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4 months ago (1.13.3)
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WoW token added to Classic in China:
https://www.wowhead.com/news=311410/wow ... c-in-china

   Stfuppercut
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4 months ago (1.13.3)
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=)... Who could have possibly predicted such a thing... The token is a tool. It is the lesser of two evils and when cheating and gold selling reach a certain breakpoint, the token is introduced. That may or may not happen in North America and Europe, but it is a possibility.

A summary of my expectations and predictions from 8 months ago:
Launch the game without a token (they did this), monitor the behaviors of the players and when the negative impacts of gold-selling start to rise, try to control the situation with reactive GM bans (they are doing this). Once botting snowballs into a large enough problem and gold sellers are rampant, introduce the token as a catch-all in an effort to proactively police your game (the likely future and the ultimate outcome in China, a short ~6 months after launch.) This is an especially easy transition for the Chinese market who are very open to micro-transactions.

Gold selling is an issue in Classic. Bots are an issue. Power leveling services are an issue. They are a big enough issue to introduce the Token to the Chinese market... The token was in the game files before the game released and this was discussed months ago... The more experienced crowd was predicting this as a possibility, the more naive crowd was covering their eyes and whispering "no changes". My hope is that the NA game doesnt reach the threshold to validate adding the token, because if it does, the addition of the token is insignificant in contrast to shear quantity of players who must be botting and buying gold outside of the game. The addition of a token acknowledges much larger issues in play but also acts as an excellent tool to combat certain behaviors. I am not 100% pro token, but I can understand the necessity in using it and applaud Blizz for making the tough decisions that the emotional playerbase cant understand.

See viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1620 for a good token debate we had a few months ago.

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4 months ago (1.13.3)
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Yeah well, all I can predict is flasks for example being 500 gold a pop instead of 200 now when gold gets inflated so badly. After all Blizzard is a small indie company that could not possibly keep bots out even if private servers were quite successful at it.

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4 months ago (1.13.3)
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morbidmike wrote:
4 months ago
Yeah well, all I can predict is flasks for example being 500 gold a pop instead of 200 now when gold gets inflated so badly.
The token simply allows players to trade gold that was made legitimately to one another for a transaction outside of the game. This will have a lesser effect on inflation than botters and gold farmers and is Blizzards reaction to the black market. If anything, Chinese servers that were spiraling into such a high rate of black gold being injected into their market to validate the implementation of the token for China, will actually recover and stabilize with the token... Which is why this is a reactionary measure by Blizzard. Though, all of this information can be found in the post I linked above as it was explained months ago.

TLDR; The token =/= more gold being created. The token deters private sellers by creating a baseline market value for gold which can be purchased legally within game. Gold that was earned. Clean gold. Which destroys profit margins on black gold and forces illegitimate sources to drop their prices by such a significant margin to compete, that producing black gold and scrubbing it is no longer viable or sustainable.

The sentiment against the token is typically two-fold. Either "nochanges", which is silly. Or "I dont want more gold to be created and to inflate the market" which shows a complete and total lack of understanding of what the token is, how it functions and what implications it has on the market.
morbidmike wrote:
4 months ago
After all Blizzard is a small indie company that could not possibly keep bots out even if private servers were quite successful at it.
What private servers did you play on? They were infested with bots lol... All of the prominent private servers I played on had bots everywhere. Dont get me wrong, I loved private, but with free accounts and a low barrier to run bots, they were rampant. Blizz has never been able to squish botting. I was linking bots 8 months ago during my initial argument for the token and even by showing people that bots exist within retail, the majority of users scoffed at the idea that bots would/could exist within Classic. The reality here is that gold is valuable in Classic and the barrier to entry to create an account in Classic is lower than retail (Classic only requires a sub) and the demographic of users who play Classic are older and have less time and more disposable income - it is the perfect recipe for real money trading and so, we have the first implementation of the token to the Chinese market.

None of this means that tokens will reach the American/European markets but it does show that Blizz has a specific threshold before they WILL implement the token and if we reach that boundary, we will see the token. Classic is not simply, NO TOKEN/NO CHANGES. Blizzard is being tactful enough to use the tools it has with restraint to maintain the health of the game, and that is encouraging.

