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So I'm very much in favor of Classic+. And I could list out many, many reasons why this is the case.

But I have a short, concise point to make here about Classic+.

We have pretty much one shot with this. Once Blizzard decides against doing Classic+, they will probably not consider it again. People say TBC is the safer option, it's the known quantity. We know what we'd be getting. But I think this is an argument in favor of Classic+.

If we have one shot, ever, to try Classic+, we should do it. If it doesn't work, or Blizzard botches it, fine. Then we can just roll with TBC. The devs have already said, if you saw the AMA, that the easiest and simplest option for them is BC. If things look rough, BC is definitely a quick, safe way to breathe life back into the community and the game if shit hits the fan.

But by opting for BC as the first and only option, we might pass up on a version of the game where the sky is the limit on its potential and it might be a super incredible experience to play. I like BC too. It's good. But you can't play Classic+ on any private server. If we're only going to have this one chance to experiment with the Classic model of gameplay and the only chance to expand one of the things that is Vanilla's strength, I.E. a fully comprehensive and connected and relevant world, we should take it.

TL;DR - We realistically have only one real chance to make Classic+ happen, and plenty of chances to make BC to happen. If we don't take the chance on it now, we'll never know what could have been.

   vanillalad Pippina Cook Kall Zanthir Pagwani Vanilj
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far as i'm concerned you can have classic +. on separate servers.
especially if it's going the OSRS style some want. if they change classic servers to classic + OSRS and don't leave us plain old classic i'll quit.

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I was kinda leaning toward BC but there are good points here. I’m not sure if Blizzard will never reconsider Classic+ again, though, but I think it might be smarter to try it first.

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Raggavali wrote:
1 month ago
I was kinda leaning toward BC but there are good points here. I’m not sure if Blizzard will never reconsider Classic+ again, though, but I think it might be smarter to try it first.
I feel like Blizzard wouldn't re-consider it later for a couple reasons. The first is if BC is already out, then they're going to risk splintering the community and, at the same time, people who have BC characters and guilds and friends would be torn between games. But also once TBC is out the door, the model is set, and they'll probably just be getting ready to roll out Wrath. Going back and spending the time and work to revamp old content is a way harder sell once the far easier and cheaper and proven successful route has already been paved.

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I absolutely agree with you. I want classic+, and I want it to be community driven like OSRS. I want to see where the classic gameplay and design philosophies can go. And I want all new content to be put to the community for a vote with a 75% suoer majority required before they even start developing new stuff. And I don't want them to do this for at least a year or two. This is a better route to me than to just move on to TBC and wrath after classic runs it's course.

I came to this forum with a nochanges perspective, but I've changed my mind since then. Vanilla wasn't a game that was set in stone. It was a living, breathing thing that was constantly changing. Trying to capture it within a fixed snapshot of a single patch got us Classic WoW, but it's not going to be the same since we're going to be living in a snapshot. I think an OSRS approach of new content and development to fit the original design philosophies actually brings a more accurate representation of the vanilla experience than a fixed snapshot of a single unchanging patch.

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Pippina wrote:
1 month ago
I absolutely agree with you. I want classic+, and I want it to be community driven like OSRS. I want to see where the classic gameplay and design philosophies can go. And I want all new content to be put to the community for a vote with a 75% suoer majority required before they even start developing new stuff. And I don't want them to do this for at least a year or two. This is a better route to me than to just move on to TBC and wrath after classic runs it's course.

I came to this forum with a nochanges perspective, but I've changed my mind since then. Vanilla wasn't a game that was set in stone. It was a living, breathing thing that was constantly changing. Trying to capture it within a fixed snapshot of a single patch got us Classic WoW, but it's not going to be the same since we're going to be living in a snapshot. I think an OSRS approach of new content and development to fit the original design philosophies actually brings a more accurate representation of the vanilla experience than a fixed snapshot of a single unchanging patch.
What's the TL;DR on OSRS? I'm sure I've heard it talked about but unnamed, idk what the abbreviation means.

But I also heavily agree with everything you said. There's a tremendous amount of potential. I think it's foolish to consider WoW @ 1.12 to be a finished and fully-realized project.

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Is there a universal definition of 'classic+' ?

I can surmise what you guys mean but Im curious.

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Pippina wrote:
1 month ago
I absolutely agree with you. I want classic+, and I want it to be community driven like OSRS. I want to see where the classic gameplay and design philosophies can go. And I want all new content to be put to the community for a vote with a 75% suoer majority required before they even start developing new stuff. And I don't want them to do this for at least a year or two. This is a better route to me than to just move on to TBC and wrath after classic runs it's course.

