Maybe if you're in full BiS in a ZG you can use a Supreme Power but I don't see why you would ever ever do that.

Don't mind Duki you guys he's been like this forever and was actually kind of a meme on that first Server. That's why he's still talking about me all I had to do was Google my name and here he is again, it's a Nightmare. He always used Spell Damage Weapons and always had bad English. He's dedicated sure but he's a meme, he's not a role model, and he's not using a fucking 15 Agility Enchant or a Tank Weapon and has 2% less Avoidance. (and 2000 less Health if he's using Supreme Power, and 10% less Strength from talents which translates to less Block Value).

Have fun healing him guys.
Oh and by the way Duki it's been 9 Years not 14.


P.S. Do any of you guys know a good Website that I can post my new Guide on that will be easy to find and will sticky it? Is this the place to do that?

I can host my own Website and not have to deal with comments or Duki which is my preference as I don't care to deal with him. The only issue is that's 20$ a year and granted yes I could pay that it doesn't seem like the best thing to do.

Taking any suggestions. Thanks in advance for the love everybody. I'd like to thank Furious I'm glad to see my old guide is still around on the internet in some capacity. Keep it real and don't let a Paladin gimping himself using a Spell Damage Weapon and Supreme Power in any of your Raids.

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