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4 months ago (1.13.3)
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If people in China sell gold now they can instead not sell the gold

Unless you buy gold, there's like no reason to get mad about that lol

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4 months ago (1.13.3)
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Papasmurf84 wrote:
4 months ago
If people in China sell gold now they can instead not sell the gold

Unless you buy gold, there's like no reason to get mad about that lol
Couldn't have said it better! The only thing I would add to that statement is:

And if they dont like it gold because also then if you can because haha

because China if you dont than whatever if they cant then they wont. Its simple

nobody buys gold if everyone else isnt buying gold so tokens wont anyways

g0bledyg00k wrote:
7 months ago
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4 months ago (1.13.3)
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based strokeposter

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4 months ago (1.13.3)
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You guys sound mad

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4 months ago (1.13.3)
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Stfuppercut wrote:
4 months ago
What private servers did you play on? They were infested with bots lol... All of the prominent private servers I played on had bots everywhere.
I used to bot on Lights Hope and Warmane. Warmane ofc is pretty garbage, because you could get banned for botting, donate a couple bucks and be able to play again.
Lights Hope dealt with bots and gold sellers very well. They caught me botting, banned my botting account, all other accounts that logged in from my IP address and banned my IP address as well, so that I could only log in from VPN afterwards. They also permabanned any people receiving gold from random people (know someone who got banned for receiving 100 gold from a random he loaned money for a mount and he had to appeal the ban). That's how you deal with bots and gold sellers/buyers. But of course this requires time from GMs actually being involved in the game. And those GMs cost money. Solving the botting/gold farming problem requires actual resources. Blizzard doesn't want to invest those resources, they just want to cash grab. So instead of actually solving the problem they just want to become the gold seller themselves. It doesn't solve anything. It just means that now buying gold no longer gets you banned, and instead of the money going to a gold farmer it goes to Blizzard.

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4 months ago (1.13.3)
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I don't think you guys understand this lol

You use IN GAME GOLD to buy a time card

What you do with that time card is up to you. Blizzard loses money by doing this because in the end at least one person is going to buy a time card, so that's at least $15 less that Blizzard is making

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4 months ago (1.13.3)
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Papasmurf84 wrote:
4 months ago
You use IN GAME GOLD to buy a time card
Yes. You buy a token from other players with ingame gold... Not from Blizzard. Blizzard sells the tokens to players.
Papasmurf84 wrote:
4 months ago
What you do with that time card is up to you.
You can use it or you can sell it/trade it for ingame gold.
Papasmurf84 wrote:
4 months ago
Blizzard loses money by doing this because in the end at least one person is going to buy a time card, so that's at least $15 less that Blizzard is making
Huh...?
Blizzard makes the same amount of money dumb dumb. Ralph pays a monthly sub to play the game. Ralph also buys a token from Blizzard for 15$ representing one month of played time so that he can sell it for gold ingame. Ralph places that token on the auction house. Dan buys the token for 1000g. Dan uses the token for one month of game time.

Ralph has paid his own monthly subscription of 15$. Ralph has also paid 15$ for a token and sold it for 1000g ingame.
Dan has spent 1000g(clean gold that was earned ingame) to buy game time.

Ralph has paid 30$ this month.
Dan has not paid.

Blizzard has still received 30$ total for the two players who are playing (they dont care who pays and are ultimately netting the same profits for hosting the same quantity of players). This can scale to any size. One player could buy 99 tokens and sell them to 99 players and with his own sub is paying for 100 accounts per month. The 99 players who buy these tokens for gold have spent nothing outside of the game. Blizzard still nets the same profit for 100 subs (there is a token purchase limit obviously, but this is an example).

And this is why having a token discussion with the majority of the community is challenging. Most people are really dumb. They want to have an economic discussion over the implications of the token, but they cant even understand the basic concept of how a token works. They are completely incapable of understanding a simple concept, yet are so arrogant that they say things like:
Papasmurf84 wrote:
4 months ago
I don't think you guys understand this lol
Yea. No one understands this but you... /s

