The discussion about skill in this topic got me thinking about the question of skill in WoW again, especially in terms of the potential of the classes in the hand of a exceptional player.

As you might know, people like to use the terms skill floor and skill ceiling, there floor is the difficulty to get the class ( or hero an mobas ) played right, while ceiling says what could be possible, once you master it.

So, which class do you think had the highest potential in the hand of a dedicated player?
Gear aside, I think a dedicated player gets the gear he wants eventually.

*Caperfin sweats/drools.

It really depends on whether you mean PvE or PvP. Most people do not have experience playing more than 2-3 classes at level 60 even so it's a very biased thing.

Also what defines a good Warlock might not be the same as what defines a good Mage. If your SB crits the hardest but you don't get your Banishes up 100% of the time you are legitimately worse than someone who keeps the CC up all the time from a raid's perspective.

Similary, an SL lock has an easier skill floor in group PvP because most of the things he'll be using will be instant cast and priorities are pretty straight forward, whereas an NF/Conflag needs to be more mindful of interrupts and get some specific +Fire SP gear to make himself viable. At the same time, the skill ceiling is more reliant on Trinkets and Consumable use and not so much on the spells he casts, which is something generally applicable to any class.

FTHforever wrote: ↑

5 years ago

So, which class do you think had the highest potential in the hand of a dedicated player?

I'd have to say in terms of PVE, it would be a Priest Tank.
Combining both damage spells and healing spells in a beautiful synergistic dance of mana/health coupled with coordination and communication is truly the most challenging but gratifying as you where not designed for that purpose but can when in the hands of a dedicated player.

Going in a less streamlined direction than @Caperfin & excluding the question of role, since it was only asked for class, I would go with Druids.

Not because I play one & not because I think I a have mastered it (which I don't), but - for example 1 - because in Solo / PvP Situations you are at your most effective when utilizing all three of your specializations.
A cat is not a rogue, a bear not a warrior, a boomkin not a mage & Resto not a Priest. But juggling Forms according to your needs, controlling your mana well, crowd controlling, healing yourself, throwing a harmful spell or two makes for an efficient & unique but difficult to master Playstyle in those situations.

This perspective, of course, disregards group activities like dungeons and raids, that depend on you filling your role, but I would argue that even here, the difference between a masterful druid and a "meets expecations" druid can make all the difference in tricky situations.

I'll paint a picture for example 2:
You are at Major Domo, you are MT'ing as a bear. Mr. Domo decides to port you. While jumping off the lava pit, you take the seconds you gain without being physically hit to shift out of Bear form, use Nature's Swiftness, Combat Res a healer, Innervate the healer you ressed, go back into bear form, taunt and continue tanking.

I interpret a high skill cap as "getting the most out of your class". To pull this move off, the Druid needs great awareness, quick reflexes, precision targeting, good positioning of the boss, precise character movement and s specific spec.

Nobody would be angry if he just picked up Mr. Domo again and continued tanking, that would have just met the expectation of the role, not the capabilities of the class.

Nymis wrote: ↑

5 years ago

It really depends on whether you mean PvE or PvP. Most people do not have experience playing more than 2-3 classes at level 60 even so it's a very biased thing.

Also what defines a good Warlock might not be the same as what defines a good Mage. If your SB crits the hardest but you don't get your Banishes up 100% of the time you are legitimately worse than someone who keeps the CC up all the time from a raid's perspective.

Similary, an SL lock has an easier skill floor in group PvP because most of the things he'll be using will be instant cast and priorities are pretty straight forward, whereas an NF/Conflag needs to be more mindful of interrupts and get some specific +Fire SP gear to make himself viable. At the same time, the skill ceiling is more reliant on Trinkets and Consumable use and not so much on the spells he casts, which is something generally applicable to any class.

While you could specify the question for: which class needs the most skill in PVP etc, that is kind of easy to answer I guess, even though people might a have a different opinion.

No the question is more about potential: which class could shine the most if played by a excecptional player? Also no easy answer here I guess, but you could definitely count a couple of classes out, like Warriors, which on their own don't have much potential. On the other hand I would rate the two pet classes with a higher skill ceiling obviously, because in addition to your toon, you need to manage your pet.

I would argue that the Hunter has the highest skill ceiling for both PvE and PvP while also having one of the most forgiving skill floors.

