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4 months ago (Beta)
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Hi Guys,

First post here despite the fact I come here every day to learn from you guys.

Alliance Side, We are making a 5-man team for the launch which include so far :

  • A warrior (arms)
    A Priest (heal)
    A Druid (feral)
    A rogue (combat or maybe Subtlety for huge crits from behind in dungeon)

The last one is opened to discussion.

What would be the most efficient class to bring with this group ? From a leveling point of view but also from a 60 point of view ?

Happy to discuss with you about this question.

Vif

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4 months ago (Beta)
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Deleting what I said here as I was not clear on what a "cleave team" is, though it's a shame it had to be addressed in such a way.

Gensei - Shaman
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4 months ago (Beta)
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Gensei wrote:
4 months ago
So my first response to anything about a class to play is: can you (or whoever is playing it) level it? All this planning and such doesn't matter if you're going to hate the class and burn out on it.

That being said, pretty much anything works. A caster dps would be good. But maybe the best option would be a hunter to buff Trueshot aura. If you do go hunter, the priest will definitely have a monopoly on the cloth gear.
What? No. No no no... He's making a 5 man cleave team. He wants the best group comp. You clearly have no idea what a cleave team does / is. And what is this nonsense about anyone can be anything? This isnt even relevant to the question.

Sorry about that OP. If you are making a "5 man cleave team" the base requirement to be defined as that build is having at least 2 warriors. With your current build a 2nd warrior would be excellent. As far as cleaves go, the priest on your team is the BiS healer for the build due to spirit tap. The feral druid will be running flex and will LoS pull with fearie fire so that your warriors can always get their charges off. The druid pops out on omen of clarity procs and gives some healing while primarily running cat with fearire fire and shifting to bear when absolutely needed. The key to a good druid is that they arent peeling from the warriors unless absolutely necessary as to not rage starve the warriors. The rogue is the one responsible for ending combat. His job is to split DPS between the mobs as to not pull threat and to chase / finish combat. The only exception to this will be during his bladeflurry bursts. The rogue can also set the priest up for easy priest kills by getting the mob low with controlled DPS (unlike the warriors) and then kidney shotting it with cripp poison up and commanding the melee to move away. The rogue should also be the primary bandage maker. While the warriors will make enough bandages to level first aid, your rogue will have the most time on his hands on this team. Some teams running a similar build even go as far as to have the rogue play as your tailor/enchanter as he has more time to make bags and DE things - but this is VERY min/maxy.
(While I'm sure you already know most of the above, I will summarize it so others can understand your current setup)

For your 5th, you desperately want a warrior for this comp to work. The rogue and feral are optional and could easily be replace with a ret or a 3rd warrior. In my experience running cleaves, running 3 warriors on alliance is suboptimal as 1 warrior is typically rage starved. This will be different on horde side with windfury.

So melee cleave comps would be x2 warrior, priest, rogue, feral OR x3 warrior, ret, feral, priest. I have also seen heavy ravager builds with x3 warrior, ret, holy paladin (who also wield ravager). I have also seen people mix in warlock with a heavy heal comp ex: x2 warrior, ret/feral, warlock, priest. Warlocks are ~okay because they can tap. Without having a lot of heals to dump on them they will still slow down the group so you'd only want to do this if you already had a strong base of heals. Mages can also work as a 5th. We did some testing and fire can be crazy if you can round up enough mobs but generally running and arcane build for explosions is best / easiest. You can also make a case for hunters if you cant get anything else. Hunters are ~okay, just make sure that your hunt has an owl with screech. At a certain point warriors completely carry. You will want at least 2. So I'd recommend a 5th as a warrior based on what youve already built.

Do not build your cleave team around what you want to do at 60. The entire premise of the cleave is to get you to 60 fast AF. These are not builds that you intend on running forever, even during gearing. Any melee cleave will have immense loot competition at 60. Of note, they will also start collecting pre BiS before everyone else and still gear quicker, but you dont build the team around synergies AT 60.

Its as if people arent even reading the questions on this forum anymore. Just "insert random generic casual response that condemns optimization or reinforces casual behavior - be what you want to be / everyone is viable / the most valuable class is YOU because youre a star!."

