Warrior Fury
User avatar
EU Gandling
Posts: 30
Likes: 18
Human
Warrior
1 week ago (1.13.2)
 •  Unread

Classic+ is an amazing idea but I know for a fact the new content will fall prey to the contrived, complicated Game of Thrones style storytelling Blizzard is trying hard to push.

Blizzard's Storytelling Fetish in 2019: The Savior Complex
Vanilla came at a time of cartoonishly simple and straightforward 90s game storytelling that jaded old white people in business suits judging the game's next design directions assume contemporary audiences don't like anymore. I fear any new content will have the faint aftertaste of post-Cataclysm Netflix series style storytelling with savior complex bullshit.

In 2004, MMOs considered you to be a faceless pawn in the gargantuan population of your race and any sense of importance was earned through mechanical excellence (PvP ranking, consistently impressive raid leadership, being the only guy in your guild with rare profession recipes, things that made you well known in the community) rather than just doing the quests as you're ordered. I'm fearful that if any new content is added, the dialogue will constantly jerk you off as the savior of Azeroth for just following the storyline.

Organic Faction Hatred vs. Scripted Faction Hatred
Another pet peeve I have with how Blizzard will handle Classic+ is this.

At the time of Vanilla, while races were mechanically separated, there was still a "we don't like them but we can work together" feel to all the raids. That was mostly because Night Elves and Forsaken were both neutral, xenophobic races in Warcraft 3. Because WoW was designed to be a fully faction-oriented game, the concept of race neutrality in the lore was utterly forgotten about, and over time WoW became a story about blue and red hating each other everywhere they go, and all of the nuanced political opinions and race relationships were gone.

There was mostly nothing in Vanilla that asserted the concept that you were supposed to actually hate the opposite faction. That happens to you as the human being, the player behind the screen, over time as you get ganked and teabagged in PvP. That's how you develop "organic faction conflict". Horde players hated Alliance players and vice versa in real life because of mechanical reasons and tribalism, not because the story told you you really had to.

Taliesin's video about Classic+ suggests things like a Troll island questing zone where the Horde helps the natives murder humans while the Alliance helps the human settlers defend themselves. If anything that would be a good idea in a PvP battleground, but Vanilla questing zones always shied away from being long, overarching complex stories like in BfA where the player is forced to have a political opinion. This point is pretty autistic of me but I just wanted a concrete example that Classic+'s content might be a bit too zoomer-ish for the era it's supposed to represent.

For example BfA, on the other hand, was marketed as the expansion where faction conflict comes back, and where almost every facet of the expansion was about despising the other faction. That's kind of like doing the dishes on your own compared to being told to do the dishes; when the game's cutscenes and quest dialogue starts barking on and on and on and on about the faction conflict in PvE content, it starts getting a bit too phony. You might enjoy it and it's fine, but for me it feels like I'm being held by the wrist and dragged through an interactive movie.

To make a long story short
This paragraph is a bit of a mess and I ramble on a lot, because the "zeitgeist" of early 2000s MMO that Classic embodied is REALLY hard to pinpoint. It's like an old busted car: it's not really "the best" by any metric, it's not complicated and it doesn't appeal to the current generation, but that old straightforward nostalgic design style is what is enjoyable about it, and people love it for what it is rather than what "compelling story-oriented design" is supposed to be.

I fear that Blizzard might forget the secret ingredient that at that same time was a big flaw, but also made it an amazing, endearing experience; which is to keep it simple.

   Telvaine Pippina Casp LucidNightmare kekgenius Yinn
"Einstein would turn over in his grave;
Not only does God play dice,
But the dice are loaded."

- Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang, "Looking God In The Eye"
Warlock Affliction
User avatar
US Grobbulus
Posts: 141
Likes: 91
Night Elf
Hunter
1 week ago (1.13.2)
 •  Unread

You have captured pretty much everything that I hate about the majority of the expansions lore-wise. I can't stand the "chosen one" "champion of Azeroth" bullshit that is ubiquitous in retail. I also completely agree with you that the scripted "we hate the red guys" stuff in retail is pretty insufferable, nothing beats actual hatred for the players behind the characters that you develop through your interactions with actual players in the game.

