I know we all have different reasons for thinking that WoW is screwed up now. For some people it's "muh social aspect" and how LFD took all the fun out of spamming trade chat for 3 hours looking for a healer. For some people, it was the massive content changes in the Shattering. Some people have an irrational hatred of flying mounts, or think the Horde shouldn't be allowed to have a "pretty" race, or something something alliance shamans and horde paladins.

But these are all superficial complaints compared to the real problems and the real reasons why everything sucks now: the slow erosion of the game's internal logic. I already provided one example in a separate thread, noting that the fastest route from point A to point B can now involve going halfway to your destination, then backtracking to your starting continent, then going to a different planet, then backtracking to your starting planet. Now I'll provide some more examples:

1) From Classic through MoP, professions were basically "sane". Making gear for level 85-90 players, or harvesting nodes in level 85-90 zones, required more levels in a profession than making gear for level 80-85 players or harvesting nodes in level 80-85 zones, which in turn required more levels than level 70-80 players and zones, and so on. And access to higher profession levels was always purchased in 75-level increments. Then along comes WoD and you still need 600 levels in Blacksmithing to make gear for level 90 players, but gear for level 91 players can be made by a level 1 blacksmith... and there were 100 levels of Wod blacksmithing instead of 75. It was insane and retarded and it made no sense. BfA tried to "fix" this problem by applying it to all expansions, but we're still stuck with a system where gear for level 120 characters is easier to craft than gear for level 60 characters.

2) From Classic through WoD, shamans and hunters started out wearing leather, and could upgrade to mail at level 40, while warriors and paladins started out with mail and could upgrade to plate at level 40. All gear that could possibly drop in the game, all of the loot tables for all of the level 1-39 monsters, all of the rewards for level 1-39 quests, etc., were all based on this system, and on the assumption that from levels 1 through 39, certain armor types would not be needed and certain stats would not be needed on certain armor types. Then along comes Legion and suddenly shamans and hunters now start out using mail and warriors and paladins start out using plate. Heirlooms and quest rewards were altered to compensate, but guess what Blizzard forgot. That's right... they forgot all about world and dungeon drops. To my knowledge, there are still no plate items below level 40 except for the new quest rewards.

3) I'm currently leveling a resto shaman by spamming dungeon finder. I'm going to see if I can get her up to 110 before Classic drops. She just passed level 85. Now here's the funny part: at level 85, she could queue for normal Panda dungeons, normal Cat dungeons, Heroic cat dungeons, and Heroic Hour of Twilight dungeons. I did manage to squeeze in a single Hour of Twilight dungeon for shits and giggles. But as soon as she dinged 86, she was restricted to normal MoP and normal cat dungeons. She is too high-level for Heroic cat dungeons but not for Normal cat dungeons. This is the exact opposite of how heroic dungeons are supposed to work.

4) remember when the differences between heirlooms weren't just cosmetic? Remember when the Stained Shadowcraft set was agility leather, and therefore for rogues, while the preened ironfeather set was intellect leather and therefore for druids? Remember when the Charmed Ancient Bone Bow was the PvE hunter weapon, and the Upgraded Dwarven Hand Cannon was the PvP hunter weapon? Remember when there was a REASON for these to be different items, before some idiot decided that every item's stats should magically change based on the class and spec of whoever was using it?

Basically, when WoW was first designed, everything in it was designed with at least some minimal degree of regard for how everything else in the game worked. Everything was designed around a singular set of assumptions. As expansions have progressed, systems have gotten removed and replaced without regard for how they affect (or are affected by) the bigger picture, and as a result, nothing makes sense anymore. The game has become insane. This is the real problem. Not "ermagherd flying mounts ruined world PvP", or "kung fu pandas are stupid", or "WoD didn't have enough raid tiers" or "I hate grinding for azerite", but total unraveling of the basic logic on which the whole game is built. While many other complaints are lodged only by people who've been playing for a long time, this disintegration of the game's logic is readily apparent even to people who didn't start playing until yesterday.