A hunter, like a rogue or mage, has a high potential for 1vX situations in PvP, but the setup a hunter requires is far less forgiving. All of the hunters CC options have limitations and conditions. He cant just click and poly someone to setup or land an easy sap. No. He needs to relinquish zoning and sacrifice distance to land a trap. The ability to drop combat like a rogue and swap trinkets and gear makes a hunter incredibly dynamic.

In PvE a hunter has a swing timer, spell weaving, mana to be concerned with, in specific situation will use his DoT and must manage his own positioning and his pets. Can you just auto shot a hunter with no pet out and perform at about 50% of your potential? Yup. Which is why I would say they have a very forgiving skill floor (possibly the most forgiving next to a PvE mage/warlock). But mastering a hunter and squeezing out that final 10-20% of potential is incredibly challenging. Swapping gear during each fight, feign swapping trinkets during bosses, etc etc etc can really separate an average hunter from an elite hunter. Hunter is also one of the very few DPS classes where a skilled player can set themselves apart from a regular hunter and will be appreciated by a group, even if the group are new. It doesnt take a skilled player to recognize a skilled hunter.

Granted the game does not demand skill, as I had mentioned in the previous thread. The game rewards time.

Caperfin wrote: ↑

5 years ago

I'd have to say in terms of PVE, it would be a Priest Tank.

Good lord... lol. What a disaster. You know how you can identify a bad priest? The priest who says he wants to tank.

@Stfuppercut Interesting piece on the Hunter. I did not know feign+trinket switch was a thing :)

I guess in order to really judge you'd have to discuss between the very few people that have actually experienced all classes at lvl 60 extensively.
I myself can only speak to Rogues & Druids and the difference between the two - in my opinion - is insane.

Rinkusan wrote: ↑

5 years ago

I guess in order to really judge you'd have to discuss between the very few people that have actually experienced all classes at lvl 60 extensively.
I myself can only speak to Rogues & Druids and the difference between the two - in my opinion - is insane.

Edit: in relation to my comment on Capers priest tank

I've played with a priest tank on private. It was just bad. It put a lot of pressure on the group and was unnecessary and sloppy. These fringe specs or roles usually appeal to people who want to be unique or value their own fun over the groups fun, so that's also usually bad. Strong competent players usually don't play awful specs, so you're dealing with the combination of a bad spec that is usually being played by a bad player. The strongest players tend to take the strongest spec and directly compete for parses with other strong players. They arent afraid of being judged or compared. I find weaker players often magnetize towards awful specs, and I think for many players that motivation is associated to their ability to relinquish responsibility for their performance and to perform a role where they cant really be compared to others, because no one else is playing that spec/role.

Ex. A strong player who wants solid parses as melee will typically play a fury warrior/rogue, they will consume and they will compete for high parses. A weak player will be inclined to go ret, swing a nightfall to justify his sub optimal build and then relinquish accountability for their performance and justify it with the nightfall. Its just a pattern I've noticed. I've played in many guilds with many players over the years and I havent found many strong and capable players who migrate to weak specs, not even if they get bored. These specs or roles should be reserved for the best players because they take a lot of knowhow, yet they are typically played by average or just bad players.

Edit: Though I think measuring the complexity or depth of each class is pretty simple. A lot of classes can raid by pushing a button. Mages, warlocks, hunters for example can get through raiding with one button. PvP is a bit more dynamic.

I am very surprised 8 out of 32 people voted for warrior. Care to elaborate why you think so?

In my opinion all stance dance difficulty can be managed with proper macro use, and that doesn't need much skill.

Caperfin wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Priest Tank.

U wot m8

Lol where do the Warrior votes come from, Warrior is one of the lowest skillcap classes in the game.
Personally voted Rogue but this is just impossible to judge. Talking 1v1, 1vx or xvx PvP or PvE? Could make a great argument for Warlock, Hunter, Mage and Druid as well (interesting how Mage got 0 votes, guess that's because Mages have a very high skill floor :D).

Obviously it is all subjective and dependent on the specific environment, but if we are talking PvP I would think Druid/Hunter. There is an argument for Warlock, skill floor is pretty low but you can really become insanely powerful against multiple targets with high skill.

FTHforever wrote: ↑

5 years ago

I am very surprised 8 out of 32 people voted for warrior. Care to elaborate why you think so?

People think the class is very difficult because they havent played it and have heard horror stories. This is the same with hunter, which is also rated as easy because people have heard it was easy but have no concept of how a hunter is played at a high level.

Unlike retail, vanilla takes a long time to level. Most people wont have the opportunity to play most classes so their understanding of classes is reliant on word of mouth.

