https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t ... /286941/20

 Blizzard Entertainment

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We’ve been monitoring players’ use of layers, and we agree that we should add a delay between subsequent layer transfers. Under the hood we have all the controls I talked about in the Reddit AMA before launch, a few secret weapons we haven’t discussed publicly, and we’re working on deploying some additional controls to further restrain layering from being exploitable.

However, we also want to assure you that the issue is a much smaller problem than some people are claiming. We’ve been closely monitoring the effect layering is having on economies and other aspects of the game, and many of the stories we see posted are wildly inaccurate. We’ve seen screenshots of banks full of rare crafting materials, which we’ve investigated and proved false.

Another popular theory is that you can determine your current layer by doing a /who in a capital city, and comparing the results against the /who your friend does. That doesn’t work because /who returns results from the entire realm, not just from your layer, and if the result set is too large it truncates the results before sorting them. This means every player gets different results, but those differences in result set have nothing to do with which layer you’re on. This has led some people to claim that they’ve discovered dozens of layers per realm, but that claim is completely false.

All realms have a single-digit number of layers. Most of them have a low single-digit number.

Rest assured that there are not people running around with banks full of (Thorium) Arcane Crystals or Black Lotus.

This confirms my thoughts on layering. I have seen people on here either blaming layering for their bad experiences, or not understanding how layering was functioning. It is good to see they are monitoring it closely, calling out the bullshit and continue to tweak and implement more restrictions on layer abuse.

I also learnt something else today, and that is that Stormwind is the city of choice over Ironforge. This was true on Private servers what I saw playing limited alliance also. I think this is because of shared Auction House from day 1. There is no longer the need to all go to one city to get the best supply/demand auction house. Watching Staysafe's stream and he logged into bank alt with a bustling Stormwind, then back to his Main with a quiet (not empty, but quiet) Ironforge. The meta continues to show itself?

Low single digit layer count provides a lot more optimism for the 'squish' pre-Phase 2. Once the tourists and Black Monarch leave Classic I think it will work out ok - there will be some outliers though with the hugely populated servers, and streamer servers - which are more likely to retain high population over the next couple of months.

Thanks for posting this. I was downvoted to hell on reddit saying that just a single photoshop and hearsay was not enough proof, and that Blizzard has far too advanced tools to detect any sort of exploitation that one addon was claimed to be doing. Even if there was such an exploit like this (which there wasn't), Blizzard can safely detect all the item/gold transfers between characters which are logged anyway, and ban / remove the gold & items gained this way far too easily. Why do you think gold buyers / sellers were banned so easily (as WoW developed over time)?

Classic was also built on retail systems, which means all these systems to detect abnormalities are in place.

Good for Blizzard to snip the rumors by literally saying "Those screenshots are fake eat dirt".

The fact that they have to restrict it tells me i was right about it though. It is being abused enough to be a problem.

Instinctz wrote: ↑

5 years ago

The fact that they have to restrict it tells me i was right about it though. It is being abused enough to be a problem.

Well tbh any abuse in anyform is grounds for restriction. I doubt the amount you were sooo right of this tttterrrrifying layer abuse is something nobody will notice in anyway on a server which has more than 50 ppl online.

Isomena wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Instinctz wrote: ↑

5 years ago

The fact that they have to restrict it tells me i was right about it though. It is being abused enough to be a problem.

Well tbh any abuse in anyform is grounds for restriction. I doubt the amount you were sooo right of this tttterrrrifying layer abuse is something nobody will notice in anyway on a server which has more than 50 ppl online.

Doesnt matter. Blizzard should have just stuck with sharding low level zones over something that impacts the economy like layering.

So basically a lot of people claiming layering is destroying the game has been faking screenshots of bank accounts and making a mountain of a grain of salt. At least we now know from first hand.

Instinctz wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Isomena wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Instinctz wrote: ↑

5 years ago

The fact that they have to restrict it tells me i was right about it though. It is being abused enough to be a problem.

Well tbh any abuse in anyform is grounds for restriction. I doubt the amount you were sooo right of this tttterrrrifying layer abuse is something nobody will notice in anyway on a server which has more than 50 ppl online.

Doesnt matter. Blizzard should have just stuck with sharding low level zones over something that impacts the economy like layering.

How far is low level zones? No need for sharding if you dont let more than the pop cap on the server, and if you let more what happens if too many leave the sharded place? Server crashes because of this 24/7 till enough people stop? You join a que for duskwood or what ever the nonsharded place is? How would it work in your mind, Im curious.

Also we would have up to 30 realms in eu without layering to not have huuuuuuge ques on each realm. What you do when tourists leave? 10 realms on low, server migrates, people reeeeeing about their server communitys being MASSACRED by blizz, why didnt you use layering blabla.

