There is no argument. Convo done.

all need BoE is the most fair way or else there will be all kinds of shenanigans.

for many items only suckers equip them. the Gold is more valuable and will benefit their progression more.

need is the only way to protect against ninjas.

wonderland wrote: ↑

6 years ago

all need BoE is the most fair way or else there will be all kinds of shenanigans.

for many items only suckers equip them. the Gold is more valuable and will benefit their progression more.

need is the only way to protect against ninjas.

I get the fact that it might cause some problems, but if we all need on BOE it will ruin the game for the folks that actually wants to equip the gear that drops.

Lassekaae wrote: ↑

6 years ago

Yes, it could be their epic mount but it could also be a huge upgrade for a person.

There you go, you answered your own question. All 5 members contributed equally to kill the mob, and all 5 members gain equal value from the item. Therefore it is unfair to claim that just one of those 5 players is arbitrarily entitled to the item.

Anyone who expects the other 4 members of the group to inexplicably shower them with loot is not going to be welcome to my (or most peoples') groups. Sadly that seems to be a lot of people in this thread.

Leave the entitlement at the door for the most enjoyable classic experience.

People voting yes; where do we draw the line then? Can everyone roll on flask recipes, leatherworking patterns, etc.?

I voted yes because the system works as intended. Intentions of the party may differ.

Personally I'd identify if we plan on all needing on BoEs to make it as fair as possible. BoE's serve a purpose for multiple reasons such as, gold, upgrades, and looks.

I think as long as everyone's on the same page before the dungeon starts, it's fine.

Gut instinct was no, but at the same time something that's a BoE upgrade for one person could be sold by another to buy a BoE upgrade for themselves. Everyone "needs" money.

Generally though I think you should assume people are voting based on whether they'll use the item unless everyone agrees otherwise.

Griznak wrote: ↑

6 years ago

People voting yes; where do we draw the line then? Can everyone roll on flask recipes, leatherworking patterns, etc.?

Again, assuming party consensus, I would say there is no line to draw. All BoEs roll need. Consider the following situation (it will apply to all scenarios, crafting as well): You are in a five man group. A nice hunter BoE bow drops. It's an upgrade for the hunter. Its worth 50 gold on the AH. How much is it worth to the non-hunters? Obviously its worth 50g to them. If it is worth more than 50g to the hunter then maybe we have an argument that it should go to him. But is it really worth more than 50g to him? Then why hasn't he farmed the gold and bought it off the AH? In fact it probably isn't worth more than 50g to him and even if he won it, he would be better off selling it on the AH and buying necessary skills or what not. This doesn't even factor in the added benefit of reducing ninja looting.

Honestly sad that the reddit folks found their way to this forum as well, this new attitude is a real shame.

Skuggfax wrote: ↑

6 years ago

Honestly sad that the reddit folks found their way to this forum as well, this new attitude is a real shame.

Silly comment, as if BoE needing originated from reddit. It's a WoW issue not a website oriented issue.


The design of the system is working as intended. As others have said before, communication is key. This isn't a LFD issue, this is a community issue between your 4 other members of the party. So while everyone can kumbaya vote what they feel, it doesn't change how the system works.

Generally speaking, be sure to talk and commune with your fellow server and guild mates. This is how you find like-minded players, create a fun experience, and atmosphere avoiding toxicity.

Default wrote: ↑

6 years ago

Skuggfax wrote: ↑

6 years ago

Honestly sad that the reddit folks found their way to this forum as well, this new attitude is a real shame.

Silly comment, as if BoE needing originated from reddit. It's a WoW issue not a website oriented issue.


The design of the system is working as intended. As others have said before, communication is key. This isn't a LFD issue, this is a community issue between your 4 other members of the party. So while everyone can kumbaya vote what they feel, it doesn't change how the system works.

Generally speaking, be sure to talk and commune with your fellow server and guild mates. This is how you find like-minded players, create a fun experience, and atmosphere avoiding toxicity.

I was just referring to the reddit post mentioned earlier in the thread where the overwhelming majority seemed to be of the opinion that you should just need on everything.

I suppose I never paid any attention to it back then given that I was just playing the game, not looking at forums. I guess I should just count myself lucky that I played on such a great server where the idea always was that you only need on things you actually need and intend to use. Maybe it's also a difference between EU and NA and not just server specific? I'm not sure.

That's just the experience I had in all pugs, it was simply an unspoken rule, ninja looting was still very rare, I can't even remember a single time where I encountered a bad ninja looter. As I mentioned earlier in the thread exception would be made for extremely valuable items (rare patterns, recipes, twink items etc.) but overall the general idea that everyone agreed on was to press greed unless your character needed to use the item that dropped. I really hope I end up on a server with the same mentality in classic.