I came to this forum with a nochanges perspective, but I've changed my mind since then. Vanilla wasn't a game that was set in stone. It was a living, breathing thing that was constantly changing. Trying to capture it within a fixed snapshot of a single patch got us Classic WoW, but it's not going to be the same since we're going to be living in a snapshot. I think an OSRS approach of new content and development to fit the original design philosophies actually brings a more accurate representation of the vanilla experience than a fixed snapshot of a single unchanging patch.
this is a terrible idea. think about it. do you really want people from modern wow voting on changes to classic?

i sure as hell don't. they didn't even want classic in the first place and have been trying to slide through every possible change they can get to make it more like retail.

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Gensei wrote:
1 month ago
What's the TL;DR on OSRS? I'm sure I've heard it talked about but unnamed, idk what the abbreviation means.
OSRS is old school runescape - basically the players vote for changes and if it hits a certain threshold it passes.
the problem with this is that classic and retail are linked by the same sub. i could totally see modern wow fans voting on changes just to make classic like retail.
some have already said they would do this.

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Gensei wrote:
1 month ago
What's the TL;DR on OSRS? I'm sure I've heard it talked about but unnamed, idk what the abbreviation means.

But I also heavily agree with everything you said. There's a tremendous amount of potential. I think it's foolish to consider WoW @ 1.12 to be a finished and fully-realized project.
Oldschool RuneScape. Similar situation to us, the playerbase started to decline over time so they launched a classic version of the game. They forked the game and started developing new content for their classic server after a while. I hear their developers put all new content up to a community vote and require a 75% supermajority before even starting development. They have something like weekly status reports with the community talking about what they're working on, what they want to vote on, etc.

Funny enough OSRS has more players playing it than 'retail runescape'.

The model for Classic+ already exists and it's working well over there at RuneScape.

I don't play it though so this is all 2nd hand knowledge about their situation. Maybe somebody with more direct experience can chime in.

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pan0phobik wrote:
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Is there a universal definition of 'classic+' ?

I can surmise what you guys mean but Im curious.
No, and that's the idea behind requiring a 75% supermajority vote by the community before developing any new content. We would all kind of make up the definition of Classic+ on the fly as we went. Lots of people even here have some really retarded ideas for what they want, but you'll see that any time somebody comes up with a special student idea they're not exactly getting broad support for their ideas. This mechanism serves to filter out the crap and only get the best ideas to the surface.

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Pippina wrote:
1 month ago
Gensei wrote:
1 month ago
What's the TL;DR on OSRS? I'm sure I've heard it talked about but unnamed, idk what the abbreviation means.

But I also heavily agree with everything you said. There's a tremendous amount of potential. I think it's foolish to consider WoW @ 1.12 to be a finished and fully-realized project.
Oldschool RuneScape. Similar situation to us, the playerbase started to decline over time so they launched a classic version of the game. They forked the game and started developing new content for their classic server after a while. I hear their developers put all new content up to a community vote and require a 75% supermajority before even starting development. They have something like weekly status reports with the community talking about what they're working on, what they want to vote on, etc.

Funny enough OSRS has more players playing it than 'retail runescape'.

The model for Classic+ already exists and it's working well over there at RuneScape.

I don't play it though so this is all 2nd hand knowledge about their situation. Maybe somebody with more direct experience can chime in.
ask yourself this - do you want modern wow players, the same players who asked for all those changes that ruined the current game, to be voting for changes?

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Instinctz wrote:
1 month ago

ask yourself this - do you want modern wow players, the same players who asked for all those changes that ruined the current game, to be voting for changes?
I mean there are questions about the administration of such a vote. Like if some dude has a level 10 on Classic but spends 99% of his time in retail, can he vote? There are issues on this front. But I don't think it's necessarily a bad approach. I am hesitant to leave things up to a popular vote. Thus far, we've not been particularly disappointed by Blizzard making executive decisions while surveying different avenues of community feedback. But maybe this dynamic of adding new content requires a different approach, something more akin to OSRS.

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Gensei wrote:
1 month ago
Instinctz wrote:
1 month ago

ask yourself this - do you want modern wow players, the same players who asked for all those changes that ruined the current game, to be voting for changes?
I mean there are questions about the administration of such a vote. Like if some dude has a level 10 on Classic but spends 99% of his time in retail, can he vote? There are issues on this front. But I don't think it's necessarily a bad approach. I am hesitant to leave things up to a popular vote. Thus far, we've not been particularly disappointed by Blizzard making executive decisions while surveying different avenues of community feedback. But maybe this dynamic of adding new content requires a different approach, something more akin to OSRS.
and that is my point. i wouldn't want to leave it up to a popular vote at all. even if it required a level 60. with a combined sub it wouldn't be hard for retail players to level a hunter or mage or lock to 60 to be able to vote.

lets put it this way - imagine the vote comes up for LFD the classic community is split 50/50 on it (which would mean no), but the retail players troll the vote and get it passed.
or on the other end.
blizzard puts forward the idea of releasing a level 60 version of karazhan - very popular raid. very popular suggestion for "post naxx content" throughout the pro classic + community.
retail players troll the vote and get it denied.