It's also quite easy to notice that the vast majority of this unraveling occurred in the WoD prepatch or later. For all of their faults, the first four expansions were at least sane... mostly. There are minor exceptions. For example, Cataclysm deserves criticism for its failure to bring flying to the Belf and Draenei starting zones, thereby underscoring, rather than correcting, their lack of proper integration into the old world. A lot of weapons that were obviously intended to be used as stat sticks (like strength crossbows) were left high and dry by MoP's removal of the ranged/relic slot. But little oversights like these were nothing compared to the avalanche of madness that we got from WoD onward.

Anyway it's 1:30 AM and the entire pot of coffee that I drank today is starting to wear off so here's a meme, goodnight.

Blizzards gear progression through expansion packs was too drastic and honestly turned me off. From 60-61 the gear should have been a gradual increase without consideration for tier gear. Gear drops from vanilla should have had some use in tbc expansion, but it seemed like a few quests in in hellfire peninsula and everything was simply outdated and easily replaced.

Undeadlock wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Blizzards gear progression through expansion packs was too drastic and honestly turned me off. From 60-61 the gear should have been a gradual increase without consideration for tier gear. Gear drops from vanilla should have had some use in tbc expansion, but it seemed like a few quests in in hellfire peninsula and everything was simply outdated and easily replaced.

Players that had t3 only replaced that in Kara though.

I think the problem of not upgrading content to the new game logic was there from the very beginning. Ammo pouch for hunters in the beginning gave you a buff on the ranged attack speed. In patch 3.1 this logic was removed, but for at least two expansions (dunno from MOP onwards) all the pouch and quiver were still in game, but useless. Why would you waste a bag space for a bag with no advantages? And this made some quest rewards, some crafted item etc. useless.

Samaraner wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Undeadlock wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Blizzards gear progression through expansion packs was too drastic and honestly turned me off. From 60-61 the gear should have been a gradual increase without consideration for tier gear. Gear drops from vanilla should have had some use in tbc expansion, but it seemed like a few quests in in hellfire peninsula and everything was simply outdated and easily replaced.

Players that had t3 only replaced that in Kara though.

Which doesnt sound bad, until you realize your sentence can also be rewritten as "The gear I worked to obtain trough tireless efforts showing up and breaking my back for the guild for the past two years lasted a whole two weeks into the expansion before I replaced it"

Some good points made here but I’d like to add, without going into specifics, I think that the project was simply a victim of its own success.

Like any successful IP, the huge opportunity to make money wasn’t ignored by Blizzard.

Good points but it's a lot of words just to say retail sucks. Plus all those things you mentioned that you say don't really matter, do matter. They added to the slow addition of the instant gratification platform the game has become. My fear is the instant grat will seep back in and ruin it once again. I'll give it a year before they can't leave it alone and muck it all up and chase us off again never to return. It's inevitable because most folks can't just leave a good thing alone.

I agree with @teebling , your overarching point is still just a symptom of bureaucratic dysfunction over at Blizzard from them having been acquired by Activision. Priorities shifted over at the office ever since then — one of the original lead designers Mark Kern recently put out a long tweet about it:

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1162 ... 70368.html

I think people are sweating the details right now because they want to decide what the original spirit of the game was and what can be genuinely improved despite the dogma of the #nochanges mob.

If Kevin Jordan isn't spewing bullshit over on his stream then in many ways the spirit of WoW was him; he was the original impetus for the two faction system when everyone else at Blizzard wanted a PvE-centric one-faction experience like Everquest, he was the lead class designer who branched the classes into three distinct specs and decided which were useful in raids and how they'd be geared.

Pretty interesting points, and nice explanation at the link from@Lendryn .

I also think classic was a big experiment on different shades of gratification to keep you invested and it worked out as we know.

