It is normally stated that Paladins can't tank and Warriors are king, but I am was curious if they can legitimately not tank and holds agro or if they are just less optimal than a warrior? With the knowledge of the classes, raids, easier to optimize your gear, etc. Is Paladin tanking still a dead end? While I mained priest in classic, I did quite a bit of Paladin tanking in BC and really enjoyed it.

Yes, I know warriors are better at tanking, but with the right gear and spec nowadays, is it possible?

Thanks!

The biggest problem pally tanks have in Classic is having no taunt. Warriors and Druids have the ability to force mobs to attack them (aside from some taunt-immune bosses) and become top of that mob's threat table. All tanks have to spend some time getting threat in vanilla, but Pallies have no way of snapping it back if an overeager DPS gets a few crits in a row or whatever.

The second biggest issue is that pallies use mana, and to keep generating threat at a decent pace you'll go oom before the end of all but the shortest fights. And you'll have to drink after every single pull.

This feels like a thread for @Caperfin!

They are less optimal. If you want to tank, play a warrior. If you want to play a paladin tank, play a paladin tank. You will likely cap at dungeon farming. People here can link all the theorycrafting and sources in the world, but securing an endgame tanking role is TOUGH, much tougher as a paladin or druid. You will have far less opportunities to tank as a paladin than you would as a warrior. If you are set on playing as a pally tank, dont let the odds discourage you.

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

5 years ago

They are less optimal. If you want to tank, play a warrior. If you want to play a paladin tank, play a paladin tank. You will likely cap at dungeon farming. People here can link all the theorycrafting and sources in the world, but securing an endgame tanking role is TOUGH, much tougher as a paladin or druid. You will have far less opportunities to tank as a paladin than you would as a warrior. If you are set on playing as a pally tank, dont let the odds discourage you.

I think he's asking about if it is mathematically possible, and being capped at Dungeon farming implies that it is.


As for the original question... how is a Paladin tank going to keep up mana for those long boss fights? Druids and Warriors just need to keep receiving heals, but from what I understand it is very difficult for a Paladin tank to acquire that sort of mana considering the gear isn't built for that at all (could be wrong, but I believe itemization is a huge problem considering Warriors get dedicated tanking tiers).

Latsiv wrote: ↑

5 years ago

The biggest problem pally tanks have in Classic is having no taunt. Warriors and Druids have the ability to force mobs to attack them (aside from some taunt-immune bosses) and become top of that mob's threat table. All tanks have to spend some time getting threat in vanilla, but Pallies have no way of snapping it back if an overeager DPS gets a few crits in a row or whatever.

The second biggest issue is that pallies use mana, and to keep generating threat at a decent pace you'll go oom before the end of all but the shortest fights. And you'll have to drink after every single pull.

Normally for raids, Warriors get time to build rage and get x sunders on the target before DPS jumps in. Would that similar amount of time not be enough for Paladins to keep aggro in raids. Most classes have an aggro reduction skill, but yes, no taunt is kind of a bummer. As I have never played a Paladin before in classic, do they run out of mana that quick in fights trying to keep aggro? Even with the correct gear and talent optimization, they would be oom before any boss is defeated in MC?

Linguine wrote: ↑

5 years ago

I think he's asking about if it is mathematically possible, and being capped at Dungeon farming implies that it is.


As for the original question... how is a Paladin tank going to keep up mana for those long boss fights? Druids and Warriors just need to keep receiving heals, but from what I understand it is very difficult for a Paladin tank to acquire that sort of mana considering the gear isn't built for that at all (could be wrong, but I believe itemization is a huge problem considering Warriors get dedicated tanking tiers).

Yea. We start to get into the territory of what is possible vs what is reasonable. Pallys boast some decent aoe threat. They have decent DPS. They have major mana issues... The reality is that a priest can tank. This will require an absurd amount of heals, the odd wipe and a VERY competent raid watching the threat meters. If your raid facing ANY adversity or ANYONE makes a mistake, the ship sinks. Are these meme specs viable? Yes. Are they optimal? No.

Ask yourself if you want to play a paladin tank or if you want to tank? That will determine if you should play as a warrior or a prot pally.