   Vif
g0bledyg00k wrote:
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4 months ago (Beta)
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Stfuppercut wrote:
4 months ago
Gensei wrote:
4 months ago
So my first response to anything about a class to play is: can you (or whoever is playing it) level it? All this planning and such doesn't matter if you're going to hate the class and burn out on it.

That being said, pretty much anything works. A caster dps would be good. But maybe the best option would be a hunter to buff Trueshot aura. If you do go hunter, the priest will definitely have a monopoly on the cloth gear.
What? No. No no no... He's making a 5 man cleave team. He wants the best group comp. You clearly have no idea what a cleave team does / is. And what is this nonsense about anyone can be anything? This isnt even relevant to the question.

Sorry about that OP.
You are a very nice person.

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4 months ago (Beta)
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Moar warriors, Ideal comp on Ally would be 3 war/pally/priest.

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4 months ago (Beta)
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Wafers wrote:
4 months ago
Moar warriors, Ideal comp on Ally would be 3 war/pally/priest.
yup, the leveling speed is insane.

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4 months ago (Beta)
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We did a lot of tests with 3 warriors. On ally side, 1 warrior is typically rage starved. We found more consistent value running 2 warriors, ret/feral/rogue, with priest heals.

On horde, the clear build is 3 warriors, 1 shaman, 1 priest.

If anyone hasnt had the chance to read Caperfins guide on cleaving check it out here: https://classicwow.live/guides/840/leve ... g-overview

Its filled with so many inaccuracies and is so awful it was removed off of the dungeon cleaving discord immediately. Caperfin goes as far as to suggest you would want a warrior tank in a cleave group... Recommends using a mage in a melee cleave group, which has MASSIVE drawbacks for obvious reasons (forces melee teams to break combat which is opposed to the entire premise of melee cleave teams who typically dont break combat for numerous pulls). He doesnt even mention priest heals which are the BEST healers for both melee cleave (due to spirit tap) and spell cleave for bubbles. He goes as far as to recommend druid healers... Wowowowowow! Yikes. Be careful who you take advice from and remember ANYONE can write a guide, even if they have never cleaved.

After seeing his guide on cleaving and hearing his recent mention of not giving thunderfury to tanks because it isnt very good for tanking, I really question the credibility of any of his guides.

g0bledyg00k wrote:
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4 months ago (Beta)
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Stfuppercut wrote:
4 months ago
He doesnt even mention priest heals which are the BEST healers for both melee cleave (due to spirit tap) and spell cleave for bubbles. He goes as far as to recommend druid healers... Wowowowowow! Yikes. Be careful who you take advice from and remember ANYONE can write a guide, even if they have never cleaved.
The spell-melee cleave section is two brief paragraphs and I am still running tests on it, it's not a guide dedicated to it but more of a guide for general dungeon leveling.

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4 months ago (Beta)
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Caperfin wrote:
4 months ago
The spell-melee cleave section is two brief paragraphs and I am still running tests on it, it's not a guide dedicated to it but more of a guide for general dungeon leveling.
You posted the guide and shared it, not me. Just highlighting how inaccurate it is. There was clearly no testing done before you wrote it out. Just mentioning this because its relevant to this conversation in anticipation that you may have offered OP advice. You should not be offering advice on the topic.

g0bledyg00k wrote:
1 month ago
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4 months ago (Beta)
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Stfuppercut wrote:
4 months ago
Caperfin wrote:
4 months ago
The spell-melee cleave section is two brief paragraphs and I am still running tests on it, it's not a guide dedicated to it but more of a guide for general dungeon leveling.
You posted the guide and shared it, not me. Just highlighting how inaccurate it is. There was clearly no testing done before you wrote it out. Just mentioning this because its relevant to this conversation in anticipation that you may have offered OP advice. You should not be offering advice on the topic.
Base on that, you should not be offering advice or opinions in lore topics but you still do. Double standards? Hypocricy? Somewhere around those lines...