I mean while classic mostly get praised as a 'delayed gratification' machine, people tend to forget that a lot of activity (questing, crafting and even casting big spells) is more like instant gratification / satisfaction. And that is also why it's so addictive and great and I haven't even tapped in the social aspect.

teebling wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Some good points made here but I’d like to add, without going into specifics, I think that the project was simply a victim of its own success.

Like any successful IP, the huge opportunity to make money wasn’t ignored by Blizzard.

Wise words indeed.

teebling wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Some good points made here but I’d like to add, without going into specifics, I think that the project was simply a victim of its own success.

Like any successful IP, the huge opportunity to make money wasn’t ignored by Blizzard.

This, and that most bad ideas aren't discernibly bad ideas until you have a few years of hindsight. Like the semi-popular perspective that flying mounts were an enormous detriment to the game is still pretty new. That only became mainstream among players in MoP/WoD era. There are plenty of other examples that didn't seem like bad ideas at the time.

FTHforever wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Pretty interesting points, and nice explanation at the link from@Lendryn .

I also think classic was a big experiment on different shades of gratification to keep you invested and it worked out as we know.

I mean while classic mostly get praised as a 'delayed gratification' machine, people tend to forget that a lot of activity (questing, crafting and even casting big spells) is more like instant gratification / satisfaction. And that is also why it's so addictive and great and I haven't even tapped in the social aspect.

I agree greatly with you. It seems like Blizzard (and other companies) feel as though players need fast, equal gratifications to keep a user experience the same. However, it's the hard and more demanding grinds that appeal heavily to me in a game like Classic WoW. Items like Sulfuras are what make the game so cool to me. You have to go through so much but the payoff is so great. The vast majority of players won't get this item, and to me that's okay. That's what makes an MMO great imo. But now we see most modern games abandoning that for easy, equal victories.

push button, receive dungeon

push button, receive raid

things were more meaningful when they took longer and were more difficult to get. Spamming world chat for hours trying to find a tank sucked on the surface but damn well meant that group meant more to you when you got it.

I prefer the slower pace of the original game. I don't like the fast pace of the modern game. Fine for some people, but it's not for me.

These aren't superficial complaints for me.

teebling wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Some good points made here but I’d like to add, without going into specifics, I think that the project was simply a victim of its own success.

Like any successful IP, the huge opportunity to make money wasn’t ignored by Blizzard.

Wasn’t ignored by Activision-Blizzard.

People forget Blizzard is not an independent studio; it’s never been. And while they were riding the success wave i imagine they had loads of leeway to negotiate for artistic freedoms.

The moment they stopped reaching targets, however, you get cash shop, attempts at 6-month subscription grabs... mobile games...

Pippina wrote: ↑

5 years ago

things were more meaningful when they took longer and were more difficult to get. Spamming world chat for hours trying to find a tank sucked on the surface but damn well meant that group meant more to you when you got it.

I prefer the slower pace of the original game. I don't like the fast pace of the modern game. Fine for some people, but it's not for me.

These aren't superficial complaints for me.

Agreed. Once you found that healer or that tank, you were likely to friend them and run dungeons together in the future as well. Perhaps they introduced you to their guild, or vice versa. Maybe you joined their Ventrilo server to shoot the shit and got to know each other well. Many of my friendships started within the digital confines of WoW and thereafter crossed into real life.

Although OP has some good points, he started off by flippantly dismissing the most prominent criticisms of WoW expansions (LFG, flying mounts) without attempting to address them. I believe those QoL changes did more to harm the game than any of the points OP raised.

fendor wrote: ↑

5 years ago

I think the problem of not upgrading content to the new game logic was there from the very beginning. Ammo pouch for hunters in the beginning gave you a buff on the ranged attack speed. In patch 3.1 this logic was removed, but for at least two expansions (dunno from MOP onwards) all the pouch and quiver were still in game, but useless. Why would you waste a bag space for a bag with no advantages? And this made some quest rewards, some crafted item etc. useless.