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Instinctz wrote:
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ask yourself this - do you want modern wow players, the same players who asked for all those changes that ruined the current game, to be voting for changes?
I think we're going to see a lot of tourists that are front loaded. Lots of people will swing by from retail and give it a shot. It's going to be a pretty big filter. People who don't like classic are going to slide back into retail and probably stay there.

I wouldn't even start voting on new ideas for another year or two. By then, I think that a majority of people still playing classic will be the people who are there for the classic gameplay, and people like ourselves will be the majority of players left. And I think the majority of players by then will be fairly united against the changes that ruined retail in the first place.

Like I mentioned, you can already see some pretty terrible suggestions for new game features and stuff here on our own forums. But how many of those have ever gotten traction and picked up as a good idea? I mean besides this one, since you're obviously not for this particular change :lol:

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Classic+ would require alot more money and time from Blizzard, so doubt it will happen. I'm fine with TBC as long as they remove flying.

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Instinctz wrote:
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and that is my point. i wouldn't want to leave it up to a popular vote at all. even if it required a level 60. with a combined sub it wouldn't be hard for retail players to level a hunter or mage or lock to 60 to be able to vote.

lets put it this way - imagine the vote comes up for LFD the classic community is split 50/50 on it (which would mean no), but the retail players troll the vote and get it passed.
or on the other end.
blizzard puts forward the idea of releasing a level 60 version of karazhan - very popular raid. very popular suggestion for "post naxx content" throughout the pro classic + community.
retail players troll the vote and get it denied.
Not popular vote. A 75% supermajority would be required to get anything done. And potentially you'd only let people into the vote who have either high level characters or a high amount of time /played in classic to keep griefers from outside influencing the game. I'd only want input from people actually invested in classic to be able to vote on what they want to get developed into a Classic+.

Getting to level 60 in classic is an investment. I can imagine a few players trying to be funny by getting to 60 and voting for stupid shit, but not many. That's some dedication to the craft of trolling. And even then, it's hard to get 75% of people to agree on anything. It's a pretty high bar to pass.

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Pippina wrote:
1 month ago
Instinctz wrote:
1 month ago
ask yourself this - do you want modern wow players, the same players who asked for all those changes that ruined the current game, to be voting for changes?
I think we're going to see a lot of tourists that are front loaded. Lots of people will swing by from retail and give it a shot. It's going to be a pretty big filter. People who don't like classic are going to slide back into retail and probably stay there.

I wouldn't even start voting on new ideas for another year or two. By then, I think that a majority of people still playing classic will be the people who are there for the classic gameplay, and people like ourselves will be the majority of players left. And I think the majority of players by then will be fairly united against the changes that ruined retail in the first place.

Like I mentioned, you can already see some pretty terrible suggestions for new game features and stuff here on our own forums. But how many of those have ever gotten traction and picked up as a good idea? I mean besides this one, since you're obviously not for this particular change :lol:
doesn't matter. even if they waited two years to implement it, would be easy for them to level up a character by then to cap and vote for changes just to troll.
and as said before - people have already said they would do as such.

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Erik wrote:
1 month ago
Classic+ would require alot more money and time from Blizzard, so doubt it will happen. I'm fine with TBC as long as they remove flying.
Sadly I think you're right and this is definitely the path of least resistance for them. And if I remember there are some zones in TBC which pretty much require flying mounts... you'd have to redesign TBC to remove them. So that's not happening either.

But that's part of why we'd need to start making noise now to push for Classic+. I think
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Pippina wrote:
1 month ago
Instinctz wrote:
1 month ago
and that is my point. i wouldn't want to leave it up to a popular vote at all. even if it required a level 60. with a combined sub it wouldn't be hard for retail players to level a hunter or mage or lock to 60 to be able to vote.

lets put it this way - imagine the vote comes up for LFD the classic community is split 50/50 on it (which would mean no), but the retail players troll the vote and get it passed.
or on the other end.
blizzard puts forward the idea of releasing a level 60 version of karazhan - very popular raid. very popular suggestion for "post naxx content" throughout the pro classic + community.
retail players troll the vote and get it denied.
Not popular vote. A 75% supermajority would be required to get anything done. And potentially you'd only let people into the vote who have either high level characters or a high amount of time /played in classic to keep griefers from outside influencing the game. I'd only want input from people actually invested in classic to be able to vote on what they want to get developed into a Classic+.

