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2 months ago (1.13.2)
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RedridgeGnoll wrote:
2 months ago
Blizzard agrees with me. Look at retail. The PvE is more challenging. The PvP is more competitive. There is no argument there

A lot of the players streaming Classic WoW are competitive. Many of them are top Arena players or Raiders. Some of the other streamers are competitive fps players. Classic WoW PvP lacks any competitive systems or ratings apart from honor grinding in battlegrounds. Nobody wants to watch or stream that. That is why I am devising a World PvP system for Classic WoW.
And the community disagrees which is why Classic has had such incredible success. But, if you agree with Blizzard, retail is there for you. I'd recommend playing that.

Selexin wrote:
3 weeks ago
I'll have you know we have many resident developers who were involved in the creation of Vanilla WoW that have fantastically fool proof solutions to allll the imaginary problems!!!
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2 months ago (1.13.2)
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Stfuppercut wrote:
2 months ago
RedridgeGnoll wrote:
2 months ago
Blizzard agrees with me. Look at retail. The PvE is more challenging. The PvP is more competitive. There is no argument there

A lot of the players streaming Classic WoW are competitive. Many of them are top Arena players or Raiders. Some of the other streamers are competitive fps players. Classic WoW PvP lacks any competitive systems or ratings apart from honor grinding in battlegrounds. Nobody wants to watch or stream that. That is why I am devising a World PvP system for Classic WoW.
And the community disagrees which is why Classic has had such incredible success. But, if you agree with Blizzard, retail is there for you. I'd recommend playing that.
Yes I know. While players like you were salivating over The Burning Crusade or Wrath of the Lich King, I was spending thousands of hours on WoW forums and private servers denouncing the expansions and explaining why Classic should be brought back. I've been doing this since 2006. Does that make me insane? Partially. I argued over the direction of Vanilla WoW before TBC was even released. I don't think Classic WoW is a perfect game. I think it is actually more casual than the expansions in many respects. It encourages socialization. However, I do think that some systems like PvP could be improved. Crossrealm battlegrounds will likely do more harm than good. A lot of the appeal there is nostalgia, especially considering AB/WSG/AV have been part of retail ever since. World PvP is the key, since the World is the heart of WoW. I got to test Vanilla WoW a year before it came out. All I did was play the game, argue on the beta forums, and offer feedback. Vanilla WoW was rooted in the design of games like Everquest and Dark Age of Camelot, as well as inspired by the communities that those games created. I saw what Blizzard did once they abandoned all of that. They made the The Burning Crusade, and the MMORPG genre has been cursed ever since.

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2 months ago (1.13.2)
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RedridgeGnoll wrote:
2 months ago
Yes I know. While players like you were salivating over The Burning Crusade or Wrath of the Lich King, I was spending thousands of hours on WoW forums and private servers denouncing the expansions and explaining why Classic should be brought back. I've been doing this since 2006. Does that make me insane? Partially. I argued over the direction of Vanilla WoW before TBC was even released. I don't think Classic WoW is a perfect game. I think it is actually more casual than the expansions in many respects. It encourages socialization. However, I do think that some systems like PvP could be improved. Crossrealm battlegrounds will likely do more harm than good. A lot of the appeal there is nostalgia, especially considering AB/WSG/AV have been part of retail ever since. World PvP is the key, since the World is the heart of WoW. I got to test Vanilla WoW a year before it came out. All I did was play the game, argue on the beta forums, and offer feedback. Vanilla WoW was rooted in the design of games like Everquest and Dark Age of Camelot, as well as inspired by the communities that those games created. I saw what Blizzard did once they abandoned all of that. They made the The Burning Crusade, and the MMORPG genre has been cursed ever since.
Players like me were having reasonable discussions and playing on private. Discussions that are so reasonable that Blizzard decided to create Classic. Being the crazy guy on the subway screeching at the top of your lungs is no way to promote interest in something regardless if you were right or wrong. Your posts push far more away from your ideas than they do to help build the idea itself. Your approach is awful. Your ideas are poorly thought out. You do a lot more harm than you do good, whether you realize it or not.

Selexin wrote:
3 weeks ago
I'll have you know we have many resident developers who were involved in the creation of Vanilla WoW that have fantastically fool proof solutions to allll the imaginary problems!!!
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2 months ago (1.13.2)
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Stfuppercut wrote:
2 months ago
Which is not representative of the hardcore community. They are streaming. Their content needs to be watchable. They will stream Classic until it no longer draws the most eyes and move on. A streamers stay in Classic is not representative of the hardcore draw towards Classic.
The only exception to this is the private server streamers who stopped streaming private servers to prep and focus on Classic WoW launch (Esfand, TipsOut & Staysafe). These guys will be streaming Classic WoW for years to come. Others like Asmongold will eventually go back to Retail, or switch back and forth. He was never a private server streamer, he was never fully committed to the vanilla scene.

