teebling wrote: ↑

6 years ago

Inb4 Hardiness

Selexin wrote: ↑

6 years ago

teebling wrote: ↑

6 years ago

Inb4 Hardiness

He seen it coming! He knew what was about to happen... I was wriggling my hands in anticipation. This is quite literally my favorite Classic wow debate topic.

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

6 years ago

No. You will experience more stuns than fears. Hardiness would provide higher value. That isnt an option though because youre a mage. Mages can be orcs.

You do remember that Hardiness doesn't guarantee that you will resist a stun, right?

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

6 years ago

Blink the charge, get the intercept. Blink the cheapshot, get the gouge. Players arent confined to one stun. Its great that you have an answer for a stun. You will need it, because there are a lot of them.

Intercept gets an ice block and then a frost nova and now you are frozen and eating frostbolts.
A mages can't be orcs. I understood this the first time you brought it up. Understand this: Cats can't be fish and vice versa. Yet both live on earth. One explains that breathing air is more valuable while the other makes the case for pushing water past its gills. Cat dies if it's forced to breathe water, fish dies if it's forced to breathe air. Which is more valuable, water or air?

Cletus wrote: ↑

6 years ago

You do remember that Hardiness doesn't guarantee that you will resist a stun, right?

Correct, its a 30% with no internal cooldown. Cheap shot, gouge, mace specialization, kidney shot... Vanish and get all those again... Tidal charm... grenade... Over the course of a 1-2 min engagement with a rogue you'll face upwards of a dozen stuns, most of which he will need to best you (especially as a mage). The rogue vs mage matchup may actually be the most compelling matchup in the game. If you had hardiness though, it would be pretty lame.

I use rogue as an example here, but we could do the same with warrior... Charge(each time he drops combat - during your iceblock etc), intercept every 30 secs, mace spec, unstoppable force (most warriors will be wielding this), tidal charm, concus, grenades... They have 1 fear on a 2 min cd? They will dump about 8-12 stuns on you before you feel that fear. Then the fear is out for another 2 mins.

Cletus wrote: ↑

6 years ago

Understand this: Cats can't be fish and vice versa. Yet both live on earth. One explains that breathing air is more valuable while the other makes the case for pushing water past its gills. Cat dies if it's forced to breathe water, fish dies if it's forced to breathe air. Which is more valuable, water or air?

I'm just gonna leave this alone so we don't deviate too far from the conversation.

Hardiness is the highest value pvp ability in the game. You can make a hypothetical scenario where other racials will outvalue hardiness. Over the course of playing your character for hundreds of hours, hardiness will serve you better the majority of the time. If mages could be Orcs, knowledgeable pvpers seeking to min/max would play as orcs. If your pvp trinket didnt have an answer for fear, I could see someone making a case for undead mages though. Again, mages cant be orcs though.

I see the argument on both sides of the coin, because I have extensive experience with both.

I played UD priest hard core PVE style. Having the fear breaker in PVE was huge, and situationally helpful (especially when dueling Cletus on his rogue) WoTF was massive for me until I got the gladiator medallion, then it was a force multiplier because my trinket got me out of stun. So, situational, but still useful.

Now onto orc, I played an Orc Warrior hardcore PVP (LTG) alongside Cletus' mage. Hardiness and the blood fury racial came into account. I had a fear break built into my abilities from Zerker rage so I could mitigate that and I employed the hardiness exactly how it was meant to be; a passive security blanket.

So I have extensively benefitted from both and I think our arguments here can be better categorized. Best "on use" racial and best "passive racial" could and should be taken into account.

The best part about on use, is it is there precisely when you need it to be. *obviously not if on CD* and the worst part about a passive is you wont know when and where it kicks in. Which is what I believe I am interpreting from Cletus' reasoning.

I am a huge fan of both and honestly really wanted to make an Orc Priest in Classic to stack stun resistances, but it just isnt a thing. Lol. Would have been a godly PVP machine, blending both of my original characters strengths under 1 murderer.

You both have valid points and I believe it has generated a lot of worthwhile discussion that we can all theory craft off of to tailor them for our own specific needs.