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Ask yourself if you want to play a paladin tank or if you want to tank? That will determine if you should play as a warrior or a prot pally.

OP: "Yes, I know warriors are better at tanking, but with the right gear and spec nowadays, is it possible?"

OP question wasnt asking if warrior is better, maybe provide some valuable discussion on making a Paladin tank, rather than shutting him down. Don't discourage people from having discussions about something you don't agree with.

Selexin wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Ask yourself if you want to play a paladin tank or if you want to tank? That will determine if you should play as a warrior or a prot pally.

OP: "Yes, I know warriors are better at tanking, but with the right gear and spec nowadays, is it possible?"

OP question wasnt asking if warrior is better, maybe provide some valuable discussion on making a Paladin tank, rather than shutting him down. Don't discourage people from having discussions about something you don't agree with.

Are we going to play the game where you follow me around the forum to bicker in each thread I post on because I bruised your ego? Behave.

@Stfuppercut I read the forums yes. You were being unnecessarily forceful on a post that I was watching to see some cool discussion on. Well done to you, I hope you don't deter any more members from posting.

Selexin wrote: ↑

5 years ago

@Stfuppercut I read the forums yes. You were being unnecessarily forceful on a post that I was watching to see some cool discussion on. Well done to you, I hope you don't deter any more members from posting.

No need to hijack another thread with your emotions, let OP discuss prot pally tanking with the rest of the members. Your issues with me shouldn't overflow into multiple topics. If you have an issue that cant be resolved one on one, or you feel like my posts are hurting you or other members feelings, address that with @teebling in private like an adult.

@Gauze, now that he is done flopping his ego around, there is a serious ret Paladin player on these forms who I would love to see weigh in on the topic. Having trouble remembering the username, female human Paladin signature. They undoubtledy have some experience in playing or theorycrafting prot Paladin.

Mana and threat are going to be the tricky parts, but there are always way to manage that. Caperfin who I mentioned earlier will have some useful insight, he has done the extensive shaman tanking guide which talks a lot about threat and mana management, as it is a very similar problem for shaman and Paladin.

Sorry I can't offer more insight personally, I'll try to track down the Paladin to tag them here.

Edit: @Caspus !!!

Gauze wrote: ↑

5 years ago

but I am was curious if they can legitimately not tank and holds agro or if they are just less optimal than a warrior?

Totally possible, sure warriors are easier to tank with, but you can prot pally tank just fine. Im not sure how likely you will get MT in a raid, but i have been in plenty of raids where the pally is OT without any issues. I have seen Pally's MT certain bosses just fine.

I would be interested in the gear compares, early on, I feel that Pally and Warrior gear will look very similar. But those T1 sets look very different.

Side note, i would like to say anytime you hear someone say "If you want to X, roll a Y" completely ignore it. I have seen all specs in raids, and it works just fine. I personally think its garbage to go into a raid where there are only 5 or 6 specs, and every piece of gear has 8 people fighting for it. Optimal isn't required for vanilla, and I really hope that we can avoid die hard wannabes on launch that refuse to roll with certain specs in dungeons or raids because you aren't running your classes 'designated spec'.

beached wrote: ↑

5 years ago

I would be interested in the gear compares, early on, I feel that Pally and Warrior gear will look very similar. But those T1 sets look very different.

I'm not sure how the prot paly gearing is worked, but could a combo of non class tier raid tanking pieces and some Paladin tier pieces (for intellect) combined provide a nice balance of def/stam/str/int?

So wearing defensive "warrior" items for the brawn alongside some Paladin tier pieces for the brains? I could imagine all jewelery and trinkets/weaps/shield being "warrior" items and a lot of the regular gear being Paladin tier pieces that are well distributed with stats for tanking.

Okay, I'm going to get real and just come out and say if you want a non-warrior tank you'd have been better off rolling Druid.

I've had a very geared Pally (raid geared, but not the raid tank) tank Scholo for me and, even with all those UD and keeping aggro, waiting for him was a huge pain! He was the bottleneck of the group. No one needed as much downtime as him, even the casters and the healer.