I don't like TipsOut very much. Staysafe I can handle and I really enjoy watching Esfand. He is skillful, knowledgeable and realistic with expectations in game - while also being quite funny/witty. Asmongold is hit and miss for me. I prefer him when he is being more serious/down to earth (which is typically when he is chatting on someone else's stream rather than his own).

I don't watch them often (Aus timezone vs. USA timezone) but if Esfand or Staysafe stream while I am leveling, I'll put it on the second monitor. They talk about the game, they are on end game content, and they discuss the current meta. It is interesting to see the top end progress guilds and how they are managing their guilds etc.

Edit: Sorry, went off-topic there. I see a lot of hate for most streamers who are tourist/bandwagon streamers - but some streaners are very dedicated to vanilla/classic WoW and that is their long term target audience. Which is players/viewers like myself I guess. I don't want to see streamers playing Retail WoW. I would prefer a completely different game, IRL stream, or just Classic WoW. Personal preference I guess.

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2 months ago (1.13.2)
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Selexin wrote:
2 months ago
Stfuppercut wrote:
2 months ago
Which is not representative of the hardcore community. They are streaming. Their content needs to be watchable. They will stream Classic until it no longer draws the most eyes and move on. A streamers stay in Classic is not representative of the hardcore draw towards Classic.
The only exception to this is the private server streamers who stopped streaming private servers to prep and focus on Classic WoW launch (Esfand, TipsOut & Staysafe). These guys will be streaming Classic WoW for years to come. Others like Asmongold will eventually go back to Retail, or switch back and forth. He was never a private server streamer, he was never fully committed to the vanilla scene.

I don't like TipsOut very much. Staysafe I can handle and I really enjoy watching Esfand. He is skillful, knowledgeable and realistic with expectations in game - while also being quite funny/witty. Asmongold is hit and miss for me. I prefer him when he is being more serious/down to earth (which is typically when he is chatting on someone else's stream rather than his own).

I don't watch them often (Aus timezone vs. USA timezone) but if Esfand or Staysafe stream while I am leveling, I'll put it on the second monitor. They talk about the game, they are on end game content, and they discuss the current meta. It is interesting to see the top end progress guilds and how they are managing their guilds etc.

Edit: Sorry, went off-topic there. I see a lot of hate for most streamers who are tourist/bandwagon streamers - but some streaners are very dedicated to vanilla/classic WoW and that is their long term target audience. Which is players/viewers like myself I guess. I don't want to see streamers playing Retail WoW. I would prefer a completely different game, IRL stream, or just Classic WoW. Personal preference I guess.
Yes, but those streamers pull like 2k viewers. It obvious that Classic WoW will lose interest with most streamers. The question is, is there anyway to keep their interest? Is there something system or mechanic that the game lacked. I am sure Blizzard is asking themselves this. Classic is great, but why don't these streamers want to stay?

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2 months ago (1.13.2)
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RedridgeGnoll wrote:
2 months ago
Yes, but those streamers pull like 2k viewers.
Just checked, Staysafe has 7k viewers - last night Esfand had 12k viewers.

PvP content, PvE content farming, community events, alts, meme specs, challenges. There is plenty to keep them playing and entertaining for a long while. Short attention span zoomers can go back to retail.