And apologies for no fancy ability hyperlinking, I'm on my phone and havent learned how to do all that fancy stuff yet. Lol

Dolamite wrote: ↑

6 years ago

I see the argument on both sides of the coin, because I have extensive experience with both.

I played UD priest hard core PVE style. Having the fear breaker in PVE was huge...

Agreed 100%. If this thread accounted for PVE in the slightest, we would be having a very different conversation. But since were talking strictly PvP, that just doesn't factor in at all. Realistically though, PvE will factor into A LOT of players choices.

Dolamite wrote: ↑

6 years ago

So I have extensively benefitted from both and I think our arguments here can be better categorized. Best "on use" racial and best "passive racial" could and should be taken into account.

My argument is a blanket argument for overall best value. Which will serve you better over the course of your PvP experiences on horde. The answer is Orc. The reason why I continued to point out that Cletus could not be a mage and an Orc simultaneously was because his best counter argument to mine, was to propose a scenario that wasn't even possible; playing an orc mage. If the best argument we can muster, is an impossible hypothetical, I think it strengthens the case for the value of hardiness.

Dolamite wrote: ↑

6 years ago

The best part about on use, is it is there precisely when you need it to be. *obviously not if on CD* and the worst part about a passive is you wont know when and where it kicks in. Which is what I believe I am interpreting from Cletus' reasoning.

Agreed. The counter argument to that would be that the shear value of hardiness outvalues WoTF consistently, doesnt have an internal cooldown and doesnt use a global cooldown. It is in every essence, better (when compared at a broad level). However, if both racials were equally valuable, and Hardiness was a 100% stun break that was an uncontrolled passive with a 2 min internal cooldown, WoTF would have clear supremacy. That is not the case. When we disregard hypothetical arguments and focus on what is, we can begin to see the value of hardiness.

Dolamite wrote: ↑

6 years ago

I am a huge fan of both and honestly really wanted to make an Orc Priest in Classic to stack stun resistances, but it just isnt a thing. Lol. Would have been a godly PVP machine, blending both of my original characters strengths under 1 murderer.

Orc Priest would be insane. Would be aesthetically cool and would have some pretty interesting synergy.

Dolamite wrote: ↑

6 years ago

You both have valid points and I believe it has generated a lot of worthwhile discussion that we can all theory craft off of to tailor them for our own specific needs.

These conversations are a blast! Speaking from a min/max perspective doesn't consider your individual preferences. If you prefer undead, what are you doing here??? No need to justify your choices! Play what you want!!! My post was simply to direct a player who is asking a min/max question in the appropriate direction. A lot of misinformation about WoTF continues to get spread, and my aim is to make sure that those who want to min/max, don't make an irreversible and regrettable character creation choice.

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

6 years ago

Which will serve you better over the course of your PvP experiences on horde. The answer is Orc. The reason why I continued to point out that Cletus could not be a mage and an Orc simultaneously was because his best counter argument to mine, was to propose a scenario that wasn't even possible; playing an orc mage. If the best argument we can muster, is an impossible hypothetical, I think it strengthens the case for the value of hardiness.

Propose a scenario that isn't even possible? Like, being a mage in PvP isn't possible? I'm not suggesting people create Orc mages either, I haven't been this whole time. How dense are you?

Cletus you are talking about how good the racial is for one class, which can't even be orc, while the thread is about overall best racials in the game. At least I said that it is not hard cut orc is always the best even if they easily is the best overall, Mage is one of few cases where orc racials ain't the best but again they can't even pick orc so no real reason to argue against them.

Stfuppercut wrote:The reasons why your years of experience would lead you to believe that WoTF is better could be for a variety of reasons... Perhaps you played Undead more than Orc? Perhaps you have primarily played horde so you arent aware of the impact of playing against hardiness? Or perhaps the onuse makes the validity of WoTF more apparent to you. Your confirmation bias will lead you to make note of events rather than non-events. Orc resists are often not noticed by players who are less aware, despite their unmatched impact

I've been trying to explain this to a friend for around a month now but they don't acknowledge it, they get into arguments about it with me to this day.

Cletus wrote: Intercept gets an ice block and then a frost nova and now you are frozen and eating frostbolts.
A mages can't be orcs. I understood this the first time you brought it up. Understand this: Cats can't be fish and vice versa. Yet both live on earth. One explains that breathing air is more valuable while the other makes the case for pushing water past its gills. Cat dies if it's forced to breathe water, fish dies if it's forced to breathe air. Which is more valuable, water or air?