Hunter ammo did not exist in Cataclysm. I know because I mained a hunter during that time.

Zacheous wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Good points but it's a lot of words just to say retail sucks.

It's a lot of words to say "retail sucks for very different and more important reasons than you think"

Lendryn wrote: ↑

5 years ago

I agree with @teebling , your overarching point is still just a symptom of bureaucratic dysfunction over at Blizzard from them having been acquired by Activision. Priorities shifted over at the office ever since then — one of the original lead designers Mark Kern recently put out a long tweet about it:

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1162 ... 70368.html

Well, that's just a rant about "casualization". Appealing to casual players isn't necessarily a bad thing. What's bad is sacrificing internal consistency and sanity on the altar of casualization.

Gensei wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Like the general consensus that flying mounts were an enormous detriment to the game is still pretty new.

No such consensus exists.

JollyResolve6 wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Most of the issues you raised have very little impact on the game outside of the levelling experience, which has become a smaller and smaller part of the game as time goes on.

That is a problem in and of itself... the attitude of "f*ck old content, only the newest expansion matters, buy a level boost so you can skip the past 13 years of content and go straight to the newest stuff, we changed professions so you can get them to max level using only materials from the new expansion, blah blah blah..." and as much as I love MoP, I have to admit that Mop and its "nuggets" and ghost iron training recipes were what really got the ball rolling on that. Miners and blacksmiths should have to spend 5 hours farming cobalt in Borean Tundra like I did. Same goes for cooking. If you want to powerlevel cooking, you should have to farm scorpid stingers and jaggal clam meat and shit like I did, not just buy reagents from a panda. The one exception is Thanksgiving. You are allowed to powerlevel your cooking without any effort if you wait until Thanksgiving to do it, and even then, you can't go past 300.

Vlostek wrote: ↑

5 years ago

attempts at 6-month subscription grabs...

I'm so glad I didn't get suckered into that. I got Mimiron's Head a few months later. F*ck your flying pirate ship lol.

Black Monarch wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Well, that's just a rant about "casualization". Appealing to casual players isn't necessarily a bad thing. What's bad is sacrificing internal consistency and sanity on the altar of casualization.

If retail were super casual but still consistent about it I probably still wouldn't play it. That profile must fit a lot of modern MMOs out there.

TBC was the last pure and legendary expansion

Edit: I had only glazed the OP's post before writing this, I thought it was about "how the game became more casual in time". Reading it again I now realize my response is not 100% related to his points.. sorry I'll leave it here anyway in case someone wants to contribute.

Sometimes I wonder whether Vanilla wow at its time was also seen as a "step-down" as an MMO genre.

It is no wonder that WoW was (and still is) the #1 most popular MMO of all times. That much is not an opinion, but a fact.
However if you look at the development of WoW, it was pretty much created to be casual / beginner friendly Everquest rival.

• Games like EQ and Ultima Online had harsh penalties for dying, XP/level loss, loss of items, etc. Blizzard actually toyed with XP loss during very early stages of WoW, but later it removed it for the sake of accessibility.
• The "grind" in Vanilla WoW is actually not that bad compared to other MMO's of its time. In todays standards Vanilla grind is mind-boggingly long of course, but back then WoW was pretty much relaxed. With minimal grind, you had quests that could carry you from 1 to 60 (minus some specific levels where you could just run out of quests). Getting a skill to max level also took considerably less time compared to say any given skill in Ultima Online.
• WoW was extremely beginner friendly. Now I never actually played EQ, but I can tell you that old school Ultima Online in todays standards probably requires tons of out of game help explaining what skills are, how reagents work, how battle works, how dying works, etc. Now this doesn't mean that everything in Vanilla WoW was explained ingame, or that noone used out-of-game help. But much of the information you could find outside of the game was for hardcore things such as damage / threat calculations.
• Having dungeons instanced is not just a design choice due to technical limitations. Instanced dungeons were designed to be a pvp-free, closed environments. People outside of an instance could not mess with your progress, which was not the case of Ultima Online (not sure about EQ).
• If you think vanilla shamans had tons of spells/totems, wait till you see the list of Ultima Online abilities/spells. Yikes.