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2 months ago (1.13.2)
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Stfuppercut wrote:
2 months ago
RedridgeGnoll wrote:
2 months ago
Yes I know. While players like you were salivating over The Burning Crusade or Wrath of the Lich King, I was spending thousands of hours on WoW forums and private servers denouncing the expansions and explaining why Classic should be brought back. I've been doing this since 2006. Does that make me insane? Partially. I argued over the direction of Vanilla WoW before TBC was even released. I don't think Classic WoW is a perfect game. I think it is actually more casual than the expansions in many respects. It encourages socialization. However, I do think that some systems like PvP could be improved. Crossrealm battlegrounds will likely do more harm than good. A lot of the appeal there is nostalgia, especially considering AB/WSG/AV have been part of retail ever since. World PvP is the key, since the World is the heart of WoW. I got to test Vanilla WoW a year before it came out. All I did was play the game, argue on the beta forums, and offer feedback. Vanilla WoW was rooted in the design of games like Everquest and Dark Age of Camelot, as well as inspired by the communities that those games created. I saw what Blizzard did once they abandoned all of that. They made the The Burning Crusade, and the MMORPG genre has been cursed ever since.
Players like me were having reasonable discussions and playing on private. Discussions that are so reasonable that Blizzard decided to create Classic. Being the crazy guy on the subway screeching at the top of your lungs is no way to promote interest in something regardless if you were right or wrong. Your posts push far more away from your ideas than they do to help build the idea itself. Your approach is awful. Your ideas are poorly thought out. You do a lot more harm than you do good, whether you realize it or not.
My maniacal rantings across a multitude of forums created a lot of discussion. Blizzard was well aware to the point that I was banned from their forums over 20 times for criticizing the expansions. Classic WoW is the best MMORPG in the last 15 years. I've tried a bunch, and they don't even compared to Classic WoW. The developers of these MMORPGs don't even seem to understand why Classic WoW was so good. I am not even sure if Blizzard even does. With that being said, the content will run out. The playerbase will decline, but all can be saved with Classic+ content. Adding better World PvP should be a priority. I am sure your chit chat on the Nostalrius forums were widely read.

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2 months ago (1.13.2)
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RedridgeGnoll wrote:
2 months ago
My maniacal rantings across a multitude of forums created a lot of discussion.
But how much of that was quality? And how many of your suggestions were reasonable or logical? Almost none.
RedridgeGnoll wrote:
2 months ago
Blizzard was well aware to the point that I was banned from their forums over 20 times for criticizing the expansions.
I cant imagine why. You seem like such a level headed and coherent individual. /s
RedridgeGnoll wrote:
2 months ago
Classic WoW is the best MMORPG in the last 15 years. I've tried a bunch, and they don't even compared to Classic WoW. The developers of these MMORPGs don't even seem to understand why Classic WoW was so good. I am not even sure if Blizzard even does. With that being said, the content will run out. The playerbase will decline, but all can be saved with Classic+ content. Adding better World PvP should be a priority. I am sure your chit chat on the Nostalrius forums were widely read.
No one understands but you! You will be the savior of MMO's. We need boat battles, and airdrops and we need a housing system! We need to build ALL PVP OUTDOOR content!!!! Because if the focal point of WoW was PvP THAT WOULD BE GRAND! (that certainly isnt when the game went to shit or anything... /s). Not sure what to tell you. You dont really seem to retain any criticism. You take it well, but its almost as if it rolls off of you to a fault. You dont actually challenge your own ideas or change them when others do. You just rant in an endless loop about the same poorly thought out ideas. My grandmother has dementia and its the same. I love her a lot but it can be pretty exhausting after a few hours. I'm sure its not easy for her though and I am sure its not easy for you. A prisoner in your own mind.

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Selexin wrote:
3 weeks ago
I'll have you know we have many resident developers who were involved in the creation of Vanilla WoW that have fantastically fool proof solutions to allll the imaginary problems!!!
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2 months ago (1.13.2)
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Stfuppercut wrote:
2 months ago
A prisoner in your own mind.
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2 months ago (1.13.2)
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Let's look at the some of the popular streamers playing Classic WoW. A lot of them have already cleared MC + Onyxia. Content like battlegrounds isn't likely to hold their interest. Sure, there is a lot to do for casuals, but what about hardcore or even competitive players?

Blizzard added Arena, Heroics, and harder Raids in TBC for a reason. However, I don't think this type of content would be as popular nowadays. Just look at BFA. So if you are Blizzard, and you want to retain some of these streamers, what would you change about Classic?

I am suggesting that a new PvP system might be the solution. One that is not instanced like Arena. What else could be the solution?

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2 months ago (1.13.2)
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Tilgorn wrote:
2 months ago
Daily Quests - At their conception during The Burning Crusade, daily quests felt like a fun, totally optional way to earn additional gold and rewards. I do not feel that they were the chore-like slog that they eventually evolved in to.
You've obviously never done the grind to exalted with Netherwing or Ogri'la. God, what a nightmare.
RedridgeGnoll wrote:
2 months ago
My maniacal rantings across a multitude of forums created a lot of discussion. Blizzard was well aware to the point that I was banned from their forums over 20 times for criticizing the expansions.
You bought the game 20 times just to keep posting on the forums? Holy shit. Well, I can now sleep comfortably knowing that I'm not the craziest person on this forum.