g0bledyg00k wrote:
7 months ago
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4 months ago (1.13.3)
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morbidmike wrote:
4 months ago
I used to bot on Lights Hope and Warmane. Warmane ofc is pretty garbage, because you could get banned for botting, donate a couple bucks and be able to play again.
Oh yea, lights hope was infested. It may have been one of the worst server for bots actually. The demand for gold there was insane so bots just started to flood the game. You couldnt turn a corner without seeing bots.
morbidmike wrote:
4 months ago
Lights Hope dealt with bots and gold sellers very well. They caught me botting, banned my botting account, all other accounts that logged in from my IP address and banned my IP address as well, so that I could only log in from VPN afterwards. They also permabanned any people receiving gold from random people (know someone who got banned for receiving 100 gold from a random he loaned money for a mount and he had to appeal the ban).
Yep, this is standard Elysium policy that carried over. Kronos was the same. There were still a crazy amount of bots, which is why they had to take such a stern approach to maintain any semblance of order.
morbidmike wrote:
4 months ago
That's how you deal with bots and gold sellers/buyers. But of course this requires time from GMs actually being involved in the game. And those GMs cost money. Solving the botting/gold farming problem requires actual resources. Blizzard doesn't want to invest those resources, they just want to cash grab. So instead of actually solving the problem they just want to become the gold seller themselves. It doesn't solve anything. It just means that now buying gold no longer gets you banned, and instead of the money going to a gold farmer it goes to Blizzard.
Well, Blizzard makes the same amount of money. So... No. They do save themselves a lot of money on fighting against the cheaters though and they also keep the game a lot cleaner which helps with player retention, so in the end, they would save money. But on the surface, if player 1 sells a token to player 2, Blizz is making the same amount of money for two subs, even if they are both being paid by one player - nothing has changed.

g0bledyg00k wrote:
7 months ago
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4 months ago (1.13.3)
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Stfuppercut wrote:
4 months ago
Well, Blizzard makes the same amount of money. So... No. They do save themselves a lot of money on fighting against the cheaters though and they also keep the game a lot cleaner which helps with player retention, so in the end, they would save money. But on the surface, if player 1 sells a token to player 2, Blizz is making the same amount of money for two subs, even if they are both being paid by one player - nothing has changed.
Blizzard makes a LOT more money selling WoW tokens.
1 month of gametime costs (if you only buy one month, no 3-6 month discount) €12.99. 1 WoW token (30 days of gametime, so let's say 1 month) costs €20. That's 54% (!!!!!) more. So yes, Blizzard is making a LOT more money off WoW tokens than regular gametime.
So... yes. They are becoming the gold sellers and are making a hefty profit from ruining the game's market.

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4 months ago (1.13.3)
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morbidmike wrote:
4 months ago
Blizzard makes a LOT more money selling WoW tokens.
This is an assumption with no real figures to back it. I'd argue that far fewer people have a running subscription these days than in the past. With the current state of the game, people tend to unsub during droughts and resub for new content which is why longterm subs are so heavily incentivized by discount; its hard to make a longterm sub attractive.

Without numbers though, and for the sake of the conversation, Blizzard doesn't necessarily stand to make more money by selling tokens. In fact, I'm sure that hosting those sales and maintaining the infrastructure for the token has its own costs. I'm sure they have a wide array of cost-analysis studies that justify the token, which is why it exists, but the token is far less about profit and far more about combating negative behaviors that cant be dealt with by anti-cheat software. The cost benefit is secondary. The largest net profit from the token would be the player retention rates above a flat rate of return. And that retention is two-fold. The players who will stay due to the health of the game, by combating bots and sellers and the players who remain from increased accessibility to the game by having a secondary payment option (ingame gold).

The TLDR to all of this is, Blizzard isn't using the token for a direct financial gain. The financial gain is an indirect benefit.
morbidmike wrote:
4 months ago
So... yes. They are becoming the gold sellers and are making a hefty profit from ruining the game's market.
This is an oversimplification to sensationalize the hosting of a gold sale. No. They are not selling gold. They are allowing players to trade clean gold to one another ingame and then host an out of game money trade to complete the sale. They are not selling gold directly to the playerbase. Statements like this are intentionally contentious and provocative. Yes, this distinction is important. Yes, this is different than selling gold.

"Selling gold to the players" implies a direct and significant impact to the ingame economy. A negative impact. They are instead derailing black gold sales by hosting clean gold sales ingame and actually stabilizing the economy and removing a lot of counterfeit currency that is circulating (bot created gold). They do this by directly allowing the players to dictate a market rate for gold and to incentivize the sale of clean gold to place pressure on the black market. The black market is forced to compete with the legal gold sales and the overhead of running bots slowly becomes nonviable as the clean market adjusts to stay competitive and slowly suffocates the gold sellers.