As someone who has abused layering as I leveled, it is a major concern. I have abused layering for two escort quests. Me and my team simultaneously camped Prince for Tidal charm on 3 layers at the same time for almost 8 hours and guess what? We got a tidal charm. We have also used it while farming devilsaurs as a team. I have personally used it to escape ganks and corpse camping. Look in the world chat of any server and tell me this isnt an issue. A WALL of players asking for layer invites. Dont get me wrong, there are people exaggerating how much they are able to do with layering, but layering is fucking massive! It makes the world feel empty and it rewards layer hopping.

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

5 years ago

As someone who has abused layering as I leveled, it is a major concern. I have abused layering for two escort quests. Me and my team simultaneously camped Prince for Tidal charm on 3 layers at the same time for almost 8 hours and guess what? We got a tidal charm. We have also used it while farming devilsaurs as a team. I have personally used it to escape ganks and corpse camping. Look in the world chat of any server and tell me this isnt an issue. A WALL of players asking for layer invites. Dont get me wrong, there are people exaggerating how much they are able to do with layering, but layering is fucking massive! It makes the world feel empty and it rewards layer hopping.

Thank you.

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

5 years ago

As someone who has abused layering as I leveled, it is a major concern. I have abused layering for two escort quests. Me and my team simultaneously camped Prince for Tidal charm on 3 layers at the same time for almost 8 hours and guess what? We got a tidal charm. We have also used it while farming devilsaurs as a team. I have personally used it to escape ganks and corpse camping. Look in the world chat of any server and tell me this isnt an issue. A WALL of players asking for layer invites. Dont get me wrong, there are people exaggerating how much they are able to do with layering, but layering is fucking massive! It makes the world feel empty and it rewards layer hopping.

Yes it comes with big differences from vanilla but none of those things matter once layering is gone they are a drop in the river if u managed to get a good chunck of devilsaur skin, is it sad people do that, yes, does it maybe affect the game/economy abit on the short run, yes but its not gonna be game breaking. By december there wont most likely on 99% of the servers be even a mark of layering existing at the current moment. Maybe in most extreme cases where unemployed melt their brains off infront of the pc screen. In the majority of players even that wont matter almost at all.
Your 3sec stun trinket doesnt matter, you get a kill in world pvp with it or smh? Kinda dont see that as massive tbh, did you get it by abusing layering, yes.

If layering really fucks up the game for the long run, I ll eat my words but I hope and think that it wont happen.

Also would like to hear ideas of other solutions that could of been implemented, said something about sharding low level zones, its upto discussion but I just dont see it work.

Not defending layering and Im not happy about it, but I think it has some good in it that everybody gets to play where they want, and mostly now that ques are gone in eu, whenever they want.

I'm currently layering hopping within guild to farm devilsaurs with a 3 man team. Yes. Thats right. WIthin guild. There is no sticky layering for guild members. We are all on different layers and I am jumping layers every 15 mins. We are farming devilsaurs uncontested and when we hop they are typically full of devilsaurs. Have been doing this all day. Layers are cancer.

Selexin wrote: ↑

5 years ago

a few secret weapons we haven’t discussed publicly

I wonder what this means?

Caperfin wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Selexin wrote: ↑

5 years ago

a few secret weapons we haven’t discussed publicly

I wonder what this means?

It means they havent done anything. And layering worked as we had anticipated as I am experiencing first hand. Lol. But instead of acknowledging that they have a "secret weapon".

Meanwhile I just made two full devilsaur sets in 2 hours with a 2 man team. 1 guy logged.

We run around and kill devilsaurs for 10-15 mins. PM a guildy (they SHOULD be on our layer if layering worked as Blizz said it would) we jump layers (typically or invite someone else and do it right after) and then go again. There is no cooldown. There is no downside. We are farming WAY more skins than would be possible in a single world with a longer respawn. When we face competition we either kill them, or if they have more guys, we jump to a different layer and avoid confrontation. Layering is awful.

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

5 years ago

As someone who has abused layering as I leveled, it is a major concern. I have abused layering for two escort quests. Me and my team simultaneously camped Prince for Tidal charm on 3 layers at the same time for almost 8 hours and guess what? We got a tidal charm. We have also used it while farming devilsaurs as a team. I have personally used it to escape ganks and corpse camping. Look in the world chat of any server and tell me this isnt an issue. A WALL of players asking for layer invites. Dont get me wrong, there are people exaggerating how much they are able to do with layering, but layering is fucking massive! It makes the world feel empty and it rewards layer hopping.

I guess I'm lucky to have chosen the right server - on Ten Storms (EU) haven't read a single message in the world chat about layering. And I have been online a lot of time in the past days.