What the hell is this analogy?

Swans wrote: ↑

6 years ago

I've been trying to explain this to a friend for around a month now but they don't acknowledge it, they get into arguments about it with me to this day.

Yea. I think a big portion of why players get so hungup on WoTF is because it feels good. You have control of the ability and when you push that ability you get feedback. That feedback feels meaningful. You aren't keeping track of how many players you are fighting that DON'T have a fear, nor are you focusing on how many stuns are taking place in contrast to how many fears are. Similarly, most Orcs aren't counting their resists. There is no doubt that WoTF feels like a really powerful ability, and it is in its own right.

Swans wrote: ↑

6 years ago

What the hell is this analogy?

I left that alone...

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

6 years ago

Swans wrote: ↑

6 years ago

I've been trying to explain this to a friend for around a month now but they don't acknowledge it, they get into arguments about it with me to this day.

Yea. I think a big portion of why players get so hungup on WoTF is because it feels good. You have control of the ability and when you push that ability you get feedback. That feedback feels meaningful. You aren't keeping track of how many players you are fighting that DON'T have a fear, nor are you focusing on how many stuns are taking place in contrast to how many fears are. Similarly, most Orcs aren't counting their resists. There is no doubt that WoTF feels like a really powerful ability, and it is in its own right.

Yeah I played on private servers for a lot on Horde (non orc) and never realized how strong Hardiness is until I had to play an Alliance Rogue, it's so good it hurts. I refuse to play Alliance Rogue because of it. You basically lose to everyone who is Orc for no reason other than that they picked Orc.

Swans wrote: ↑

6 years ago

Yeah I played on private servers for a lot on Horde (non orc) and never realized how strong Hardiness is until I had to play an Alliance Rogue, it's so good it hurts. I refuse to play Alliance Rogue because of it. You basically lose to everyone who is Orc for no reason other than that they picked Orc.

Yeah. Pretty much this ^. If you have two equally skilled players with equal gear and engi etc... Hardiness is an unreal game changer. Its actually broken.

Topic of Discussion: Racial comparison in relation to PVP. - Just my thoughts.
Warning: Wall-O-Text inc...
Edit: Splitting this because it keeps omitting sections around the Paladin's portion.
Part 1 of 2.

https://www.wowhead.com/spell=7744/will-of-the-forsaken 5 second immunity to charm, fear, and sleep, (also removes existing auras) 2-minute CD. VS https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=20573/hardiness passive 25% stun resistance.

Both phenomenal abilities, in their own right, and they definitely shine in specific settings. But lets get on with it.

Being an Undead Priest main with https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=14791 ... kable-will I will have the best of both worlds, albeit slightly reduced from [url]https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=20573/hardiness's 25%, but I'm ok with that. I would absolutely play an Orc over Undead if I had the option for that as a Priest. (double dipping on the stun resist) Sadly it just isn't an option, can't imagine why... lol This time around I am going to have 1 toon for both PVE and PVP, so there won't be any swapping outside of speccing Healbot to Shadow and back.

There have been very good bits of info throughout this thread and I've enjoyed some old school theorycrafting since finding it. As much as I dug through the Google-Machine this evening, I could not find metrics of testing on Hardiness. Though I did find evidence on the fact that Classic WoW did not have Proc-Per-Minute (PPM) regulation. So a drought was a drought and a proc-spree (remembering WF-swordspec-WF-WF killing spree's, ahh good times...) was just really good luck. But essentially a 1 in 4 chance per RNG interaction is pretty beastly.

Taking away from the "on call" reliability of a stun from an opponent can be a morale killer. They're doing their best to try and set it up for the perfect CC and they get a RESIST ... really changes the momentum on the battlefield. Whereas, the predictability of attacking an Undead and knowing that the first https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=6215/fear isn't going to land allows the enemy to mentally prepare for this and strategize for it.

I fully get the discussion and perspectives provided here and I do have to agree after a bit of my own confirmation through research, https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=20573/hardiness is the clear winner here. Due to its unpredictable nature and 2nd/3rd order effects of completely demoralizing and ruining a winning strategy.