Getting to level 60 in classic is an investment. I can imagine a few players trying to be funny by getting to 60 and voting for stupid shit, but not many. That's some dedication to the craft of trolling. And even then, it's hard to get 75% of people to agree on anything. It's a pretty high bar to pass.
you haven't been paying attention the beta, its faster then it was in vanilla. people were logging much faster time then Joana to level 40.
and its not just about the 75%. you also have to look at it the other way.

say there is something the classic+ community Actually WANTS. like Karazhan at 60. all you need to do is troll the vote enough that the minority who aren't interested in it get enough votes to deny it.

so yeah. heavily against voted changes.

especially considering some of the changes Jagx "Forced" through on OSRS despite player voting no.

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Instinctz wrote:
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doesn't matter. even if they waited two years to implement it, would be easy for them to level up a character by then to cap and vote for changes just to troll.
and as said before - people have already said they would do as such.
If the playerbase of Classic is large enough for Blizzard to consider sustaining it with new content releases then the amount of players that would have to spend hundreds of hours of their lives to participate in trolling a content devlopment patch poll in any meaningful amount would be very significant. A hundred guys in a discord channel organizing cleave groups to get some 60's to join a poll isn't going to matter if you've got a playerbase with 100,000+ players.

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Instinctz wrote:
1 month ago
you haven't been paying attention the beta, its faster then it was in vanilla. people were logging much faster time then Joana to level 40.
and its not just about the 75%. you also have to look at it the other way.

say there is something the classic+ community Actually WANTS. like Karazhan at 60. all you need to do is troll the vote enough that the minority who aren't interested in it get enough votes to deny it.

so yeah. heavily against voted changes.

especially considering some of the changes Jagx "Forced" through on OSRS despite player voting no.
You're still looking at the neighborhood of 100 hours to get to 60. For a very fast /played time to 60. That's some serious commitment. I'm sure there would be some that would do it anyway. I grew up on /b/. I get trolling raids, they're fun. But again, the amount of people who would have to commit to this to have any substantial impact on a vote to a playerbase large enough for Blizzard to consider adding content seems unrealistic.

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Pippina wrote:
1 month ago
Instinctz wrote:
1 month ago
you haven't been paying attention the beta, its faster then it was in vanilla. people were logging much faster time then Joana to level 40.
and its not just about the 75%. you also have to look at it the other way.

say there is something the classic+ community Actually WANTS. like Karazhan at 60. all you need to do is troll the vote enough that the minority who aren't interested in it get enough votes to deny it.

so yeah. heavily against voted changes.

especially considering some of the changes Jagx "Forced" through on OSRS despite player voting no.
You're still looking at the neighborhood of 100 hours to get to 60. For a very fast /played time to 60. That's some serious commitment. I'm sure there would be some that would do it anyway. I grew up on /b/. I get trolling raids, they're fun. But again, the amount of people who would have to commit to this to have any substantial impact on a vote to a playerbase large enough for Blizzard to consider adding content seems unrealistic.
100 hours isn't much by mmo standards...heck it isn't much by some rpg standards.

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Gensei wrote:
1 month ago
Instinctz wrote:
1 month ago

ask yourself this - do you want modern wow players, the same players who asked for all those changes that ruined the current game, to be voting for changes?
I mean there are questions about the administration of such a vote. Like if some dude has a level 10 on Classic but spends 99% of his time in retail, can he vote? There are issues on this front. But I don't think it's necessarily a bad approach. I am hesitant to leave things up to a popular vote. Thus far, we've not been particularly disappointed by Blizzard making executive decisions while surveying different avenues of community feedback. But maybe this dynamic of adding new content requires a different approach, something more akin to OSRS.
I don't think anyone mentioned it, but in OSRS you can only vote if you're a member with a total level of 300 or above and with a minimum total play-time of 25 hours can participate. That way people who aren't really playing osrs much can vote.

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Instinctz wrote:
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100 hours isn't much by mmo standards...heck it isn't much by some rpg standards.
Which is why I agree there will be some people who do it. But again, Blizzard wouldn't consider doing any future development for Classic unless the playerbase was large enough to support it. The amount of people who would have to commit to a 100+ hour troll job for the lulz to impact our content supermajority votes in any meaningful manner would be enormous.

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