I understand layering might be a problem tho.

Selexin wrote: ↑

5 years ago

I also learnt something else today, and that is that Stormwind is the city of choice over Ironforge. This was true on Private servers what I saw playing limited alliance also. I think this is because of shared Auction House from day 1. There is no longer the need to all go to one city to get the best supply/demand auction house. Watching Staysafe's stream and he logged into bank alt with a bustling Stormwind, then back to his Main with a quiet (not empty, but quiet) Ironforge. The meta continues to show itself?

This was not true on private. Nor is it the meta. The meta for alliance raiders is to set their hearth at menethil harbor which further emphasizes the mass trade that occurs within ironforge. I assume this is in response to my screenshots showing an empty ironforge, which hasnt changed by the way. You can try and manipulate layering as much as you want to protect your ideology of the system and the stance you took on it prelaunch, but it is here in full force and it is awful. As someone who is abusing it daily, the system is garbage. It does NONE of the things Blizz said it was going to do. There is no delay switching layers. There is no penalty in switching. There is no sticky layering within guilds. There is nothing that they said there would be. The system is sharding.

I have been farming devilsaurs for two days straight. I'm giving you my word that this system has no restrictions. I have personally tested it and this is how it works... Its just a series of game worlds that you can hop between as you wish. Thats it. No sticky layers. No layer delay. Nothing. Just a divided world. Source: I killed ~200 devilsaurs today - layer hopped the whole time (sometimes in rapid succession). There are 6 devilsaur spawns in Ungoro. Imagine how many times I hopped? Assuming every layer had a full 6 devilsaurs (they never do) I would have hopped 33 times. But I can assure you I hopped more than triple that over the course of 5-7 hours as most layers have 2-3 devilsaurs or none at all. By cycling between them we get larger yields. We also track who we invited and how many they gave us. If we get two guys back to back as our host and they both yield 6, we know these two are on separate layers so we wait for the devilsaur respawn timer and do those two guys back to back, and guess what? Both layers are full again. We can use a variety of techniques to determine what layer we are on, like weather effects. We are manipulating layering with ease and we are getting better at it constantly.

I play on Firemaw EU and layering does get abused.
People even created a global chat to manage layering.
It's really making the easiest version of WOW even easier and does interesting shit to the economy: you get plenty for your money at the moment, and my inner goblin is already mad with using all these investment opportunities.

Because there are way more moneysinks than coins atm it really feels like the boomer economy, where you were getting houses and ships for three apples.

If you can be patienced it's a good time to do some flipping and investing. No one can / will pay big bucks at the moment - use it!

FTHforever wrote: ↑

5 years ago

I play on Firemaw EU and layering does get abused.
People even created a global chat to manage layering.
It's really making the easiest version of WOW even easier and does interesting shit to the economy: you get plenty for your money at the moment, and my inner goblin is already mad with using all these investment opportunities.

Because there are way more moneysinks than coins atm it really feels like the boomer economy, where you were getting houses and ships for three apples.

If you can be patienced it's a good time to do some flipping and investing. No one can / will pay big bucks at the moment - use it!

Yes. Of course. Plugging our ears and closing our eyes and saying "see see its just fine, everything is fine!"... No. Its bad. Layering is demonstratively bad. We are ingame, are you guys??? What the hell are you looking at lol? Layering is awful and is being abused by a ton of players. And if youre not abusing it, youre artificially inflating the challenge of your own game, because layer hopping pays off big time.

As someone who abused cleaving to level and is now abusing layering to make gold, I am telling you that these things are broken. I'm not basing my opinion on things i'm hearing or what blue posts are saying or what I feel like is happening on my realm... I. Am. Abusing. Layering. And it is massive.

Don't know anything about that crap and don't care. I just play and have fun.

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

5 years ago

FTHforever wrote: ↑

5 years ago

I play on Firemaw EU and layering does get abused.
People even created a global chat to manage layering.
It's really making the easiest version of WOW even easier and does interesting shit to the economy: you get plenty for your money at the moment, and my inner goblin is already mad with using all these investment opportunities.

Because there are way more moneysinks than coins atm it really feels like the boomer economy, where you were getting houses and ships for three apples.

If you can be patienced it's a good time to do some flipping and investing. No one can / will pay big bucks at the moment - use it!

Yes. Of course. Plugging our ears and closing our eyes and saying "see see its just fine, everything is fine!"... No. Its bad. Layering is demonstratively bad. We are ingame, are you guys??? What the hell are you looking at lol? Layering is awful and is being abused by a ton of players. And if youre not abusing it, youre artificially inflating the challenge of your own game, because layer hopping pays off big time.

