Rogue Subtlety
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US Grobbulus
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3 weeks ago (1.13.2)
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Man this thread sure has been derailed with all these legitimate questions and information about paladins. I thought this was supposed to be a neverending battle of wills between different personalities on the forum.

Telvaine - Night Elf Hunter
Vennrick - Human Warrior
Keatts- Human Rogue

Grobbulus - US
Paladin Protection
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3 weeks ago (1.13.2)
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capo wrote:
3 weeks ago
Holyfrog wrote:
4 weeks ago
Absolutely. For dungeons its an amazing tool if you keep your defense relatively low so you get consistently crit. Its going to hasten your attacks and provide you with larger returns on your mana regeneration.

For raids it really depends on your role. If you are primarily tanking something where you can use Greater Kings to hold aggro then you want as much defense as possible, and Anticipation is pretty ok for that since you afford the points when you dont have Reckoning.

I dont use Anticipation for raids myself and instead just go with Reckoning so its more comfy to do 5man and solo. Dont feel like the extra defense has been necessary as Im never really in danger of dying in the current content with just 380.
Can you elaborate as for why Reckoning is so good? The way it works is that it just resets your swing timer and let's you potentially hit faster right? How often do you actually get crit by mobs in dungeons and in raids as a 4th support tank?

What do you think about the Deflection talent? Good or not? My logic would be not to take it, as I want to get hit and not parry a lot?
Sure. I think reckoning is good for 5man dungeons because I dont really use a lot of defense. When I tank dungeons I only pick about 30-40 defense to get some avoidance and to even out the worst of the spikes from crit. Instead I favor stacking stamina, and I focus on keeping up a high armor by using T1/T2 items when I have those available, or just 2 set Valor + Lightforge and some of the high armor plate items if I dont have access to tier sets.

Mobs in Classic dungeons do not really do a lot of damage. So I realized early you could pull two packs at a time in most of the dungeons, and in lower level dungeons like BRD you can even pull 3-4 packs at a time. This will greatly increase the frequency of which you get crit, and in turn lead to more reckoning procs.

I dont like using the word "reset your swingtimer", because thats not really whats happening. A swingtimer reset would be something like if you played a Warrior, had a 4 second attackspeed with two second remaining on the timer, then used your ability Slam, then your next auto attack would "reset" and occur in the next 4 seconds.
Instead with Reckoning, as long as you have autoattack active, getting crit with hasten your attack and make your next attack occur instantly. Its not a reset. With how reckoning worked on private servers where it stored attacks until next time you swung, it would actually be possible to cap charges if you pulled enough mobs, meaning any additional crits beyind the first 4 before your next swing would be wasted and not lead to reckoning procs.
With Classic reckoning, if you are tanking a MASSIVE amount of mobs, say 4 packs in BRD you may end up attacking really really fast instead which leads to you restoring a huge amount of mana if you happen to have Judgement of Wisdom up on the target, or Seal of Wisdom active.

In a raid I dont think Reckoning is very good. Could be nice in Suppression Room in BWL if your guild keeps a high pace and you dont get a lot of time to drink. For bosses it barely does anything as you want to have a high amount of defense for those.

As for Deflection. Parry is not just defensive, but its also offensive as it hastens your swingtimer by 40% of the remaining time of the swing (simple explanation)
Parry also never replace a Block which is your main source of reflective threat so by parrying the attack you really only lose out on the return damage you would have gotten from Retribution Aura. It's not a huge loss when it means you get a hastened attack leading to more TPS from Seal of Righteousness and more mana restored from Judgement of Wisdom.

   capo
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3 weeks ago (1.13.2)
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Thanks man, such a great answer! Is Deflection a talent that you view as an absolute must or is it more of a nice to have option to increase your survivability?

Paladin Protection
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3 weeks ago (1.13.2)
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It's not a must but 4% additional Parry (Cant get the talents to get 5% if you want both Consecration and Holy Shield) is pretty strong to add on top of your other avoidance from gear.

   capo
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3 weeks ago (1.13.2)
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Holyfrog wrote:
1 month ago
Another update. Today we tried to switch to the other Garr strategy in order to save some time. Previous weeks we have cleared everything before going back to Garr in order to not lose world buffs, but I was fairly confident we could do Garr with just offtanking the adds and killing the boss first.

Went very well. I was a bit concerned with how much damage I would take. But since we dont have a Warrior tank with Force Reactive disk yet, I gave it a shot. Requested lay on hands before the pull and used armor potions. Worked like a charm, and we got the boss down easily.

Is this one single paladin on all of the adds?

Would it be possible with a blue shield?

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3 weeks ago (1.13.2)
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How is mana per five for tanking?

What stats should you go for and what should you avoid?

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3 weeks ago (1.13.2)
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@Holyfrog: Have you successfully tanked Dire Maul and LBRS/UBRS pre-60?

Paladin Protection
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3 weeks ago (1.13.2)
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Pre 60? No. But I have tanked all the 5mans succsessfully. I think I might have done a couple LBRS before I hit 60 though.

@Iban Yeah, you could probably pull that off with a blue shield as well without a problem. They really did not hit too hard with Stoneshield Pot and Lay on Hands active. Just make sure you have enough health because the damage you take can be a bit spiky. I assigned two healers to heal the tank on Garr and had everyone else heal me and it was fine. Also make sure you get dispelled insantly.

Mp5 for tanking is not too great. You get some for free on Deathbone but otherwise the value you get from it is not large enough to use it over other items for any other slot.