Skuggfax wrote: ↑

6 years ago

Honestly sad that the reddit folks found their way to this forum as well, this new attitude is a real shame.

I would be quite interested in hearing a counter-argument to what I posted. I would never push for this system in a group that wanted to do things some other way, but I think that when things go live you will find this viewpoint to be quite a lot more common than the poll here would suggest.

Nayami wrote: ↑

6 years ago

Skuggfax wrote: ↑

6 years ago

Honestly sad that the reddit folks found their way to this forum as well, this new attitude is a real shame.

I would be quite interested in hearing a counter-argument to what I posted. I would never push for this system in a group that wanted to do things some other way, but I think that when things go live you will find this viewpoint to be quite a lot more common than the poll here would suggest.

If you see my post right before yours I mentioned how it was on my server originally which is why I'm very surprised by this viewpoint given that it was nonexistent for me back then. As I also mentioned I wonder if I was lucky with ending up on a server with such a friendly and trustworthy community or if there was such a big difference between EU and NA server ideas. I really don't know.

My viewpoint is that going in suspecting everyone of being a ninja looter just creates a negative atmosphere for everyone. Obviously there are bad apples but you whittle them out as you go and don't group with them anymore. I would go as far as to say 99% of people that I encountered were trustworthy and honest, maybe I just got lucky, we'll never know.

I think the idea is that getting an upgrade to your gear feels way better than some gold. And even if so due to the unstable nature of the AH, how do you know such an item will even be up there for you to purchase? Maybe there is none. Maybe there is and it's ridiculously overpriced. Maybe the person who won the item after everyone needed it won't sell it to you for a fair price. Maybe the guy would just rather use it for his enchanting instead of letting you get an upgrade.

I highly preferred this way of handling loot and at least for the server I was on it worked really well. This is just my opinion of course, will be interesting to see what it will be like in classic.

Skuggfax wrote: ↑

6 years ago

Default wrote: ↑

6 years ago

Skuggfax wrote: ↑

6 years ago

Honestly sad that the reddit folks found their way to this forum as well, this new attitude is a real shame.

Silly comment, as if BoE needing originated from reddit. It's a WoW issue not a website oriented issue.


The design of the system is working as intended. As others have said before, communication is key. This isn't a LFD issue, this is a community issue between your 4 other members of the party. So while everyone can kumbaya vote what they feel, it doesn't change how the system works.

Generally speaking, be sure to talk and commune with your fellow server and guild mates. This is how you find like-minded players, create a fun experience, and atmosphere avoiding toxicity.

I was just referring to the reddit post mentioned earlier in the thread where the overwhelming majority seemed to be of the opinion that you should just need on everything.

I suppose I never paid any attention to it back then given that I was just playing the game, not looking at forums. I guess I should just count myself lucky that I played on such a great server where the idea always was that you only need on things you actually need and intend to use. Maybe it's also a difference between EU and NA and not just server specific? I'm not sure.

That's just the experience I had in all pugs, it was simply an unspoken rule, ninja looting was still very rare, I can't even remember a single time where I encountered a bad ninja looter. As I mentioned earlier in the thread exception would be made for extremely valuable items (rare patterns, recipes, twink items etc.) but overall the general idea that everyone agreed on was to press greed unless your character needed to use the item that dropped. I really hope I end up on a server with the same mentality in classic.

It may be that a lot of original wow discussion was primarily on the general forums.

Looking at the wayback machine we're repeating history...

WoW Suggestions (2006/03/28) wrote:I. "Need" Roll Soulbinds - Make all "Need" rolls automatically bind to the winner. This helps discourage players falsely claiming need in order to Auction an item.

so yay classic experience? haha

Skuggfax wrote: ↑

6 years ago

Nayami wrote: ↑

6 years ago

Skuggfax wrote: ↑

6 years ago

Honestly sad that the reddit folks found their way to this forum as well, this new attitude is a real shame.

I would be quite interested in hearing a counter-argument to what I posted. I would never push for this system in a group that wanted to do things some other way, but I think that when things go live you will find this viewpoint to be quite a lot more common than the poll here would suggest.

If you see my post right before yours I mentioned how it was on my server originally which is why I'm very surprised by this viewpoint given that it was nonexistent for me back then. As I also mentioned I wonder if I was lucky with ending up on a server with such a friendly and trustworthy community or if there was such a big difference between EU and NA server ideas. I really don't know.