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7 months ago
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4 months ago (1.13.3)
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It's important to mention, that Tencent, and neither Activision nor Blizzard, is running WoW in China.

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4 months ago (1.13.3)
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Stfuppercut wrote:
4 months ago
This is an assumption with no real figures to back it.
I've given you the exact real figures to back it. For every two months of gametime bought and used through WoW tokens they've sold two months of gametime for the price of three months of gametime. You're not calling that a LOT more money?
With the money grabbing scandals of Blizzard of the past years it is very naive to think adding WoW tokens is done for anything but the money.
Stfuppercut wrote:
4 months ago
...
So when I'm buying Bitcoins for Dollars, Dollars which I've bought with Euros, I'm not buying Bitcoins for my Euros? And they actually can create gold with the WoW token, because you always get the amount of gold you put it up for. Even if the price drops. We just have to hope it balances out with the amount of times it sells lower than the current going rate. And that Blizz isn't fucking with the prices, because we can't actually see the current price, only the price WoW is suggesting for us.

Here's your reasoning:
1) People will bot for gold
2) People will sell that gold for real life money
3) Blizzard can/will not stop these people botting for that gold
4) Blizzard selling WoW tokens will stop or ameliorate the botting because A) players can now buy WoW tokens for real life money and B) players can then buy WoW gold using those WoW tokens.
TLDR: There is no longer a need to buy gold from gold farmers so they will stop botting for gold.

Here's the flaw in your reasoning:
1) This only puts an upper limit at the pricetag for gold, so it could be less profitable to sell gold (depending on the price of token/gold), but still profitable
2) Gold farmers can bot for gold, buy WoW tokens and sell the gametime for real money (you can gift Blizzard account balance). And yes, this is being done.

WoW tokens will make it harder for gold farmers. But no, WoW tokens will not stop the botters. In fact if Blizzard were to actually put in the resources to spot and ban botters there would be a lot less gold going into the system. The gold botters create will now be going into the system, and used to trade WoW tokens, instead of being removed from the system by accounts being banned. Those are the facts. WoW tokens are a very lousy "solution" to gold farming and are detrimental to the market. And because it's making Blizz money, there's no reason for them to look for a real solution that would cost time and money, like investing in an actually decent anti botting measure. It's not hard for humans to spot botters but Blizzard won't hire game masters to continuously check the most common botting places. Because that would cost them money. WoW tokens earn them money.

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4 months ago (1.13.3)
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morbidmike wrote:
4 months ago
Here's your reasoning:
1) People will bot for gold
2) People will sell that gold for real life money
3) Blizzard can/will not stop these people botting for that gold
4) Blizzard selling WoW tokens will stop or ameliorate the botting because A) players can now buy WoW tokens for real life money and B) players can then buy WoW gold using those WoW tokens.
TLDR: There is no longer a need to buy gold from gold farmers so they will stop botting for gold.
Close, but I disagree with 4. Selling wow tokens will not stop botting or gold sellers. It will disrupt the market and create a very competitive space that very few people will find value in running bots or selling black gold. The overhead is high in contrast to the low profit margins and the high risk values, so many people wont bother. This wont eliminate botting, as we can see in retail, it will dramatically reduce botting.
morbidmike wrote:
4 months ago
Here's the flaw in your reasoning:
1) This only puts an upper limit at the pricetag for gold, so it could be less profitable to sell gold (depending on the price of token/gold), but still profitable
2) Gold farmers can bot for gold, buy WoW tokens and sell the gametime for real money (you can gift Blizzard account balance). And yes, this is being done.
1) the marketplace is dynamic and gold will fluctuate within the market. the token establishes the fair market value and the black market is forced to compete with that number. If the black market wants to compete, they need to drastically reduce their price to account for risk (and they will). Players will buy into that black gold because it is still such an incredible value... which will in turn force the fair market value of gold down due to decreased demand. this cycle continues until black gold has virtually no profit margins remaining.