Here is my interpretation of how I approach these fights with the stun resist, whether its 15% or 25%; (I think me having the 15% resist as a Priest made https://www.wowhead.com/spell=7744/will-of-the-forsaken feel more useful because I did have some semblance of both.)

https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=8643/kidney-shot 5 combo points for a 6 second stun, 20 second CD. A great momentum changer and setup ability that can also increase damage done to the Rogue's target if talented with https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=14176 ... idney-shot. Resisting this changes the Rogues overall approach while also saving you from that improved damage.

https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=1833/cheap-shot 4 second stun, requires stealth. Resisting this changes the nature of the fight from the get-go and could potentially force the Rogue into burning a https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=1857/vanish (as if it was going to work anyway, /lawl working as intended) to try and land the follow up https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=1833/cheap-shot OR just break contact and re-engage later. "Other than that one fight every five minutes, I'm a free honor kill" -Mute

https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=100/charge 1 second stun, 15 second CD. Sometimes getting that initial stun is necessary to land a https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=7373/hamstring, resisting that allows your opponent to get out of range quickly which completely negates your "uptime" and ability to fight.

https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=20252/intercept 3 second stun, 30 second CD, same issues as mentioned for that initial https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=100/charge but could be for your follow up due to an initial resist. Food for thought.

res wrote: ↑

6 years ago

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I was just gonna post this! Regeneration is S+ tier.

Part 2 of 2.
https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=10308 ... of-justice 6 second stun, 1-minute CD. Resisting this removes that window for the Paladin to get a quick heal or two off on themselves or forces them to use their https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=20066 ... 6/blackout 5 talent points, 10% chance, 3 second stun, no CD. This is one of the best talents for a Shadowpriest in PVP (in my own personal opinion). It allows for a 10% chance per dot tick or offensive spell cast to stun the target. Really, and unexpectedly, can change the entire profile of a 1v1 fight or 2v1 for that matter. The 25% really reduced the overall proc-chance that the Priest has. Sort of levels the playing field for the "1v1 gods."

https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=12360/impact 5 talent points, 10% chance, 2 second stun, no CD. *See Priest's comments, but less effective due to a reduced amount of dots ticking. But the Mage has a few tricks they can employ to re-establish the distance between them and their target. Priest's have to get a little more creative in this regard.

https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=5211/bash 2 second stun, 1 min CD, requires Bear Form or Dire Bear Form; can be improved by 1 second for 2 talent points in https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=16941/brutal-impact. Very short stun, but one of the few that a Druid has outside of CC'ing withhttps://classic.wowhead.com/spell=9853/entangling-roots and https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=16810/natures-grasp which can be improved upon with https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=17249 ... ures-grasp. The stun is situational as if its NOT a Guardian, the druid has to spend mana to shapeshift into another form to cast it. Really puts the pressure on the Druid when you resist one or two of these for the duration of the fight.

https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=9005/pounce 2 second stun, must be in cat form, stealthed, and behind the target. Gives the Druid a chance to start off the fight on their own terms for a quick time. Resisting that can cause them to burn a CD to try and make up for that resist in attempts to regain their element of surprise or escape.

https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=20549/war-stomp I won't have to worry about this one as much and I'm definitely not offering tips to beating my Cow-Friends to the Alliance... /s

In Summary "And there was much rejoicing." This is just my analysis and how I frame my mind when I look into using racials as a min/max element that can be paired or countered towards my own talent build, I hope this has not been a waste of everyone's eyesight and has generated a bit more thought towards the whole "stun" game that we find ourselves in from time to time.

Dolamite wrote: ↑

6 years ago

Both phenomenal abilities, in their own right, and they definitely shine in specific settings.

Agree with this.

Dolamite wrote: ↑

6 years ago

I would absolutely play an Orc over Undead if I had the option for that as a Priest.

My man!

Dolamite wrote: ↑

6 years ago

Whereas, the predictability of attacking an Undead and knowing that the first https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=6215/fear isn't going to land allows the enemy to mentally prepare for this and strategize for it.

I'll go one step further. It gives me the opportunity to bait out that cooldown. A quick fake cast fear as a lock and then cancelling it as they pop WoTF makes me giggle so much my sides hurt.