My viewpoint is that going in suspecting everyone of being a ninja looter just creates a negative atmosphere for everyone. Obviously there are bad apples but you whittle them out as you go and don't group with them anymore. I would go as far as to say 99% of people that I encountered were trustworthy and honest, maybe I just got lucky, we'll never know.

I think the idea is that getting an upgrade to your gear feels way better than some gold. And even if so due to the unstable nature of the AH, how do you know such an item will even be up there for you to purchase? Maybe there is none. Maybe there is and it's ridiculously overpriced. Maybe the person who won the item after everyone needed it won't sell it to you for a fair price. Maybe the guy would just rather use it for his enchanting instead of letting you get an upgrade.

I highly preferred this way of handling loot and at least for the server I was on it worked really well. This is just my opinion of course, will be interesting to see what it will be like in classic.

Fair enough. I had a different experience on an NA server. Ninja looting was a real problem. Looking at a retrospective thread about that server there are comments about one notorious looter. Yes Zode, we still remember you. Getting people to all roll need on all BoEs nullified that problem.

Nayami wrote: ↑

6 years ago

Skuggfax wrote: ↑

6 years ago

Nayami wrote: ↑

6 years ago

Skuggfax wrote: ↑

6 years ago

Honestly sad that the reddit folks found their way to this forum as well, this new attitude is a real shame.

I would be quite interested in hearing a counter-argument to what I posted. I would never push for this system in a group that wanted to do things some other way, but I think that when things go live you will find this viewpoint to be quite a lot more common than the poll here would suggest.

If you see my post right before yours I mentioned how it was on my server originally which is why I'm very surprised by this viewpoint given that it was nonexistent for me back then. As I also mentioned I wonder if I was lucky with ending up on a server with such a friendly and trustworthy community or if there was such a big difference between EU and NA server ideas. I really don't know.

My viewpoint is that going in suspecting everyone of being a ninja looter just creates a negative atmosphere for everyone. Obviously there are bad apples but you whittle them out as you go and don't group with them anymore. I would go as far as to say 99% of people that I encountered were trustworthy and honest, maybe I just got lucky, we'll never know.

I think the idea is that getting an upgrade to your gear feels way better than some gold. And even if so due to the unstable nature of the AH, how do you know such an item will even be up there for you to purchase? Maybe there is none. Maybe there is and it's ridiculously overpriced. Maybe the person who won the item after everyone needed it won't sell it to you for a fair price. Maybe the guy would just rather use it for his enchanting instead of letting you get an upgrade.

I highly preferred this way of handling loot and at least for the server I was on it worked really well. This is just my opinion of course, will be interesting to see what it will be like in classic.

Fair enough. I had a different experience on an NA server. Ninja looting was a real problem. Looking at a retrospective thread about that server there are comments about one notorious looter. Yes Zode, we still remember you. Getting people to all roll need on all BoEs nullified that problem.

This is actually very interesting, maybe there really was a big difference between regions. I'm EU and had a totally different experience to what you had. I'm very curious as to how it will play out in classic. Another factor we need to remember is that the people on reddit or barrens chat probably makes about about five percent of the player base that we will see on classic wow so any polls and opinions we see here are such a minority that we really don't have much of a clue as to what the actual game will be like. The mystery factor to everything, be it class distribution, factions or even the way loot is handled is exciting!

Skuggfax wrote: ↑

6 years ago

Another factor we need to remember is that the people on reddit or barrens chat probably makes about about five percent of the player base that we will see on classic wow so any polls and opinions we see here are such a minority that we really don't have much of a clue as to what the actual game will be like.

True say

Skuggfax wrote: ↑

6 years ago

I guess I should just count myself lucky that I played on such a great server where the idea always was that you only need on things you actually need and intend to use.

So you played on a greedy server then. Not sure why you consider that lucky. Hopefully it'll be too difficult for those types of people to get groups in WoW Classic so we can weed out the entitled kids who think that they're more important than anyone else in their group.

Skuggfax wrote: ↑

6 years ago

I think the idea is that getting an upgrade to your gear feels way better than some gold.

Again, I'm not sure why you expect 4 other random people to care about your feels. All BoE items are equal value. You are putting an emphasis on your own personal progression over the other people who assisted you in completing that dungeon. That is called greed.

Nayami wrote: ↑

6 years ago

You are in a five man group. A nice hunter BoE bow drops. It's an upgrade for the hunter. Its worth 50 gold on the AH. How much is it worth to the non-hunters? Obviously its worth 50g to them. If it is worth more than 50g to the hunter then maybe we have an argument that it should go to him. But is it really worth more than 50g to him? Then why hasn't he farmed the gold and bought it off the AH? In fact it probably isn't worth more than 50g to him and even if he won it, he would be better off selling it on the AH and buying necessary skills or what not.