Things you're missing: Tanking Tiers, having to choose between flask of wisdom and flask of titans, Lifegiving gem, requiring dwarf priests to give you fear ward, being unable to use your save button because it wipes aggro while warrior's last stand would have been great, no taunt, no flat damage reduction for defensive stance, talent synergy isn't there (Reckoning needs crits, but you don't want to be critted at all as MT!), etc...

Yes, Paladins are very good at AOE tanking but that pretty much means farming dungeons and being pulled out to tank the suppression room in BWL. Boss fights are, for the most part, single target tanking which is where Paladins come at the bottom of the pack.

If you are happy with Dungeon farming and the Suppression room, roll prot pally, if not, do not count on getting further.

You need an entire guild to get behind you and it will likely not happen, even if it was mathematically possible which the odds lean towards no.

EDIT: Normally I am a big proponent of playing what you enjoy despite obstacles (even Druid @Selexin, been playing a lot of AB and I see why you like Druid), but it doesn't sound like that is what you're getting at here. You don't know if you love or would even enjoy classic pally, and the class changed a lot when BC came around. I played on in BC, and it is subtly, yet distinctly, different in the expansion.

Linguine wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Okay, I'm going to get real and just come out and say if you want a non-warrior tank you'd have been better off rolling Druid.

Yea. I mean, its tough to discourage someone from trying to play something that they are interested in, but you need to identify your motivation to play a pally tank. If raid tanking is the end goal, OP should just roll a warrior. Pallys can tank 5 mans. They are decent for AoE tanking, but they will still be slower in 5 mans because they constantly have to sit and drink. In almost every circumstance they will not be optimal. Your opportunities will be reduced and you will work twice as hard for half of the reward. Players will outline specific encounters where you can shine, but understand that the other tanks can ALSO tank in those circumstances, you may not be able to tank in other circumstances. This means that it is a HUGE guild investment, for a very small return. Their are holy pally/prot specs that can function for some offtanking. A feral is still preferable in this roll.

The downside is we dont want to discourage someone from trying something. We also dont want to encourage someone to invest time into something that will be dismissed by the majority of players. We can sit in our little Classic bubble all day stroking one another and encouraging eachother because vanilla isnt about min/maxing!!!! But then youre going to have to roll on a server full of random players, and we wont be there, and you will be a prot pally... a very very lonely prot pally.

Gauze wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Normally for raids, Warriors get time to build rage and get x sunders on the target before DPS jumps in. Would that similar amount of time not be enough for Paladins to keep aggro in raids. Most classes have an aggro reduction skill, but yes, no taunt is kind of a bummer. As I have never played a Paladin before in classic, do they run out of mana that quick in fights trying to keep aggro? Even with the correct gear and talent optimization, they would be oom before any boss is defeated in MC?

you mentioned the right gear, and that's one problem - paladin tanks have small mana pools because good tank gear is light on int, especially in early phases (I remember a set from Scholomance I think, but don't remember if it was actually any good). this is a problem with a lot of hybrid specs - the itemization wasn't super supportive in vanilla. there's consumables and enchants and stuff that can help with this part, but pally tanks are casting spells constantly, and won't be passively regenerating any mana aside from whatever they can get in mp5 gear/consumables.

as far as initial aggro, i remember reading somewhere that one of the quirks of paladin tanking was part of their version of "2 sunders" is the mobs all hitting them and getting reflected damage from their blocks and aura and stuff, so things like cheap shot or other stuns can really mess up the early threat. as well, the paladin could just give salvation to the DPS instead of wisdom or might. and there's always blessing of protection - not just a way to troll the melee DPS for prot pallies. i guess it's the closest thing they have to a taunt, but it only works on melee mobs, and if you don't pass them in threat by the time it wears off....

as far as raids like MC go, as i mentioned before, a lot of the pally's threat is from the mobs hitting them and getting holy damage reflected back, and stuff in MC can hit pretty hard. there's probably a sweet spot where the paladin has tanky enough gear to survive the pulls and maintain aggro for certain fights, but it wouldn't be while progressing - you'd basically already need to have the gear from the raid to survive tanking it, I think. maybe gear from the next tier, in addition to all your usual consumables.

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Linguine wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Okay, I'm going to get real and just come out and say if you want a non-warrior tank you'd have been better off rolling Druid.