The only aspect that you didn't mention that makes most of the expansions boring is the lack of a real, ominous, antagonist, as I've mentioned in other posts about the expansions. That said, Vanilla has no real coherant overarching antagonist, which is part of what I enjoy about it. You are just another <class> living in the world of warcraft.

   Pippina Casp peon Felneth
Telvaine - Night Elf Hunter
Raikkan- Human Warlock
Keatts- Human Rogue

-Savages of Grobbulus, prepare yourselves for slaughter.
Hillsbrad Foothills
User avatar
Posts: 11
Likes: 1
Undead
Warlock
1 week ago (1.13.2)
 •  Unread

Telvaine wrote:
1 week ago
You have captured pretty much everything that I hate about the majority of the expansions lore-wise. I can't stand the "chosen one" "champion of Azeroth" bullshit that is ubiquitous in retail. I also completely agree with you that the scripted "we hate the red guys" stuff in retail is pretty insufferable, nothing beats actual hatred for the players behind the characters that you develop through your interactions with actual players in the game.

The only aspect that you didn't mention that makes most of the expansions boring is the lack of a real, ominous, antagonist, as I've mentioned in other posts about the expansions. That said, Vanilla has no real coherant overarching antagonist, which is part of what I enjoy about it. You are just another <class> living in the world of warcraft.
You could argue that the "antagonist" is the world itself. Centaurs , Harpies or Murlocs aren't scary or tough cos the game told you they are because it shoved you, that is, you the player learned it.This hasn't been the case in the open world for far too long in retail. The main antagonist suffered this since Pandaria , I guess. No hype build up defeating their armies or commanders no real presence like you said. Lich King showed up often, yeah, scripted, but he was there, taunting you and mocking you until the end. Retail no longer has this, everything is shown in cut-scenes or cinematics.No real player experience.Its like Skyrim or Inqusition, you are told that the big bad is uber powerful and all, but once you fight them, they're not. The chosen one sucks too, that is, the way it is handled does. In DA:Origins or in Morrowind you are the chosen one/hero/savior.The difference is you really earn you way to top so it feels rewarding and justifiable. Blizzard just went the lazy route like Bethesda did in Skyrim.

   Midoo
Ashenvale
User avatar
US Fairbanks
Posts: 621
Likes: 456
Gnome
Warrior
1 week ago (1.13.2)
 •  Unread

Midoo wrote:
1 week ago
It feels like I'm being held by the wrist and dragged through an interactive movie.
This is a good point. The stories in Classic are small and largely confined to each zone. Some of them branch out and send you all over the place, but they're all small and add flavor to the zones. I like this better.

You got good points about the organic nature of faction conflict too. I don't hate the horde because the game told me to, I hate them because I get ganked and teabagged every time I set food in contested territory on a busy PVP server and stop paying attention for 5 minutes. It works. I really wouldn't care about the horde if they didn't gank me but blizzard instead threw cutscenes at me telling me that I'm supposed to.

   Midoo
Pippina - Level 5 Gnome Warrior (alt) | Beardozer - Level 35 Night Elf Druid (Main)
Warrior Fury
User avatar
EU Gandling
Posts: 30
Likes: 18
Human
Warrior
1 week ago (1.13.2)
 •  Unread

Discharger wrote:
1 week ago
Blizzard just went the lazy route like Bethesda did in Skyrim.
Exactly. Skyrim is just a watered down waypoint slog with the only thing I can tell my friends about is how I fast traveled to the exact same city every player did, with the exact same horse everyone had, spam clicking the exact same enemies to death and walking through the exact same draugr crypt, watching the same cutscenes and knowing everything played out the exact same as in everyone's playthrough while the game insists time and time again that I should be excited to mouse click the same final boss that everyone mouse clicked to death.

That's the difference between sandbox RPG design and rollercoaster RPG design, and it's even worse when the designers remove almost every unique non-combat spell, ability and skill and forcefully shift the focus on nothing but the arcade game type combat at the expense of world immersiveness or utility because they think the latter is niche and unwanted in modern gaming.