Welcome to Barrens chat, where warrior is declared the highest skil cap class.

Hunters a hard to master but once you witness a player who has mastered hunter it's like visual art both PvE and PvP.
Same with warriors. Warriors have a less forgiving skill floor compared to hunters but Warrior 1v1s against some classes requires a bit of 4D chess. To win as a warrior you basically have to know every other classes rotations/openers/fakes and reactions to what you would do. I've almost gotten to that point but still not as good as many known names. Mages and good hunters still tend to kick my ass if I sneeze.
Warrior supported PvP is hilarious. Pocket healer (if a pally it's more broken). Recklessness, sweeping strikes and cleave into that ball of fun spinning the flag in AB and one shot everything.

As far as warrior PvE goes, it's super easy. Get drunk and hit bloodthirst and any casual guild will think you're a god amongst men. (Even warrior leveling is easy, just dont be dumb.)

morbidmike wrote: ↑

5 years ago

(interesting how Mage got 0 votes, guess that's because Mages have a very high skill floor :D).

I don't think that mages got a very high skill floor - they are not called '2019 hunter' without reason: everyone and his dog can play a viable mage nowadays.

Nethertheless, I think they are in the higher area for skill ceiling, because of the things you can possible do once you are experienced, just look at all the PVE solo farms or the pvp videos of good elemental mages, mad shit that does take some time to learn.
So yes, low votes for mages are definitely strange.

Warriors at 16 oh lord.. guys please visit fight club (warrior) discord, you seem to need the help

The correct answer is Mage.

People dissing warriors skill cap should recall all the dungeons they did with bad tanks.

Vlostek wrote: ↑

5 years ago

People dissing warriors skill cap should recall all the dungeons they did with bad tanks.

Just because some morons play the class badly does not mean the class is actually hard or complex.

Let me elaborate a bit on warriors and skill ceiling / floor.

In my opinion, Warriors are pretty interesting, because they are not easy to learn, but also not hard to master. By using the above terms, you could say they got a medium skill floor and a medium skill ceiling.

Stance dancing for example looks intimidating, but with good macros it's null sweat, because stances are instant AND off general cooldown.

Leveling also is a way lesser issue than before, thanks to melee cleave and strong 2h builds utilizing continuous weapon upgrades.

Tanking looks difficult, because you have to know how threat works and how to use your tools. Also because people play very fast and never give you much time to build threat. Also until you got your hands on Thunderfury, your raid will mostly be 'threat capped' - they could dps harder if the tank would do more tps.

Now the exceptional warrior players go beyond that, and use a wide array of different items and weapons (and talent speccs) for different situations, tailored to their specific needs. It might suprise some, how many different items you could use, while still being a bruiser. I really like how they fulfilled the class fantasy here, that warriors strive to master different weapons and tactics.

Unpopular opinion: I don't measure skill in PvE unless it's world first on new released bosses. PvP mostly never on the same location, different geared players, different skilled players. You have to adapt to enemy having consumables etc.

PvP is where the skilled players hang!

You can show some skill in PVE too, but it's harder to track there.
If you do everything else right, have the right consumes but be undergeared you can do some raids just fine for example. That doesn't work in Naxx anymore because every encounter is also a gear check there. But even in AQ40 you could do wonders with playing your class to 100%.

Also, if anything goes south in dungeons or raids it's mostly the skilled players that stay alive or saving the raid a wipe.

Nethertheless, I agree that it's easier to measure skill in PvP, especially if you are duelling under rules or challenge yourself to win a unfavorable encounter in battlegrounds.

Lol at the people voting mage. Gtfo go spam your 1 key in Mc some more.

Druids, rogues and warriors are all very complex. I'd say druid takes the cake. It can be everything in the game but never the best at what it does. Warriors stance dance a lot and controlling your rage doing so, sucks. And rogues stealth mechanics are insane. You can you can do alot with it and a rogues cds. Ambush>blind>leave combat>stealth>ambush>(if there not dead use vanish then ambush )

FTHforever wrote: ↑

5 years ago

morbidmike wrote: ↑

5 years ago

(interesting how Mage got 0 votes, guess that's because Mages have a very high skill floor :D).

I don't think that mages got a very high skill floor - they are not called '2019 hunter' without reason: everyone and his dog can play a viable mage nowadays.

Got my logic mixed around there, meant that mages have a very low skill floor (was thinking of mages compared to warlocks, who actually do have a very high skill floor xd)