Paladin Protection
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3 weeks ago (1.13.2)
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Some sad news that I had my guild test on Monday. It's been speculated that Consecration might take up a debuff slot, and I was able to get my guild to run the test on that in Phase 1 Onyxia.

What happens is that using Consecration will remove other debuff, and the priority for Consecration is high enough that it will remove somewhat important debuffs such as Winters Chill from the boss. Hoping this might be a bug, and plenty of people have submitted bugreports, but in case its not actually a bug it means that Paladins, and especially Retpaladins got a lot less viable for raiding all of a sudden.

Protection will probably be fine, as their role in raids allow for the usage of Consecration as long as you stick to either trash, adds, or bosses where you can either rely on Greater Kings alone, or use Consecration to build up threat while the raid is busy dealing with some other target first.

In any case, inform your guilds, as Holy Paladins might be putting up Consecration to "help out" when they dont have targets to heal, and that actually lowers the dps of the raid if debuffs are optimized.

   Stfuppercut teebling Selexin capo vanillalad
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3 weeks ago (1.13.2)
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Isn't conc just good for snap aggro anyway, and you spam judgement of righteousness otherwise?

Druid Feral
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3 weeks ago (1.13.2)
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@IBAN were you a warrior tank back in vanilla in the valour legion guild?

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2 weeks ago (1.13.2)
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Forsakenone wrote:
3 weeks ago
@IBAN were you a warrior tank back in vanilla in the valour legion guild?
woah! yes! And you were the undead mage!

I have a bunch of accounts now, some on US and some in Europe, but been raiding with the Americans recently as holy paladin

Just yesterday I was actually at Shattrath in MC, which we do now by chugging an arcane protection potion and nuking him down, and I remember Tyneen's voice from all those years ago and how complicated our strats used to be back in Vanilla! And all the banter and jokes which would happen during our raiding. Very memorable community back then. And so many years are going by...

I also saw Tahra three months ago on the European forums! He still plays retail and considers it superior, so it wasn't a friendly exchange. but I actually saw Sin (Chohag) reply just before the thread was deleted. Very cool stuff. Those were special days

Badlands
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2 weeks ago (1.13.2)
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Holyfrog wrote:
3 weeks ago
What happens is that using Consecration will remove other debuff, and the priority for Consecration is high enough that it will remove somewhat important debuffs such as Winters Chill from the boss. Hoping this might be a bug, and plenty of people have submitted bugreports, but in case its not actually a bug it means that Paladins, and especially Retpaladins got a lot less viable for raiding all of a sudden.
I hope it gets fixed that sucks :(

            
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Elwynn Forest
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2 weeks ago (1.13.2)
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They can definitely put down a lot of threat, but the lack of a taunt ability makes it very hard to regain aggro if you lose it.

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2 weeks ago (1.13.2)
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Paladins have no Taunt and are entirely dependant on mana. Once they OOM it means no more agro

Paladin Protection
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2 weeks ago (1.13.2)
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Yeah, losing aggro on taunt immune bosses usually is pretty hard to get back.
The idea is to not lose aggro, so don't lose aggro and you'll be fine.

We don't lose aggro when we go oom. There are also things called Mp5, Mana pots, Dark/demonic runes, seal/judge of wisdom and innervate in the game. It's weird honestly. But lets ignore all that.

Appreciate the copy and paste MMOChampion rhetoric though.

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2 weeks ago (1.13.2)
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Caspus wrote:
2 weeks ago
Yeah, losing aggro on taunt immune bosses usually is pretty hard to get back.
The idea is to not lose aggro, so don't lose aggro and you'll be fine.
While their comments are sort of lazy and unproductive I will agree with them. This is one of my primary reservations to the prot paladin. You depend on the group understanding your short-comings and accommodating them. If we're being honest, most players are pretty bad, and a feral druid or a warrior can tank in spite of others being bad, where as a prot paladin is sort of at the mercy of the group. This is simply the reality of a prot paladin. In a strong group that accomodates the prot pally, prot paladin tanking can work. In an awful group, things can spiral very quickly. But the strong group would do well regardless of what tank they brought because they are strong and the weak group could be salvaged with a different tank.

g0bledyg00k wrote:
1 week ago
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Paladin Protection
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2 weeks ago (1.13.2)
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I agree with the group dynamic being strong or weak to a degree but I've found myself carrying raids quite a lot honestly. With Blessing of Kings being a meta which is confirmed to not be a bug; threat is a non-issue. I'd purely out-threat warrior tanks any time of the day. Ontop of that this makes it kind of a soft-taunt. If you're MTing or hugging threat you can steal threat through 1-3 blessing casts easily which is fine overall for raiding. So taunt swap fights are not issues anymore which was always my main concern tanking as a paladin.

Gear is the only issue in my eyes. It is 100% easier to gear as a warrior, no questions asked. Prot paladins take more dedication to perfecting their gear and obtaining certain pieces from each raid in order to not feel you're lagging behind. Pre-BIS along side with Dark Iron ring/Shield and ony trinket will do just fine in BWL progression. BWL will be a boost in gear and AQ40 will rocket you. But it's a lot of patience.

Prot paladins are always a casual guild's tank. Or casual guilds that call themselves "Semi-Hardcore". But that being said I've been having zero issue carrying my own weight and more throughout the couple MC's and Ony's ive maintanked so far. (Shazz, a boss I gave up on trying to tank on private servers, i'm now tanking with zero effort and easily "taunting" him every blink through King spam).

   Pippina
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2 weeks ago (1.13.2)
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four screenshots from today's raid.
Image
Image
Image
Image

   Holyfrog Aoth
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