   Pippina Aegust
"Einstein would turn over in his grave;
Not only does God play dice,
But the dice are loaded."

- Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang, "Looking God In The Eye"
Badlands
User avatar
EU Flamelash
Posts: 241
Likes: 108
Horde
Shaman
1 week ago (1.13.2)
 •  Unread

Midoo wrote:
1 week ago
Blizzard's Storytelling Fetish in 2019: The Savior Complex
Vanilla came at a time of cartoonishly simple and straightforward 90s game storytelling that jaded old white people in business suits judging the game's next design directions assume contemporary audiences don't like anymore. I fear any new content will have the faint aftertaste of post-Cataclysm Netflix series style storytelling with savior complex bullshit.
My dude did you find this or write it by yourself, it's terrifically well said and an accurate representation. Nice :)

   Midoo
Image  Image  Image  Image
Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/caperfin
Warrior Fury
User avatar
EU Gandling
Posts: 30
Likes: 18
Human
Warrior
1 week ago (1.13.2)
 •  Unread

Caperfin wrote:
1 week ago
My dude did you find this or write it by yourself
All my own words

Frustration is one hell of a motivator (lol)

"Einstein would turn over in his grave;
Not only does God play dice,
But the dice are loaded."

- Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang, "Looking God In The Eye"
Arathi Basin
User avatar
US Sulfuras
Posts: 16
Likes: 8
Alliance
1 week ago (1.13.2)
 •  Unread

Telvaine wrote:
1 week ago
You have captured pretty much everything that I hate about the majority of the expansions lore-wise. I can't stand the "chosen one" "champion of Azeroth" bullshit that is ubiquitous in retail. I also completely agree with you that the scripted "we hate the red guys" stuff in retail is pretty insufferable, nothing beats actual hatred for the players behind the characters that you develop through your interactions with actual players in the game.

The only aspect that you didn't mention that makes most of the expansions boring is the lack of a real, ominous, antagonist, as I've mentioned in other posts about the expansions. That said, Vanilla has no real coherant overarching antagonist, which is part of what I enjoy about it. You are just another <class> living in the world of warcraft.
Two things. #1 I wholeheartedly agree on the first half and I think one way to push that actual hatred is through world pvp. Goading the playerbase on each individual server to meet head on (perhaps for a carrot, though I hate that type of development style) would be great.

#2 I think Classic+ needs to steer clear of an overarching antagonist and focus more on the macro level. This will excite people and change the course from what has been consistently hammered down our throats for expansions on end. I concur wholeheartedly with you. Great post.

   Midoo
Tirisfal Glades
User avatar
Posts: 52
Likes: 37
Undead
Mage
1 week ago (1.13.2)
 •  Unread

I perceive the current generation of Warcraft the same way. The spectacle scope has grown to proportions larger than our relationship with the characters. Characters that are expended within a couple years time with a handful of memorable, yet annoying, quotes.

The relation to our characters are lost within the mechanics. Where with talent trees some follow the same path, and others create ironic (meme) or personal builds. I think the more modern MMORPG experience would be a highly customizable and adaptive system. Where spells adjust to the frequency of use, allowing the build up to more powerful skills in combinations. Making spell rotations the thing that makes the character unique rather than copy/paste.

There is a ton of satisfaction that is lost within standardization of video games.

   Midoo
Image
Shaman Enhancement
User avatar
Posts: 333
Likes: 117
Troll
Shaman
1 week ago (1.13.2)
 •  Unread

Well, it sounds like Blizzard will fuck up what YOU believe Classic+ will be.

I don't really have any expectation for anything storywise.

Like, hey, it's patch 1.14, Grim Batol raid is now open for 20 man raiders, here's a tiny, not particularly intricate lore justification, the black dragonflight or whatever...and that's it. Maybe a related profession quest or two for some crafting recipes that requires mats out in the world and some in the instance.

Like, I think you have very, very defined expectations for what this deal will be when Blizzard doesn't even know yet. Calm down and relax on the prophetic essays.

Gensei - Shaman, Bloodsail Buccaneers
Similar topics
to 'My opinion on Classic+'
Posts ViewsLast post