Dolamite wrote: ↑

6 years ago

I fully get the discussion and perspectives provided here and I do have to agree after a bit of my own confirmation through research, https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=20573/hardiness is the clear winner here. Due to its unpredictable nature and 2nd/3rd order effects of completely demoralizing and ruining a winning strategy.

Welcome to the team dude! There are enough Orcs for everyone! All aboard!!!!

Love the work you did focusing on rogues and warriors, and you're right Hardiness absolutely demoralizes these two classes which will both have a MASSIVE population. But it also works against Ret paladins. Rets win condition hinges on landing that stun and its on a long CD, that quick resist completely nulifies a Ret. It works against Spriests. Spriest fear cost 15% base mana, they arent spamming that on CD in most cases, which means they are relying more on downranked shadow word pain for blackout procs. Hunters as beast master OR as MM both have stuns. Fire mage impact... Druids! A tauren druid has SO many stuns! No fears though. The list goes on and on. Hardiness is a slam dunk ability. Its just too powerful to be honest. Then lets add engineering to the mix. Competent PvPers will be using a TON of nades. If you are choosing a racial FOR PvP you should be choosing it with the intention of beating the best players. The best players will have engineering and ~30% resist chance on those KEY grenade placements is such an advantage. How about unstoppable force? I dont think this weapon gets enough attention during discussions about hardiness. Alliance PvP will be FILLED with warriors and rets wielding unstoppable force. This is THE welfare epic 2hander that the majority of your level 60 opponents will be wielding. The warriors who do, will be coupling that with mace specialization. SOOOOOOOOO many stuns!

edit: oops, should have waited for part 2.

It did it again, Paladin's section eats up half of the following section. I knew I should have saved it on a Word.doc with the battle that @teebling is fighting on our behalf!

I said some stuff about priest. you get the point. LOL

Undead ‘Cannibalism’

Cause if killing your enemies weren’t enough, now you can eat them as well

jodon wrote: ↑

6 years ago

It depends on class but overall my tier list goes like this:

S tier: orc
A tier: undead, gnome
B tier: dwarf
C tier: Tauren, nelf
D tier: human
F tier: troll

u sure? don't mind me pls, but am just curious from where did u got this info. there are sources on vanilla that contradict with that

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

6 years ago

Cletus wrote: ↑

6 years ago

WotF beats Hardiness and here's why: WotF is an on-use ability that can both prevent and end Fear, Charm, and Sleep effects with a guaranteed result (as far as I know) for up to 5 seconds. Hardiness gives a 25% chance to resist only stun and while 25% (on top of additional stun resist) is a lot it still leaves a chance for you to be cc'd.

snip

We believed WoTF was superior in Vanilla. Many uninformed players STILL believe that on private. It's just not the case.

Great writeup. I would just add that there are very few Warlocks in general (second only to Druids on most servers) and even fewer Alliance Warlocks in the aggregate. Hardiness wins out for PVP applications when you can go Orc 100%. The real arguments come into play when you are comparing races for PVE, PVP, and Farming applications. An example being an Orc or Troll Hunter. Troll wins out for PVE and Farming imo, while Orcs win PVP. What about an all around Hunter that will dabble in all facets of the game? This is where choosing a race becomes more difficult.

Oh lawd, what is you doin baby
Reading through the posts like:

Hardiness is over rated, stuns dont last super long anyway and have diminishing returns.

Best racial depends on the class, but i like undeads WoTF for melee classes and troll’s berserking for mage/hunter

almarsguides wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Hardiness is over rated, stuns dont last super long anyway and have diminishing returns.

Best racial depends on the class, but i like undeads WoTF for melee classes and troll’s berserking for mage/hunter

Hardiness overrated.
Michael Jordan overrated.
Pulp Fiction overrated.
Jesus overrated.

Jpy wrote: ↑

5 years ago

almarsguides wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Hardiness is over rated, stuns dont last super long anyway and have diminishing returns.

Best racial depends on the class, but i like undeads WoTF for melee classes and troll’s berserking for mage/hunter

Hardiness overrated.
Michael Jordan overrated.
Pulp Fiction overrated.
Jesus overrated.