This is exactly right. I mean the person who can use the item will always make a case that it should go to them, why wouldn't they? Just because someone can use something, and just because it may be itemized for them, does not mean that equipping it will result in the highest value earned. I feel like people who are pro Needing BoE's are oversimplifying the entire discussion. "It's an upgrade for him, he equips it, he does better..." Not exactly. What if that item is a rare BiS twink item? You would pass to some level 19 rogue so that he can use it for 4-5 levels before he replaces it instead of advocating that group needs it and someone potentially earns hundreds of gold? Equipping that level 19 item is bad for the group, its bad for the guy who equips it, its bad for the server... Its just a waste.

What about server changing items like flask recipes that were mentioned above? This item could change the entire game for your guild on the first few weeks, and you pass it to some random guy because he happens to roll alch? In this situation you lose a VERY important item that has significant value for you through your guild, and item you WOULD be using and have access to when someone in your guild learned it, you pass and risk someone ninjaing, only to give it to some random who may or may not have alch high enough to learn it and THEN you dont even know if this guy will play enough on the server to justify having that recipe or if he will stop playing a week later... *That recipe will produce more value for your server than the single player who wields it.*

The underlying issue here is value. What is valuable to you? It's not quite as simple as item vs gold. We all want Classic for the community right? Sometimes you get a drop so good, you have a responsibility to ensure that it isnt wasted and ends up being used in a productive way. Would your guild /roll for the first Thunderfury drop? No? Why not? "Thats different!". Is it? Certain items have a value so great, and are so impactful that you should make an effort to ensure they are obtained by someone who will use them responsibly. "But youre advocating for everyone rolling need..." Yes, in this scenario, at least you have a CHANCE to impact the outcome of that item instead of just passing on it for some arbitrary code that is regularly violated by the majority of the playerbase. A code that cant be enforced and a code that puts the players who are bound to it at a distinct disadvantage in a game that is won and lost by loot.

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

6 years ago

Sometimes you get a drop so good, you have a responsibility to ensure that it isnt wasted and ends up being used in a productive way

To clarify my point. It is hard to split hairs and build a case for what items are impactful enough to be greeded and which ones should be needed. The game is far too dynamic to have every eventuality outlined. For this reason, it becomes far easier to simply roll need for valuable BoE items. Just because you can equip it, and just because it is an upgrade, doesnt mean that equipping it will net the highest value outcome for that item. In most cases, equipping it wont.

Let me make myself clear. The greed button in game literally has gold on it. If you are needing for gold, i will black list you for it.

Greed is an option for "AH Spec" items. This is bad habbit to Need on items you need only to sell and not equip it.

Reiker wrote: ↑

6 years ago

Skuggfax wrote: ↑

6 years ago

I think the idea is that getting an upgrade to your gear feels way better than some gold.

Again, I'm not sure why you expect 4 other random people to care about your feels. All BoE items are equal value. You are putting an emphasis on your own personal progression over the other people who assisted you in completing that dungeon. That is called greed.

I will be needing on all BoP rares and epics too, I can disenchant and sell shards on AH, which progresses my character further than you guys' gear upgrade is able to.

Griznak wrote: ↑

6 years ago

I will be needing on all BoP rares and epics too, I can disenchant and sell shards on AH, which progresses my character further than you guys' gear upgrade is able to.

What a total bad faith argument.

This has been explained thousands of times for nearly two decades, including in this very thread, but if you're still having trouble understanding I'll try once again to break it down for you:

All BoEs have equal value to all members of the group because you can either buy or sell the item for the same amount of money.

BoPs, obviously, do not have equal value. If you want a real world example, imagine if Hands of the Exalted were a rare BoE. They might be worth about 100 gold to players based on similar pre-raid BIS blues. You cannot disenchant them for 100 gold worth of value.

Your argument holds no weight, but go ahead and try to claim that you're more important than anyone else in your group and see how far that mentality gets you once you've been blacklisted by the server.

Additionally, the argument about the names of the buttons (Need/Greed) or the images they depict is completely irrelevant. They mean different things in different situations (Pugs, guild groups, BoEs, BoPs, etc). Not only would it be impossible for Blizzard to design a different loot system for several situations, it would be pointless and needlessly complicated.

If a https://classic.wowhead.com/item=943/warden-staff drops and there is a feral druid in the group, it's going to them. I would hate to see them miss out on a need roll and never be able to afford it from the AH. This isn't a blanket answer, but my personal opinion on BoE distribution in groups.
People are greedy mofos, people are evil and a lot of people are going to have a bad time.