As someone who abused cleaving to level and is now abusing layering to make gold, I am telling you that these things are broken. I'm not basing my opinion on things i'm hearing or what blue posts are saying or what I feel like is happening on my realm... I. Am. Abusing. Layering. And it is massive.

Congrats I guess? Exploiting and abusing in game systems to gain an "edge" in Classic WoW. Ok.

What is dumb is that layering is active in zones after 30 and in Capital cities. Why is layering needed in Ungoro Crater for example?

RedridgeGnoll wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Congrats I guess? Exploiting and abusing in game systems to gain an "edge" in Classic WoW. Ok.

What is dumb is that layering is active in zones after 30 and in Capital cities. Why is layering needed in Ungoro Crater for example?

I'm a competitive guy. I'm going to do everything I can within a rule set to gain an advantage. If its in the game, I'm going to use it. I may hate it, but its part of the game now. What is dumb is that layering is in the game. Layering isnt needed anywhere, but Blizz decided to go with mega servers, so this is what we have. And I will abuse this until it is gone. And lets acknowledge that abusing it is incredibly lucrative.

Zacheous wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Don't know anything about that crap and don't care. I just play and have fun.

Thats nice.

Selexin wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Once the tourists and Black Monarch leave Classic I think it will work out ok

You're going to be waiting a couple of years, bro.

Well I managed to farm 22 Devilsaur leathers in less than 2 hours by using layering. Shit's totally fine though, it's not being abused at all (except by literally everyone I have on my friendlist and in my guild).

One thing is for sure, thanks god they came out and talked about it, I really hope they learned their community management lesson so far.

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

5 years ago

I'm currently layering hopping within guild to farm devilsaurs with a 3 man team. Yes. Thats right. WIthin guild.

I think this pretty much describes it.

f3nn wrote: ↑

5 years ago

I think this pretty much describes it.

Yep. I think its hilarious that the people who are sub level 40 want to have an opinion on this topic and are arguing with those of us who have been abusing the system. We arent blowing this out of proportion, layering is fucking nuts. If its used properly you can get FAR more resources than you would ever be capable of on a single server. Even one with dynamic respawns. Farming a devilsaur set per hour on private, with very highly tuned dynamic respawns, was never going to happen but with layering its easily obtainable.

Private server with 12k people - hard to get 2 devilsaur leather per hour due to respawns and competition (typically requires a 5man team to fend off PvP).
Classic server with XXk people (mega server) - easy to get 20-25+ leather per hour (with a 3 man team quickly cycling layers - NO PvP, and if there is, is easily avoidable with hopping).

And no, there is NO sticky function to layers. I leveled on a cleave team from 1-50 with the same guys. Guys who are in my guild and on my bnet. Guys who I play with EVERY day. And guess what? When one invites me to a party, I often get layer shifted. And guess what? When we transition layers while hunting devilsaurs, we ask for layer invites in guild. And guess what? When I cycle between 5-10 layers (most being repeats) in a 5min time frame, I dont get a lockout. Layering does nothing that they said it would do. Anyone defending layering at this point is simply too ignorant to understand the implications of abusing the system, likely because they are too low of a level or simply havent attempted to abuse the system themselves. Just because you cant understand whats happening, doesnt mean that it isnt happening.

@stfuppercut

I think the counterpoint to this is that the amount of resource output vs the number of players on the server should be correct. And if there are a finite number of layers with a set respawn time spread across all of them, you are able to harvest this many resources from the layers because there's not many other groups competing across the layers as you are.

Put another way, if another group gets to a layer and harvests then that layer will be dry by the time you get to it.

It sounds like this benefits the single player farming disproportionately but the output of the server must be this high to feed the combined consumption of the megaserver.

I forget what it's called, but there is an economic model that predicts the same outcome in pretty much any economic system - I don't remember the numbers so I'll just boil it down to the abstract idea that a minority of the people in any field produce the majority of the output. A small handful of musicians produce the majority of hit music, a small handful of manufactures manufacture the majority of consumed goods, small minority of painters produce the majority of museum pieces, minority of farmers farm the majority of devilsaur leather.

I'd argue that if you were unable to hop layers so easily and make a killing on harvesting devilsaur that the combined consumption demand from the megaserver would cause the prices to become impossibly expensive for most players. So you're going to make a killing on harvesting this stuff but it's just a side effect of the amount of players who need your product. The server can only produce a finite amount of this stuff and the fact that you're able to do so largely unopposed means that not many others are in the business right now.

Another counterpoint is that the fact that you leveled so fast puts you in a small group of players able to do the farming. On a small flat server you would still be producing a large percentage of these resources. The exact number would be lower, but so would the customer base.

I'm not arguing that you're wrong about any of this. Just some counterpoints that a reason why it is so lucrative is the enormous customer base that you have.