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2 months ago (1.13.2)
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Black Monarch wrote:
2 months ago
Tilgorn wrote:
2 months ago
Daily Quests - At their conception during The Burning Crusade, daily quests felt like a fun, totally optional way to earn additional gold and rewards. I do not feel that they were the chore-like slog that they eventually evolved in to.
You've obviously never done the grind to exalted with Netherwing or Ogri'la. God, what a nightmare.
RedridgeGnoll wrote:
2 months ago
My maniacal rantings across a multitude of forums created a lot of discussion. Blizzard was well aware to the point that I was banned from their forums over 20 times for criticizing the expansions.
You bought the game 20 times just to keep posting on the forums? Holy shit. Well, I can now sleep comfortably knowing that I'm not the craziest person on this forum.
I did the Nethering grind after TBC. The one with the eggs. It was pretty brutal. I can just imagine how it was in TBC.

I didn't buy WoW copies. I bought Diablo 2 battlechests usually to get access to the forums.

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2 months ago (1.13.2)
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RedridgeGnoll wrote:
2 months ago
I didn't buy WoW copies. I bought Diablo 2 battlechests usually to get access to the forums.
Holy shit...

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2 months ago (1.13.2)
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There is a bunch of personal prefences here, I'd honestly love TBC and by far the most beloved PvP expansion by all my friends around.

Saying how something is uncreative and imbalanced without a solution/suggestion is what we famuously call: QQing. Sorry.

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2 months ago (1.13.2)
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Yup I'll support TBC because I love arenas. I'm well aware of all the other flaws with it, but that's why I think it should be on separate servers where you can import your classic characters.

That said, I hope they leave classic servers alone for at least 3+ years before they release TBC, since as people have stated throughout the multiple threads, the original TBC came way too fast.

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2 months ago (1.13.2)
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RedridgeGnoll wrote:
2 months ago
I want them to remember how flying mounts killed off World PvP and shrunk the 7 zone continent to an even smaller size.
I want them to remember how much better Horde was than Alliance.
I want them to remember how awful Shattrah was as a capital city.
World PvP was never considered the true representation of one's "skill". Not many people were invested in Wpvp because of the imbalance in gear, experience, etc... between players. Arenas was the epitome of pvp with players on relatively similar playing field.
Why is Horde better than Alliance?
Shat was awful for me because of the massive lag. (its somewhat fixed on tbc pserver)

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2 months ago (1.13.2)
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RedridgeGnoll wrote:
2 months ago
I want The Burning Crusade after Classic, so that rose-tinted glasses can shatter. It will only further solidfy the greatness of Classic WoW.
Sounds similar to certain rhetoric about Classic. Considering how many people like TBC (and how generally, the game continued growing after it released), we would have to wait and see about that.

Half your points are opinions that could be refuted because of their content (Nagrand is a nice zone for example, some people liked Shattrath) and their premise (everyone being 'stuck' in Outland, as if new players were instantly ported to level 60, as if all of Azeroth 'disappeared' and didnt make up a significant portion of the game still).

Ignoring all of that, you could make an incredibly similar post about the flaws of Vanilla and how 'nostalgia is all that drives the want for it'. The fact that you can even make this argument without noticing the evident hypocrisy is astounding.

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2 months ago (1.13.2)
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I don’t disagree with a lot of your points.

However, I did enjoy TBC.

The real question is, how are Blizzard going to maintain subscribers.

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2 months ago (1.13.2)
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Casp wrote:
2 months ago
RedridgeGnoll wrote:
2 months ago
I want The Burning Crusade after Classic, so that rose-tinted glasses can shatter. It will only further solidfy the greatness of Classic WoW.
Sounds similar to certain rhetoric about Classic. Considering how many people like TBC (and how generally, the game continued growing after it released), we would have to wait and see about that.

Half your points are opinions that could be refuted because of their content (Nagrand is a nice zone for example, some people liked Shattrath) and their premise (everyone being 'stuck' in Outland, as if new players were instantly ported to level 60, as if all of Azeroth 'disappeared' and didnt make up a significant portion of the game still).

Ignoring all of that, you could make an incredibly similar post about the flaws of Vanilla and how 'nostalgia is all that drives the want for it'. The fact that you can even make this argument without noticing the evident hypocrisy is astounding.
Nagrand is a nice zone, but it was in Warlords of Draenor again. I am making the argument that TBC caters to a much smaller audience than Vanilla. Which is why Blizzard should't even bother. TBC shares a lot in common with retail. Classic does not. That is why the demand for Classic was so great. Players can already do heroic modes, flying mounts, arena, daily quests, badge gea, hang out in a small continent etc... on Retail.