The list goes on and on.

What I mean to say is, here in Barrens chat we have a closed ecosystem of (predominantly) old school WoW fans. I think it's fair to say that a good deal of us do not like the current Retail WoW due to many design choices (flying, LFR, pruning of abilities, lack of RP elements). However I wonder how the "actual old school" MUD / EQ & UO fans originally reacted to the design choices of Vanilla WoW. I don't have proof, but I can assume that there would be some people who thought Vanilla to be way too easy, and probably doomsayers would be telling on IRC channels that WoW would make the entire MMO genre a casual, weak gaming experience. Similar to what we have been saying for the recent WoW expansions.

Almost all the changes that Blizzard introduced has been in favor of more casual gameplay. So probably in their mind, they have been doing what they always did; making the game more accessible to a wider audience.

I mean there are probably some 13 year old gamers who plays current WoW, who does not visit forums or other communities (do kids use forums these days even?), thinks that the current WoW is a masterpiece and Vanilla is some useless time wasting grind-fest; because his or her MMO experience would be mainly the recent WoW expansions.

Is this an endless cycle, I wonder? Similar to "back in muh day" old folks who youngsters just shrug, will the Vanilla WoW people be seen as such in 10 - 20 years...?

Disclaimer: I detest current WoW and bought a PC specifically to play Classic. Just so you get where I'm coming from.

Altoholic wrote: ↑

5 years ago

TBC was the last pure and legendary expansion

I sometimes say "BC was the only real expansion and MoP was the last sane expansion". I've already explained what I mean by sane expansion, but what do I mean by a real expansion? A real expansion should, as the name implies, expand the game, not just move stuff around, replace stuff, or expand the game in some ways while contracting it in others. Every other expansion has removed significant amounts of content, starting with the removal of Old Naxx and Old Onyxia, and all of the loot that drops from them, in Wrath of the Lich King. BC was the exception; the only expansion that did nothing but expand the game. It was the only expansion that cost us nothing. One of the major reasons why I give MoP high marks is that it made Tier 3 armor available again via the BMAH, partially undoing Wrath's big mistake.

The end image makes your argument 500x worse to the point where I don't even care to read it. You made so many argument points but then ended it with some MsPaint shit. :(

Swans wrote: ↑

5 years ago

The end image makes your argument 500x worse to the point where I don't even care to read it. You made so many argument points but then ended it with some MsPaint shit. :(

You are very nice.

JollyResolve6 wrote: ↑

5 years ago

I agree that the decline of world cohesion has had a negative impact on the game, but I think a lot of the issues you're brushing off as superficial are actually far more significant problems.

So much this. Appears to be written by someone who doesnt quite understand the implications of those "superficial" issues and instead spends time highlighting inconsistencies with the game long after it was ruined.

I do not think that the problem has been the expansions, the flying mounts, the lfg, the pokemons, the pandas or any other addition that you can think that has destroyed the game. Each of us has enjoyed some of these changes or many of them. The problem is all those characteristics together, that desire to want to make everyone happy.
I think that in the case of a video game, as in the cinema or music, when the goal is to try to cover as much public as possible, it implies a loss of style, identity, authenticity. In the simple there is much beauty.
Wow began as a beautiful young woman with natural lips and breasts, and has become over time a gigantic and monstrous Frankestein. Maybe if you look at his feet or eyes you think they are lovely, but when you walk away and see it completely it is scary... and a little sad.

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

5 years ago

So much this. Appears to be written by someone who doesnt quite understand the implications of those "superficial" issues and instead spends time highlighting inconsistencies with the game long after it was ruined.

I understand the ALLEGED implications. I've been debating them for years. Some of them have more credibility than others.