Yea. I mean, its tough to discourage someone from trying to play something that they are interested in, but you need to identify your motivation to play a pally tank. If raid tanking is the end goal, OP should just roll a warrior. Pallys can tank 5 mans. They are decent for AoE tanking, but they will still be slower in 5 mans because they constantly have to sit and drink. In almost every circumstance they will not be optimal. Your opportunities will be reduced and you will work twice as hard for half of the reward. Players will outline specific encounters where you can shine, but understand that the other tanks can ALSO tank in those circumstances, you may not be able to tank in other circumstances. This means that it is a HUGE guild investment, for a very small return. Their are holy pally/prot specs that can function for some offtanking. A feral is still preferable in this roll.

The downside is we dont want to discourage someone from trying something. We also dont want to encourage someone to invest time into something that will be dismissed by the majority of players. We can sit in our little Classic bubble all day stroking one another and encouraging eachother because vanilla isnt about min/maxing!!!! But then youre going to have to roll on a server full of random players, and we wont be there, and you will be a prot pally... a very very lonely prot pally.

I'm investing a lot of stock into the fact that OP has never played a classic pally. I hate playing ret pally in vanilla. The spec feels so dull. And yet, somehow, I played ret pally in every expansion until I quit retail starting with BC!

The point is, the class he wants to play practically doesn't even exist yet. If he wants to try anyway he shouldn't expect to even enjoy his class or his spec since it may feel completely half baked with a leg removed and a wooden one instead.

Linguine wrote: ↑

5 years ago

The point is, the class he wants to play practically doesn't even exist yet. If he wants to try anyway he shouldn't expect to even enjoy his class or his spec since it may feel completely half baked with a leg removed and a wooden one instead.

With a leg removed, with a resource bar completely empty, with very little gear optimized for him, playing in a raid that will throw him some left overs as the local meme spec, where he will likely be asked to respec weekly, in a role that is designed to hold threat with no taunt, being completely dismissed or laughed at by a gigantic portion of the playerbase, requiring twice the consumes to play........ all of this so you can tank 5 mans slower than either of the other two tanks because you are drinking after every 1-2 pulls.

The effort is worth it IF you specifically want to play a prot pally. If you dont, you will be very disappointed. If you are fixated on rolling prot pally, know that this will be an uphill battle and understand the effort it will require. Dont expect handouts because you will need to earn your spot and you will work twice as hard to do that as anyone else.

edit: If posts like this discourage a player from trying to play a spec like prot pally, they werent going to be able to deal with the feedback they would have received from their fellow players throughout the course of their leveling anyhow. I'd rather be the bad guy now and let OP hear some real talk before he gets his hopes up and invests his valuable time into something that wont be valued by his fellow players. If comments like this only invigorate your desire to play as a meme and this comment acts as fuel for your ambition, you are likely the right fit for a meme spec and should start stacking up on witty comebacks for the naysayers.

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Linguine wrote: ↑

5 years ago

The point is, the class he wants to play practically doesn't even exist yet. If he wants to try anyway he shouldn't expect to even enjoy his class or his spec since it may feel completely half baked with a leg removed and a wooden one instead.

With a leg removed, with a resource bar completely empty, with very little gear optimized for him, playing in a raid that will throw him some left overs as the local meme spec, where he will likely be asked to respec weekly, in a role that is designed to hold threat with no taunt, being completely dismissed or laughed at by a gigantic portion of the playerbase, requiring twice the consumes to play........ all of this so you can tank 5 mans slower than either of the other two tanks because you are drinking after every 1-2 pulls.

The effort is worth it IF you specifically want to play a prot pally. If you dont, you will be very disappointed. If you are fixated on rolling prot pally, know that this will be an uphill battle and understand the effort it will require. Dont expect handouts because you will need to earn your spot and you will work twice as hard to do that as anyone else.

Haha, made me chuckle with that first line.

I've been thinking though, what would OP likely enjoy playing in vanilla if he enjoyed prot pally in BC?

@Gauze What was it specifically that you enjoyed about BC prot pally? The AOE? The tanking? Versatility? We could always suggest things for you to try out or look into to see if they're enjoyable. I'd just hate to see you spend all that time leveling or getting pre-raid gear for something that may not even be fun for you.