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s1atan wrote:
4 months ago
Base on that, you should not be offering advice or opinions in lore topics but you still do. Double standards? Hypocricy? Somewhere around those lines...
I think there is a difference between prefacing that you are less knowledgeable about a topic and offering your opinion and being someone who presents like they are knowledgeable, goes as far as to publish guides, yet has not cleaved. I feel these are very different situations. I feel like Caper does a lot of indirect harm to the community by presenting as knowledgeable and creating guides when he has no applicable experience. I think its shameful and should be outlined, so I did that here.

Was there something specific regarding my comment on the other forum that showed a lack of understanding or was inherently incorrect? Without derailing this thread, I'd be interested in hearing it on the other thread! Just as I outlined all of the issues I had with Capers guide (which is related to cleaving and his attendance here prompted the guide being brought up), I'd be interested in hearing your criticism there.

For those interested in seeing the post I made that s1atan has an issue with, it can be found here:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2255
I think it was just fine, let us know what you think on that thread!

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4 months ago (Beta)
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Stfuppercut, that's a very interesting answer to say the least. Thank you for that.

As you see at first glance, my point is about min/maxing thing as a 5-team more than you just "play what you want" (which is also very true but kind of irrelevant here).

I'd love to have a perfect composition with a Ret for outstanding buffs and AoE but I have to manage everyone's need/desire in my team.

Based on the following comps : 2 Warriors, 1 Druid, 1 Rogue, 1 Priest, I'd like to ask some questions about the tips you gave us :

  • Do you think it is worth to have a warrior in the Fury side for 5/5 battle Shout / Piercing Howl ? Arms seems better in cleave damage by some extend.
  • Do you think Druid should take Improved Mark of the Wild in the long run ? Your point about Omen of clarity is very true and would you advice to rush it at level20 ?
  • For the Priest, after spirit tap and Meditation, would you go deep holy for the next levels? I might have missed something important.
  • You raise also a point about DE, Is there a threshold where you DE everything you loot ? For bag-space or for long term money maybe?

I hope the answers can raise some good informations for everyone in that mindset !

Vif

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4 months ago (Beta)
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Do you think it is worth to have a warrior in the Fury side for 5/5 battle Shout / Piercing Howl ? Arms seems better in cleave damage by some extend.
One of the warriors will definitely be running BShout, but the early prio is to get sweeping IMO. We tried a lot of different stuff, even attempting to have 1 warrior prio parry and act as the primary while the second warrior took a bit less defensive points and put more into buffing. You have a lot of lenience to play with your spec points assuming both warriors have sweeping strikes. Once they both have sweeping and whirlwind, your DPS is nutty. The dungeon grind disc, found on other threads here is a better resources for the nuances of theorycrafting suffice to say, you have a lot of options pending your comp.

Do you think Druid should take Improved Mark of the Wild in the long run ? Your point about Omen of clarity is very true and would you advice to rush it at level20 ?
This will be the general feral spec https://www.bobo-talents.com/?c=druid&l ... AHA2A3AIAJ but has some room for wiggling a few points around pending the needs of the comp.


For the Priest, after spirit tap and Meditation, would you go deep holy for the next levels? I might have missed something important.
Nope. I would go spirit tap first and then wand to secure killing blows. Communicating priest kills and having the priest secure those kills with the wand is the key to keeping tapping efficient. I would go all the way to divine spirit before starting holy. The emphasis here is spirit tap and mana efficiency above raw healing capacity.


You raise also a point about DE, Is there a threshold where you DE everything you loot ? For bag-space or for long term money maybe?
Yes. Again, this will depend on comps and what vendors / mailboxes are available. Some teams will summon in mule toons or even potentially pay other teams running warlocks to summon in a few mules. Similarly teams will be paying for ports etc and will likely try to coordinate them with guilds. There is no doubt that you will reach certain points where vendoring loot and stacking bolts of cloth will be necessary to reduce the quantity of loot you are leaving behind. Waste is inevitable. The important thing is that this waste is negligible given how much gold you can create at 60, so it wont matter too much in the long run.

g0bledyg00k wrote:
1 month ago
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