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2 months ago (1.13.2)
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RedridgeGnoll wrote:
2 months ago
I didn't buy WoW copies. I bought Diablo 2 battlechests usually to get access to the forums.
That makes no sense. You can't post on the blizzard WoW forums without an active WoW subscription.
RedridgeGnoll wrote:
2 months ago
TBC shares a lot in common with retail. Classic does not.
Hahahaha no. Sooooo wrong. If all of WoW history were to be divided into two major periods, "stuff more similar to classic than to BfA" versus "stuff more similar to BfA than to classic", then the dividing line is very obviously between MoP and Warlords. It was that first stat squish, the use of a bronze dragon to flip between pre-WoD and post-WoD versions of the Blasted Lands, the gating of the new continent behind a single-player scenario, and the sudden and total irrelevance of professions and all level 1-90 content that marks the point when all the bad ideas that had been building up over the years fully metastasized all at once.

BC was just Classic with a bunch of stuff added.

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2 months ago (1.13.2)
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Black Monarch wrote:
2 months ago
RedridgeGnoll wrote:
2 months ago
I didn't buy WoW copies. I bought Diablo 2 battlechests usually to get access to the forums.
That makes no sense. You can't post on the blizzard WoW forums without an active WoW subscription.
RedridgeGnoll wrote:
2 months ago
TBC shares a lot in common with retail. Classic does not.
Hahahaha no. Sooooo wrong. If all of WoW history were to be divided into two major periods, "stuff more similar to classic than to BfA" versus "stuff more similar to BfA than to classic", then the dividing line is very obviously between MoP and Warlords. It was that first stat squish, the use of a bronze dragon to flip between pre-WoD and post-WoD versions of the Blasted Lands, the gating of the new continent behind a single-player scenario, and the sudden and total irrelevance of professions and all level 1-90 content that marks the point when all the bad ideas that had been building up over the years fully metastasized all at once.

BC was just Classic with a bunch of stuff added.
You didn't need a WoW account to post back then.

Burning Crusade and the expansions share a lot in common.

- End-game focused
- Flying mounts
- 7 zone continent replaces the old world
- Neutral capital city
- Arena
- multiple dungeon difficulties
- Gear divide. PvP and PvE gear are now separate due to Resilience
- Classes available on all factions. Paladin/shaman
- Homogenous class design
- PvE Gear vendors

And much much more. TBC is played just like BFA in 2019.

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2 months ago (1.13.2)
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Honestly if people want to chuck rocks in the sand I say let them have it. My enjoyment of a game isn't affected by what people ask for as long as they don't ask for changes in that game in particular.

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2 months ago (1.13.2)
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Midoo wrote:
2 months ago
Honestly if people want to chuck rocks in the sand I say let them have it. My enjoyment of a game isn't affected by what people ask for as long as they don't ask for changes in that game in particular.
Likewise - but my enjoyment of the forums is affected by the same beaten old horse of a subject that is Classic+ advocacy reappearing every day.

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2 months ago (1.13.2)
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As long as "future" expansions come in separate servers, I'm ok with TBC (and hopefully we'll get Wrath later).

I'm also ok with Classic+ and rebalancing in the future.

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2 months ago (1.13.2)
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@Knoll, as an avid player since the original Vanilla, I have seen the good and bad. Blizzard does care about its fan base and does take into account compared to other MMORPGS on PC. Everyone has opinions but you shouldnt knock people for liking expansions. That's saying hey you like Destiny but dont get expansions because they suck. I agree some aspects of each expansion are were bad but a lot of good came from them too. I've meet a lot of people online and even met several in RL. I've chatted with my friends about how cool it would be if Blizzard relaunched Wow Vanilla v.2. Once they did, I was worried about all the updates of every day almost for like 30+ of server maintenance. I get the queues but they are handling that with more servers.

Look, I got into WoW due to Warcraft games especially 3. I dreamed of the day I could be like Illidan and got my wish. I dreamed of different dungeons and raids of which especially in TBC was phenomenal. I wanted to have my own Stronghold as well as Shipyard. Yes, I know it killed the economy a bit, but for someone who started WoW at 20 years old and was in the Navy stationed in Japan, my friends back home and new friends I met online kept in touch.

Honestly, I don't tell people off but you had some good points but also some crappy ones.

1. Vanilla or any MMORPG is going to be grindy. If you dont want that , then play Fort Nite or Candy Crush.

2. TBC had great lore as well as dungeons and such, you're crazy for thinking not so.

3. If you dont like it, stop blasting it and others for likening or even loving this concept of them bringing back classics of when they had a lot of balances on a certain version.

4. If you're so against WoW then get the F off and go annoy a bunch of other players
in that game in particular.

5. Thank you and have a great day.

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