Hey folks, huge thanks for everybody's input and comments. Read through them all and a lot of good points were discussed.

@Linguine, I have not played WoW in many years, last time was in Wrath. So what I am remembering might be a bit off. I just remembered having a blast with it in BC being able to AoE tank quite well, being very involved with all the different abilities you had available, and the spells themselves were just a blast to use (they also looked pretty awesome). While I realize most of those abilities will not be around in classic, the old memories just really sparked my desire to look closer into rolling one in Classic to see if it might actually be possible.

However, after reading through everything in this thread I do not think it will be a path I take as I will have limited play time (family) and will most likely aim for a more casual guild which I am guessing would make this even more difficult. While it does seem like it is technically possible, the playtime and commitment to overcome the potential handicap might be a bit too high to really make it work.

Gauze wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Hey folks, huge thanks for everybody's input and comments. Read through them all and a lot of good points were discussed.

@Linguine, I have not played WoW in many years, last time was in Wrath. So what I am remembering might be a bit off. I just remembered having a blast with it in BC being able to AoE tank quite well, being very involved with all the different abilities you had available, and the spells themselves were just a blast to use (they also looked pretty awesome). While I realize most of those abilities will not be around in classic, the old memories just really sparked my desire to look closer into rolling one in Classic to see if it might actually be possible.

However, after reading through everything in this thread I do not think it will be a path I take as I will have limited play time (family) and will most likely aim for a more casual guild which I am guessing would make this even more difficult. While it does seem like it is technically possible, the playtime and commitment to overcome the potential handicap might be a bit too high to really make it work.

Your remembrance probably isn't off at all! I've heard many say the same about BC prot pallies. I leveled prot pally in BC, and even that was lots of fun.

If you do get the chance, I think this video will help shed some light on prot pally tanking in vanilla Gauze.



Most of this was covered throughout the thread, but the information is a bit more credible coming from someone with a lot of prot pally experience. For context, the video you will be watching has gameplay of a VERY geared prot paladin clearing a very entry level piece of content and you can still see the mana issues that were discussed. He has some interesting insight on gearing as well.

Bear in mind that this footage is from private. So it is entirely possible that prot paladins will be the BEEZ KNEEZ in Classic, if private values were WAY off... But lets be real, this will probably be your reality give or take a little inaccuracy here or there.

edit: It's really funny to think about the juxtaposition of some of these meme specs. Most of these specs are inherently suboptimal but require a player to min/max in an effort to make them viable? So you have to be a min/maxer and intentionally choose a suboptimal spec and then min/max just to become relevant. A really strange thought. I guess this is why they appeal to such a small percentage of the playerbase? I didnt realize how deep the tanking meta goes for prot pallies... As I watch this video, its so much worse than I had imagined.

5 man tanking: Doable, but with more breaks (mana issues for Prot pally) vs. other tanks. You don't have any o-shit buttons, also you don't have any taunts. You have no issues with short fights for aggro, but longer fights will mean that you'll go OOM. OOM = no threat

Raids: Uhh.. Not really, no. I mean you can tank the trash probably, but bosses, no. The largest issue is lack of mana regen, NOT taunt (bosses before Naxx (and AQ40?) are taunt immune anyway.

There simply isn't enough gear (mp5 plates) and no mana regen talents like in TBC for Vanilla Paladins unfortunately.

They are really great for dungeons for undead mobs though, so if you're not going to raid you can still have tons of fun / value.

One of the problems of paladin tanking I could see is when raiding, is not strange that the aggro on adds sometimes changes because dps's go too far or you are not paying the appropriate attention, if an add in a raid starts dancing around dps's, that's trouble. And if you don't have the means to take back control of that mob (because you are out of mana, because you can't taunt him, or because you simply can't generate that much threat). You all are gonna wipe.
In raids mistakes happen, and if you don't have the tools to fix them, you all are not going to advance that night.
Maybe a pally in tier 3 can brute force tank Molten Core with no problems, but I seriously doubt a pally can tank Naxxrammas with no issues (the very moment someone makes an aggro related mistake, you probably are in trouble).