2) not only can they, but they have been doing this for years. but back to point 3, tokens dont eliminate botting, they just dramatically reduce it. With the anti cheat we have in place now working in conjunction with the token, botting and gold selling is demonstratively reduced to such a point that it has a low impact on the game.
morbidmike wrote:
4 months ago
WoW tokens will make it harder for gold farmers. But no, WoW tokens will not stop the botters. In fact if Blizzard were to actually put in the resources to spot and ban botters there would be a lot less gold going into the system.
Agreed. Botting wont stop, but it will be reduced dramatically. Gold selling wont stop but it will be reduced. This still doesnt even address other black sales like boosts, account sharing/selling/trading and other real money trades. This only addresses one small problem... But... It works. As we can see in retail.

See my comments above:
Stfuppercut wrote:
4 months ago
Blizz has never been able to squish botting. I was linking bots 8 months ago during my initial argument for the token and even by showing people that bots exist within retail, the majority of users scoffed at the idea that bots would/could exist within Classic.
Even with the token, bots will persist. This is not about eliminating bots, its about drastically reducing the quantity of bots and putting pressure on the black market for gold, which Blizzard has achieved with the token.

The token is a smart move once the game demands its implementation. The Chinese game has demanded its implementation. The US/Euro markets may follow this trend eventually. The token is an incredibly impactful tool that should be used with discretion. The token comes with a whole host of its own issues and acknowledges the game must be in a fractured state to merit its implementation.

g0bledyg00k wrote:
7 months ago
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3 months ago (1.13.3)
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Hey, the token debate!

I am in my little raid-logging bubble at the moment. So I just login, farm some manual crowd pummelers and do my profession cooldowns then log off until raid night(s). I am 8/8 BWL as of last week and getting pretty rapidly geared up as a Feral tank. BWL is easy, but still enjoyable to progress with friends.

I see stuff about gold selling, and have heard about token in China - but it has such minimal impact on my limited play schedule that I'm really not phased one way or another. I am really looking forward to ZG/Dragons/AQ/Naxx to come with a decent guild of RL mates and randoms.

Hope everyone is doing well and still enjoying Classic. I wish I had a bit more time to level alts or grind gold for more consumes, but such is life :smile:

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3 months ago (1.13.3)
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Selexin wrote:
3 months ago
Hey, the token debate!
Welcome back :lol:

   Noodles Selexin
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7 months ago
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3 months ago (1.13.3)
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Selexin wrote:
3 months ago
I see stuff about gold selling, and have heard about token in China - but it has such minimal impact on my limited play schedule that I'm really not phased one way or another. I am really looking forward to ZG/Dragons/AQ/Naxx to come with a decent guild of RL mates and randoms.
Yeah doesn't affect me at all, just hope it mainly stays in china and not in the NA servers.
Looking forward to actually fully attempting Naxx this time around too!!

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3 months ago (1.13.4)
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Stfuppercut wrote:
4 months ago
The token was in the game files before the game released and this was discussed months ago... The more experienced crowd was predicting this as a possibility, the more naive crowd was covering their eyes and whispering "no changes". My hope is that the NA game doesnt reach the threshold to validate adding the token, because if it does, the addition of the token is insignificant in contrast to shear quantity of players who must be botting and buying gold outside of the auto clicker game. The addition of a token acknowledges much larger issues in play but also acts as an excellent tool to combat certain behaviors. I am not 100% pro token, but I can understand the necessity in using it and applaud Blizz for making the tough decisions that the emotional playerbase cant understand.
Blizz has never been able to squish botting. I was linking bots 8 months ago during my initial argument for the token and even by showing people that bots exist within retail, the majority of users scoffed at the idea that bots would/could exist within Classic. The reality here is that gold is valuable in Classic and the barrier to entry to create an account in Classic is lower than retail (Classic only requires a sub) and the demographic of users who play Classic are older and have less time and more disposable income

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3 months ago (1.13.4)
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shwan124 wrote:
3 months ago
Blizz has never been able to squish botting. I was linking bots 8 months ago during my initial argument for the token and even by showing people that bots exist within retail, the majority of users scoffed at the idea that bots would/could exist within Classic. The reality here is that gold is valuable in Classic and the barrier to entry to create an account in Classic is lower than retail (Classic only requires a sub) and the demographic of users who play Classic are older and have less time and more disposable income
This sounds familiar...

g0bledyg00k wrote:
7 months ago
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1 week ago (1.13.4)
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Yeah I dug up this thread because yeah, the wow token makes botting worse, not better ;)

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1 week ago (1.13.4)
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I wonder if he ever gets tired of pulling that face on every single youtube thumbnail :lol:

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